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moonlighting
04-02-2010, 11:47 AM
I recently learned that i have been installing some light fixtures that do not have a CSA or ULc listing.

I have been installing some of these for 3 years, all the while claiming that all of the fixtures in fact were listed.The manufaturer in the past had listed every fixture in their product line, had always clamied to be the safe system and promoted to me these key factors to earn my business.
are they to be hald liable also if there is an issue with one of there fixtures that causes an issue with my customers?

My supplier, who also is a huge supporter of CSA listed fixtures had sold me these fixtures, are they also to be held liable?

of course i will be held liable if there is a issue with my installation while using these fixtures.

these are the questions i am wondering about on good Friday. What are your thoughts on this?

Jason Fleming
Moonlighting

irrig8r
04-02-2010, 12:07 PM
I think you have every right to be pissed. It's also strange that the discussion where you first tried airing this was censored...

We know that there were other distractions going on, but it's really not an excuse. And I'm not sure how deep the manufacturer's pockets are anymore should anything bad happen.

You are obviously not alone in this. My initial research tells me that some of the fixtures may either have no listing at all, or the record keeping has been lax.

I talked to my distributor about it yesterday. He had no idea either.

moonlighting
04-02-2010, 12:40 PM
So Greg, will this effect you in your area? do you currently get inspections on your installs? if so, are the inspectors so lax that they only glance at the transformer?

j

moonlighting
04-02-2010, 12:44 PM
I have a list of fixtures that were checked against the CSA website and were not listed. PM me if you want them.

irrig8r
04-02-2010, 12:56 PM
I think I already saw that list from John H. I'm still waiting for details and want to see a response from the manufacturer. Yes I have likely installed some of them. I hope a listing is retroactive.

I don't get LV work inspected, mostly because I don't usually install on a structure (except deck railings, posts, arbors, gazebos) it's done within the scope of landscaping work, and as far as I know such inspections are not required here.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
04-02-2010, 03:16 PM
Jason, you are correct that any and all electrical components installed by you must have the appropriate listings/approvals. Here in Ontario those listings are CSA, ULc, cETL, cTUV, cMETus and a handful of others.

You the installing contractor are solely responsible if you are installing un-approved fixtures and components.

I too have been caught off-guard by this situation. Not that I have failed any inspections because of it, but in that I feel significantly led astray. It should be interesting to see how quickly they can get their act together and get the rest of the line approved. My big concern here is that the current ownership is not going to have deep enough pockets to pay the bill to bring all the listings up to date.

For those of you in the USA... this is also of concern. You should NOT be installing any electrical components that are not properly listed for the intended application. To do so only opens yourself up to liability.

Regards

sal rodriguez
04-02-2010, 04:41 PM
It would be interesting to know if anyone can document a case or cases where unlisted outdoor lighting product caused structural or human casualty?

sal rodriguez
04-02-2010, 04:44 PM
I recently learned that i have been installing some light fixtures that do not have a CSA or ULc listing.

I have been installing some of these for 3 years, all the while claiming that all of the fixtures in fact were listed.The manufaturer in the past had listed every fixture in their product line, had always clamied to be the safe system and promoted to me these key factors to earn my business.
are they to be hald liable also if there is an issue with one of there fixtures that causes an issue with my customers?

My supplier, who also is a huge supporter of CSA listed fixtures had sold me these fixtures, are they also to be held liable?

of course i will be held liable if there is a issue with my installation while using these fixtures.

these are the questions i am wondering about on good Friday. What are your thoughts on this?

Jason Fleming
Moonlighting

are you speaking of the company that nearly went under 1 yr ago?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
04-02-2010, 05:52 PM
It would be interesting to know if anyone can document a case or cases where unlisted outdoor lighting product caused structural or human casualty?

Bottom line is that it is a requirement that you install only properly listed and approved electrical components. Ask any electrical inspector. If you do not you are accepting full and total liability for any failures. If you slough this off and say "who cares, nothing has ever happened" and "it" happens on one of your jobs, you will be held liable. Oh and don't forget that once your insurer finds out that you were not installing approved product they will not honour any claim and will void your policy.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
04-02-2010, 06:01 PM
are you speaking of the company that nearly went under 1 yr ago?

Hey Sal, as a relatively new contributor here on Lawnsite, how about providing us with a bit more information about yourself and your business?

Company Name?
Experience?
Area of expertise?
Lighting experience?
Interests?

It is always nice to know the people you are engaged in a discourse with.

