PDA

View Full Version : Watering at night


scruff33
04-19-2010, 03:39 PM
Conventional wisdom says it's best to water the lawn early in the morning. Watering at night is risky because cool, wet ground is just asking for a lawn fungus. Makes sense.

But... how risky is it? All of my neighbors pull out the sprinklers in the evening, and their lawns all look just fine. Living in the midwest we get a lot of hot and humid days. That usually translates to early evening storms and showers. Yet nobody mentions this as being a potential lawn problem. How is that any different than sprinkling at night?

mark123
04-19-2010, 04:05 PM
Watering at night is much better than not watering at all. Sure watering in the morning is ideal but do it when you can. I'm sure not going to take time off of work to just water my lawn.

scruff33
04-19-2010, 04:20 PM
I'm sure not going to take time off of work to just water my lawn.

LOL. Now that would be dedication! What I find myself doing is setting up my sprinklers (spigot and hose method) in the appropriate zones the night before. I set my alarm to go off at 4:00am, get up and turn on the water, then back to bed. Before I leave for work a little after 8:00am I turn them off. Seems like a lot but my tuna cans still only average about 1/2" of water after all that time.

Kind of a pain, but its supposed to be the best time to water. From what I've seen most standard automatic timers only allow a maximum of 2 hours.

upidstay
04-20-2010, 08:27 AM
They sell timers for sprinklers. You can get a nice one at the Depot for around $50. You actually get up at 4am to water your lawn???

As far as the original post goes, NO you should never water at night if you can avoid it. Early morning is best as far as water efficiency goes. A mid afternoon watering is great, as it cools the plants off, but is very inefficient due to evaporation loss.

maustm
04-20-2010, 09:44 AM
Yeah, I used to have a multizone sprinkler timer from HD, It had a 4 way spigot splitter, a timer and some controllers that connect to the hoses, I could set it and leave it. It was not bad for the smaller yard I had. I actually ended up running hoses along the 2x4's in my fence and put some "fixed" sprinklers in. I think it was made by sunmate. One thing I did have to do was tighten down my spigot so there was no leak when I left the water in the on position, and they recommend ou have an anti-siphon spigot.

Kiril
04-20-2010, 09:47 AM
Install a real irrigation system and be done with it.

rainbowss
04-22-2010, 07:49 PM
Watering at noon is much..much..much better than watering at evening/morning. Get one of timers from home depot and an oscillating sprinkler and water like .25inch at noon every other day. Even though I got a Hunter system installed which I have yet to open for the year, I like the way oscillating sprinkler sprays... almost like in mini cycles. Try this and you will see green. Even the grass you think are dead from winter will wake up flourishing. At least, it did for me.

ajslands
04-22-2010, 07:53 PM
Watering at noon is much..much..much better than watering at evening/morning. Get one of timers from home depot and an oscillating sprinkler and water like .25inch at noon every other day. Even though I got a Hunter system installed which I have yet to open for the year, I like the way oscillating sprinkler sprays... almost like in mini cycles. Try this and you will see green. Even the grass you think are dead from winter will wake up flourishing. At least, it did for me.

How bout 3/4"-1" instead.
Posted via Mobile Device

rainbowss
04-22-2010, 08:00 PM
i dont see the logic. i'm not watering for a tree :)

rainbowss
04-22-2010, 08:24 PM
Forgot to add, I believe watering deeply not only wastes water which grasses will not receive but it will leech the nutrients from the top soil further down through osmosis which increases the need for grasses to be fertilized.

Deep watering is usually intended for plants/trees that grow roots wayy down or if you want to flush down too much fertilizer, etc. No matter how deep and infrequent you water, grasses will not ever, ever, ever grow roots that long. That is like saying, if I jump high enough, maybe I will be as tall as Mr. Jordan.

I think this is another myth of the internet. Silly internet, grasses are for kids. ;)

mdlwn1
04-22-2010, 08:33 PM
Forgot to add, I believe watering deeply not only wastes water which grasses will not receive but it will leech the nutrients from the top soil further down through osmosis which increases the need for grasses to be fertilized.

Deep watering is usually intended for plants/trees that grow roots wayy down or if you want to flush down too much fertilizer, etc. No matter how deep and infrequent you water, grasses will not ever, ever, ever grow roots that long. That is like saying, if I jump high enough, maybe I will be as tall as Mr. Jordan.

I think this is another myth of the internet. Silly internet, grasses are for kids. ;)

Maybe you should look at ANY university website...or ANY turf manual before you begin thinking you will offer advice. Secondly, it all depends on soil texture...deep watering may mean 5 minutes here...or 60 there.

To the OP...as long as your lawn is not fed too heavily, watering in the evening isnt a big of a deal. However...if you have that lush thick green lawn in the spring....your f'ed eventually unless you keep it on the dry side.

ajslands
04-22-2010, 08:53 PM
I got my informaton from a landscape book, made by Ortho,
Posted via Mobile Device

rainbowss
04-22-2010, 09:04 PM
Maybe you should look at ANY university website...or ANY turf manual before you begin thinking you will offer advice. Secondly, it all depends on soil texture...deep watering may mean 5 minutes here...or 60 there.
Why would I want to look at some university study? Please enlighten me? Do I need a study to see when the sun is out? It is real funny when people think they are too smart... they completely ignore simple logic but derive the most complicated, twisted, convoluted road that reaches no where. Example? Please refer to History!

I don't care what soil it is, 1inch of water will leech tremendous mineral from the top soil where the grass roots are. But this is if it is done all at once. If one were to cycle through intervals, there should not be a problem but unnecessary. Again, it is nothing but water wasted.

mdlwn, before you pedicure other's post :dancing:, please go back and read all posts as I was replying to someone's post. Perhaps you need a university guidance for this also?

Keep it Simple Stupid. :hammerhead:

P.S. And 'deep watering' usually means just that, deep watering. :)

Kiril
04-22-2010, 09:30 PM
Well .... given my job is primarily managing and consulting on irrigation & soils, I am here to say you are both wrong.

rainbowss
04-22-2010, 09:31 PM
Well .... given my job is primarily managing and consulting on irrigation & soils, I am here to say you are both wrong.
I have time to spare on this fine evening. Please do form your thesis. Remember, everything is a thesis. :)

mdlwn1
04-22-2010, 09:32 PM
Well .... given my job is primarily managing and consulting on irrigation & soils, I am here to say you are both wrong.

Dont be a fa.g...it's situation specific....

Kiril
04-22-2010, 09:43 PM
Dont be a fa.g...it's situation specific....

Nice language. :rolleyes: FYI, I was talking to the other two, but I can include you in the group as well if you want.

mdlwn1
04-22-2010, 09:45 PM
Nice language. :rolleyes: FYI, I was talking to the other two, but I can include you in the group as well if you want.

Sorry...I was joking.........:)

cgaengineer
04-22-2010, 10:17 PM
Install a real irrigation system and be done with it.

You make it sound so easy. Just get up one morning and shell out $5000 for an irrigation system that you might not be able to use in many places do to total water bans and restrictions.

AI Inc
04-23-2010, 06:27 AM
Install a real irrigation system and be done with it.

What he said.

cgaengineer
04-23-2010, 07:11 AM
What he said.

Come on Steve...some people are not that fortunate.

I haven't installed one because we have total watering bans around here come June/July and all outdoor watering is prohibited. A well is prohibited because of the small lot size and the cost of one is about $5000.

