PDA

View Full Version : Lime, PH ?


ArTurf
03-21-2010, 11:53 AM
Any thoughts on correcting PH with lime or other methods. Calcium carbonate vs. dolomitic? Organic guys/gals what are your thoughts?

Young Bros
03-21-2010, 12:05 PM
We try and get most of our customers to take a soil test. If the ph is 6.5 we apply lime. If the pH is 7.5 then we apply sulfur. For soil conditioning we also apply gypsum and compost. The soil around here is natuarally alkiline from the glaciers.

phasthound
03-21-2010, 12:19 PM
Any thoughts on correcting PH with lime or other methods. Calcium carbonate vs. dolomitic? Organic guys/gals what are your thoughts?

Which type of lime is determined by calcium/magnesium ratio in soil test.

kirk1701
03-21-2010, 01:36 PM
We try and get most of our customers to take a soil test. If the ph is 6.5 we apply lime. If the pH is 7.5 then we apply sulfur. For soil conditioning we also apply gypsum and compost. The soil around here is natuarally alkiline from the glaciers.

I thought a pH of 6.5 - 7 is where you want to be?

Reason I ask is because I had a thread on pH here last spring on my pH was 6.5 and everyone told me that was great don't do anything.

Young Bros
03-21-2010, 02:15 PM
I thought a pH of 6.5 - 7 is where you want to be?

Reason I ask is because I had a thread on pH here last spring on my pH was 6.5 and everyone told me that was great don't do anything.

I'm sorry I meant 6.0 and 7.5. We have never had to apply Lime here, only sulfur. One of the links below says 6-7 for bluegrass and other sayd 6.0 to 7.5.

http://www.gardenguides.com/3029-soil-ph.html
http://cropsoil.psu.edu/Extension/facts/agfact50.pdf

Think Green
03-21-2010, 03:10 PM
ArTurf,
Any time that the state does a soil test for us, the results all come back with the same mumbo-jumbo. Use XX amount of dolomitic limestone. Calcium/Magnesium blend.

kirk1701
03-21-2010, 04:05 PM
I'm sorry I meant 6.0 and 7.5. We have never had to apply Lime here, only sulfur. One of the links below says 6-7 for bluegrass and other sayd 6.0 to 7.5.

http://www.gardenguides.com/3029-soil-ph.html
http://cropsoil.psu.edu/Extension/facts/agfact50.pdf
So is sulfur what you put down to reduce the pH?

I made a small bo bo and we'll, should had done something different in this area to start with but I now have honeysuckles (acidic plant) and Holly (Also acidic) planted along my fence line. What I did wrong was also plant grass (Alkaline) right up to the fence hence you now see the bo bo. I'm fixing to correct that this summer so I want to make the soil there acidic.

ArTurf,
Any time that the state does a soil test for us, the results all come back with the same mumbo-jumbo. Use XX amount of dolomitic limestone. Calcium/Magnesium blend.

Same here, I've actually got to the point I know what my lawn needs without tests. Last time I got soil samples was last June, was told to put Nitrogen down :hammerhead:

Young Bros
03-21-2010, 05:31 PM
Sulfur lowers pH

kirk1701
03-24-2010, 12:12 PM
Sulfur lowers pH

Is this how you guys buy it?

I'm guessing not, where can I find it by the bag?
http://www.southernstates.com/catalog/p-351-bonide-aluminum-sulfate-4lb.aspx

Young Bros
03-24-2010, 03:38 PM
Is this how you guys buy it?

I'm guessing not, where can I find it by the bag?
http://www.southernstates.com/catalog/p-351-bonide-aluminum-sulfate-4lb.aspx

I got 40 or 50 lb bags from our suppliers. I found on the internet this site:

http://www.greenfire.net/hot/F087.html

Half of my suppliers say gypsum does not change pH and the other half says it does...so I dont know. They all said sulfur will lower and lime will rasie your pH. We put HydroSave from NatraTurf on as many lawns as we can, they also have spot gone for pets (same product smaller bag and sgn):

http://www.natraturf.com/index.cfm

If you look on there they talk about soil samples too. Its best to be taking annual samples, at least untill you get it between 6-7.5.

