Organic lawn care ?s

[KINGSBURYLANDSCAPELLC]

Hey Guys,
Im just getting into organic lawn care and had a few questions that I tried to search for but no direct answers.

Is there much of a difference between corn gluten meal and soybean meal? It seems like alot of people use CGM VS soybean. Is it just price related? Also is there any benefits to ICT's (Bill) CGM-8 over spreadables?

I plan on using ICT compost tea since I will not be set up this year to brew my own (until i'm sure there is a call for it in my area, plus i hear good reviews on ICT's tea) and was curious if anyone has applied it using a hydroseeder and if they see any problems with using it as a method to apply it?

[ICT Bill]

Hey Guys,
Im just getting into organic lawn care and had a few questions that I tried to search for but no direct answers.

Is there much of a difference between corn gluten meal and soybean meal? It seems like alot of people use CGM VS soybean. Is it just price related? Also is there any benefits to ICT's (Bill) CGM-8 over spreadables?

I plan on using ICT compost tea since I will not be set up this year to brew my own (until i'm sure there is a call for it in my area, plus i hear good reviews on ICT's tea) and was curious if anyone has applied it using a hydroseeder and if they see any problems with using it as a method to apply it?
A couple of things about CGM
If you do not have a spray rig then granular is the way to go
Bagged CGM is 9 to 10% nitrogen, the recommended minimum rate as a pre-emergent is 20 pounds per 1000 sq ft, at 10% N this is 2 pounds of nitrogen per 1000 which is a lot
There are many states that have laws now that you cannot apply more than 1 pound of nitrogen per 1000 per application, NOFA also has a guideline that no more than 3 pounds of N can be applied per year

If you put down 2 lbs of N first thing in the year it ruins your N budget for the year pretty much

Our Gluten-8 is 1.5% N so you are only applying roughly 1/4 lb per 1000 with the application

As long as you have a hose reel on the hydroseeder it should not be a problem, it will of course burn more gas than a spray rig but if that is what you have than I say use it.

[ICT Bill]

A note on spraying compost tea
there is no hard fast rule on how much water is applied in the application as a soil drench to turf. Most spray rigs are set up for 2 gallons per 1000 which is fine and works great, I consider it a minimum, some folks apply 4 to 5 gallons per 1000

So if you had a 100 gallon spray rig you could treat 50,000 sq ft at a minimum
When spraying AACT as a foliar in Ag it is a different thing altogether

[KINGSBURYLANDSCAPELLC]

Bill what are the advantages/differences of using cgm over soy bean meal?
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[phasthound]

Bill what are the advantages/differences of using cgm over soy bean meal?
Posted via Mobile Device

Corn Gluten Meal has pre-emergent properties while soy meal doesn't.

[dishboy]

Soy will usually be a lot cheaper, and most importantly to me does not have any root pruning effects you get from CGM and does not need to be applied at a rate that will create more problems than it solves. 2 lb of N in the spring is a terrible cultural practice IMO.

[Barefoot James]

A couple of things about CGM
If you do not have a spray rig then granular is the way to go


Are you talking about gluten meal here and useing a hydroseeder to apply vs granular CGM and spreading with spreader?

I have sprayed your Gluten 8 out of a backpack sprayer? You better clarify this Bill. The way I'm reading this post is unless you have a hydroseeder - then don't use your product:confused:

[JDUtah]

spray it with a cide sprayer

[JDUtah]

Or a tank and a sump

[JDUtah]

Or a trash pump

[KINGSBURYLANDSCAPELLC]

When spring comes what should be my attack plan on when to over seed and when to put down CGM as to not effect the seed growth?
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[ICT Bill]

When spring comes what should be my attack plan on when to over seed and when to put down CGM as to not effect the seed growth?
Posted via Mobile Device

With Gluten-8 3 weeks before and 3 weeks after application

with granular, i believe it is 4 weeks before or after

[Barefoot James]

Bill - answer the question about Gluten 8. what are you recommending folks use to spray it? I have used an electric back pack and out of a gilmour spray container/spray gun. Worked great - now your saying use a hydroseeder???