So if you install an irrigation system around here and you are on city/county water its a total waste....unless you have a thing for donating money to an irrigation company.
Posted via Mobile Device

AI Inc
04-23-2010, 07:12 AM
Well a total water ban would make this thread mute , no?

cgaengineer
04-23-2010, 07:16 AM
Well a total water ban would make this thread mute , no?

I see your point, but not really. I am able to water right now and I watered last night after aeration but the expense of an irrigation system is something that is really not worth it if you can't use it during the driest times.
Posted via Mobile Device

AI Inc
04-23-2010, 07:23 AM
Studies have shown that your ROI on an irrigation system at reslae is 104%

cgaengineer
04-23-2010, 07:34 AM
Studies have shown that your ROI on an irrigation system at reslae is 104%

I would believe that if you could use them around here. Maybe when they build the new watershed lake I will install one.
Posted via Mobile Device

AI Inc
04-23-2010, 07:36 AM
In fact I think congress need to pass irrigation reform with a requirement that everyone has to buy my product.Of course there would be no ban on pre existing conditions , ya know , like a burnt lawn.

cgaengineer
04-23-2010, 07:36 AM
Back to the original question which is watering at night.

Watering at night is not the best time but its better than not watering at all in most cases.
Posted via Mobile Device

AI Inc
04-23-2010, 07:39 AM
That says it right there. I have customers who have low gpm wells and large lawns. They need to water am and pm.5% will get a fungus watering at night. 100% will get a burnt lawn not wateringa night. Key is to try and let the cycle finish before dusk.

cgaengineer
04-23-2010, 07:40 AM
In fact I think congress need to pass irrigation reform with a requirement that everyone has to buy my product.Of course there would be no ban on pre existing conditions , ya know , like a burnt lawn.

Its possible and I'm all for it, you get it to congress and get it signed and I'll buy one. If they would stop letting illegals into GA we would not have a water crisis every summer. Too many people not enough water.

At least an irrigation system would put common everyday people to work and grass and plants are essential to our precious environment so the tree huggers should support you as well.
Posted via Mobile Device

cgaengineer
04-23-2010, 07:42 AM
Around here its mostly bermuda lawns...I have never heard of anyone with a fungus problem with bermuda. I would assume fungus would be more common with cool season grasses.
Posted via Mobile Device

cgaengineer
04-23-2010, 07:44 AM
If we are not in a total ban around here you only option is late evening, night and early morning watering.
Posted via Mobile Device

cgaengineer
04-23-2010, 07:48 AM
Illegals come to GA to work illegally for irrigation contractors installing irrigation systems that we cannot use because we have too many illegals.

Kiril
04-23-2010, 10:10 AM
I have time to spare on this fine evening. Please do form your thesis. Remember, everything is a thesis. :)

Not a thesis ..... well established information on soils and irrigation scheduling that you will not find in your "ortho" joke book. Let's review the questionable or downright incorrect statements.

Watering at noon is much..much..much better than watering at evening/morning.

Wrong. Watering at noon not only increases evaporative losses, but in some areas where wind increases throughout the day, you also run the risk of increasing losses due to wind drift.

Get one of timers from home depot and an oscillating sprinkler and water like .25inch at noon every other day.

Beyond the fact you are just pulling an AR out of thin air, why even state an AR when using an oscillating sprinkler? You don't actually believe you have good DU with this sprinkler ... do you?

How bout 3/4"-1" instead.

Once again, pulling AR out of thin air.

I don't care what soil it is, 1inch of water will leech tremendous mineral from the top soil where the grass roots are. But this is if it is done all at once. If one were to cycle through intervals, there should not be a problem but unnecessary. Again, it is nothing but water wasted.

This is just plain ignorant.

Kiril
04-23-2010, 10:17 AM
You make it sound so easy. Just get up one morning and shell out $5000 for an irrigation system that you might not be able to use in many places do to total water bans and restrictions.

Well, if water is that scarce in your area, then you should not be installing high water use, regionally inappropriate landscapes ... now should you?

Now back on topic .... I feel the biggest problem with fungus and night watering is spore dispersal. Chances are your turf is going to get wet at night (depending on where you live) even if you don't irrigate or it doesn't rain. That said .... if night is your only window of opportunity to irrigate, then you really have no choice ..... do you?

ajslands
04-23-2010, 10:23 AM
3/4"-1" per week is out of thin air?!!!



Weird! :laughing: :laughing:
Posted via Mobile Device

cgaengineer
04-23-2010, 10:24 AM
Well, if water is that scarce in your area, then you should not be installing high water use, regionally inappropriate landscapes ... now should you?

Now back on topic .... I feel the biggest problem with fungus and night watering is spore dispersal. Chances are your turf is going to get wet at night (depending on where you live) even if you don't irrigate or it doesn't rain. That said .... if night is your only window of opportunity to irrigate, then you really have no choice ..... do you?

Yeah rocks and cactus...great idea. We are in GA not the desert. I'm pretty sure bermuda grass is appropriate for our area since even with little or no water it still survives but it looks its best with .5 inches per week minimum.
Posted via Mobile Device

cgaengineer
04-23-2010, 10:28 AM
3/4"-1" per week is out of thin air?!!!



Weird! :laughing: :laughing:
Posted via Mobile Device

He would argue with you just to argue.
Posted via Mobile Device

ajslands
04-23-2010, 10:29 AM
Who me or him?
Posted via Mobile Device

cgaengineer
04-23-2010, 10:35 AM
Who me or him?
Posted via Mobile Device

Him...kiril
Posted via Mobile Device

Kiril
04-23-2010, 10:38 AM
3/4"-1" per week is out of thin air?!!!

Yes .... it is.

Ignoring site dependent variables ..... tell me ...what is your current ETo.

milike
04-23-2010, 03:43 PM
They sell timers for sprinklers. You can get a nice one at the Depot for around $50. You actually get up at 4am to water your lawn???

As far as the original post goes, NO you should never water at night if you can avoid it. Early morning is best as far as water efficiency goes. A mid afternoon watering is great, as it cools the plants off, but is very inefficient due to evaporation loss.

what if it rains I night?

should we go out to dry the grass??





.

cgaengineer
04-23-2010, 03:47 PM
what if it rains I night?

should we go out to dry the grass??




.

Yes, get a bunch of Sham Wows...they are made in Germany and you know the Germans make good stuff.
Posted via Mobile Device

rainbowss
04-23-2010, 03:49 PM
Not a thesis ..... well established information on soils and irrigation scheduling that you will not find in your "ortho" joke book. Let's review the questionable or downright incorrect statements.

-Okay Sir! Here we go! yay

Wrong. Watering at noon not only increases evaporative losses, but in some areas where wind increases throughout the day, you also run the risk of increasing losses due to wind drift.

-yes, this all seem to be about US don't it? WE don't water at noon because WE lose water. We water at morning/evening because WE save water. WE don't care about WHEN the plants NEED water, WE only care about the money in our pockets. DO YOU EVEN KNOW HOW PLANTS LOSE WATER YOU SILLY non-ignorant mess?

Beyond the fact you are just pulling an AR out of thin air, why even state an AR when using an oscillating sprinkler? You don't actually believe you have good DU with this sprinkler ... do you?

--I have no clue what you just stated, so this is not even worth commenting.

Once again, pulling AR out of thin air.

--Again, plain English will do fine. Don't be pulling acronyms like you have a PhD in watering plants. Talk to me like a child.

This is just plain ignorant.