Thanks.

moonlighting
04-02-2010, 06:05 PM
Bottom line is that it is a requirement that you install only properly listed and approved electrical components. Ask any electrical inspector. If you do not you are accepting full and total liability for any failures. If you slough this off and say "who cares, nothing has ever happened" and "it" happens on one of your jobs, you will be held liable. Oh and don't forget that once your insurer finds out that you were not installing approved product they will not honour any claim and will void your policy.

all above is very true, so why are we able to buy un approved product? why is there not a CSA employee at every manufacturer? why can we import finished products from overseas that are not approved?
cost i would guess.

jason

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
04-02-2010, 06:31 PM
all above is very true, so why are we able to buy un approved product? why is there not a CSA employee at every manufacturer? why can we import finished products from overseas that are not approved?
cost i would guess.

jason

The onus of responsibility rides with the installer. Why this is the case I don't know. It makes much more sense to me to make it a manufacturerer/distributor responsibility.
Posted via Mobile Device

johnh
04-02-2010, 07:04 PM
The onus of responsibility rides with the installer. Why this is the case I don't know. It makes much more sense to me to make it a manufacturerer/distributor responsibility.
Posted via Mobile Device

In litigation, the liability would fall on all parties. It would not be limited to the installer, the distributor, and the manufacturer would all be named in a lawsuit.
All this being said, if the installation was inspected by the ESA (here in Ontario, Canada anyways), the product would be considered to be approved.
Rule 3 from Ontario Regulation 438/07 under the Electricity Act.
3. If an electrical product or device that is used in or connected to an electrical installation is inspected by the Authority, it is deemed to be approved if the installation and electrical product or device pass the inspection.
In this case, I suspect most liability would fall on the inspector or ESA, as they approved the installation.

John H.

JoeyD
04-02-2010, 07:59 PM
whose products are you talking about? I can only assume Nightscaping?

sal rodriguez
04-02-2010, 08:02 PM
Bottom line is that it is a requirement that you install only properly listed and approved electrical components. Ask any electrical inspector. If you do not you are accepting full and total liability for any failures. If you slough this off and say "who cares, nothing has ever happened" and "it" happens on one of your jobs, you will be held liable. Oh and don't forget that once your insurer finds out that you were not installing approved product they will not honour any claim and will void your policy.

If you are responding to my message then you are way off base. I was simply asking if there was any documented cases where non listed outdoor lighting product caused a fire. Do you also practice law? Do you have a license to do so? If not then perhaps you should leave the legal advice to those who practice law with the proper credentials. In some states giving legal advice without a license can get you into more trouble then installing outdoor lights without listings.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
04-02-2010, 08:14 PM
Hey Sal no sweat to me if you don't want to follow accurate and prudent advice. Go for it.. In time such practise will only open up an opportunity for someone else to do it right.

I don't suppose you would care to introduce yourself would you?


Posted via Mobile Device

moonlighting
04-02-2010, 08:21 PM
If you are responding to my message then you are way off base. I was simply asking if there was any documented cases where non listed outdoor lighting product caused a fire. Do you also practice law? Do you have a license to do so? If not then perhaps you should leave the legal advice to those who practice law with the proper credentials. In some states giving legal advice without a license can get you into more trouble then installing outdoor lights without listings.

hi sal, i am not aware of any documented case, although i am sure that there have been, how could there not be?

moonlighting
04-02-2010, 08:27 PM
whose products are you talking about? I can only assume Nightscaping?

it really doesnt matter, the thread was made to open others eyes to the potential liability that you open your company to.

Always inspect the items you are installing for inspection stickers!!

indylights
04-02-2010, 10:08 PM
Why is everyone so afraid to mention the manufacturer's name? If they are selling products that aren't properly listed, what is wrong with naming names and helping other contractors avoid installing the product? If it slipped past you guys it can slip past anyone, so why don't you just recognize the pink elephant in the room instead of continually not answering or talking around the question? We certainly don't have any problem ripping anyone else's product by name when we don't like them.

Scott Maloney
Sunflower Landscapes

sal rodriguez
04-02-2010, 10:14 PM
Why is everyone so afraid to mention the manufacturer's name? If they are selling products that aren't properly listed, what is wrong with naming names and helping other contractors avoid installing the product? If it slipped past you guys it can slip past anyone, so why don't you just recognize the pink elephant in the room instead of continually not answering or talking around the question? We certainly don't have any problem ripping anyone else's product by name when we don't like them.

Scott Maloney
Sunflower Landscapes

From what I can read into this by the original message it appears its being alleged that the manufacturer falsely represented the products listings. Follow up posts by others seemed to validate this. In other words the manufacturer stated the products were listed and they apparently are not or were but listings have expired or whatever.

irrig8r
04-02-2010, 10:45 PM
From what I can read into this by the original message it appears its being alleged that the manufacturer falsely represented the products listings. Follow up posts by others seemed to validate this. In other words the manufacturer stated the products were listed and they apparently are not or were but listings have expired or whatever.


