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Smartgene
06-10-2002, 08:39 AM
I'm working on my own lawn and i have a lot of bare spots and a lack of thickness overall. So, last week, I put some seed and starter fert down with a spreader. I'm wondering if I may not have put enough seed down. With seed, is it the more the better, or is it important not to overseed?

Kent Lawns
06-10-2002, 08:46 AM
Seed:Soil contact.

You need to till the soil. (Even if it's only slightly)
An overseeder (Gandy, Ryan Mataway or Landpride) will till soil and place seed in the slit for effective germination.

Sprinkling seed on hard soil is fruitless.

stslawncare
06-10-2002, 10:07 AM
even when tilling in is it possible to put to much seed down?

Russo
06-10-2002, 10:08 AM
Good point, Kent. Even if all you do is scratch the soil loose with a steel rake, you need some type of soil preperation.

It's not really possible to use too much seed. The only considerstion is waste.

lawnstudent
06-10-2002, 02:00 PM
What they teach in turf management class is that you can put too much seed down. If all those seeds germinate because you have properly prep'd the site and have good soil contact, then your seedlings will be too crowded. Too much competition and a weak turf susceptable to stress and disease will result. There is a recommended seed density based upon the grass type that you are trying to sow. Also, this recommendation varies based upon a the establishment of new turf versus overseeding in an establing turf. Good luck.

jim

Smartgene
06-11-2002, 08:42 AM
Seems I'm getting conflicting responses here. Lawnstudent - where are you taking turf classes? I could use a few.

Russo
06-11-2002, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by lawnstudent
Too much competition and a weak turf susceptable to stress and disease will result.



I respect your input, as I do everyones when possible, but let's use our own heads and a little common sense. Based on what you're saying, then we don't want thick lawns at all because there's too much competition! Should we try to keep our turf thin? NO, we keep it healthy by providing the proper conditions and nutrients.

As with anything, you don't want extremes either way, but I think that this goes without saying. Smartgene, I think you are smart enough not to put a 2" layer of seed down.

The only conflict I see in opinion is that mine is mine, and Jim's is his teachers theory.

No offense, Jim, I understand that we are all here to help eachother, and you have helped me on previous posts on more than one occassion. I'm just not with ya on this one because of the reasoning behind it.

tremor
06-11-2002, 07:38 PM
Hey Guys,

There is some basis in fact here. If seeding with a blend of two or more species, the quickest germinating species (usually Anual or Perennial Ryegrass) will likely establish in numbers the blender/buyer didn't intend. This may or may not set the resulting stand up for some maintenance problems after establishment. It depends on the situation.

Seeding way too heavy certainly DOES result in a weaker & more disease prone stand.

Shadey areas are the most dramatic example where the individual seedlings are all competeing with one another for the limited light.

The most critical factors of all though are proper selection of blends/varieties, site preperation (including fertility), & post installation maintenence. In the heat we're having in Metro NY right now, post installation watering would have to take place 3 or more times per day to insure consistant germination regardless of prep.

Steve

paul
06-11-2002, 09:11 PM
Jim is right along with how the seed is installed, drilling has better germanation than just throwing seed down. Grass seed planted 1/8" to 1/4" deep in the soil requires far less seed than say hydroseeding or broadcast seeding. Seed types also call for more or less seed, blue grass requires 5 lbs per 1000 sq ft while rye grass needs 7-9 lbs per 1000.

GroundKprs
06-12-2002, 12:50 AM
Definitely seeding any grass type too heavily will cause stress from overcrowding. Just like too much water or too much fertilizer hurts the lawn, too much seed is also a no-no.

Common recommendations for a properly prepped and planted cool season lawn are 3#/K for bluegrass, 6#/K for rye, fine fescue or tall fescue. However, turf type dwarf tall fescues are best seeded at 9# to 12#/K. These numbers are for perfect planting, and are for viable seed. (If you're planting blue, and germination rate of your seed is 80%, you need 3#/0.8, or 3.75#/K.) You also need to know the germination success rate of your method of seeding; if your success rate is only 50%, you have to double the recommended rates.

And when using blends, you must be aware of the speed of germination of the different seed types in the blend. Tests at Purdue in early 90s showed that if using a blue/rye blend seeding in fall, you have 100% rye next summer if the rye part is greater than 10 to 15%. The rye germinates and grows so quickly, it smothers the later germinating blue.

tremor
06-12-2002, 07:45 AM
I think we've left out an important detail with respect to seed rates. That would pertain to a mono-stand of any type.