--Yes, I am ignorant. I am ignorant of mostly anything humans like to say. I don't care if you are a scientist or the other side. I like to form my own conclusions from my senses.




NOW, since we got that cleared up. Let me provide you with actual data on when NATURE waters and its result. Yes, that is right, Nature... not some study done by university, or soil testing/whatever mess you look at.

Tropical Rainforest Precipitation. Google it, learn for yourself. Learn about transpiration from the trees, shade, sunlight, etc. Lawn acts exactly like a mini-rainforest.

"A distinctive diurnal pattern of cumulus cloud development in the morning, precipitation in the early afternoon, followed by dissipating clouds towards the late afternoon is typical."

An example...

Hourly Rainfall Distribution for Kuala Lumpur
http://i40.tinypic.com/311qvdz.jpg

Now, if that doesn't convince you. Then go research about Greenhouse.

Still not convinced? Go live outside for 24hours. You will notice the highest amount of liquid consumed will be in early afternoon.

Forgive me, I am an idiot. "just pulling an AR out of thin air" :hammerhead:

P.S. The healthiest part of my lawn is where my dryer ventilation is. :D

Kiril
04-23-2010, 03:50 PM
Yes, get a bunch of Sham Wows...they are made in Germany and you know the Germans make good stuff.
Posted via Mobile Device

Geez, and here I thought you just went outside with your sidearm and start shooting wildly into the sky, skipping around shouting yeehaw, and occasionally use the heat from the muzzle to dry the grass. :laugh:

cgaengineer
04-23-2010, 04:01 PM
Geez, and here I thought you just went outside with your sidearm and start shooting wildly into the sky, skipping around shouting yeehaw, and occasionally use the heat from the muzzle to dry the grass. :laugh:

If shooting into the sky would punch rain holes in clouds I'd do it, otherwise my sidearm stays well on my side.

Since you are from Kalifornia I figure you hugged trees and held hands with men...maybe we are both wrong.
Posted via Mobile Device

Kiril
04-23-2010, 04:03 PM
NOW, since we got that cleared up. Let me provide you with actual data on when NATURE waters and its result. Yes, that is right, Nature... not some study done by university, or soil testing/whatever mess you look at.

ROFL ... do you live in Malaysia? What does your chart have anything to do with irrigating in the United States or more importantly on any one single site? Get real dude.

Forgive me, I am an idiot. "just pulling an AR out of thin air" :hammerhead:

Apparently you are an idiot, because even someone who knows almost nothing about irrigation would know what the abbreviation AR stands for. It was a test to see if you have even the most basic knowledge .... apparently you don't. I suggest you stick to cutting grass and leave everything else to those of us who are qualified.

Kiril
04-23-2010, 04:05 PM
If shooting into the sky would punch rain holes in clouds I'd do it, otherwise my sidearm stays well on my side.

Since you are from Kalifornia I figure you hugged trees and held hands with men...maybe we are both wrong.

At least we don't engage in inbreeding out here. :laugh:

rainbowss
04-23-2010, 04:11 PM
ROFL ... do you live in Malaysia? What does your chart have anything to do with irrigating in the United States or more importantly on any one single site? Get real dude.

--No, I do not live in Malaysia but clearly you haven't noticed that I pointed that graph as an EXAMPLE and it's relation to a lawn. I don't leave any loopholes in my posts so don't bother picking it apart.

Apparently you are an idiot, because even someone who knows almost nothing about irrigation would know what the abbreviation AR stands for. It was a test to see if you have even the most basic knowledge .... apparently you don't. I suggest you stick to cutting grass and leave everything else to those of us who are qualified.

--Are you forgetting what section of the forum you are on Mister? Homeowner Assistance Forum

--English 101 is around the corner to your right. Wait, my right, never yours. :dancing:



Adding 10 characters. :laugh:

cgaengineer
04-23-2010, 04:21 PM
At least we don't engage in inbreeding out here. :laugh:

That's Alabama.
Posted via Mobile Device

Kiril
04-23-2010, 04:30 PM
No, I do not live in Malaysia but clearly you haven't noticed that I pointed that graph as an EXAMPLE and it's relation to a lawn. I don't leave any loopholes in my posts so don't bother picking it apart.

There is no relation between a rain forest and a lawn .... other than they both contain plants.

Are you forgetting what section of the forum you are on Mister? Homeowner Assistance Forum

I'm sorry .... does that translate into bad information forum? Either present the correct information, or don't bother to post.

rainbowss
04-23-2010, 10:30 PM
There is no relation between a rain forest and a lawn .... other than they both contain plants.

--Uhh, think about it next time you set your cutting height. Hold on while I count the number of grass in my lawn. Doh.

I'm sorry .... does that translate into bad information forum? Either present the correct information, or don't bother to post.

--Exactly, bad information everywhere. That is why I responded to your response. :dancing:



..........

Kiril
04-23-2010, 10:49 PM
--Uhh, think about it next time you set your cutting height. Hold on while I count the number of grass in my lawn. Doh.

And you continue with the ignorance.

Exactly, bad information everywhere. That is why I responded to your response.

It is quite apparent you know nothing about irrigation or plants dude. Why do you continue to piss into the wind here?

So hotshot ..... tell me what this equation represents and how it relates to irrigation.

rainbowss
04-23-2010, 11:00 PM
And you continue with the ignorance.



It is quite apparent you know nothing about irrigation or plants dude. Why do you continue to piss into the wind here?

So hotshot ..... tell me what this equation represents and how it relates to irrigation.

Because you are just arguing with me for the sake of arguing while providing no relevant information in your apologia, I shall concede.

*trucewhiteflag*

Kiril
04-23-2010, 11:10 PM
Because you are just arguing with me for the sake of arguing while providing no relevant information in your apologia, I shall concede.

The only person arguing here dude is you. To be perfectly honest, I have given you a huge amount of latitude ... just ask cgaengineer or ai inc.

But why not explain to me why I should spend the time to educate you when you have already displayed the fact that you think you already know all the answers?

ajslands
04-23-2010, 11:34 PM
There is no relation between a rain forest and a lawn .... other than they both contain plants.

abd insects, and they're both green usually, abd they'res some animals too!
Posted via Mobile Device

cgaengineer
04-23-2010, 11:42 PM
Kiril does like to argue, and I feel confident he knows his shat about grass...even though I don't agree with him politically. He did cut you some slack though...he can go on and on like the Energizer Bunny.
Posted via Mobile Device

Kiril
04-23-2010, 11:42 PM
abd insects, and they're both green usually, abd they'res some animals too!
Posted via Mobile Device

Hey man, you forgot soil, air, water, rocks, sun, wind, etc....... Heck, might as well go though the periodic table too. :rolleyes:

This thread is about irrigation at night, and FYI, comparing your lawn to a rain forest is beyond ignorant.

ajslands
04-23-2010, 11:43 PM
And you continue with the ignorance.



It is quite apparent you know nothing about irrigation or plants dude. Why do you continue to piss into the wind here?

So hotshot ..... tell me what this equation represents and how it relates to irrigation.

well there's some deltas in their for sure, and some brackets too! Q probably stands for quanity, p probably stands for pressure, t is probably temp
Posted via Mobile Device

Kiril
04-23-2010, 11:46 PM
Kiril does like to argue

To be fair cga .... I really don't like to argue .... now sedge on the other hand. That said, I don't like inaccurate/incorrect information even more. When someone starts throwing around suggestions and information they clearly don't even have a rudimentary understanding of .... I AM going to take issue with it if time permits.

