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EDL
02-18-2000, 12:37 PM
I was just curious to what other people use for bases for patios & walks. I use stone dust for everything, I tried reclaimed concrete a few times, but to much junk mixed in with it. Thanks for the info

ConcreteChris
02-18-2000, 05:53 PM
What you should be using is crushed stones (3/4&quot; stone down to fines). This is the proper base material by industry specifications (ICPI, AASHTO, NCMA...). This base material when installed properly will resist any movement due to freeze thaw, will resist rutting on driveways and will hold up forever. Interesting note this is the same base that many states specify for use under paved roads ( although they use substantially thicker applications ). This material compacts well (able to achieve 95% of modified proctor density and has an ASTM specification). This mean that everytime you purchase base material you know that you are getting consistent quality ( if you doubt the quality ask to see the sieve analysis, any reputable quarry will have this available).<br>Typical base thickness for a patio or walkway is 4&quot;, compacted in 2&quot; lifts using a vibratory plate compactor (at least 5,000 lbs force).<br>Why you shouldn't use stone dust! Stone dust does not have any specification so you have no way of knowing if your base is consistent between loads or on different jobs. If you provide a warranty of your work (minimum of five years for pavers) you had better know that your base is done properly and with consistent materials. In addition to this stonedust also contains a high percentage of very fine material which holds on to moisture much like a high clay content soil. This will cause shifting and &quot;pumping&quot; on many applications. For more information on this subject please go to www.icpi.org or www.belgardhardscapes.com (view the installation guide that is available)<br>If you are wondering why you should listen to me it is because I train companies on the proper installation of pavers and how to improve their efficiency. I have trained dozens of companies to become both better and more efficient. I am also ICPI certified in the sales and marketing of Interlocking Concrete Pavers.

Lanelle
02-18-2000, 08:32 PM
EDL<br>Chris DEFINITELY knows what he's talking about. If you use the proper base materials and install methods you can do a quality job with very few call-backs for problems and make good $$.<br>If you're wondering why that technical stuff is so important, its because putting in the base properly is 70% of the job and the most critical part of the install. It doesn't matter how pretty the surface is if the base fails and you can't make money on the day you have to go back and re-install that patio for an unhappy customer.<p>----------<br>Lanelle<br>

Stonehenge
02-18-2000, 10:56 PM
EDL - This is a bit of a 'nuts and bolts' explanation on the differences in the stone you use and the stone reccommended to you. I did a job in New York state about 10 years ago, and being unfamiliar with the territory (I grew up in Michigan, operate a hardscape/softscape business in Wisconsin), I used what was reccommended to me, which was stone dust. If you hold stone dust in your hand and look at it, it isn't very angular. It's more like big black grains of sand. In Metro Detroit (Michigan) (at least this was true about seven years ago) foundry or 'slag' sand was the overwhelming choice. It's more angular, holds together well, but it's clearly not a good choice now, or at best a risky one. Foundry sands have levels of Cadmium and Lead in them. These two elements cause all kinds of biological problems, but only when their levels are too high. So how can you be sure? You have to contact the foundry the slag comes from every few months and get their test results to be sure the slag is safe. Way too much hassle, especially for something that could harm the children of your customers. In Wisconsin we have huge quantities of limestone. That's what my company uses. This stone is very angular. The reason you want angularity is because the individual stones lock together better and resist movement better than non-angular stones do (ever walk on a beach? The grains are very round, or non-angular. The sand squishes right out under your feet, doesn't it? Same thing with stone dust, over time. And don't get me started on the use of sand over that stone base). Check your local quarries for what they supply for road base. It'll be called something like crusher run, or 3/4- (pronounced three-quarter minus). Depending on what part of the country you live in (I'm guessing East Coast), the base thickness will vary - if you live in Texas, an inch will likely do, for pedestrian traffic. In my neck of the woods, AASHTO specs 4&quot; of stone, but I use 6&quot;, for two reasons: 1) better prepared base, and 2) customers will be impressed. In talking this issue over with a few civil engineers (you could do the same where you live), anything over 4&quot;, for PEDESTRIAN traffic, isn't necessary. For work I install, of that 6&quot;, about 4-5&quot; is 3/4-, the rest is limestone screenings (from about 1/4 down to dust). If you have more questions (and don't live in Wisconsin, i.e. competition of mine), let me know. I started paving with brick in 1985, and have laid a few square feet.