Young Bros
03-24-2010, 03:55 PM
I think I was originally right that gypsum does not affect pH.

http://cesonoma.ucdavis.edu/hortic/pdf/changing_soil_ph.pdf

Kiril
03-24-2010, 03:59 PM
IMO, if the pH is between 5.3 and 7.8, it is not worth "adjusting". People here would be better served to work on building and maintaining a decent level of SOM as this will help move your soils towards neutral and keep them there, instead of the continual "adjustment" mentality that your distributors want you to follow.

Also .... gypsum will do next to nothing with regard to pH adjustments.

Young Bros
03-24-2010, 04:01 PM
Also .... gypsum will do next to nothing with regard to pH adjustments.

Good to know, we will continue to use gypsum as a soil conditioner. We also apply compost pellets if soil condition is poor.

Kiril
03-24-2010, 04:03 PM
Good to know, we will continue to use gypsum as a soil conditioner. We also apply compost pellets if soil condition is poor.

Gypsum is primarily used for sodic soil reclamation, and secondarily for Ca and S adjustments.

Young Bros
03-24-2010, 04:08 PM
Gypsum is primarily used for sodic soil reclamation, and secondarily for Ca and S adjustments.

The rental I moved into last here had a tree stump carver living here. I could not get much grass to grow around a stump he must have did carvings on. I applied a couple apps of gypsum and finally I got it nice and think there.

kirk1701
03-24-2010, 04:26 PM
I got 40 or 50 lb bags from our suppliers. I found on the internet this site:

http://www.greenfire.net/hot/F087.html

Half of my suppliers say gypsum does not change pH and the other half says it does...so I dont know. They all said sulfur will lower and lime will rasie your pH. We put HydroSave from NatraTurf on as many lawns as we can, they also have spot gone for pets (same product smaller bag and sgn):

http://www.natraturf.com/index.cfm

If you look on there they talk about soil samples too. Its best to be taking annual samples, at least untill you get it between 6-7.5.

We'll, this isn't it then
http://www.bonideproducts.com/products/product.php?category_id=141

yep, done purchased it too, its what Southern States sold me :cry:

Young Bros
03-24-2010, 05:39 PM
You probably could have got a 50 lb bag for the same price.

kirk1701
03-24-2010, 06:28 PM
You probably could have got a 50 lb bag for the same price.

Yea I know now.
Taking it back tomorrow so I'll see what I can find locally then might order from that site you posted.

I'd like to get it around the holly ASAP then I'm killing the grass sometime this spring and making it a mulch bed 4' out from the fence.

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=309722

kirk1701
03-25-2010, 08:14 PM
You probably could have got a 50 lb bag for the same price.

OK might have got lucky :)
Depends on who you get at Souther States and the knowledge of the person. They did not have this yesterday, today they did.

Is this it? Let me know ASAP I'd like to apply tomorrow (Thursday)

lilmarvin4064
03-25-2010, 09:04 PM
IMO, if the pH is between 5.3 and 7.8, it is not worth "adjusting". People here would be better served to work on building and maintaining a decent level of SOM as this will help move your soils towards neutral and keep them there, instead of the continual "adjustment" mentality that your distributors want you to follow.

Also .... gypsum will do next to nothing with regard to pH adjustments.

in the long term I agree, but in the short term, I don't. If reseeding is necessary you'd be better off with an application of calcium carbonate w/ PHCA for fast results. I've seen what it can do and it's impressive. While I would gladly recommend topsoil or compost, this type of service would be too cost prohibitive/ too labor intensive for the average customer (unless you can convince them). How fast would SOM applied, correct the pH of the subsoil? You're losing a lot of N efficiency @ 5.3 pH. what do you organic guys prefer as an N source? I've dealt with some soils with pHs in the 4.x's. what do yall got?

lilmarvin4064
03-25-2010, 09:10 PM
I've had respected soil recommendations with lime requirements as high as 15,230 lbs dolomite per acre. I was just looking over it. Poor guy!

