Proof to back up the claims?

[Grasssales2001]

Let me start by stating that I am a long time visitor to the organic forum here at lawnsite. I have posted a few times, but mainly I come to try and learn more about organics. Organics interests me from a resource conservation standpoint. In my line of work, I see an unbelievable amount of resources and time wasted by uneducated or untrained LCO's. The idea of building up soil fertilty now to reduce or eliminate future inputs appeals to me. Unfortunately, I see a lot of claims made about organics but very little scientific data to back up these claims. I want to believe that there is a better way to maintain healthy landscapes without the huge waste of resources I currently see in the industry.With that being said, does anyone have any scientific data or articles to back up the claim that synthetic ferts are detrimental to soil microbiology.

[starry night]

Maybe others will want to post on this thread. But I must tell you that we have been down this road several times. The threads have gone on and on and on. I wish I could tell you the titles of some but try the search feature.

Again, if others want to get in, start the action.

[Grasssales2001]

I appreciate the response dirt. It is not my intention of starting another long name calling and bashing session like I have seen many times on the organic forum.

[OrganicsMaine]

There have been many threads on this for sure, just search different threads....this could definitely be a loaded thread!

[Landscape Poet]

Let me start by stating that I am a long time visitor to the organic forum here at lawnsite. I have posted a few times, but mainly I come to try and learn more about organics. Organics interests me from a resource conservation standpoint. In my line of work, I see an unbelievable amount of resources and time wasted by uneducated or untrained LCO's. The idea of building up soil fertilty now to reduce or eliminate future inputs appeals to me. Unfortunately, I see a lot of claims made about organics but very little scientific data to back up these claims. I want to believe that there is a better way to maintain healthy landscapes without the huge waste of resources I currently see in the industry.With that being said, does anyone have any scientific data or articles to back up the claim that synthetic ferts are detrimental to soil microbiology.

Just find a thread in which Kiril has gotten on something, usually he puts up plenty of peer reviewed studies which contain lots of information. Hours and hours of reading, but if you are willing to put in the work and have the ability to decipher some of the scientific vocabulary, I think you will find lots of good information in some of his post. And do not be a stranger, I always enjoy others points of fews, so post away.

Michael

[CrazyBlonde]

These may help

http://arjournals.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.mi.15.100161.000441

http://ec.europa.eu/environment/integration/research/newsalert/pdf/13si3.pdf

Also of inerest:

http://www.chem-tox.com/pesticides/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesticide#Environmental_effects

http://urbanext.illinois.edu/soil/sq_info/pest.pdf

http://www.havahart.com/advice/living-organic/why-organic-living/chemical-pesticides-effects

http://www.sustainabletable.org/2009/10/pesticides-if-this-doesn%E2%80%99t-convince-you-nothing-will/

http://www.pollutionissues.com/Na-Ph/Pesticides.html

http://www.pesticide.org/Chapter2.pdf

http://www.organiclawncare101.com/synthetic-pesticides.html

http://ec.europa.eu/environment/integration/research/newsalert/pdf/13si.pdf

Note to members, before a Chemical vs Organic debate starts up: This is just MY OPINION on the subject, I am not going to get in a pissing contest with anyone over any portion of my opinion. You have a right to yours, and I have a right to mine, and I feel no need to defend my opinion. You can agree or disagree, I'm not an activist, and I'm not battleing to convert anyone. I am just in hopes that some of this is of use to some of you. The web sites listed above and other research, other Organic Care Companies such as the Lawn Brothers and other's wisdom and experience with organics have contributed to my opinion and this is what I believe. So here it is:

Your lawn is a natural ecosystem. It maintains itself by depending on NATURAL cycles. When the CHEMICAL "Lawn Care" company applies herbicides and pesticides they create an unnatural environment, polluting your soil and groundwater. Not ONLY do they kill the weeds and bugs, but they also kill the beneficial microbes that live in the soil, the soil and grass blades lack microbes necessary to fight off disease and pests, thus requiring the CHEMICAL "Lawn Care" company to artificially beautify your lawn by adding even more chemicals, causing a repetitive cycle of dependency on the chemicals. Your lawn needed these beneficial microbes to help break down organic matter (thatch) and convert this accumulation into nutrients. Grass clippings are an essential source of nutrients in a healthy lawn. This is why chemically treated lawns build up so much thatch, they can no longer break down the grass clippings and utilize the nutrients. Your lawn is unable to sustain itself naturally! Your lawn is now a chemical junkie! It must rely on ARTIFICIAL means to remain beautiful, whereas it would have been perfectly capable of natural beauty if given the opportunity to thrive. Mother Nature did it right, CHEMICALS are messing it up!