Oh and again .... I have no politics dude .... I think it is all foolish and corrupt.

Kiril
04-24-2010, 12:47 AM
well there's some deltas in their for sure, and some brackets too! Q probably stands for quanity, p probably stands for pressure, t is probably temp

Ahhh, what the hell, I'll entertain your guesses.

That is not p, it is a rho ... and T is the only correct guess .... but the temperature of what and what units?

You correctly identified the delta's, but what do they stand for? (hint: they are not equivalent in this instance)

ajslands
04-24-2010, 01:35 AM
Well it's either Kelvins, cellcius/centagrade, or farenhight.


And AR stands for app rate or maybe absorbtion rate, Q is probaby flow rate per acre; as in gpm. Uhh E I would guess s probably effiency Most likely of the pump... AE: app effienecy I would assume!
Posted via Mobile Device

rainbowss
04-24-2010, 07:00 AM
Since I am putting all my thoughts here, someone might actually think of my posts as vaguely beneficial. So might as well add this.

The problem with deep watering, is that you ALWAYS have to deep water! Create deep roots, and you will always have to go for that deep roots. Keep it simple STUPID.

And deep roots does not equate to less watering as shallow roots. Pure nonsense.

No need for shout-outs from the peanut gallery please.

AI Inc
04-24-2010, 07:18 AM
Since I am putting all my thoughts here, someone might actually think of my posts as vaguely beneficial. So might as well add this.

The problem with deep watering, is that you ALWAYS have to deep water! Create deep roots, and you will always have to go for that deep roots. Keep it simple STUPID.

And deep roots does not equate to less watering as shallow roots. Pure nonsense.

No need for shout-outs from the peanut gallery please.

90% of my customers dont have the correct soil structure to actualy hold water. So without amending the soil, deep roots is a pipe dream at best.

Kiril
04-24-2010, 07:36 AM
Well it's either Kelvins, cellcius/centagrade, or farenhight.

C

And AR stands for app rate or maybe absorbtion rate, Q is probaby flow rate per acre; as in gpm. Uhh E I would guess s probably effiency Most likely of the pump... AE: app effienecy I would assume!

If you keep guessing, you will never get it. And your first guess for AR was correct.

Kiril
04-24-2010, 07:42 AM
Since I am putting all my thoughts here, someone might actually think of my posts as vaguely beneficial. So might as well add this.

The problem with deep watering, is that you ALWAYS have to deep water! Create deep roots, and you will always have to go for that deep roots. Keep it simple STUPID.

And deep roots does not equate to less watering as shallow roots. Pure nonsense.

No need for shout-outs from the peanut gallery please.

Really? Your statements are so ridiculous, but yet no one can comment?

There is NO problem with deep watering if your roots have the potential to get to the depth of watering. I recommend encouraging rooting depths to 12" in clay .... 12 - 18" in sandy soils. If this means watering at differential depths as the root system develops so be it.

Not only does deeper roots equate to less watering, but also to more healthy turf. I don't know where you get your information, but it is so far from being true it is not even funny.

Kiril
04-24-2010, 07:44 AM
90% of my customers dont have the correct soil structure to actualy hold water. So without amending the soil, deep roots is a pipe dream at best.

Hog wash. I've seen turf roots exceeding 4 feet in a sand.

ajslands
04-24-2010, 07:48 AM
So if you lived on an island in the middle of a lake or river and the island was like a giant chunk of clay, and the water table was only a few feet down, would that hold water well? Like are we te 10 %?
Posted via Mobile Device

Kiril
04-24-2010, 07:58 AM
So if you lived on an island in the middle of a lake or river and the island was like a giant chunk of clay, and the water table was only a few feet down, would that hold water well? Like are we te 10 %?

That would depend on the homogeneity of the clay. It is possible the capillary fringe could extend 12" or more, especially in a homogeneous clay. Clays also have a much high WHC than sands.

AI Inc
04-24-2010, 08:06 AM
Hog wash. I've seen turf roots exceeding 4 feet in a sand.

Turf , or fescue , aka that weedy shat some would like to call grass.

Kiril
04-24-2010, 08:24 AM
Turf , or fescue , aka that weedy shat some would like to call grass.

How about KBG?

17.7 inches (max depth measured): http://agron.scijournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/71/3/490

5 - 7 feet: http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010139fieldcroproots/010139ch11.html

Note, that second reference has more than just KBG, and details just how deep the roots of quite a few grass types can get .... all of which exceed 12".

rainbowss
04-24-2010, 08:57 AM
Really? Your statements are so ridiculous, but yet no one can comment?

There is NO problem with deep watering if your roots have the potential to get to the depth of watering. I recommend encouraging rooting depths to 12" in clay .... 12 - 18" in sandy soils. If this means watering at differential depths as the root system develops so be it.

Not only does deeper roots equate to less watering, but also to more healthy turf. I don't know where you get your information, but it is so far from being true it is not even funny.
meh, you are such an idiot.

With deep roots, the potential to underwater increases. With shallow roots, the potential to overwater increases. That being said, one assumes, like you, that water stays at that level for eternity. MEH! Talk about saving water... NOT

FYI, when I said peanut gallery, I meant you. Again, I don't understand where you learned your comprehension from.

Kiril
04-24-2010, 09:09 AM
meh, you are such an idiot.

With deep roots, the potential to underwater increases. With shallow roots, the potential to overwater increases. That being said, one assumes, like you, that water stays at that level for eternity. MEH! Talk about saving water... NOT

FYI, when I said peanut gallery, I meant you. Again, I don't understand where you learned your comprehension from.

WOW! :dizzy: How can one argue against that logic.

BTW .... my "learned comprehension" includes over 250 units of higher education, an AS degree in Computer Engineering, a BS degree in Soil Science & Hydrology from UCDavis and 3-5 courses from a second BS degree in Applied Plant Biology, also from UCDavis ... which just happens to be one of the top Ag schools in the country, in the event you weren't aware of that fact

rainbowss
04-24-2010, 05:14 PM
WOW! :dizzy: How can one argue against that logic.

BTW .... my "learned comprehension" includes over 250 units of higher education, an AS degree in Computer Engineering, a BS degree in Soil Science & Hydrology from UCDavis and 3-5 courses from a second BS degree in Applied Plant Biology, also from UCDavis ... which just happens to be one of the top Ag schools in the country, in the event you weren't aware of that fact

No wonder, sometimes one tries sooooooooooo hard to think outside the box and forget what is already inside. :dancing:

P.S. Like my signature? I made it thinking of you, Sir. :D

rainbowss
04-24-2010, 10:33 PM
Kiril, someone just posted this over at the gardenweb. I thought I would post it for you since this article advocates everything I have stated in this thread.


Amount and Timing of Irrigation

Generally, lawn turf requires 0.5 to 1.5 inches of water per week. The amount of water you apply will vary, depending on the weather conditions and rainfall. In periods of high temperatures coupled with full sun and high wind, lawns will require more water. It is important to note that the water can come from either rainfall or irrigation. Light, frequent applications of water are much more productive than heavy applications once a week. Remember that turf roots are naturally shorter during hot and dry weather, and water moved past the root zone is of no benefit. Research at Michigan State University also indicates that damage from certain turf diseases and insects is reduced when light, frequent (daily) irrigation is used rather than heavy, infrequent watering.