Kiril
03-25-2010, 10:11 PM
in the long term I agree, but in the short term, I don't. If reseeding is necessary you'd be better off with an application of calcium carbonate w/ PHCA for fast results. I've seen what it can do and it's impressive. While I would gladly recommend topsoil or compost, this type of service would be too cost prohibitive/ too labor intensive for the average customer (unless you can convince them).

I disagree, especially since it is a more permanent solution and comes with a host of other benefits which will also reduce management costs (i.e. reduction or elimination of fert & squirt). How much does it cost to keep applying some type of lime in an acidic soil? I agree there are times when it may be needed (Ag, sports turf), but for your typical landscape in the range I posted ..... not worth it.

How fast would SOM applied, correct the pH of the subsoil?

How deep do you need? Most all plants get the majority of water/nutrients from the top ~ 50% of the root zone.

You're losing a lot of N efficiency @ 5.3 pH.

How much exactly and why?

what do you organic guys prefer as an N source?

There are a wide variety of organic materials that will satisfy N requirements .... including compost and your mulch mowed clippings.

I've dealt with some soils with pHs in the 4.x's. what do yall got?

It varies from acidic to basic depending on the site.

kirk1701
03-26-2010, 12:39 AM
Hey guys
Would like to get an answer to my last post on page 2 before tomorrow if possible Thumbs Up

Would like to get it around the holly tomorrow and Saturday because we have more rain coming on Sunday. But I don't want to make a bad situation worse it this bag is not the sulfur I need to reduce the pH :confused:

Thanks

Kiril
03-26-2010, 08:52 AM
Hey guys
Would like to get an answer to my last post on page 2 before tomorrow if possible Thumbs Up

Would like to get it around the holly tomorrow and Saturday because we have more rain coming on Sunday. But I don't want to make a bad situation worse it this bag is not the sulfur I need to reduce the pH :confused:

Thanks

Sulfur (S) is sulfur. If I am not mistaken, don't you apply lime on a yearly basis? Now you are going to apply sulfur?

kirk1701
03-26-2010, 09:08 AM
Sulfur (S) is sulfur. If I am not mistaken, don't you apply lime on a yearly basis? Now you are going to apply sulfur?

You are correct Kiril :drinkup:

However I made a big bo bo in my choice of landscaping and used a row Holly 3' from the fence and on the fence I planted honeysuckles (Yea Yea I know you guys despise honeysuckles). :laugh: Anyhow both are acidic, my mistake was planting grass right up to the dam fence, but three years ago I didn't even know what acidic soil was and didn't even know grass needed limed.

The holly isn't doing any good, some have even turned brown like from disease or even died over the winter and in three years they haven't grew much. I should see some green growth on them by this time of the year but this year nothing so far.

There's some pictures posted here to give you an idea
http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=309722

So to correct this I've decided to make a mulch bed 4.5' out from the fence. Done got the 300' role of landscaping paper and 36-8 foot landscaping timbers to go down that side of the yard. I was going to put mulch down inside the beds after I get them built, but I've been told pine bark is a natural acidic release so thats what I'm going to use.

Before I put the landscaping paper down and start on building the beds I want to work around the holly and work the sulfur in.

Kiril
03-26-2010, 09:27 AM
You planted honeysuckle behind holly? Man, you are going to regret that decision.

You should make the area into a landscaped planting bed, but before you had planted anything. Forget the weed block, just use mulch.

Don't apply any sulfur unless you can document a need for it. Do you even know the soil pH in that area? I have said this before, and will say it again .... stop trying to micromanage your soil. You are more likely than not doing more harm than good.

FYI, I have seen honeysuckle do just fine in basic soils.

BTW, why do you feel your grass needs lime?

kirk1701
03-26-2010, 09:36 AM
You planted honeysuckle behind holly? Man, you are going to regret that decision.

You should make the area into a landscaped planting bed, but before you had planted anything. Forget the weed block, just use mulch.

