Help! Ticked off customer!

[Jeff11]

Yes I know, I am just a pion scrub with only 3 clients, but I would still love some help. Of the three, one of them is convinced I have burned her lawn. Here's the story: In mid-March I put down customer supplied fert&crabgrass preventer per her request. Exactly a month later I put down Lesco 5-10-20 Pre-M which is what the guys at Lesco recommended to get full coverage on the crabgrass. Well now about 80% of the grass is crispy, crunchy and brown. I know we are in quite a drought in the Carolinas but her grass is really bad. Question is: Is it possible that I did burn her grass? Lesco rep. says it is impossble with the 5-10-20 even if I put down 6 times the recommended amount. Was a month too soon to put down a second application? She "claims" she is watering like crazy which I do believe, maybe it's just not enough. I know this was long winded, but any help would be great.

[Mark]

Was this a nice established Lawn or just a heinz 57? With out a soil sample its hard to say just what this lawn needed, I have a client who overseeded his lawn in March and he asked me in early May should i put down some scotts/with/halts for his weeds, i told him that the new grass needs time to develop a strong root system so don't, well he said the man at Lowes told him it would be OK, he applied it and now all his new grass is burned, when i first saw it i thought maybe with all the humidity and rain that it might be a disease till he told me nope i should have listened to you i went ahead and put down the halts. Its very possible the P-emerge put stress on the grass without knowing anything about the lawn.. sorry couldn't help in detail.. Marks Mowing Service

[Likestomow]

Jeff --- you put the 5-10-20 down in mid April. The 5-10-20 has very low nitrogen, so I don’t think it carried any risk of fertilizer burn.

That was two months ago. Your area is in a drought. See if her yard looks any worse than her neighbors’ yards. My guess is it’s brown from lack of moisture. Don’t sweat it.

[CSRA Landscaping]

Jeff, don't worry about being a peon, we all have to start somewhere. :D
A scrub wouldn't care about nuking a lawn, so I'd say that rules you out of the scrub category, sorry bucko. :(

Anyway ... what kind of grass was it? It wasn't a lovely yard of poa annua to be replaced by crabgrass was it? Or was it a yard of rye that would never survive the summer?

[Jeff11]

The yard was in really good shape, good fescue coverage with few weeds. Now it does look considerably worse than her neighbors. She claims they are watering much more than last year. The question is: how is she watering? Which poses another question. Can 10-15 min. watering intervals "burn" grass by choking off the roots from the water? Hell, around here 10 min of water will barely penetrate the surface. Still at a loss as to what to tell her without getting into a "blame game" conversation. Thanks for all of the replies!:dizzy:

[CSRA Landscaping]

I don't suppose you could get a picture of it?

I would be suspicious of that bag of 'customer-supplied' stuff. Did it have a chemical in it that was toxic to fescue? I don't generally deal with fescue, so I don't know what post/pre-m's would be harmful to it ... Ray?

[onelegjohn]

Don't be offended at this comment as I don't know you - but - how short are you cutting the grass. Sometimes - if you cut too short and add fertilizer - it seems if the green leafy part of the grass isn't there - it isn't there to absorb the fertilizer through the roots. .. so the fertilizer stops at the stem of the stubby blade. The stems don't like that as much as the leafy part. I just finished my BA in Chemistry and I have quite a bit of Biology knowledge as my family has an orchard and my uncle is the curator for the Cleveland Natural History Museum. So from what I know this would be my best educated guess..... chlorophyll is a porophyn dimer which is a complex of carbon rings and I am pretty sure that is what loves nitrogen...some dimers do that. Well if the dimers aren't there there is no where for the nitrogen to go. ..and it burns the stem where there is no chlorophyll.

[Jeff11]

Don't think the first application was a problem. I don't remember the exact brand but it is commonly used around here and most of the lawns in this area are fescue. I'll work on a photo, but I wont have my camera for a few days (the in-laws borrowed it for a while). Thanks.

[LAWNGODFATHER]

There is a lot that contributes to this.

Watering for 10 minutes a day (time of day can have no affect) on dried out soil most likely runs off or evaporate before it penitrates.

Drought has 80% of the blame 15% to the Pre-em.

And as my next comment has been posted already.

How high are you mowing can also aid in burning the lawn.

[johnhenry]

Since you are new to this and you seem to really care about it. Go get the soil test and that will be the tell all. it could be everything to the drought, cutting to short,low on iron, brown spot, or many other types of fungus. As far as burning it out with your fertlizer. I really dont think you did that. You sure she didnt have gulf annual rye. It looks alot like fescue until the summer heat. Anways go get the test and ease your mind

[Brickman]

10 to 15 mins of water SHOULD NOT drown the grass. I have zones that run 35, 45, and even 60. The reason they are running that long is that is what it takes to keep the grass green.