That corresponds to 0.1 to 0.2 inch of water. Applying this amount could correspond to 10 to 60 minutes of irrigation, depending on the output of your system. The rate and pattern of delivery for your system can be measured by placing cans in the lawn throughout the irrigation pattern. Turn on the system for one hour and measure the amount collected. Use this information to determine how long it will take to provide the amount needed. An in-ground irrigation system is more expensive but will give better coverage and is easier to use than hose end sprinklers. The best time of day for watering is early afternoon just before the highest temperature period of the day. This takes advantage of the cooling effects of water. You should slightly increase the amount during periods of high temperatures and sustained wind to makeup for evaporation.
http://www.turf.msu.edu/irrigation-practices-to-preserve-water-quality

Wow, there are still some that think inside the box.

Goo Michigan State. :cool2:

Kiril
04-25-2010, 12:45 PM
Nice .... you are trying to use a dumbed down article for home owners in Michigan as your "proof"? :laugh:
Really dude, you are seriously arguing with me on this? I have over 15 years field experience scheduling/auditing/renovating irrigation systems and managing soils. Is your name Gerry Miller?


Those idiotic application rate suggestions by your "article" are ignorant at best. They are so general as to be inaccurate. You might as well state you need to water somewhere between 0 - 2" of water per week .... since that will pretty much cover any scenario in any part of the country for any type of turf and soil during the growing season. :rolleyes:

Furthermore, to even suggest an irrigation schedule and application rate without knowing the rooting depth (actual,potential,desired), soil type, confining layers, turf type, irrigation water quality, leeching requirements, irrigation system efficiency, environmental conditions, etc...... is ignorant at best.

Frequent daily irrigation does NOT save water .... in fact, it wastes huge amounts of water ... not only through losses from system inefficiency but also from evaporation.

FYI .... the practice of syringing, which is what that article is suggesting, is ABSOLUTELY NOT required for residential lawns, or for any low performance turf. This is a practice utilized by high performance turf managers (sports, golf). Is your lawn a putting green? IMO, the authors of this article need a swift kick in the head.

Bottom line dude .... you need to stop pretending you have a clue here, because you don't.

But if you want to play the reference game ... here are some for you to NOT understand.


http://www.water.ca.gov/wateruseefficiency/docs/wucols00.pdf

http://www.irrisoft.net/downloads/manuals/Landscape%20Water%20Management%20Training%20Manual.pdf

http://www.epa.gov/watersense/docs/ws_water_budget_approach508.pdf

http://ucanr.org/freepubs/docs/8395.pdf


How about some journal publications?


http://crop.scijournals.org/cgi/reprint/43/1/282.pdf

http://crop.scijournals.org/cgi/reprint/42/6/2011.pdf

http://crop.scijournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/49/3/1063

http://crop.scijournals.org/cgi/reprint/46/1/81.pdf

http://agris.fao.org/agris-search/search/display.do?f=./1997/v2317/US9732166.xml;US9732166

rainbowss
04-25-2010, 12:51 PM
Keep at it Kiril, maybe someday you will lose less water.

Answer this simple question and I will KNEEL before you Kiril.

Deep watering is done. Lets say for the sake of argument, that it is efficient enough for the numerous types of soil or what not and reached the deep roots.

Now, the outside temp gets very hot. >80F

Leaves lost most of their water due to transpiration.

Now, here is the awesome part. Roots cannot keep up with the water being lost and hence the plant just wilts and withers away. yay

All that deep watering for nothing.

Disprove this, and you are my idol for life.

IF you cannot disprove this, DO NOT bother responding as I see no use in arguing with you anymore.

P.S. Those Michigan guys are not your regular forum running maniacs. I searched who they were and they are what I would refer to as experts in the field... exactly the opposite of you.

Kiril
04-25-2010, 01:37 PM
Oh I see .... not enough references for you? What's the matter dude .... can't understand what is being said in those references? :laugh:

Deep watering is done. Lets say for the sake of argument, that it is efficient enough for the numerous types of soil or what not and reached the deep roots.

First .... there is no such thing as "efficient enough for numerous types of soils" ... that alone is an enormously ignorant statement.
Second, define "deep watering" .... deep watering with respect what? How deep is deep?

Now, the outside temp gets very hot. >80F

Average summer temps in my region are between 90-100 degrees with NO rain inputs and practically no humidity. It is essentially a desert in the summer. Is that hot enough for you?

Leaves lost most of their water due to transpiration.

"Most of their water"? What are the other mechanisms of loss?

Now, here is the awesome part. Roots cannot keep up with the water being lost and hence the plant just wilts and withers away. yay

Wow dude ... you really don't have a clue here ... do you? If the water is being lost ... then the roots are "keeping up" ...... right? How exactly is this water being lost if the roots aren't "keeping up"? This is a prime example of how you don't even have a rudimentary understanding of what you are talking about.

What is your LAI? What is your root:shoot? What is your root density per unit volume of soil? What is your soils ..... water holding capacity, current matric potential & water status, hydraulic conductivity?

All that deep watering for nothing.

Bullshiit ... Roots cannot grow without water. No water = no roots. Tell me .... how do you encourage deep rooting without providing water? How do you build a soil without providing water? How do you leech salts without watering beyond the current root zone?

Disprove this, and you are my idol for life.

IF you cannot disprove this, DO NOT bother responding as I see no use in arguing with you anymore.

Disprove what dude? You are talking in circles. There isn't a qualified person on this planet who is going to state that a deep rooted turf is less drought resistant than a shallow rooted turf. Furthermore ..... we haven't even touched on other factors .... like nutrients.

P.S. Those Michigan guys are not your regular forum running maniacs. I searched who they were and they are what I would refer to as experts in the field... exactly the opposite of you.

I don't give a flying rats ass who they are ... that article give piss poor advice and their attempt to dumb it down so people like you could understand failed miserable.

rainbowss
04-25-2010, 01:39 PM
For fun, I read through your journal publications. My daily dose of comedy has been fulfilled and it is only noon.

First, any fool knows the higher you mow, water loss is less due to the dense grass. Most of the publications seem to be arguing this simple context. However, they fail to test higher grass height with shallow roots. FOOLS.

Second, I haven't seen one of the publications site the time of day when they watered!?!? I really can't consider anything scientific about these publications.

Maybe they were meant for the Playboy magazine? :hammerhead:

Okay, I was willing to entertain your side but it just fails miserably.

I will just walk away. :walking:

:waving:

rainbowss
04-25-2010, 01:48 PM
Oh I see .... not enough references for you? What's the matter dude .... can't understand what is being said in those references? :laugh:



First .... there is no such thing as "efficient enough for numerous types of soils" ... that alone is an enormously ignorant statement.
Second, define "deep watering" .... deep watering with respect what? How deep is deep?



Average summer temps in my region are between 90-100 degrees with NO rain inputs and practically no humidity. It is essentially a desert in the summer. Is that hot enough for you?



"Most of their water"? What are the other mechanisms of loss?



Wow dude ... you really don't have a clue here ... do you? If the water is being lost ... then the roots are "keeping up" ...... right? How exactly is this water being lost if the roots aren't "keeping up"? This is a prime example of how you don't even have a rudimentary understanding of what you are talking about.

What is your LAI? What is your root:shoot? What is your root density per unit volume of soil? What is your soils ..... water holding capacity, current matric potential & water status, hydraulic conductivity?



Bullshiit ... Roots cannot grow without water. No water = no roots. Tell me .... how do you encourage deep rooting without providing water? How do you build a soil without providing water? How do you leech salts without watering beyond the current root zone?