Don't apply any sulfur unless you can document a need for it. Do you even know the soil pH in that area? I have said this before, and will say it again .... stop trying to micromanage your soil. You are more likely than not doing more harm than good.

FYI, I have seen honeysuckle do just fine in basic soils.

BTW, why do you feel your grass needs lime?

Yea the pH is 6.5, I didn't need to get a test I have a tester myself.

And I know your right about the micromanaging which I'm not doing as much this year. I put a slow release fert down last week with Barricade at a rate to last till mid Sept. My hopes now are, a little spot spraying to kill what weeds germinate this spring and be done till Sept :drinkup:

We'll, besides mowing that is :laugh:

Kiril
03-26-2010, 09:42 AM
Forget about the sulfur, return the weed block, pull out the honeysuckle. Seriously Kirk .... I don't think you fully appreciate the headache you are creating here. Mark my words .... you leave that stuff in and you will back asking how to get rid of it in a couple of years.

kirk1701
03-26-2010, 09:52 AM
Forget about the sulfur, return the weed block, pull out the honeysuckle. Seriously Kirk .... I don't think you fully appreciate the headache you are creating here. Mark my words .... you leave that stuff in and you will back asking how to get rid of it in a couple of years.

I know I probably will, here's the thing though its a "Neighbor pesticide" :laugh:

Seriously, 10 years we've had issues with this busy body and we found out she's alergic to honeysuckles plus the honeysuckles cover the fence for privacy till the holly get big enough.

You would not believe how many times the cops have been out here. All stupid stuff to like logs layed down five feet into our property to stop water from draining downhill :dizzy:

naughty62
03-26-2010, 10:21 AM
Boss drug home a gypsum base soil amendment yesterday.it lowers the ph .IT contains 17% S 7?% Ca . Its in the SO3 form .No info on how many pounds to lower the soil 1. point .It say 10to 25LBS in 2 Apps and show a nutrient to Ph optimumation chart .He was told to apply 10 lb/M .I hate googling labels .I will get the label/reg # from the shed later.It came from Zimco in Sioux city .

Kiril
03-26-2010, 10:55 AM
Boss drug home a gypsum base soil amendment yesterday.it lowers the ph .IT contains 17% S 7?% Ca . Its in the SO3 form .No info on how many pounds to lower the soil 1. point .It say 10to 25LBS in 2 Apps and show a nutrient to Ph optimumation chart .He was told to apply 10 lb/M .I hate googling labels .I will get the label/reg # from the shed later.It came from Zimco in Sioux city .

CaSO3 (calcium sulfite) is not CaSO4 (gypsum/calcium sulfate) .... and unless you know your soil chemistry well ... IMO you are playing with fire applying sulfite.

Young Bros
03-26-2010, 11:03 AM
Yea the pH is 6.5, I didn't need to get a test I have a tester myself.

And I know your right about the micromanaging which I'm not doing as much this year. I put a slow release fert down last week with Barricade at a rate to last till mid Sept. My hopes now are, a little spot spraying to kill what weeds germinate this spring and be done till Sept :drinkup:

We'll, besides mowing that is :laugh:

I would not trust hand testers for pH. Lab is is the only good way I found to get an accurate number. I did hand tests then sent in to iowa state university and the numbers did not match.

kirk1701
03-31-2010, 02:32 AM
Forget about the sulfur, return the weed block, pull out the honeysuckle. Seriously Kirk .... I don't think you fully appreciate the headache you are creating here. Mark my words .... you leave that stuff in and you will back asking how to get rid of it in a couple of years.

Hey Kiril
Was going through some old pics today looking for the property line for this project I've started (mulch bed see HERE (http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=310844))

Anyhow, This is what I mean by "Neighbor pesticide" :laugh:
You can see in the pic below the survey stakes and where the logs the neighbor had is on us.

The can see from the thread above the tree in both photo's and the tree is now on the inside of the fence to keep the neighbor off our property its that bad. :cry:

She has even been caught red handed killing shrubs.

Kiril
03-31-2010, 10:07 AM
I understand the dilemma Kirk .... but IMO, your "pesticide" is probably going to end up pissing you off more than her.