SLSNursery
02-18-2000, 11:35 PM
First some definitions from my area:<br>3/4&quot; Crushed stone - trap rock crushed to 3/4&quot; size, no fines.<p>3/4&quot; Processed stone - trap rock crushed to 3/4&quot; including fines.<p>Stone Dust - the fines as mentioned above.<p>Stone Sand - the fines from crushed stone that is softer than trap rock.<p>What we call stone dust here in CT is the same as the fines you would have in 3/4&quot; processed stone (as opposed to 3/4&quot; clean). The stone is called trap rock, and seems to work fine since it is hard and drains well. Depending upon the excavation we use a base of compacted crushed stone, then processed stone with the final layer of stone dust put on top (about 2&quot;) and compacted. This is similar to road base in my judgement, and the stone dust we stock is very consistent. We use it because its recommended to us by paver distributors. Some contractors screed a layer of mason's sand on top of the processed base to level out the surface, but that inevitably walks (or squishes out). Does the stone dust that we are using sound ok or should I be working right on top of the processed stone. The material called stone sand is soft to the touch, and would level well, but not compact. Does it sound like we are using the right material or should I be using the processed stone minus the last 2&quot; of stone dust? Am I correct to assume that since the stone dust compacts well that it is OK? Sorry to be so long winded. <p>----------<br>Phil Grande - Soundview Landscape Supply - http://members.aol.com/slsnursery<br>Ivy League Landscaping - http://members.aol.com/scagrider

paul
02-19-2000, 10:46 PM
We use a graded stone call CA-6 state inspected 3/4&quot;- a limestone that gives us stable base. Most problems with any type of base is what is under the stone ie: soil types and its drainage. Most of you have seen a road failure, well it's the same thing. soil testing is the best way to determine if the soil will carry the load or if you can't use a fabric underlayment at least 2' past your layout. Masons sand will not work under pavers, it's to fine you need a coarse angular sand,this is what locks the pavers together. Stone dust will deteriorate over time and fail. Reclaimed concrete will work if it has enough fines. most times it's not graded and cleaned right. The most important rule find out where your material is comming from and if you think it's bad don't use it, they can and do send out bad loads, just reject the material and get another load. Tampers are not all made the same ( know I have about 5 that I have sold in the last year and have tried about 5 more that just don't hit hard enough.) We have moved to rollers mounted on our skid steers and just bought a 9 ton vibratory, this thing can really make base. As to questions on base here is haw we do it: 6&quot; base 3/4- stone compacted in 2&quot; or less lifts, check base with straight edge fill any voids,remove any high spots then recompact, screed out 1&quot; coarse sand, trowel out any marks and edges install pavers.

Lanelle
02-19-2000, 11:26 PM
The coarse angular sand that Paul referred to is called 'concrete sand' in our area. And he's absolutely right. Stone dust will break down over time. <br>The soil test is important. In our area we have very heavy clay, so we expect to have to use a geo-textile (not landscape fabric or filter cloth) between the soil and the base. This gives us the assurance that the base can't sink into the wet clay during a rainy season.