Disprove what dude? You are talking in circles. There isn't a qualified person on this planet who is going to state that a deep rooted turf is less drought resistant than a shallow rooted turf. Furthermore ..... we haven't even touched on other factors .... like nutrients.



I don't give a flying rats ass who they are ... that article give piss poor advice and their attempt to dumb it down so people like you could understand failed miserable.

It all gets down to the Height of the grass. Frequent watering will not only save water but will get one the green that they want.

Try this, cut the amount of water you use when you deep water in half. The results in your grass WILL be the same. Why? because in your case, it is the height of the grass. And I bet it is at least 3.5inches.

Think about it. Do you drink 8 glasses of water in the morning and no water for the rest of the week? Of course, plant systems are much more simpler, but the concept is the same.

Deep watering not only takes away the nutrients of the plant, but it is slowly killing it in the long term. Keep it replenished with those $500 yearly fertilizers.

ta ta

Kiril
04-25-2010, 01:58 PM
For fun, I read through your journal publications. My daily dose of comedy has been fulfilled and it is only noon.

ROFL ... I think not.

First, any fool knows the higher you mow, water loss is less due to the dense grass.

Wrong ... there is more water loss as cut height and density increases. Mowing your turf higher increases drought resistance ... not water savings.

Most of the publications seem to be arguing this simple context. However, they fail to test higher grass height with shallow roots. FOOLS.

Really .... provide the quotes.

Second, I haven't seen one of the publications site the time of day when they watered!?!? I really can't consider anything scientific about these publications.

WOW .... you took all of 1 hour to make this determination? You couldn't even make it though one of the references in that amount of time, let alone all of them. :laugh:

Kiril
04-25-2010, 02:05 PM
It all gets down to the Height of the grass. Frequent watering will not only save water but will get one the green that they want.

Try this, cut the amount of water you use when you deep water in half. The results in your grass WILL be the same. Why? because in your case, it is the height of the grass. And I bet it is at least 3.5inches.

Think about it. Do you drink 8 glasses of water in the morning and no water for the rest of the week? Of course, plant systems are much more simpler, but the concept is the same.

Deep watering not only takes away the nutrients of the plant, but it is slowly killing it in the long term. Keep it replenished with those $500 yearly fertilizers.

ta ta

Please go away like you promised because all you are doing now is embarrassing yourself.

scruff33
04-29-2010, 02:23 PM
Wow. I log in and find 8 pages worth of comments. I think, 'cool, there must be some good discussion going on here.' All I find is an endless pissing match with a little juvenile name calling peppered in.

At least there's some conflicting viewpoints to chew on.

cgaengineer
04-29-2010, 10:22 PM
I cut my lawn at 1/2"...
Posted via Mobile Device

scruff33
04-29-2010, 11:03 PM
I cut my lawn at 1/2"...


This might start an all out war. :laugh:

cgaengineer
04-29-2010, 11:13 PM
This might start an all out war. :laugh:

I actually would cut lower if my reel would go lower...I like to scalp in the spring.
Posted via Mobile Device

ajslands
04-30-2010, 12:16 AM
Thus is funny :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laughing:
Posted via Mobile Device

topsites
04-30-2010, 12:25 AM
Watering at night promotes the growth of fungi such as moss.

On another note, I just cut my lawn two days ago, at 5.25"
Read: I NEVER water.
We can't afford to, the world is running out of fresh water as you read this.
The average American household consumes 100 gallons of water a day.
Ours uses 50.

But mine's one of the nicest lawns on the block.
I cut it about every two weeks.

Things do get a bit agricultural between cuts :p

cgaengineer
04-30-2010, 12:42 AM
I used 12,000 gallons of water last month, 2 times the amount I normally use. I have had water bills that were over $200...my average bill is about $40-$50.
Posted via Mobile Device

ProMo
04-30-2010, 08:53 AM
I water in the evening and get better results than if I were to water at 7-8 am. I only water if there is severe drought stress and when i water at night the grass absorbs the water and is able to tolerate the heat the next couple of days vs watering in the morning the grass doesnt absorb the water and the lawn is ferther stressed.

bx24
07-02-2010, 10:05 PM
I have installed lawn systems for years and told everyone to water in the early AM....I moved and everyone around me, high priced homes, water at night and look great....WTF....Maybe I am wrong???

http://www.ccenassau.org/hort/fact_sheets/c133_watering_lawns_oct00.pdf

I agree on the other members comments...This thread went way off course..

Cloud9Landscapes
07-03-2010, 01:11 AM
Watering early morning is the only way to go. Around 5:00 is perfect. It's early enough for the water to be soaked in without evaporation and by this time the insects are starting to hide again. It allows the roots to get water without being saturated for hours on end. It allows the blades of the grass to dry out within a few hours resulting in less fungal growth. It is the only time you are allowed to water in many areas.

For those of you laughing at CGA, he has Hybrid Bermuda which can be mowed as low as 1/4 inch. He knows his stuff and his lawn shows that. However, every lawn needs a irrigation system in my opinion.

NEW CITY LAWN CARE LLC
07-03-2010, 02:13 AM
I will share a troublesome property of mine, every year it dries out fast, fastest on the block, very hard clay dirt, (It's an HOA consisting of 18 homes) I've experimented over the past 3 years with watering times/lengths/days etc... And the only way I could prevent the creeping brown dry spots along the street, etc., was to water half in morning and half in evening, the program is set for 5:00 am, and 5:00 pm daily.. FYI our temps here in Southern Oregon are reaching 90-100...

This was the absolute only thing that has kept the turf green, now I'm no turf science expert or anything along those lines, I'm just sharing what I've experimented with and my results. Now let me also add this is the only property I have programmed to water in the evening..

NEW CITY LAWN CARE LLC
07-03-2010, 02:28 AM
Here's an interesting article I just read:


Secrets to a gorgeous lawn
Their grass is always greener, so we asked the experts for their top tips

By Ami Albernaz, Globe Correspondent | July 3, 2010

Summer’s here and, despite your best efforts, the lawn looks . . . not so great. It’s patchy, studded with weeds, and don’t even talk about color. So, what’s gone wrong? We asked landscapers, lawn-care professionals, horticulturists, and soil specialists for help, collecting their top tips for getting grass greener and healthier. Turns out, one secret to having a great lawn is knowing your property and accepting the fact that, for better or worse, your lawn may be different from your neighbor’s. That said, there’s plenty you can do to get your lawn looking lush — starting now.

FILL IN EVERY AVAILABLE SPACE WITH GRASS SEED

“You want to have a thick, full lawn,’’ said Chris Kennedy, owner of Kennedy’s Country Gardens in Scituate. “Mother Nature or whoever you believe in is trying to fill every inch of soil in. So if there’s space, a weed will probably grow in. I usually say grass seed is your friend; if you use it to fill in where you have empty spaces, there won’t be room for the weeds.’’

Kennedy says you can seed anytime there’s a space in your lawn that could use filling in. If you do put seed down, though, you’re going to have to commit to watering frequently, especially at the beginning.

“This is an important tip,’’ he says. “If you can’t afford a sprinkler system, you could buy a timer for $50. Hook it up to your outdoor faucet, hook a hose to that, and run it to where you’re putting your seed. You can hook a sprinkler up to it. You can set it up to turn on for a few minutes several times a day.’’

Once the seeds have germinated and the grass is high enough to have been mowed a couple of times, you can water it less often, but for longer amounts of time.