So now you have a chemically treated lawn extremely nutritionally deficient without any means of breaking down organic matter for food. So, to make up the difference, these CHEMICAL "Lawn Care" companies apply fertilizer on a regular basis to feed the lawn ($$$$$). These fertilizers are very high in Nitrogen, and while it makes your grass green up quickly, it does little else to help your lawn! Nitrogen causes the grass to put most of it's energy into blade growth. Yes, this looks great. The grass is bright green and grows a foot a week! This is not natural, folks! It's like steroids for your lawn. The grass puts most of it's energy into blade growth and very little into root growth. As a result, the grass cannot tap deep into the soil where the water is. It's roots stay close to the surface, causing your lawn to stress easily during times of drought or little rain. You try to compensate for this by over watering ($$$$$), (which is encouraged by the CHEMICAL "Lawn Care" companies), and costs a small fortune, not to mention wastes our water resources! This further adds to the problem of the grass not sending roots deep to find water. They don't need to, they get all they need right here at the surface! Also, the lawn grows about twice as fast as normal, requiring more frequent mowing ($$$$$) and creating excessive clippings that now must be removed by dethatching ($$$$$). If the clippings are not bagged ($$$$$), they will not decompose, and will bunch up and create dead spots in the lawn. The lawn will need to be dethatched and spot seeded ($$$$$). All of this results in a very weak, chemically dependent lawn that cannot pull the nutrients from the soil (they aren't there) and the roots have been weakened so badly by over-fertilization it can't get to the water deeper in the soil. So now it requires more work and money ($$$$$) than should be necessary. Get off the chemical junk!!! In a short time organic care can establish the natural cycle again. You know that being a drug junkie is bad for a family member, it's also bad for your lawn!

[Grasssales2001]

Crazyblonde, thank you for taking the time to post the links. Let me clarify, I am strictly wanting to no the effects of synthetic N,P,K and other nutrients on soil microbe populations. I am not talking abouth the use of synthetic herbicides,insecticides, or fungicicides.

[Kiril]

Here are some that I have in ready in bbcode format. Some you can download, some you will need to buy to read anything other than the abstract. Some links may not work and you will need to search for the new link.

------------------------------------------------

Impacts on Microbes & Microbial Communities


FERTILIZERS (Organic & Inorganic)

The effects of chronic nitrogen fertilization on alpine tundra soil microbial communities: implications for carbon and nitrogen cycling (http://amo.colorado.edu/n.pdf)

Chronic nitrogen enrichment affects the structure and function of the soil microbial community in temperate hardwood and pine forests (http://www.biology.duke.edu/fungi/mycolab/publications/Frey%20et%20al.%202004.pdf)

Chronic nitrogen additions reduce total soil respiration and microbial respiration in temperate forest
soils at the Harvard Forest (http://www.whrc.org/resources/published_literature/pdf/BowdenetalEcosyst.04.pdf)

Changes in Soil Microbial Biomass and Bacterial Community in a Long-term
Fertilization Experiment During the Growth of Maize (http://www.aensi.org/aeb/2008/1-8.pdf)

Bacterial Community Structure and Diversity in a Century-Old Manure-Treated Agroecosystem (http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/70/10/5868.pdf)

Seasonal changes in soil microbial communities along a fertility gradient of temperate grasslands (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0038-0717(99)00016-4)

Responses of the bacterial and fungal biomass in a grassland soil to multi-year applications of dairy manure slurry and fertilizer (http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=16474557)

Responses of grassland soil nematodes and protozoa to multi-year and single-year applications of dairy manure slurry and fertilizer (http://umanitoba.ca/faculties/afs/soil_science/MSSS/Ecology/Graduate/Forge%20et%20al%202005%20manure%20nema%20proto.pdf)

Soil microbial biomass and selected soil enzyme activities: effect of fertilization and cropping practices (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/9924)