I wouldn't say "falsely represented" exactly, maybe more of a an oversight... maybe even involving something like things getting put on the back burner by someone who no longer works there.

Could happen. But that's just my guess.

Meanwhile the manufacturer assures us they are working on the problem. So maybe that's the end of the story.... for now.

irrig8r
04-02-2010, 10:49 PM
Why is everyone so afraid to mention the manufacturer's name? If they are selling products that aren't properly listed, what is wrong with naming names and helping other contractors avoid installing the product? If it slipped past you guys it can slip past anyone, so why don't you just recognize the pink elephant in the room instead of continually not answering or talking around the question? We certainly don't have any problem ripping anyone else's product by name when we don't like them.

Scott Maloney
Sunflower Landscapes

I think Jason's post above yours is really the bottom line. What was it that Reagan said...."trust but verify"?

Ultimately the burden of proof is on the installer... no matter which products you install.

BrandonV
04-02-2010, 10:59 PM
at least those of us in the dark have no idea whose product it is!

sal rodriguez
04-02-2010, 11:04 PM
I wouldn't say "falsely represented" exactly, maybe more of a an oversight... maybe even involving something like things getting put on the back burner by someone who no longer works there.

Could happen. But that's just my guess.

Meanwhile the manufacturer assures us they are working on the problem. So maybe that's the end of the story.... for now.

If it's just an oversight then I question the reason for making the post in the first place. Why get everyone riled up if it's being handled and taken care of.

seolatlanta
04-03-2010, 12:12 AM
Hey Sal ,

It seems you are the only one riled up here. I dont think I am the only one here who seems to think you have a chip somewhere , your tone is mostly negative.

I dont post much here but I do look and read the forum daily. I dont understand your point . You dont give us much info about yourself and on your profile you state your company provides irrigation services.

If I am wrong , so be it. My guess is that someone didnt want to mention the manufacturer by name out of common courtesy. Its hard enough out there for everybody as it is....

irrig8r
04-03-2010, 04:36 AM
If it's just an oversight then I question the reason for making the post in the first place. Why get everyone riled up if it's being handled and taken care of.

Just speculating, but maybe Jason expressing himself here caught the attention of the manufacturer... anyway, I bet he'll update us when he hears more.

RLDesign
04-03-2010, 10:11 AM
Hey Sal ,

It seems you are the only one riled up here. I dont think I am the only one here who seems to think you have a chip somewhere , your tone is mostly negative.

I dont post much here but I do look and read the forum daily. I dont understand your point . You dont give us much info about yourself and on your profile you state your company provides irrigation services.

If I am wrong , so be it. My guess is that someone didnt want to mention the manufacturer by name out of common courtesy. Its hard enough out there for everybody as it is....

Hey Sal,

I do not know you, but I agree that you seem to never say who you are or where you are from. But you do have a great deal of negative BS to throw at the fire... just my opinion of course. Any chance you want to buck-up and stop being a ghost. I like to know who I posting too. Or are you one of those people who just rants and rants without ever saying who you are?

Best regards,

Tanek
Reynolds Lighting Design

S&MLL
04-03-2010, 01:38 PM
Relax people.

The Lighting Geek
04-03-2010, 05:53 PM
maybe he is Pete Scalia reincarnate? hmmm? LOL!

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
04-03-2010, 05:58 PM
Tommy you are a wise man! :)

David Gretzmier
04-03-2010, 09:13 PM
The asking for a documented case of customer damage, and by that I guess we are talking about fire, from a nonlisted item is a legit question only how it relates to another- how many documented cases of house fire are from fixtures that ARE UL listed. given the thousands of electrical fires that happen every year, Frankly they probably happen every day. There are many listings that abound, and that has been discussed ad nauseum, but if you guys want to throw around legal stuff, I have had both my attorney and my insurance agent notarize a document to me concerning fire on customers property and my business.

The bottom line is I had them state that I am covered no matter what the reason, by my screw up, my employees screw up, by my choice of what I install, or the manufacturor. I pay specifically for the professional professional insurance for either case. while I may be liable in either case, I pay for 2 million dollars liability, property and medical coverage for either event. The main reason is to not go bankrupt. My policy also pays all legal fees on top of any settlement. Just thinking about this, Probably in 2010 or 2011 I will bump my limits to 4 million.

most attorneys will tell you that folks will sue you regardless of what you use, how it is listed, or how you installed it. While you may think that the listing will shield you from liability in court, you are wrong. it may be what inspectors look for to pass your install. Further if you think that if you install it properly and it will shield you in court, you are wrong. if a jury finds you liable and assigns damages, you pay them. period. You may appeal thinking the truth will set you free, but my attorney made a clear distinction between what is fair and what happens in court are two very different things. You need to be covered period.