Stonehenge
02-21-2000, 03:16 PM
Hey Paul - <p>What is your typical paving project size? The equipment you're using sounds huge to me relative to the residential (pedestrian traffic) projects we do, and relative to the base depth you use. Are you doing mainly commercial projects? And, I don't like using any sand in the base - I build up the base w/ 3/4&quot;- (lifts of about 3&quot;), and for the top inch or so I set screed rails, screed and compact 3-5X. Final screed is not compacted. I think my way is probably much slower, but I like the long term results better (than using sand). Your thoughts?

paul
02-21-2000, 04:01 PM
Some are as small as 500 sq.ft to our largest of 22,000 sq. ft. <br>Your missing the point the sand is what actually locks the pavers together, by passing the plate tamper over the loose sand you force the paver down into the sand and sand into the joints. All you should do then is sweep sand into the top 1/2&quot; of paver. Our jobs are Parks and Forest Preserves. The large equipment reduces time on the job controling labor and improving costs. After twenty years of being kicked in the pants, iron is CHEAP, labor is expensive used only once and sometimes hard to keep. The easier you make it for your men the faster they will produce,the more money you will make. If you have a chance vist my web page, it needs updating but shows the type of work that we do.<p>----------<br>paul<br>

Stonehenge
02-22-2000, 08:37 AM
I agree re: labor vs iron. I'm also certain that finding good labor there is as tough as it is here. The reason I asked about the big equipment is because I was trying to picture using a vibratory roller attachment on a skidloader in the tight confines of my typical residential backyard, and residential patio prep area, and it seems like for a small job like that (300-700 sqft), you'd have trouble in tight turns, and since most of it would be tight turns, it would just create a big headache.<p>As for the sand, while I use it to sweep in over the top, then compact (x2) for interlock, I usually have two reasons not to use it in the base for every one reason given for using it (try me :)). Like I said, I think my way takes longer, so if that makes me less competitive, so be it. But I would argue for quite awhile about a difference in efficacy between the two methods. By the way, I checked out your website - beautiful stone walls! For that riverbank project, did you have to temporarily reroute/damn off any water? It looks like a project that came with many sleepless nights, but a certain portfolio boost.

paul
02-22-2000, 10:09 AM
If you can get a skidsteer in the yard you can use it. You just backup across the base material, should be no turns you will pull up gravel with a turn. If I read your post right you don't compact the final lift of gravel? this is what 1/4&quot; or less of lift right? Is that because you can't get the right type of sand? what about grooves from pulling the screed across the gravel or are you using STONE DUST? (see past posts) The sharp sand at times is hard to find but,will lock and all so has some give for minor imperfections, stone will not. I get calls every year from park districts for repairs on pavers that where not installed right, some have too much sand (somethimes 2&quot;-3&quot;) some not enough base, and some were installed without edge restrants. Stone dust will fail with time (no locking surfaces) I have seen it time after time. Not in three or four years but it will fail. The traffic that it recives will in a back yard is not that great, but in a park, some body will drive over it (just a matter of time). Of course you have a great base under most of your work ( sand and bank run). I on the other hand have to deal with junk ground and high clay type soils. <p>The stone came from your area, Halquist Stone Company. I do alot of river work sometime we use coffer dams, just big rubber tubes filled with water. But on that one we waited untill the river went down. As to sleepless nights the hard part was getting the project engineer to move away from glueing the stone togther and useing rebar to hold the stone in place.<p><br>----------<br>paul<p>Just forgot to add this, stone dust will not drain! If your base is not perfect and the soil is too heavy your base will fail. Sand will drain and if the proper sand type is used it will not move.