“You might be watering every other day or every three days at that point,’’ he says. “Instead of five minutes several times a day, it may be 20 to 30 minutes two or three times a week.’’

The reason for less frequent but more intense watering is so the water seeps deeper into the ground and the roots reach down farther. Ultimately, Kennedy says, “the deeper the roots go down, the better they can handle dryness and fluctuations.’’

Should you be wondering what type of grass seed to use, Kennedy recommends “a diverse portfolio.’’

“You don’t want to invest all your stock in bluegrass, or ryegrass, or fescue,’’ he says. “The predominant one people are talking about now is fescue. It tends to tolerate tougher conditions.’’

DON’T CUT YOUR GRASS TOO SHORT

The most important lawn-care tip to keep in mind during the summer is mowing height, said Bill Joseph, plant health care manager at Lynch Landscape and Tree Service in Wayland. “You want to cut the grass to 2 1/2 to 3 inches in the summertime. In the spring and fall, maybe starting at the end of August, you can bring it back down to 2, 2 1/2 inches.’’

A longer length helps the grass retain more moisture, minimize evaporation, and keeps the ground cooler, he says. “Cutting it short in the summertime it will turn it yellow real quick,’’ he says.

Another tip: Don’t bag the grass clippings. “If you can use a mulching mower and leave the clippings, they’ll go back and feed the lawn,’’ he said. “There’s a good amount of nitrogen in those clippings, so you could probably use about a quarter less fertilizer. That little layer of grass clippings also helps retain moisture and helps conserve water.’’

Joseph recommends mowing often, at least once a week. “The rule of thumb is you don’t want it to get too long,’’ he says. “You don’t want to take more than one-third of the grass blade off at a time, because you’re taking a lot of its stored nutrients away.’’

In terms of watering, aim for around an inch a week, Joseph said. If you don’t have a rain gauge, you can use a tuna can or other shallow can to measure water.

ALTERNATE THE DIRECTION YOU MOW

Besides keeping grass 3 inches high and making sure the mowing blade is sharp, you should also alternate the direction of the mowing.

“If you mow in the same direction every week, you might see tire marks in the turf grass,’’ Richard Carter, owner of My Lawn Guy, LLC in Andover. “If you mow one week in one direction, and then one week in the opposite, and another at an angle, there won’t be tire marks. You’ll see a checkerboard pattern. It looks fantastic.’’

Grass mowed this way will also be healthier, Carter adds. “If you’re mowing in a certain direction, grass will grow in that direction, and sometimes die in that direction.’’

As for watering, Carter and others we spoke with say the early-morning hours are the best. “If you’re watering at night, the moisture just sits there. It’s on the turf grass much longer than you want it to be. You want the sun to dry it off.’’

TEST YOUR SOIL

“The most important thing to know if you want to have a healthy lawn is that if you hire a professional, that’s only 50 percent of the battle,’’ said Ted Wales, turf specialist with Hartney Greymont in Needham. “The other 50 percent is the most important. It’s cultural practices like mowing and watering. Without proper mowing and watering, these other things aren’t going to solve the problem. It’s a partnership. You have to take an interest in it; you can’t just hire it out.’’

Plants like a steady environment, Wales said. In terms of mowing, grass “can be 1 inch, 3 inches, or 6 inches, but keep it to that.’’

Wales recommends soil testing every two years. The pH probably won’t change significantly from year to year, but it’s important to keep an eye on it.

“PH affects nutrient availability,’’ he says. “If the pH isn’t properly balanced, nutrients won’t go in.’’ For soil that is acidic, as it tends to be in New England, applying lime, which is alkaline, is recommended. (See the next tip.)

APPLY LIME, BUT NOT DURING THE SUMMER

Applying lime in the spring or fall (or both) will help your lawn along, Paul Solomon, owner of Solomon Landscaping in Dedham. Fallen pine needles and other debris contribute to acidity in the soil. Lime helps neutralize it.

Solomon advises against putting down lime in the summer “because it can sit in the sun and burn the grass,’’ he said. “You also don’t want to put down lime with regular fertilizer, because the combination would be too strong.’’

Solomon recommends pelletized lime and a spreader to apply it. Both can be found at stores like Home Depot and Lowe’s, he says. While you’re applying lime, it’s also a good time to put down grass seed to fill in any bare spots.

“If you see a week that’s going to be 65 or 70 [degrees], you want to put down the grass seed then,’’ he says. “Put down a starter fertilizer [which is gentler than a regular fertilizer] and lime along with the grass seed to fill in any dead areas.’’

THINK ABOUT GOING ORGANIC, AND KEEP YOUR MOWER BLADE SHARP

“We’ve been conditioned to think that if we use a [commercial] four-step process, we can have a disease-free, trouble-free lawn,’’ said Paul E. Rogers, independent horticultural consultant and instructor at the Landscape Institute at the Boston Architectural College. “What we’re doing is keeping plants on a life-support system. The grass doesn’t have much choice but to live.’’

Some fertilizers have very high amounts of nitrogen which promotes top growth and that strived-for emerald green shade in relation to potassium and phosphorus, the latter of which aids root growth, Rogers says. This means even though grass might look green and lush, its root system may not be so healthy.

“I talk to people about using something as simple as a Triple 10 fertilizer [which has equal amounts of nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium] or any one of the organic fertilizers on the market,’’ he says. “When you go with an organic product, you move toward a more natural ecological system.’’

When grass is overfed with nitrogen, he adds, it becomes an ideal site for feeding insects because the grass “sweats out’’ excess sugars into small globules on the outer surface. Some commercial lawn care companies simply follow up with a pesticide, which can wreak havoc with the environment.

Rogers says mowing a lawn to the proper height and making sure the mower blade is sharp enough are crucial. “The season should have started out with a newly sharpened blade,’’ he says. “A blade that isn’t sharp enough will fracture the grass and leave room for damage. It leads to an oozing of the sugar from the grass, and leaves room for diseases.’’

TREAT SHADED LAWNS DIFFERENTLY

Shaded lawns need to be treated differently from lawns that get a lot of sunlight, said Matt Noon, president of Noon Turf Care in Hudson. “For shady lawns, we’ll cut back on the amount of nitrogen. Too much nitrogen with a shady lawn will kill it off,’’ he says.

For most lawns, he encourages overseeding, or sowing seed over existing grass, in the fall. He says spring is the best time for shaded lawns, though, since there are no leaves on the trees. He recommends aerating the lawn (you can rent a machine to do it yourself or have a lawn-care specialist do it) or raking to turn up the ground before putting down the seed.

“Some homeowners might just drop seed on the lawn, but you need soil-seed contact,’’ Noon says. “It’s not going to give you a brand-new lawn, but will help.’’

Noon recommends overseeding lawns that get sunlight in the fall because the grass seed won’t have to compete with weeds. “When the temperatures drop, crab grass and broad-leaf weeds will die, but lawns will survive the cold longer than weeds will,’’ he says. September or October is a particularly good time to overseed, he adds, since the grass will have germinated before winter hits.

DON’T OVER- WATER

A minimalist yet attentive approach can give you a healthy and attractive lawn, says Scott Ebdon, professor of turfgrass science and management at the University of Massachusetts-Amherst. “It’s about maintaining with a minimum amount of maintenance,’’ he says.

Fertilizers aren’t as necessary in the summer as they are in the spring and fall, the seasons when grass is better able to absorb nutrients. If you are going to apply fertilizer in the summer, Ebdon recommends using a product in which at least half of the nitrogen or, even better, 75 percent is in a slow-release form, and is gradually available to the grass.