In the event of fire, my attorney put it to me this way- The house burns down and possibly people die. Thier homeowners insurance, mediacl insurance, and life insurance pays damage claims. then, thier insurance attorneys and or thier heirs' attorneys will go after you and whoever made the lights. They will sue you to the maximum extent of your policy coverage, working with your current carrier to limit their losses. and then go after the manufacturor. if your policy is lacking, or the manu's, they will then go after your business and personal assets, and the manufacturors profits as well.

You may choose to believe me or not, but I would advise anyone to go talk to thier attorney and their insurance agent.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
04-03-2010, 09:39 PM
That is a lot to digest. I can make it simpler... Install unlisted products and watch all of those pros you pay scurry away and leave you alone to twist in the wind. Letters of indemnity or none, there is an expectation of due diligence you are not considering. Posted via Mobile Device

sal rodriguez
04-04-2010, 04:19 PM
That is a lot to digest. I can make it simpler... Install unlisted products and watch all of those pros you pay scurry away and leave you alone to twist in the wind. Letters of indemnity or none, there is an expectation of due diligence you are not considering. Posted via Mobile Device

I have not taken a position either way. Why I've become the whipping boy is anyone's guess.

It never ceases to amaze me how much unsubstantiated conjecture stated as fact that is spewed on this board.

Scare tactics used to make a sale or sway someone to your thinking is what bottom feeding trunk slammers do.

just remember Having a listing or not does not guarantee the safety of a product.

Put a listed product in unsafe hands and its anybody's guess.

Some will try to use any angle they can for competitive purpose.

There are some franchise electical contracting companies locally who train their techs to up sell up sell up sell at any cost.

Go into homes for small minor service calls and create a huge job by telling the homeowner they have potentially unsafe wiring in their homes.
Even making them sign a document that the company is not liable if they refuse the work.
Fear of loss is a much stronger motivating emotion than sense of gain.

If you are that concrened about it then contact your insurance carrier and lawyer and find out for yourself what your liability is regarding listed and unlisted product.

Some of you guys really have got to get an opinion of your own instead of playing follow the leader. Do your own investigating before believing any so called self proclaimed internet lighting guru's advice.

That not only goes for products discussed here but any other issue that comes up.

How do rumours get started. By one person stating something and others agreeing and spreading it around without investigating and verifying for themselves.

They say perceptions are stronger than reality. That is proven by this message board.

moonlighting
04-04-2010, 06:13 PM
I have not taken a position either way. Why I've become the whipping boy is anyone's guess.

It never ceases to amaze me how much unsubstantiated conjecture stated as fact that is spewed on this board.

Scare tactics used to make a sale or sway someone to your thinking is what bottom feeding trunk slammers do.

just remember Having a listing or not does not guarantee the safety of a product.

Put a listed product in unsafe hands and its anybody's guess.

Some will try to use any angle they can for competitive purpose.

There are some franchise electical contracting companies locally who train their techs to up sell up sell up sell at any cost.

Go into homes for small minor service calls and create a huge job by telling the homeowner they have potentially unsafe wiring in their homes.
Even making them sign a document that the company is not liable if they refuse the work.
Fear of loss is a much stronger motivating emotion than sense of gain.

If you are that concrened about it then contact your insurance carrier and lawyer and find out for yourself what your liability is regarding listed and unlisted product.

Some of you guys really have got to get an opinion of your own instead of playing follow the leader. Do your own investigating before believing any so called self proclaimed internet lighting guru's advice.

That not only goes for products discussed here but any other issue that comes up.

How do rumours get started. By one person stating something and others agreeing and spreading it around without investigating and verifying for themselves.

They say perceptions are stronger than reality. That is proven by this message board.

Thanks Sal for your insight and opinions! I posted for just that, discussion and opions. i am thankfull you took the time to post, and i am sure that most posters here both give advice with the best of intentions and also take advice with a grain of salt.

jason

David Gretzmier
04-04-2010, 11:32 PM
The bottom line is you should talk to your insurance agent and attorney about your exposure, whatever you use, whatever your employees do , or whatever happens- will you lose everything? are you truly covered? Just using listed components does not cover you, period. If you wish to believe that, fine. You guys put your belief in products that you thought were listed. therefore, your insurance needs to cover you no matter what you use.