[Craig Turf Management]

It's hard to comment without seeing the property, but I will anyway. Drought has hit us hard again this year, and it seems fescue is going dormant sooner this year than last. I don't think the apps hurt her lawn. The culprit is lack of water. Watering like crazy won't do your client much good after the fescue turns brown. Did you say it is a fescue lawn, or am I just assuming? How short are you mowing? How much water? I wouldn't reccommend applying customer provided chemicals to the lawn. Use what you are comfortable with. Talk to the Lesco guys. They have a good product, and offer good advice. If you ask them nicely, they might even ride out to the property with you. If you haven't already, join Carolina Grounds Management Association, and make some buddies. They will benefit you greatly in the future.
Just my .02, Bill Craig!

[Bob Minney]

A quick way to check how deep she is watering is to use a screw driver-it should push in easily 4-6". A better way is to get soil sampler and pull a plug to see how deep the soil is moist-a good way to show a customer the problem and get them to increase watering time. If the sampler will only go in 1-2" then the problem is obvious.

Like mentioned before, soil test should point out fertilizer/desease problem.

What was the formula on her fert/crab grass preventer? & on what type turf?

[bobbygedd]

the 5-10 doesnt have enough nitro to smoke a lawn, and fescues r fine with pre ems. as far as watering, i have customers that water one and a half hours per zone, and customers that dont water at all, and no one has a lawn looking as bad as u describe this one. did the lawn turn brown in spots, then take over alltogether? how did the lawn look last year? if the soil is unable to hold moisture it is possible , as i have seen, the lawn looks great in spring, turns to hell in late june/july, customers airates, or thatches and seeds in sept, looks good by mid october, looks great again the following spring, then the process repeats. sounds like a soil problem to me. in any event, i doubt the ferts had anything to do with it. u did apply it properly? recommended rate etc? good luck

[65hoss]

A number of factors could be effecting it, but the 5-10-10 isn't doing it.

[awm]

all the things u did were usually helpful .
also most additives in the wrong situation can backfire on u. .
sounds like u did normal condition good things . but if u have drought like i do
they could have been detrimental
possibly. only thing i can think of.
in any case dont think id be taking the blame for acts or inacts of god.
good luck an welcome to grass farming.:)

[BRIMOW525]

my question would be... how much of the lawn was crabgrass? I have had alot of customers ask me to fertilize and the when the fert kills all the weeds they complain that they have brown patches and what not. I would also actually dig out a piece of the lawn to see how much watering the customer has actually done. People tell me "yea yea I water everyday when i get home" But there's no hose outside or they hand water the lawn thinking its better. Some customers tell the truth but what they do isn't for the amount of time that is needed. Especially during a hot spell, the ground dries up quick and it's harder to keep the ground moist AND keep the grass happy. But like others have said, seriously doubt the fert did it.

[lawnstudent]

Does this lawn have a thick thatch layer (much greater than 1/2 inch)? Use a soil coring tool to remove a 3/4 inch diameter core 6 inches deep. Or cut or dig out a soil sample. Look at the top of the soil sample. How thick is the brown fiberous mat (thatch layer)?

A thick thatch layer with frequent short waterings could have allowed the turf to root into the thatch layer. A Pre-M is designed to tightly bond to the soil surface. It has no mobility in soil, but the opposite occurs in thatch. The pre-m will move throughout the thatck layer. If this lawn's roots where primarily in the thatch layer, the pre-m would have pruned the fescue's roots and the lawn would fry.

Also, a thatch layer is very difficult to wet out once it becomes dry. 10 -15 minutes of watering will not penetrate a thatch layer that has become completely dry. It is like trying to wet out really dry peak moss. The water just rolls off the thatch like water off a duck's back. The lawn could have gone dormant from lack of water even though the homeowner waters every day for 10- 15 minutes.

jim

[ADMowing]

Sometimes a lawn will look a little nasty after being treated until it can get back into shape. If there was an underlying problem that you didn't know about, it may be trying to "heal." Like when you transplant a tree, the shock will cause it to drop its leaves, but it will be okay when pruned and let to grow with some good watering. Just a thought.

Also, I've been wondering what a lot of others are wondering. How tall are you cutting the grass? It is important in a drought situation to mow tall -- 3" to 4" to keep the root system shaded and help the nutrients that have been applied soak into the turf system. Even on our irrigated lawns, we were mowing high because you just can't get enough water into the lawns with the restrictions we've had. We needed rain. Once the rain starts, then you can cut a little lower.

My 2 cents! Hope it greens back in a hurry for ya! :p

[Jeff11]

Well, once again I'd like to thank everyone for the input. To answer the hieght question I am mowing at ~4 inches. We finally got a little rain and her grass is looking a LITTLE better, so I'm pretty sure she's not watering enough or correctly. She is somewhat of a difficult customer anyway, so it looks like it's time for some more flyers. Someone asked for a photo and if I did it correctly it should be attached.

[CSRA Landscaping]

It didn't attach.