[Comfylawn]

Bill, as we all know with granulated CGM, for optimum effectiveness, the timing of the application with germination is essential. How does Gluten-8 compare with regards to the timing of the application? Also, I know New Hampshire can have some really rainy springs so, how well does your product hold up against the elements? Thanks

[ICT Bill]

Bill, as we all know with granulated CGM, for optimum effectiveness, the timing of the application with germination is essential. How does Gluten-8 compare with regards to the timing of the application? Also, I know New Hampshire can have some really rainy springs so, how well does your product hold up against the elements? Thanks

spring 2009 was about as wet as we have seen in a long time from Charlotte NC to Portland ME and west of that as well.
It was the first year we released Gluten-8 and everyone that used it said it did very well for them, some very big hitters in the northeast liked it very much. said it worked much better than the CGM they had been using for years

and because of the lower nitrogen they were not trying to mow a hay field after application, ours is 1.5% nitrogen, bagged CGM is 10%

Our 9 pound gallon bottle is equal to 80 pounds of CGM, so it is much cheaper to ship as well

Barefoot, the hydroseeder comment was because that was the equipment that he had and did not have a spray rig currently. My suggestion was to go with what you have rather than having to buy new equipment, the hydroseeder has a 200' hose reel so why not

ther are 2 times when weed seeds like to germinate, at 50 degrees F and 70, Iowa state suggests applying as the soil reaches 45 and is heading to 50, and then again as the soil is about to get to 70

[atouchofnature]

Corn Gluten Meal has pre-emergent properties while soy meal doesn't.

I hope that Barry doesn't take this as disrespect, because I will be the first to admit that he is much more educated than I in regards to organic lawn care. That being said, this statement may be wrong ...


http://ptrc.oldscollege.ca/pdf/LongTermCorn-Soy.pdf (http://ptrc.oldscollege.ca/pdf/LongTermCorn-Soy.pdf)
"After five years of application the high and the mid-rate of both the corn gluten and soybean meal had significantly lower dandelion counts than the untreated control. There were no significant differences between the soybean and the corn gluten meal at similar rates of application. There was no difference between the low rate and the untreated control. When considering percent reduction, the soybean meal reduced the dandelion populations the most. However, when considering that there were ten applications over the years, it is an expensive control option. There were no differences in turf quality between the treatments and the untreated control."


http://www.latest-science-articles.com/Engineering_Science/Preemergence-Herbicidal-Activity-of-Soybean-Meal-and-Its-Ecological-Effects-on-S-2562.html (http://www.latest-science-articles.com/Engineering_Science/Preemergence-Herbicidal-Activity-of-Soybean-Meal-and-Its-Ecological-Effects-on-S-2562.html)


If these articles are correct, and soybean meal applied at 20 lbs/1000 is just as effective for weed control as CGM at the same rate, then SBM would be the better option because of the lower N. As was already mentioned in this thread, the CGM would be 2 lbs of N per 1000, while the SBM would be about 1.4 lbs of N per 1000.

[phasthound]

I hope that Barry doesn't take this as disrespect, because I will be the first to admit that he is much more educated than I in regards to organic lawn care. That being said, this statement may be wrong ...


http://ptrc.oldscollege.ca/pdf/LongTermCorn-Soy.pdf (http://ptrc.oldscollege.ca/pdf/LongTermCorn-Soy.pdf)
"After five years of application the high and the mid-rate of both the corn gluten and soybean meal had significantly lower dandelion counts than the untreated control. There were no significant differences between the soybean and the corn gluten meal at similar rates of application. There was no difference between the low rate and the untreated control. When considering percent reduction, the soybean meal reduced the dandelion populations the most. However, when considering that there were ten applications over the years, it is an expensive control option. There were no differences in turf quality between the treatments and the untreated control."


http://www.latest-science-articles.com/Engineering_Science/Preemergence-Herbicidal-Activity-of-Soybean-Meal-and-Its-Ecological-Effects-on-S-2562.html (http://www.latest-science-articles.com/Engineering_Science/Preemergence-Herbicidal-Activity-of-Soybean-Meal-and-Its-Ecological-Effects-on-S-2562.html)


If these articles are correct, and soybean meal applied at 20 lbs/1000 is just as effective for weed control as CGM at the same rate, then SBM would be the better option because of the lower N. As was already mentioned in this thread, the CGM would be 2 lbs of N per 1000, while the SBM would be about 1.4 lbs of N per 1000.