Stonehenge
02-22-2000, 01:54 PM
It's not quite stone dust like you'd find on the east coast. It's limestone fines, also called screenings, ranging from (depending on the quarry) 1/4&quot; to dust. I use the smallest I can find. Slightly higher dust content than 3/4&quot;-. Still has good interlock, is very angular like it's bigger brother. As for the final screed, it's typically 1/8&quot; or less (total # of compactions, including those prior to setting screed rails - 5-7). Haven't seen a coarse sand like (heard it called 'torpedo sand') you mentioned around here, but haven't been looking. As for our soil, it's actually pretty heavy clay. Here's a couple notes on sand - if you have imperfections in your stone base and cover it with approx 1&quot; of sand, the sand will drain water to the stone base, and will drain to the edge for the most part, but will sit in the pockets of imperfection. As for the water when it gets to the edge - I'm going to make the assumption that your edge restraint sits on the stone base, and not on the sand - that water will be trapped by the impenetrable edge restraint, and if/when it makes it past that, it likely will run into saturated soils just beyond the edge. Wouldn't it be better to apply a sealer/joint sand hardener so very little water ever even penetrates the brick or sand in the first place? <p>I had a project that the installed brick was to be about 1/2&quot; higher than the surrounding grade, but prior to installation, the base was 1 3/4&quot; lower. It rained cats and dogs while we were laying, and when we finished, the base had absorbed so much (with nowhere to go, sitting in a clay pot), that walking on the end portion was like walking on bricks laid over pudding. Long story short, we repaired it on a dry day, and I've checked it after subsequent rainfalls, with no problems. Sitting in that clay pot, sand would have had no effect. The water would still have nowhere to go, no matter how fast it got there.<p>On that riverbank project - I thought I saw empty tubes of adhesive and a guy drilling holes for rebar - those stones looked to be at least 1/2 ton each!

paul
02-22-2000, 02:25 PM
The sand has a larger void space it will not turn to puddings like screenings, it will drain as will 3/4&quot;- limestone(I have never reached 100% compaction) If my base extends at least 6&quot; beyond the pavers and has pitch there will be no water sitting in the sand after 24-48 hrs. Road builders have this problem, thats the real reason for a shoulder. Water will pass under the edge restraint system even if its concrete. <p>The Rebar realy hold the wall up the glue was to keep the stones from moving or rocking until the next layer was installed. <br>some of the stone weighed over 2000 lbs. the picture with the machine lifting is only a 16&quot; wide X 12&quot; deep, some parts of the project the stone was over 30&quot; wide by 12&quot;-14&quot; thick.<p>----------<br>paul<br>

ConcreteChris
02-22-2000, 08:01 PM
Stonehenge,<p>Just a note on your worry about drainage and using sand. Concrete pavers only allow about 3-4% of the rainfall that lands on it to percolate through(Assuming that the work is smooth and graded properly). This is the same percentage that asphalt allows and is relatively minimal when you think about the amount of water you need to begin effecting the base. <p>Second thing is the use of sand(washed concrete sand or ASTM C33). ASTM C33 is a national standard and assuming you work in the us and not canada any quarry should offer this gradation, if not they should have something comprabable. The spec can be found in the installation guide at www.belgardhardscapes.com. The sand is crucial as Paul said but I think you missed part of the benefit. It is great that you sweep sand but this is insufficient to create interlock in most situations. It is next to impossible to get enough sand through the joint unless you are using a very fine sand(play sand, masons sand) which is not what you should be using in the first place. If you do not use a sand setting bet (1&quot;) how do you ensure that you have interlock throughtout the entire joint. Go with industry standards and you will have the force of the industry backing you up. <p>

ConcreteChris
02-22-2000, 08:04 PM
SLSNursery,<p>You said in an earlier post that you use stone dust because local paver manufacturers recommend it. I would love to know who these manufacturers are so I can notify them of there error!!!!!