Straight Bluegrass as I sell it to sod farms goes down at <100 Lbs. PLS (pure live seed) per acre. There may be up to 2 years til harvest depending on field conditions & market pressure. When that is the case & the fields are well known with respect to weeds & being rotated properly, we can use even less. Time allows for weed control in the weeker stand & a timely fertility program that results in a good clean harvest long before the maintenance costs get screwy.
When seeding a home lawn with straight Bluegrass, client impatience would dictate more PLS/Acre & a more agressive grow-in program. That's fine. Too little seed will also require more herbicides & fertilizer.

Tall Fescue: In my book, anything short of 8-10lbs is a waste. I've sown as heavy as 15lbs/M.

My Favorite, Perrenial Ryegrass:

On dormant Bermuda golf couses we see the 7-14-21 rule.

7lbs/M Fairways
14lbs/M Tees
21lbs/M Greens

There is deviation to this so called rule, but I think we get the picture. Obviously, the thatch layer of the dormant Bermuda & the amount of rounds during transition all work with or against the budget to "assist" the super in making his/her decision as to rate.
I bare dirt seed with Rye here at the house at 15lbs/M generally. Because I prep, mulch, fertilize, & water properly, I probably get as close to 80% germ with 90%+ PLS as is ever likely to occurr outside the lab. The results are sweet. But in this case, I'm not inhibitting the establishment of slower Fescues or Blues. But the number of live plants per square foot is rediculously high. Not very practical for the real world, but nice all the same. The problem is, most folks won't pay what this is worth. I call it "EXTREME LAWN CARE". I live for those that can affod to pay for it & do. LOL!

Bottom line here is this. When using blends, stick to the recommendation of the blender or sales-rep. Adjust seed rates accordingly based on the environmental & site conditions & your gut insticts with respect to post-installation watering & maintenance liklihood. More good (& bad) seed jobs get really botched by inattention to watering details than anything else. Second most likely cause of failure is prep & installation practices. When selling seeding, sell a healthy dose of patience to your customer too.

I've seen some really bad jobs come in well just because the lucky SOB got some timely rain. Myself included here.

Steve

Russo
06-12-2002, 10:14 AM
Whoa! Me and my big mouth.

If one of my guys called me on the radio and asked the same question, I would probably still give the same short answer, but what a freaken wealth of knowledge from the people on this site.

I learned a lot, even though you guy's sounded like a bunch of "Garry"s in your responses. Great thread, even though I was wrong.

lawnstudent
06-12-2002, 12:50 PM
landscraper,

no offense taken. Thats what makes this site so great. You speak your mind and if you are wrong the right information will be provided. It can be harsh, but you learn from the experience. We all do. This is a great site!

Smartgene,

my local County College is offering classes in Horticulture. The head of the department is the previous University of Illinois extension service agent for our county.

jim

Gordon
07-25-2002, 11:36 AM
And when using blends, you must be aware of the speed of germination of the different seed types in the blend. Tests at Purdue in early 90s showed that if using a blue/rye blend seeding in fall, you have 100% rye next summer if the rye part is greater than 10 to 15%. The rye germinates and grows so quickly, it smothers the later germinating blue

At this time I guess you can say I'm overwhelmed with seed types and amounts. But I do have a question about planting with more than a 15% mix of rye grass.

If the Purdue paper is correct then a 25% rye grass/fescue mix would result in only a 20% germination rate at best. It would leave about 80% of the seed ungerminated if planted in fall.

Am I correct in this line of thinking
???
Gordon

KirbysLawn
07-25-2002, 12:00 PM
Didn't see so I guess I will ask.

What kind of seed were you putting down?

How many pounds per 1000/sf did you put down?

How did you prep the soil?

tremor
07-25-2002, 12:06 PM
I'd like to see the entire Purdue study. The indication here SHOULD be that there was still close to the tags required claim % germination (PLS) but the losses were with respect to ESTABLISHMENT.

Germination rates are not going to suffer when seeding too heavy. The fittest individual plants will be those that establish. They will then crowd out the slower grasses (whether slow species or varieties). Germination rates probably aren't what they were eluding to.

Of course, they may also have encountered unusually cold weather that would halt or at least inhibit the Bluegrass if it came too soon. The resulting stand would then be Ryegrass.

Hey, if it weren't for Perennial Ryegrass, I wouldn't have a lawn. So who am I to complain?