No disrespect taken. That is good information I was not aware of, thanks. I like to learn something new everyday.

[Barefoot James]

Barefoot, the hydroseeder comment was because that was the equipment that he had and did not have a spray rig currently. My suggestion was to go with what you have rather than having to buy new equipment, the hydroseeder has a 200' hose reel so why not


A couple things to think about.
1. Gluten 8 is REALLY, REALLY expensive.
2. 200 to 300 ft of hose can hold several gallons of solution/mix and your hydroseeder and/or regular sprayer better blow out to the last drop or you could have many more gallons of solution/mix that is not used.
3. I would propose to maximize the Gluten 8 to use a Gilmour or Ortho mix holder/sprayer (with pure G8) at the end of the hose (weather it be a hydroseeder, reg sprayer or garden hose) that the main tank is filled with water. This way you use every last drop of that really expensive Gluten 8.
4. Another option is use a backpack pump sprayer or backback electric sprayer.

Food for thought it is your money and keep in mind 1 gallon (G8) does 4,000 sq ft at about $45 per gallon. 1 qt per 1 gallon of water so a 200 gallon sprayer means 40 gallons of (G8) and cost you about $1800 per tank. So every gallon you don't have access to is about $11/$12.

[phasthound]

A couple things to think about.
1. Gluten 8 is REALLY, REALLY expensive.
2. 200 to 300 ft of hose can hold several gallons of solution/mix and your hydroseeder and/or regular sprayer better blow out to the last drop or you could have many more gallons of solution/mix that is not used.
3. I would propose to maximize the Gluten 8 to use a Gilmour or Ortho mix holder/sprayer (with pure G8) at the end of the hose (weather it be a hydroseeder, reg sprayer or garden hose) that the main tank is filled with water. This way you use every last drop of that really expensive Gluten 8.
4. Another option is use a backpack pump sprayer or backback electric sprayer.

Food for thought it is your money and keep in mind 1 gallon (G8) does 4,000 sq ft at about $45 per gallon. 1 qt per 1 gallon of water so a 200 gallon sprayer means 40 gallons of (G8) and cost you about $1800 per tank. So every gallon you don't have access to is about $11/$12.

Good stuff, James.
What is the max PSI these hose end sprayers can handle?

[Barefoot James]

I don't know about the ortho - that is mainly for home owner and hoses at low pressures - but my gilmour can handle both my hydroseeder (300 gals) and CT sprayer (200 gals) and the are both under 90psi. I think my CT sprayer is only about 60psi. But you canget filters and such to control psi if you have to much. Some of the tree sprayers are really high pressure.
the only problem is these hand sprayer (solution holders) can only hold 32 onces. So you have to refill every 1000 sq ft - so for G8 I use a back pack and I have only used it on problem areas along drives/sidewalks.

For big areas use the big sprayers and you could have a nurse tank with water and when it runs out put in a little more (pure water) and shoot some food coloring in so you know when the G8 runs out and you are shooting pure water. This would work. My Turbo Turf Hydroseeder is great because I can use the big hose 4 inches or a 1/2 inch hose and the solution in tank goes to the las drop because it totally funnels to bottom. My CT sprayer leaves gallons in it because it is flat bottom and the hose coming out is several inches above the bottom. I also have to target my last spray to have hill to park on to take advantage of gravity - wish I know then what I know now, when I bought it. But it has made me lots of $$$ spraying tea and the tea gets great results on the lawns and landscape.

[phasthound]

Yeah, sounds like the hose end spray won't meet my needs. I have a 500 gal with a 25 gal side tank. CT in big tank & add what I need in the small tank.

I'd like to add this http://www.gregsonclark.com/eco_505.html
or this http://www.chemilizer.com/cp33.html

[Barefoot James]

I'm only talking about small area sprays like G8 or Speed Zone, Q4, glyco or something that you would not want to contaminate your tanks or pumps or hose. You can run straight water to this and the solution is in the bottle under the spray gun and it mixes right there and out to the yard.
Of course when we spray large properties with glyco to do renovations we do it this way too because you only need ounces of the stuff per 1000 sq ft to kill. Just another way to use your organic only equipment and not ruin it with the times you need to use expensive stuff or harmful stuff.