Stonehenge
02-22-2000, 10:19 PM
Hey Concrete Chris - <p>I apologize for this post in advance, as it will probably sound a bit derogatory. I'm not the type of person who takes somebody else's word as law, and need to see things for myself before I tout them as a 'best way', regardless of the stamp of approval they've received beforehand.<p>I don't know how much you know about pruning plants, but here's something I know - horticulture is studied in much greater depth than this particular type of pavement, so you would think that by now we would have a definitive standard for how to prune plant material, or specifically, how to treat the resulting wound. But we don't. 5 or more years ago, treating it with some sort of dressing was considered best, now, leaving the wound alone is considered best - it flops every several years. <p>As I understand it, the ICPI seems to be the authority on this type of installation (I don't recall if AASHTO addresses this pavement specifically, if it does, please tell the page # in the Guide For Design of Pavement Structures so I can look it up). I'm not currently a member of ICPI, so I don't know what their engineering staff consists of, and how often and what they test. <p>So, because I don't have access to their data, and it appears that you do, I'll ask you these questions: You say that sand below the pavers helps in interlock, much better than sweeping sand in from above. What tests were conducted to prove this, and what is a measure of interlock (for example, certain materials compact to certain Proctor Densities - what is the measure for interlock, and what other materials were compared)? Beyond the sand in the paver joints, there would be no vertical integration/hold with the sand below - the slip plane would be where the pavers meet the base, whatever that may be (stone, sand, etc), so there aren't any benefits there. How dense does the joint material need to be to be able to distribute loads to adjoining pavers? I question that one method provides such a substantially better density as to make that load sharing that much better.<p>Now I understand that the compressive force on the pavers will drive sand up into the joints, but it will also do this for screenings - test it....I have :). As for sweeping sand from the top and it's inability to get between the joints sufficiently...with the spacers that almost every paver mfg uses in production, how can the sand NOT fit? You've got a gap of about 1/8&quot;. <p>Paul, about your points you bring up - I typically extend the base 8-12&quot; beyond where the brick will be - I like to have room to make subtle changes in lines if I want to. Now let's assume that I have the usual recommended pitch, 1/4&quot;/foot, and that my prep is 1' wider than the brick. Using my previous example of pavers being 1/2&quot; higher than the grade (which is pretty reasonable), if water was filled in the prepped area up to the top of the base at patio's end, even with that extra foot, I'm still below grade with my water, so my question still stands - where does the water go, other than sitting in that clay pot? What I suggest is that the crushed stone does more in draining water than it's given credit for. I will agree that a coarse sand will carry the water away faster, but in a closed environment like that of a residential patio, the sand has no benefit. Now (I'm sorry I can't remember if it was you or Chris that brought this up) the roadway example makes perfect sense, as there are swails on either side to collect and carry away the water, and a confining edge restraint isn't needed. Now what would be interesting would be to find out from a DOT (or me read more of my AASHTO manual), how they handle water drainage for roads that are below grade - do they have perforated pipes or membranes that collect water and reroute it, like retaining walls? If so, than THIS should be what is also done with paving brick. Otherwise, there is nowhere for that water to go, other than simply being absorbed by the subsoil (which is what I suggest happens, regardless of your choice of sand of stone for the top inch). This has gotten too long and it's getting late. I look forward to your responses.<p>

Stonehenge
02-23-2000, 01:23 AM
I thought of a few more things - <p>For certain styles of pavers (Unilock's Classico, for example), when installing the pavers, you have to start in the middle of the project, to start your circle. How would you handle this with sand? My base is more forgiving for this - I use a 2x12 plank as a walkway to the center of the circle, and it leaves no marks. It would have to leave depressions in sand, even if planks were used. This would mean rescreeding or troweling, and the troweled area would have sand of a different density than the rest. This leads me to my next point. When you get this sand from a quarry, it will surely not be completely dry all through. It'll likely be moist, more in some spots than others. This means that some grains will be held together more closely than others, forming 'clumps', albeit small, and they break apart upon any impact. However, when this sand is screeded out, because it's not uniformly dry, it will have different densities throughout. Because it isn't compacted prior paving installation, this should lead to imperfections in the final product, because this interlocking, uncompacted sand will not flow perfectly even under compaction. This should lead to mild 'waves' in the completed paver project. Granted, we're probably talking about 1/8&quot; crest to trough on one of these 'waves', but they can only worsen in time. When I lay flat on my stomach on the site and look at the pavers, I expect to see perfect flatness (unless I installed it with a crown).<p>Boy, if we could get an ICPI engineer to put some info here, that'd be great. Is that something you could do, Concrete Chris? I might try to get a civil engineering prof from my alma mater to lend some insight here.<p><br>

paul
02-23-2000, 02:31 AM
First Wet sand increses in weight,with water but won't clump but moves more freely( water acts as a lub.) untill its compacted, now this only happens with the right sand and not all sand will work the grain shape must be angluar just like the 3/4&quot;- stone you use for your base only on a smaller scale. it will reduce in depth by all most 1/2 the structure of the sand by beening angluar wedges and locks between the pavers no amount of sweeping sand into joints can do this.<br>As to circle patterns what we do is spread only about a 2/3 of the sand around the circle leaving one side open untill the pavers are about 3' di. then place the plank on the pavers finish screeding and continue installation.<p>The one question I have; How hard is it to remove a chipped paver from one of your jobs.<p>----------<br>paul<br>