Steve

GroundKprs
07-25-2002, 08:36 PM
Gordon, all the viable seed germinates, but the quick germinating ryes shade out the slow germinating blues, so few of the blues survive.

The Purdue test was done for the summer field day several years ago. Different percentages of blue and rye were sown in the fall in test plots. A few weeks before the field day, all plots were sprayed with Lesco's TFC. TFC (different name now by Riverdale, I think) selectively kills tall fescue and ryegrass in other C3 turfgrasses.

If I had the time, I'd look up the printed report we got, but I can't remember the year. Just recently heard a recommendation that rye content never exceed 20% for the same reason.

With all the rye killed off, the only plot that had a significant amount of grass remaining was the one that was only 10% to 15% rye. And that plot still had bare spots. 50/50 plot had a few plants left. Control plot with no rye was beautiful. This demo was to show us that rye actually shades out the germinating bluegrass.

If I'm doing a new or renew bluegrass seeding, I will use absolutely no rye. Around here bluegrasses do well, and ryes are ugly when disease time comes; I'd rather not worry about disease control.

Someday I'll get a customer who appreciates long term results, and the bluegrass seeding will be complimented with wheat seed, instead of mulching. Look below to see roots of a wheat seed 3 days after it hits the ground (that's a quarter in the middle of pic); find another plant to beat that for quick soil stabilization. The wheat wants to grow tall, and doesn't shade out the blue seedlings. Yes, the wheat looks ugly popping way up, but it is a winter annual, and will die out in summer heat; or hold off mowing when it starts to grow good in springtime, and wick with Roundup. This method was given up 70-80 years ago to cut the expense of seeding.

tremor
07-25-2002, 09:55 PM
Jim,

I hadn't heard that in a while. Thought it was used primarily for forage crops, but why not?

The very erect habit would be great for Blues. I think I'll have to coax a liitle Wheat out of my contacts & try a little experiment.

^Thanks

Steve

Gordon
07-25-2002, 10:30 PM
Thank you very much for that detailed response. Explained like that it's quite simple. A very low percentage is good to help hold the soil in place while the longer germenating bluegrass gets started.

No sun=no grow.

Gordon

get rich
07-28-2002, 01:55 PM
if this all holds true then whats the purpose of trying to slit seed a lawn with bluegrass then if it will never see the light of day?i've recomended this to some homeowners who have a re accuring funji problem, sow more disease resistant bluegrass into the lawn.as opposed to treating with funjicides every thirty days until its gone or tearing the lawns out and starting over. i don't know call me crazy but it sounds like a good idea,with all the new genetics with seed production done now a days they have better disease resistant blues out there now ,right? if the lawn your slit seeding is a crappy three year old sodded lawn with a reaccuring fusarium problem, better to just treat the dead areas with new soil and seed or remove old contaminated soil then replace with new dirt and seed,but slit seeding the thick sodded lawn with good cutting edge seed is useless,because the seed will never see the light of day in a thick lawn? or maybe cut the lawn really short for awhile? just wondering???????:confused:

lawnstudent
07-28-2002, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by get rich
if this all holds true then whats the purpose of trying to slit seed a lawn with bluegrass then if it will never see the light of day?i've recomended this to some homeowners who have a re accuring funji problem, sow more disease resistant bluegrass into the lawn.as opposed to treating with funjicides every thirty days until its gone or tearing the lawns out and starting over. i don't know call me crazy but it sounds like a good idea,with all the new genetics with seed production done now a days they have better disease resistant blues out there now ,right? if the lawn your slit seeding is a crappy three year old sodded lawn with a reaccuring fusarium problem, better to just treat the dead areas with new soil and seed or remove old contaminated soil then replace with new dirt and seed,but slit seeding the thick sodded lawn with good cutting edge seed is useless,because the seed will never see the light of day in a thick lawn? or maybe cut the lawn really short for awhile? just wondering???????:confused:

Slit seed a diseasesd lawn and the KB seed will germinate in those areas thinned by disease.

Treat disease with fungicides until gone?! Pathogens are everywhere. Disease will be right back the following year (if weather is right). Don't ever think you can cure disease with fungicides. You will be applying fungicide for the rest of your life on a lawn without disease resistant cultivars.