Responses of Active Bacterial and Fungal Communities in Soils under Winter Wheat to Different Fertilizer and Pesticide Regimens (http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/70/5/2692.pdf)

Spatial and seasonal variation of gross nitrogen transformations and microbial biomass in a northeastern US grassland (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/20976)


Abstracts


Soil biological quality of grassland fertilized with adjusted cattle manure slurries in comparison with organic and inorganic fertilizers (http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s00374-009-0370-2)

Fungal biomass in pastures increases with age and reduced N input (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.soilbio.2007.01.013)

Fungal/bacterial ratios in grasslands with contrasting nitrogen management (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.soilbio.2006.01.008)

Soil microbial community responses to dairy manure or ammonium nitrate applications (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0038-0717(01)00004-9)

Chemical and biological indicators of soil quality in organic and conventional farming systems in Central Italy (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.ecolind.2005.08.029)

Application of fresh and composted organic wastes modifies structure, size and activity of soil microbial community under semiarid climate (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.apsoil.2008.05.007)

Structure and function of the soil microbial community in a long-term fertilizer experiment (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0038-0717(02)00297-3)

The role of tree leaf mulch and nitrogen fertilizer on turfgrass soil quality (http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s003740050524)

Long-term effect of mineral fertilizers and amendments on microbial dynamics in an alfisol of Western Himalayas (http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s12088-007-0016-8)

Ground beetle abundance and community composition in conventional and organic tomato systems of California's Central Valley (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0929-1393(98)00138-3)

Organic and synthetic fertility amendments influence soil microbial, physical and chemical properties on organic and conventional farms (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0929-1393(01)00187-1)

Long-term effects of organic and synthetic soil fertility amendments on soil microbial communities and the development of southern blight (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.soilbio.2007.04.001)

Effects of cover crops, compost, and manure amendments on soil microbial community structure in tomato production systems (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.apsoil.2007.08.003)

[Kiril]

Might as well post the rest of the file.

-------------------------------------------------

WATER


Influence of irrigated agriculture on soil microbial diversity (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/21497)

Response of microbial community composition and activity in agricultural and grassland soils after a simulated rainfall (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/6845)

Flooding effects on soil microbial communities (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/31492)

Microbial Communities in High and Low Recharge Environments: Implications for Microbial Transport in the Vadose Zone (http://www.springerlink.com/content/qa7eatvnbhl90b84/fulltext.pdf)


CROP RESIDUES


Redistribution of crop residues during row cultivation creates a biologically enhanced environment for soil microorganisms (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/8051)

Effects of mycorrhizal roots and extraradical hyphae on 15N uptake from vineyard cover crop litter and the soil microbial community (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/6870)


WEEDS


Nitrogen source influences wild mustard growth and competitive effect on sweet corn (http://arsweeds.cropsci.illinois.edu/nisource.pdf)

Nitrogen Fertilizer, Manure, and Compost Effects on Weed Growth
and Competition with Spring Wheat (http://agron.scijournals.org/cgi/reprint/97/6/1612.pdf)


COMPACTION & TEXTURE


Nitrogen mineralization and microbial biomass as affected by soil compaction (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/0038-0717(95)00154-9)

Microbial Responses to Wheel-Traffic in Conventional and No-Tillage Systems (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/15133)

Compaction alters physical but not biological indices of soil health (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/4078)

Active fractions of organic matter in soils with different texture (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/9925)


GENERAL DISTURBANCE


Microbial community responses in forest mineral soil to compaction, organic matter removal, and vegetation control (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/1423)

Soil microbial community composition and land use history in cultivated and grassland ecosystems of coastal California (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/20973)

Carbon and nitrogen conservation in dryland tillage and cropping systems (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/14341)

Soil Scarification and Wildfire Interactions and Effects on Microbial Communities and Carbon (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/10887)


PLANT COMPOSITION


Invasion by an exotic tree alters above and belowground ecosystem components (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/33745)

[Grasssales2001]

Thanks for posting the links Kiril.