Stonehenge
02-23-2000, 01:39 PM
It depends on the type of brick - Unilock's Classico is easier just because of the big gaps. But for Hollandstone, I have to first use a hose to blast out as much sand as I can, and continue to keep it lubed with water during the process. I use what I'd call a 'pry-srewdriver': it looks like a screwdriver, except the head gets really thin and forks out, like the tail of a claw hammer. I use two of these on either side of the paver, and wriggle for about 60-120 seconds (estimate, I've never timed it). I usually end up going through two of these tools per season, taking out chipped pavers, ones with big rust spots, etc. Many times I have to remove pavers on a patio in order to build steps into the house (Segmental wall units sitting on the base) even with the paver half exposed (Holland paver, herringbone pattern), It doesn't usually come out by pulling it up or out. I still need to tool it to get it free. But not always.<p>What does it take to get your pavers out?<p>Hey, you mentioned you use Bend products in another forum - do you have trouble with efflourescence with them?

paul
02-23-2000, 04:08 PM
I have two tools #1 is used before we do the final compaction it's a brick extrator from Pave Tech, pretty slick has jaws that clamp the paver with spring steel teeth and the other is a tripod that has a hand winch and hook, I drill a hole in the paver and insert a steel anchor with a eye hook attach the winch then pull the pave out, I use it for after finial compaction. <p><p>----------<br>paul<br>

Stonehenge
02-23-2000, 05:27 PM
Pave Tech certainly has quite a few very slick tools, but they want a king's ransom for each one. Did you pay a lot for those tools? Also, for post-compaction paver removal, how long would it take for the eye-bolt extraction?<p>Another issue I have is in order to have all the tools needed for any happenstance on site, we have to bring 4 - 24&quot; long toolboxes, loaded with: rubber mallets, stone hammers, cutoff saw tools, levels, tapes, chisels, 2#-4# hammers, slab grabbers, on and on. If I were to add the tools from Pave Tech, I'd have to have a p/u just for tools. <p>By the way, what do you do when brick cutting time comes? For the average patio project (500 sq ft or so for us), we run 2 tub saws, and sometimes a cutoff saw. We run them w/o water - much dust, but no sediment working into the crevaces of the brick. I've heard of people bringing 2-55 gallon drums on site, one for fresh H2O, one for dirty. It seems like more work. We just gear up for the dust, then we take a blower to the house and patio afterward.<p>Also, how do you approach sealer for concrete pavers (w/ regard to the customer)?<p>Have you ever toyed with the idea of specialization for project installation (One crew for base prep, one for laying and cutting)?<p>

ConcreteChris
02-23-2000, 09:40 PM
Hey Guys,<p>Don't worry about sounding derogatory! We are just trying to find answers to questions that are almost impossible to answer emphatically. <p>I appreciate your response, but since I by no means a scientist and have never directly conducted a test myself. I must reference two sources for my beliefs first the icpi, I don't know if I can get anyone to join our debate but I will certainly try. But feel free to contact them at www.icpi.org or call David White at 212-712-9036. He is the resident expert in this area and maybe the world. I would wager that he could answer all of the detailed questions that you asked. The second source is my favorite text, Design and Construction of Interlocking Concrete Block Pavements by B. Shackel. This is the first and only text that I know of on paver theory. Although it is several years old it details many of the tests that have been performed and the results.<p>Also although I understand your analogy on the pruning of trees and shrubs ( I have a hort degree in fact) I don't quite see that it is an accurate comparison. Although every site is certainly different and there are many different factors pavers, base, setting bed, edge restraint will generally behave the same way regardless of type of paver. Your comparing this to the fact that we have not found a single consistent method to care for hundreds or thousands of distint and very different varieties and families of trees and shrubs. Maybe i am taking your analogy too far.<p>Also on the Tools has anyone else used tools from Brickstop? Although they are more expensive they have the best paver extractor I have ever seen or used. It is quick and efficient and the potential to damage surrounding pavers is minimal although I still hose out the joints or use a putty knife to make it easier.