Remove contaminated soil? How do you know that the replacement soil is free of pathogens? And if it is, the pathogens will blow into your new soil before the seeds germinate. You are never going to eliminate the pathogens. They will always be present. You can't control the weather. The only variable we have are the use of disease resistant cultavars. And even a disease resistant cultivar can lose its resistance when pathogens are present and grass is under extream stress.

So how are you going to inject cultivar resistant seeds into an established lawn? Slit seed because this gives you the best soil contact for seed germination success. If lawn areas are thinned by disease, the seed will recieve enough light & germinate. If not the seed is in the soil and will germinate the next year or the year after that if the lawn thins due to disease. You have just added the seed to the soil's seed bank for future use. If the lawn has not thinned due to disease, then nuke it with glyphosate. The dead lawn will hold the soil in place until the new KB grass seeds germinate. Good luck.

jim

tremor
07-28-2002, 06:48 PM
And thus my very valid argument in favor of Perennial Ryegrass. Not those lousy lime green upright's you find at K-Mart & Wally World. I'm talking about the real deal high end, endophyte enhanced cultivars. You know, the top 1/3 of the NTEP trial data.

If Bluegrass is giving someone this much trouble, then scrap the Blues. I'll wager that better than 50% of the folks who read this can't tell the difference between Blues & better Ryes without some significant visual aids anyway. That's not a knock on applicators. It's a compliment for the seed breeders in this country.

For the record, some Blue will always establish. What does will later creep. That's why I'd like to see that Purdue study myself. Don't beleive everything you read. Remember who evaluates the university test plots. They might have been burning one right before the "grass plot check". How do we know that ALL the Bluegrass that was TFC treated was really ready for the herbicide. The blots that demonstrated Bluegrass establishment might have also lost Blues to the herbicide, but the count was so high in the first place that the results weren't noticeable in the field.

Keep in might too, that the act of slit-seeding has a very desirable effect at rejuvenating the old dieased Bluegrasses too. Combine that with some cool fall weather & some starter fertilizer & most of the existing lawn will begin to repair itself. With or without seed.

There is also the option of using Primo to keep the existing turf in check during the establishment phase. Spray about 7-10 days before the intended seeding date. There will be no impact on the seedlings so they'll have a better shot at establishing.

All4now

Steve

lawnstudent
07-28-2002, 11:01 PM
Originally posted by tremor
And thus my very valid argument in favor of Perennial Ryegrass. Not those lousy lime green upright's you find at K-Mart & Wally World. I'm talking about the real deal high end, endophyte enhanced cultivars. You know, the top 1/3 of the NTEP trial data.

If Bluegrass is giving someone this much trouble, then scrap the Blues. I'll wager that better than 50% of the folks who read this can't tell the difference between Blues & better Ryes without some significant visual aids anyway. That's not a knock on applicators. It's a compliment for the seed breeders in this country.


All4now

Steve

Steve,

visually you'r right. The better ryes are hard to distinguish from the blues. The knock on ryes is two fold:

1) They do not recover from injury as well as a blue.
2) They do not tolerate drought, heat and cold stress as well as a blue.

Here in the Chicago area I've seen lawns that have been established with low end seed mixtures that look great for a year or two and then thin out. These low end mixtures have been dominated by ryes (60% rye seed or more) and the ryes die from the extream cold of a Chicago winter. Then the HO wonders what have I done wrong, why can't I grow a green lawn? They go back & purchase another rye mixture, restablish a green lawn only to lose it again after another cold winter. I've been in their garage's and have seen their collection of "Premium" lawn seed mixtures from a dozen stores spanning years of this cycle.

jim

GroundKprs
07-29-2002, 01:28 AM
I'm with lawnstudent on that one, Steve. You may have great environment for rye back there, but here you will always do better with bluegrass. Rye here is for the cheesy hydroseeders, so the client sees green real quick, and the seeder gets his green (cash).

If I can manage the irrigation, I never wait more than 7 days for a 100% bluegrass seeding to show a green fuzz. Now a spring seeding I would do with rye, then Roundup it on Aug 10, mow short in 5 days, and slitseed with blue.

Also, Steve, the Purdue incident was a demonstration, not a report. I saw the results with my own eyes, and I trust the guys there who stated what they did. These guys don't have to sell anything, so they can tell us straight about all the junk out there, and also the good that they find.

tremor
07-29-2002, 08:16 AM
Jim(s),

It all boils down to making the proper selection of cultivars & species for the intended use.