[KINGSBURYLANDSCAPELLC]

For big areas use the big sprayers and you could have a nurse tank with water and when it runs out put in a little more (pure water) and shoot some food coloring in so you know when the G8 runs out and you are shooting pure water. This would work. My Turbo Turf Hydroseeder is great because I can use the big hose 4 inches or a 1/2 inch hose and the solution in tank goes to the las drop because it totally funnels to bottom. My CT sprayer leaves gallons in it because it is flat bottom and the hose coming out is several inches above the bottom. I also have to target my last spray to have hill to park on to take advantage of gravity - wish I know then what I know now, when I bought it. But it has made me lots of $$$ spraying tea and the tea gets great results on the lawns and landscape.

James i'm running a turbo turf 500 and don't have the 1/2" hose on mine. Any pics of your setup or how I can do it to mine?

[Barefoot James]

Two options buy a hose kit from TT or another supplier or just get a brass coupling that screws into 4 inch hose that takes it down (on other side) to 1/2 or 3/4 or whatever size hose you need.
I will probably end up getting the kit/hose TT has as it is a quick set up that snaps on right at the pump and is designed to lower some pressure to accommodate the tea. Plus it swivels and can hold a hose up to about 300 feet with roll up. I have to use my regular hoses when I don't have my CT truck (that has everything mounted in bed) cause my TT 300 is on a trailer and is normally pulled by the other truck. Any way it's all logistics:laugh:

[CrazyBlonde]

A couple things to think about.
1. Gluten 8 is REALLY, REALLY expensive.
Food for thought it is your money and keep in mind 1 gallon (G8) does 4,000 sq ft at about $45 per gallon. 1 qt per 1 gallon of water so a 200 gallon sprayer means 40 gallons of (G8) and cost you about $1800 per tank. So every gallon you don't have access to is about $11/$12.

I'm really wanting to try this for 2010, does it come in bulk? So I can save some $$$? The CGM is running really high $ this year so we are trying to find a replacement.

[Barefoot James]

Call Bill - link below - he'll hook you up CGM does not work as well as G8. Only comes in gals but you deal in totes - who knows Bill has a price for it all. But I bet 275 tote goes for around 10 grand.

[CrazyBlonde]

Thanks James!

[KINGSBURYLANDSCAPELLC]

ok so here is my plan for the organics month by month:

March/April: Apply Corn Gluten and Aerate, de-thatch
May: soil test, Fertilizer, top dress with compost, over seed
June: compost tea application
July: monitor for insect damage
August: Fertilizer, compost tea application,
September: top dress with compost, over seed
October: compost tea application

plan on using north country organics pro-gro fert
http://norganics.com/

ICT organics compost tea (until I can afford a brewer)
http://www.ictorganics.com/index.cfm...ID/1/index.htm

and planet natural corn gluten meal
http://www.planetnatural.com/cgi-bin...rn-gluten-meal


Thoughts?

[ICT Bill]

ok so here is my plan for the organics month by month:

March/April: Apply Corn Gluten and Aerate, de-thatch
May: soil test, Fertilizer, top dress with compost, over seed
June: compost tea application
July: monitor for insect damage
August: Fertilizer, compost tea application,
September: top dress with compost, over seed
October: compost tea application

plan on using north country organics pro-gro fert
http://norganics.com/

ICT organics compost tea (until I can afford a brewer)
http://www.ictorganics.com/index.cfm...ID/1/index.htm

and planet natural corn gluten meal
http://www.planetnatural.com/cgi-bin...rn-gluten-meal


Thoughts?

Sounds like a plan, you guys over seed in the spring and not the fall? that's true you probably rarely get above 90 in the summer. In the mid Atlantic all of the seeding is done in the fall, spring seeding is normally not very successful

Fall, a month or so before the turf goes dormant, is the most important application of the year by far

[Kiril]

ok so here is my plan for the organics month by month:

March/April: soil test, Apply Corn Gluten and Aerate, de-thatch
May: Fertilizer, top dress with compost, over seed
June: compost tea application
July: monitor for insect damage
August: Fertilizer, compost tea application,
September: top dress with compost, over seed
October: compost tea application

plan on using north country organics pro-gro fert
http://norganics.com/

ICT organics compost tea (until I can afford a brewer)
http://www.ictorganics.com/index.cfm...ID/1/index.htm

and planet natural corn gluten meal
http://www.planetnatural.com/cgi-bin...rn-gluten-meal


Thoughts?