Stonehenge
02-23-2000, 10:18 PM
Hey Chris - <p>Your response tells me I didn't do a good job of making my point using the pruning analogy. Here are a couple others - and I'm no history buff, so the names of these people escape me - before a handful of brave men staked their reputations and many times their lives on an idea, everyone believed the earth is flat, and the sun orbits the earth. Because I don't know of the depth of study in the ICPI, I want to make sure it's not a 'flat earth society', doing it the wrong way because we never bothered testing alternatives. <p>I'll look for the book you mentioned.

Lanelle
02-23-2000, 11:05 PM
Stonehenge,<br>Are you using rubber mallets when installing interlocking pavers?

Stonehenge
02-24-2000, 12:18 PM
No way. After screeding for retaining wall base and laying the first course, I still like to quickly check where the edge of each block meets the next for uniformity, and give a whack here or there, where needed, or to nudge a cap block that's received adhesive but has started to move, prior to the adhesive setting up.

steveair
02-24-2000, 07:09 PM
Stonehenge-I've only been in the business for a few years but I've learned one thing.....Everything changes. It sure would be nice to have standards but I never imagine any that will stick. For example, tell me the set way for planting a simple tree. There must be a million ways, and which one is right, beat the heck out of me. I've seen trees that are stuck in the in ground in 30 seconds with burlapp attached, rope around the collar, and not watered for months look ten times better than trees that i slave over to plant to &quot;industry&quot; standards. I also know a guy whos been installing pavers using just 3/4&quot; crushed stone with a stone dust topping for years and seen his driveways and patios look just as good as any other job does 7 years down the road. If you ask me, the best way to do the job is your way. If it makes you money and works for you, then that standard is the one you should use.

Stonehenge
02-25-2000, 09:36 AM
Paul - <p>On that 2&quot; of Portland mix suggestion to Steveair - I'm assuming you've used it before. Did you have any problems with heave cracks in the project?<p>And Steveair - I like knowing I'm installing my projects the best way I know how - a little debate like we've been having here really helps me to rethink my own ways of doing things, and consider other methods. Hopefully, I'll end up with sturdier projects because of this.

paul
02-25-2000, 10:52 AM
We used it on a project a year ago, the job was around a pond in my other post, no cracks yet! nice thing about it if the job is on poor soils (make sure you have enough base) all you need is a little more mix to repair.<p>----------<br>paul<p>

SLSNursery
02-26-2000, 07:31 AM
Concrete Chris - it was Not manufacturers, but distributors and retailers. The same ones selling the pavers would be loading up stonedust, etc. Anyway, I am checking into alternative materials that are available here. It shouldn't be a problem to adjust. Thank you.<p>----------<br>Phil Grande - Soundview Landscape Supply - http://members.aol.com/slsnursery<br>Ivy League Landscaping - http://members.aol.com/scagrider

ConcreteChris
02-27-2000, 10:47 AM
SLS<br>Thanks for the response. It is good to know that manufacturers are not recommending stonedust but you might want to let them know that their distributors are.<p>Stonehenge<p>Thanks for the additional analogy. Maybe I am just bad with analogies but are calling yourself the guys who thought the world was flat?

Stonehenge
02-27-2000, 08:00 PM
Chris - Nope. I'm not trying to call anybody anything, but in the analogy, I'm not a member of the aforementioned society.

Lanelle
09-25-2001, 09:41 PM
Here it is----- the classic 'oldie but goodie' all about putting in pavers. I know there are more but this should answer a lot of the questions that newer members may have on this topic.