[ICT Bill]

Thanks Kiril,
Great stuff, especially the chronic fertilizing articles, it shows how dramatically the swing can be in native beneficials in the soil

fertilizer is a food source some bacteria and fungi like it and others don't
just like food in a petri dish, some grow on certain media and others don't

by continually applying fertilizer you are selecting for the ones that like the fertilizer the others go dormant or the colonies die off

by applying anything, like molasses for instance, you are selecting for the microbes that like it as food (typically bacteria), their colonies go up and the others go down

One of the big reasons we don't do NPK, except what may come from the fish, molasses, humate or kelp, we use diverse foods both fungal and bacterial

[Comfylawn]

Scientific data Grasssales? Who needs data. Just look at the flash Fulvic Bloom ad !!! They don't grow chicks like that on chemically treated lawns. That's all the proof I need

[OrganicsMaine]

Kiril,

Can I get a signed copy of that book you have written on here?:laugh: As always, a wealth of info....Kudos

[atouchofnature]

Let me start by stating that I am a long time visitor to the organic forum here at lawnsite. I have posted a few times, but mainly I come to try and learn more about organics. Organics interests me from a resource conservation standpoint. In my line of work, I see an unbelievable amount of resources and time wasted by uneducated or untrained LCO's. The idea of building up soil fertilty now to reduce or eliminate future inputs appeals to me. Unfortunately, I see a lot of claims made about organics but very little scientific data to back up these claims. I want to believe that there is a better way to maintain healthy landscapes without the huge waste of resources I currently see in the industry.With that being said, does anyone have any scientific data or articles to back up the claim that synthetic ferts are detrimental to soil microbiology.

I am fairly new to the organic lawn care idea, and don't think I could learn as much as guys like Kiril, Tim Wilson, or Phasthound in a lifetime, but I have formed some opinions based upon the facts that I have gathered. If anyone disagrees, please say so, and also please explain to me why I am wrong because I want to learn from you guys. That being said .....

I believe that the question does not have a definitive answer. There are microbes in the soil that feed upon just about anything you can imagine, ranging from organic matter to chemical fertilizers to petroleum products like motor oil and gasoline. Adding anything to the soil will encourage the microbes that feed on that item to reproduce/multiply. So adding chemical ferts will actually lead to the enhancement of microbe populations that will feed on those fertilizers.

Meanwhile microbes that feed on organic material are going to go dormant if they are not given sufficient organic material to keep them all going. I am not sure of this, but I would imagine that if they were to remain dormant for long enough with no food source, many of them would eventually die, leaving a reduced number. I don't think they would completely die out, even in a chemically treated lawn where clippings are bagged. This is because even in the most extreme examples, small amounts of organic matter are still going to find their way into the soil from decomposing insects, small bits of grass clippings missed by the bagging mower, bits of leaves etc.

So, in a nutshell; I believe that chemical fertilization will not kill all microbes in a lawn, but will lead to increased numbers of microbes that feed on materials not normally provided by nature, and decreased numbers of microbes that feed upon organic materials.

[phasthound]

I am fairly new to the organic lawn care idea, and don't think I could learn as much as guys like Kiril, Tim Wilson, or Phasthound in a lifetime, but I have formed some opinions based upon the facts that I have gathered. If anyone disagrees, please say so, and also please explain to me why I am wrong because I want to learn from you guys. That being said .....

I believe that the question does not have a definitive answer. There are microbes in the soil that feed upon just about anything you can imagine, ranging from organic matter to chemical fertilizers to petroleum products like motor oil and gasoline. Adding anything to the soil will encourage the microbes that feed on that item to reproduce/multiply. So adding chemical ferts will actually lead to the enhancement of microbe populations that will feed on those fertilizers.

Meanwhile microbes that feed on organic material are going to go dormant if they are not given sufficient organic material to keep them all going. I am not sure of this, but I would imagine that if they were to remain dormant for long enough with no food source, many of them would eventually die, leaving a reduced number. I don't think they would completely die out, even in a chemically treated lawn where clippings are bagged. This is because even in the most extreme examples, small amounts of organic matter are still going to find their way into the soil from decomposing insects, small bits of grass clippings missed by the bagging mower, bits of leaves etc.

So, in a nutshell; I believe that chemical fertilization will not kill all microbes in a lawn, but will lead to increased numbers of microbes that feed on materials not normally provided by nature, and decreased numbers of microbes that feed upon organic materials.

Definitely a lot of stuff is happening in the soil. One researcher at Cornell told me it is so complicated that we will never understand all the interactions that are going on with soil microbes, plants, organic matter, minerals, water, etc. She also went on to explain that due to the reductionist nature of scientific experiments the complicated relationships that cure in nature are very difficult to replicate & understand.