Note the change. I'm not going to comment on the rest of it.

[Marcos]

Note the change. I'm not going to comment on the rest of it.

...........:waving:

[KINGSBURYLANDSCAPELLC]

Note the change. I'm not going to comment on the rest of it.

Change noted. Why no comment on the rest?
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[Kiril]

Change noted. Why no comment on the rest?
Posted via Mobile Device

Well, I don't agree in principle on using feed meals and bagged products for "organic" landscapes.
I also am not really sure I agree with the CT and compost. Personally I would only use the compost, and if you need CT initially to get the system going faster, then use it, but phase it out as your system becomes more "self-supporting". The compost already has the microbes & food you want, and IMO there is no need to apply more products unless you need to make nutrient adjustments to compensate for what the compost might be limited in.

I also would consider doing the aeration & dethatch (if needed) in late Aug - early Sept when you do the fall over seed. I am not comfortable with the very early season severe disruption of the turf. So I would probably dump the spring aeration & dethatch and just go with the over seed (just to get some seed down) and compost. I also would try to get your fall work done a good 2 months prior to the end of the growing season.

Where do you live in NH?

[KINGSBURYLANDSCAPELLC]

Well, I don't agree in principle on using feed meals and bagged products for "organic" landscapes.
I also am not really sure I agree with the CT and compost. Personally I would only use the compost, and if you need CT initially to get the system going faster, then use it, but phase it out as your system becomes more "self-supporting". The compost already has the microbes & food you want, and IMO there is no need to apply more products unless you need to make nutrient adjustments to compensate for what the compost might be limited in.

I also would consider doing the aeration & dethatch (if needed) in late Aug - early Sept when you do the fall over seed. I am not comfortable with the very early season severe disruption of the turf. So I would probably dump the spring aeration & dethatch and just go with the over seed (just to get some seed down) and compost. I also would try to get your fall work done a good 2 months prior to the end of the growing season.

Where do you live in NH?
I appreciate all your seggestions and thoughts and it definetily gets me thinking.


I live in central NH. The lakes region
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[Kiril]

I live in central NH. The lakes region

I grew up in the Southern NH. We used to vacation on Winnipesaukee every year. Up where you are at, your fall timing might definitely be in August.

[Marcos]

ok so here is my plan for the organics month by month:

March/April: Apply Corn Gluten and Aerate, de-thatch
May: soil test, Fertilizer, top dress with compost, over seed
June: compost tea application
July: monitor for insect damage
August: Fertilizer, compost tea application,
September: top dress with compost, over seed
October: compost tea application

plan on using north country organics pro-gro fert
http://norganics.com/

ICT organics compost tea (until I can afford a brewer)
http://www.ictorganics.com/index.cfm...ID/1/index.htm

and planet natural corn gluten meal
http://www.planetnatural.com/cgi-bin...rn-gluten-meal


Thoughts?

Some things to think about, Kingsbury:

Do you need to apply CGM or Gluten-8 everywhere?
Are certain turf parcels you manage (or sections of them) dense enough to ward off weed breakthroughs all on their own w/o the aid of any pre-emergent?
And the various shaded areas on your customer list...do you think you need to spray Gluten-8 in these areas in your specific climate / latitude?
Crabgrass probably won't germinate & grow in the shade in NH, but is the turf dense enough there to ward off other annuals like chickweed, henbit, etc?

My point here is your job #1 is establishing turf DENSITY.
Ultimately in the direction this industry is headed, you will need to have your customers buy into THAT concept, above the tired-old concept of "pre-emergent everywhere" to keep their troublesome weeds at bay.

Picking & choosing the spots where your spread or spray your corn gluten is all about I.P.M, smart resource management & diverting that resource toward OTHER consumer-valued resources like bonus amounts of soybean meal, cotton seed meal, corn meal, alfalfa meal, compost, compost tea (or whatever)....later in the season!

Of course the customer needs to KNOW about your overall I.P.M. plan with the CG, and the bonus later! :waving:
Customer satisfaction & retention is all about good communication up-front.

And I agree with Kiril that late summer / early fall is generally better for the aeration & dethatch work in bluegrass, but if your schedule dictates more time in the spring, sometimes you've gotta go with the flow.