Ryegrass tolerates wear BETTER than Bluegrass. At least here in Metro NY it does. I'd wager that if you look further south, the higher summer temperautes might negate that otherwise desirable Ryegrass trait. Yet it also doesn't repair itself as well as Bluegrass. So if minimum mechanical input is desired, then perhaps Bluegrass should predominate in a stand. It won't look much better under low input, but when the activity ceases, properly managed Blues will repair themselves.

There was a time when I would have agreed with you guys with respect to Ryegrass. The first Perennial Rye blend that I ever used was a bag given to me free by my seed supplier who thought I was too "old school". I installed it in a back yard where we intended to remove that section of lawn the following year. That was around 1985 and these were cutting edge Rye cultivars for the day. After watching that turf perform for a year, I gradually began to convert. Ryegrasses today will tolerate lower mowing than Blues. They now also tiller better than before. So a thin stand will improve with fertilization much like Bluegrass. Endophyte enhancement has resulted in stands that are more insect & disease resistant than Bluegrass too. And Ryes are quicker to establish. Meaning that herbicide use comes down. Rapid establishment also helps the municiple turf managers around here where the population density has crowded out the ability to expand public athletic facilities. This at the same time the need for more fields has exploded. Waiting for Bluegrass to establish is a good way for a turf manager to loose his or her job around here. Having to then schedule a broadleaf weed spray is nearly impossible. Good Perennial Ryegrasses make Parks Dept. supervisors & BOE Athletic directors look good because the fields are playable. Blue or Rye, at seasons end the turf will be gone in the traffic areas either way.

I still like Bluegrass. But feel it is agronomically irresponsible to use Blues without the better Ryes. This because anything that enhances genetic diversity, will have an impact on disease resistance. I also don't recommend mono-stands of Rye unless it's for a TV shoot.

If a stand of Bluegrass is continuously being infected by a "Bluegrass disease" like Summer Patch, it is more responsible to reseed with Ryegrass than it is to engage in an agressive fungicide program. Likewise, Gray Leaf Spot has really changed the way golf fairways are manages around here. Some courses can't use Rye's anymore.

Just as home lawns are different than Athletic fields, different sports have differing needs too. Baseball plays on Blues at 50-90% (of the stand) around here. Because the sod farms can't harvest sod if it has more than about 15-20% Ryegrass, we slice-seed Rye at the first opportunity. If sod were produced at 50% Rye, the sod won't hold together. For non-skinned infielding & shallow outfielding, Rye seems to deliver a more predictable ball hop. Probably due to the nice, low, yet erect growth habit of the good Rye cultivars. Football players find that Ryegrass is too slippery & prefer Blues for better footing at the line. By the end of the football season though, we find that only Annual Rye can keep the players out of the mud until after the first few turnovers, when it may be all mud anyway. All players will tolerate Anual Rye when the only other option is dirt.

I angle all my maintence programs with a slant towards introducing Rye into ALL the 100% Bluegrass stands I encounter. The end result is a more durable stand that tolerates disease pressure better & has much better spring green-up properties. Thats big stuff if the TV cameras are coming in April, October, or November. Home lawn LCO's benefit from early spring green up too. Many applicators and Landscapers are haraassed into apllying heavy spring ferts by impatient homeowners who get tired of waiting for Bluegrass Sod lawns to green up in the spring. Then the clippings games begin all over.

This has absolutely nothing to do with making more or less money on my sales either. I actually make a slightly better margin on Bluegrass than I do on Rye. So that allegation won't hold any water. I make recommendations based on sound agronomic principles that make the best use of my clients budget with the first priority being personal safety for those who use the resulting stands of turf for whatever reason they're there. Then sound environmental concerns come into play. After that comes asthetic value. Unless a direct request is made otherwise, I approach the budget subject last. But that is my client's decision, not mine. Ryegrass out-sell's Blue by a huge margin nationwide and it costs more money to use Ryegrass. Unless otherwise requested, I rank priorities:


1.) Safety
2.) Environmental Concerns
3.) Asthetic Value
4.) Budget

I find that more commercial applicators use Ryegrass around here for the simple reason that the sooner their customers see green, the sooner they get to collect the green. Not the best reason, I know. But let's face it, we're in business to make money. If this practice helps them collect, then there is value in the customer/sales relationship all the way around. Satisfaction = The perception of value. Nothing else matters if value isn't perceived.