So to simplify things, I would say that synthetic fertilizers do affect soil microbes in many ways. I would suggest it may be best to look at it in a different manner. Salt based ferts are designed to deliver NPK directly to the plant. Plants have evolved over billions of years to received many nutrients that have been decomposed by soil microbes and made available as plant need them and plants provide nutrients in the form of carbohydrates for soil microbes. Because of this complicated system, may microbes also have develops means of protecting plants from soil pathogens. Salt based ferts bypass this system, provide nutrients but weaken plants natural immune system and leave them open to attack much like a person being fed intravenously will survive, but requires antibiotics (plants need pesticides) to fight off pathogens because their immune system is compromised.

This is a very simplified synopsis of a very complicated system that we are nowhere near to understanding

[ICT Bill]

another point about replicating tests in the lab, I have asked the question many times to many professors that are supposed to know this stuff pretty well

are you able to grow out and test all of the microorganisms in the soil in a lab
the answer is somewhere between 80% and 99.5%, depending on who you talk to, of the soil microorganisms cannot be grown in the lab, they can be observed via microscope and often DNA sequenced

So there is a lot going on down there that we have no idea about, well can't prove scientifically in a lab. Maybe anecdotally

[ecoguy]

JD, what do you think? jk.

[Tim Wilson]

Nice thread. Good points.

Kiril; thanks for the PDFs

As Barry and others have pointed out it is more of a logical thing without getting into empirical evidence/proof which could take more than several lifetimes to satisfy all the 'but what ifs'. The intravenous and junkie lawn are both great analogies. Another which I used before is use it or loose it. If the evolved synergy between plants, bacteria, archaea, fungi, protozoa, nematodes, earthworms and arthropods is not excersized, it will pass away. If it is by-passed, which it is by chemical ionic fertilizers it will cease to function.

Many people think they are proving that chemical fertilizers do not harm microbes by demonstrating that micobes feed on these fertilizers. Of course they do! As has been stated here there are microbes which feed on diesel. If plants receive their nutrients from chemical ions they will stop outputting carbons to feed their favorite bacteria to make the protozoa hatch out which feed the plant, etc. etc. up the chain to the earthworm and arthropod. It is the whole system which must be considered, including the disease which must be chemically controlled when chemical fertilizers are in use.

[Tim Wilson]

PS. One more point I wanted to make. There is a little myth that molasses only feeds bacteria. It feeds both bacteria and fungi. Actually this is what Paul Stamets recommends to sprout fungal spores in water.

[ICT Bill]

PS. One more point I wanted to make. There is a little myth that molasses only feeds bacteria. It feeds both bacteria and fungi. Actually this is what Paul Stamets recommends to sprout fungal spores in water.

Yes you are correct BUT, as a rule of thimb to keep it simple for folks
Bacteria in general like simple sugars
fungi like more complex foods like cellulose

Of course it all depends on the species and genus

[Tim Wilson]

as a rule of thimb to keep it simple for folks
Bacteria in general like simple sugars
fungi like more complex foods like cellulose


This is just something I discovered through experimentation and I was pretty much refering to promoting fungal growth in a liquid (e.g. ACT). After observing this I read about Paul Stamets. Is there something more simple or soluble than just adding black strap molasses? I just wanted to refute the myth that it does not grow fungi; it does just fine.

Other good fungal foods are kelp meal (cellulose), alfalfa meal (cellulose), bran, flour and fish hydrolysate.

[tadhussey]

Here's another article you might find interesting:

http://www.grist.org/article/2010-02-23-new-research-synthetic-nitrogen-destroys-soil-carbon-undermines-

[ICT Bill]

Thanks Tad very interesting indeed

[JDUtah]

I have to...

"Well, that logic has come under fierce challenge from a team of University of Illinois researchers led by professors Richard Mulvaney, Saeed Khan, and Tim Ellsworth. In two recent papers (see here and here) the trio argues that the net effect of synthetic nitrogen use is to reduce soil's organic matter content. Why? Because, they posit, nitrogen fertilizer stimulates soil microbes, which feast on organic matter. Over time, the impact of this enhanced microbial appetite outweighs the benefits of more crop residues."

[Kiril]

JD ....

I think every one would appreciate if you would refrain from the out of context cut and paste.