Gotta run for now,

Steve

GroundKprs
07-29-2002, 04:52 PM
Sorry, guys, I'm in ornamental turf management in the midwestern USA. What is ornamental turf? Simply a turf stand managed to look good from a distance. When the client points down to his crummy front lawn, and then points to the great lawn across the street, I just ask him to walk across the street, and perceive his lawn from the middle of that lawn - that has never failed to educate them to ornamental turf.

Sports turf discussion is useless to my work, it's a whole different world. I have had people who think that their lawns should look like the golf course, but they quickly change their minds when apprised of the cost of maintaining their plot of turf as golf turf. If they didn't change their minds, I wouldn't want to bust my tail trying to please them, anyhow.

In ornamental turf in my part of the midwest, bluegrasses are the most useful types to use. If you include any significant percentages of rye, you have to have fungicide program ready. With bluegrasses, proper site management will generally negate any need for fungicides. There is no magic fungicide, fertilizer, seed, or any other item that will replace proper management.

The only significant patch disease problem I have had was in a poorly drained new lawn. Had to go down 5 feet to find a 6"-8" layer of nearly impermeable clay, the result of our glacial soil construction. Client went together with 2 neighbors, got a good drainage guy, and one dry well with a tile to the street solved drainage problem for all three, and eliminated patch disease problem from my site. Really stupid of me, right? I could have sold over $25 K in fungicide treatments in the last 8 years, and we'd still have the patch problem. Management is the key to success with any plants.

And anyone in IN (or MI, IL, OH, KY) can trust the advice of your state cooperative extension turf specialists, and your state turfgrass associations. Apparently we have a much better caliber of personnel in these positions than eastern states do. And their helpfulness and sincerity is amazing. I have even had questions by email answered by someone away on vacation! These guys and gals know the difference between sports turf and ornamental turf, and can answer your questions accordingly.

tremor
07-30-2002, 11:37 AM
Jim,

Which diseases are ripping up the Ryes out your way?

We get our fair share of fungal diseases too, but not really specific to an individual species. At any time of the year, I can find a disease cooking on something, somewhere. Creeping Bentgrass is an obvious exception here, but it's been a while since folks around here planted it in a home lawn on purpose. That's why the extension agents recommend blends of the "big three" (Blue/Rye/Fescue). The Co-op folks around here are actaully VERY good at what they do. But they don't often get called on to consult for that top 5% of the Pro turf market very often. Not because they can't do it. But because they can't get into the field for what amounts to a commercial endeavor when it's the citizenry who pays their salaries via taxes. I find that they will respond the the request of a homeowner & maybe even the grounds pro, ONCE. But the wealthier homeowners are usually also the most demanding, so that doesn't work for very long.
They do seem opposed to going into the field too often & are quite opposed to being an unpaid technical advisor to a Lawn Care Pro.

But what I don't get is why the crack at the East Coast agents in the first place?

Lawn-Scapes
08-01-2002, 12:18 AM
Instead of starting a new thread I'd like to add to this one..

I hope to do many aerating and overseeding jobs this fall. I will mainly target new construction homes where the lawns look like c*r*a*p. The grass is referred to as contractors mix.. I will also target my clients yards that are a mish-mosh of grasses. None of these lawns have irrigation.. so I will have to be one of those lucky SOBs with some timely rain as Tremor put it. Lawns are large too.. 1 acre plus.. so they (the client) will not be moving the hose around the yard.

There wasn't much talk about Fescue in this thread. I was planning to use Lesco's Transition blend. Is this 'quality' seed? Should I look into Bluegrass? What do you look for.. I've seen prices from $50 - $200 for a bag of seed?

Any feedback will be much appreciated!

tremor
08-01-2002, 06:35 AM
TSG,

I'd first like to know what(other than anual rye) was in the contractors seed. If cool season fine texured grasses (Blue, Rye, Fine Fescues) are common ingredients in your area, then I'd Roundup the lawns first.

I love Tall Fescue. My Mom's backlawn was Transition (she moved). Great varieties too. I just go the 2002 new crop info & can get the varieies list if you'd like. Excellent selection for Maryland. Better there than here. But I wouldn't seed TF into a lawn that may already have a lot of fine leaf grasses in it. The resulting stand will look rather poor. Tall Fescue should domin ate in a blend. I'd say 70% is the minimum in a blend but 100% is what I'd use.

Maybe Ray Kirby will see this. He does a lot more with TF than anyone around CT/NY does. I'm afraid the lack of local interest in TF forces me to keep up more with the Blues & Ryes since that's all anyone wants to use.

Steve