“When you use fertilizers with a lot of readily available nitrogen, the plant picks it up quickly, and it promotes vertical extension,’’ he says. “This increases the need for mowing. So in the summer, we want to keep growth to the lowest possible level.’’

By stimulating growth, high-nitrogen fertilizers also increase watering requirements, since more water is lost from the grass blades. Excessive blade growth hinders the root system, and the grass becomes more susceptible to drought.

Ebdon advocates a tough-love approach to watering. “I think a lot of homeowners will kill the plant with kindness by giving it too much nitrogen or water,’’ he says. “The plant has to be allowed to experience some stress, some dehydration.’’

He recommends watering grass just after it starts to show signs of mild dehydration. The blades will have started to roll up, and you’ll see your footprints when you walk across the lawn.

“The plant will make a rapid recovery,’’ he says. “If you do that repeatedly over the summer, it’ll promote physiological changes in the plant. It’ll promote deeper rooting and enhance drought-resistance, so the plant can go further under a lack of rainfall.’’

WHEN USING LAWN PRODUCTS, FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS

With lawn-care products such as fertilizer or a pesticide, “the label is the law,’’ said Karen Connelly, executive director of the Massachusetts Association of Lawn Care Professionals. “If it says it covers 5,000 square feet, for instance, or that the product must be diluted, or that you must use one teaspoon of the product, that will guide you on how you should do the application.’’ Don’t stray from the instructions because you think your grass needs something different.

Connelly also recommends being mindful of the ways in which products are disposed. You might keep leftover fertilizer in an airtight container in the garage until you need it next, but if you’re going to get rid of it, “don’t put it down the disposal or out with the garbage,’’ she says. “It is a growth agent, meant for a specific purpose. If you put it in the trash, it won’t be utilized in that specific way, and it’ll end up in soil or water.’’ She advises checking in with your town hall to find out if there’s somewhere you could take it.

Getting to know your own property can guide your decisions in how you care for it, Connelly says. She advocates integrated pest management, which aims, in part, to reduce pesticide use. For example, if you see that dandelions are coming up, you can spot-treat them early, without applying weed killer to a large area.

“You use much less because you’re treating individual spots,’’ she says. “The key is dealing with it before it gets too large, dealing with it sooner rather than later.’’

cgaengineer
07-03-2010, 08:54 AM
That article most certainly was written for cool season grass. My lawn at 1" now is in much better shape than the other 32 homes in my neighborhood. I do raise the height in the hotter months, but never over an inch.
Posted via Mobile Device

WirelessG
07-03-2010, 04:30 PM
Wow. That was quite brouhaha between Rainbowss (rainbow nazi?) and Kiril. I too was hoping for a a more fact-based discussion on this matter. I posted a related question about fungicides and I haven't received any comments. Perhaps I should have called someone a f.ag or stupid :p.

(For the record, I thought that the glib, snotty nature of Rainbow's comments put him in the f.ag category.)

puppypaws
07-05-2010, 10:08 PM
Wow. That was quite brouhaha between Rainbowss (rainbow nazi?) and Kiril. I too was hoping for a a more fact-based discussion on this matter. I posted a related question about fungicides and I haven't received any comments. Perhaps I should have called someone a f.ag or stupid :p.

(For the record, I thought that the glib, snotty nature of Rainbow's comments put him in the f.ag category.)

Water twice a week, but give ample water to soak the root zone. Everyone thinks watering grass in small amounts each day is best for root and leaf health, this is totally wrong. Fungus is promoted by too much moisture, this is why drying time can be almost as important to the health of grass as watering. The largest majority of people over water, then can never seem to understand why their grass is getting brown in spots and just doesn't look healthy. They all say the same thing, I have a strong fertilizer program and apply plenty of water, yet my grass looks sick. Too much moisture is the culprit more times than not.

cgaengineer
07-05-2010, 10:13 PM
A good indicator of grass that needs water is when it doesn't rebound when walked on.
Posted via Mobile Device

NEW CITY LAWN CARE LLC
07-05-2010, 11:40 PM
Water twice a week, but give ample water to soak the root zone. Everyone thinks watering grass in small amounts each day is best for root and leaf health, this is totally wrong. Fungus is promoted by too much moisture, this is why drying time can be almost as important to the health of grass as watering. The largest majority of people over water, then can never seem to understand why their grass is getting brown in spots and just doesn't look healthy. They all say the same thing, I have a strong fertilizer program and apply plenty of water, yet my grass looks sick. Too much moisture is the culprit more times than not.

So your saying its best to water 2 days a week for perennial rye-grass and temp's nearing 100??

Cloud9Landscapes
07-06-2010, 12:07 AM
So your saying its best to water 2 days a week for perennial rye-grass and temp's nearing 100??

No he's saying watering every other day or every three days with a longer run time is wiser. Keep in mind the soil can only absorb a certain amount of water per irrigation cycle. And as he mentioned, fungus and insects love water.

There's too many factors to answer this question. Soil type, shade , slope, soil density, zone, cultural practices, type of emission, type of grass. It all depends on the area to be irrigated and the factors.

NEW CITY LAWN CARE LLC
07-06-2010, 12:15 AM
No he's saying watering every other day or every three days with a longer run time is wiser. Keep in mind the soil can only absorb a certain amount of water per irrigation cycle. And as he mentioned, fungus and insects love water.

There's too many factors to answer this question. Soil type, shade , slope, soil density, zone, cultural practices, type of emission, type of grass. It all depends on the area to be irrigated and the factors.

Kinda my point exactly to make such a general statement....

puppypaws
07-06-2010, 01:15 AM
Kinda my point exactly to make such a general statement....

Perennial Ryegrass was genetically designed to be grown in cooler more moist climates, but yes you can keep Perennial Ryegrass in excellent condition if your topsoil is 12" deep and you water twice per week at a rate of 1" per session. To say your topsoil is 1" deep changes the guidelines, you need to water every other day with a lesser amount .5" because it cannot be retained, no water holding capacity.

Yes, there are numbers of variables in everything you do, but in the average summer climate throughout the US; when watering cool season grasses, twice per week will give you the best results 95% of the time.

You don't need to believe me, go to Rutgers University website and learn for yourself, better than that, just go to any turf grass maintenance website, they will verify what I have told you.

NEW CITY LAWN CARE LLC
07-06-2010, 01:29 AM
I agree completely on the concept of watering deep & infrequent, but there are always those stubborn properties where who knows what's underneath, clay, hard as a rock shallow dirt, the only way I seem to keep the place alive is watering frequently, twice daily... Just saying...

It just seems like I'd get too much run-off and water waste if I were for example watering this particular property for an Hour per zone, 1-2 times a week vs. 10 minutes per zone, twice per day...

Cloud9Landscapes
07-06-2010, 04:10 AM
I agree completely on the concept of watering deep & infrequent, but there are always those stubborn properties where who knows what's underneath, clay, hard as a rock shallow dirt, the only way I seem to keep the place alive is watering frequently, twice daily... Just saying...

It just seems like I'd get too much run-off and water waste if I were for example watering this particular property for an Hour per zone, 1-2 times a week vs. 10 minutes per zone, twice per day...

What you describe is known as "Cycle-soak irrigation" and your absolutely right, it can be a good watering saving strategy. The most common way I see it being achieved is having a start time at 5:00 am letting it sit for an hour to absorb and then the zone comes on again at 7:00 am. You need a controller that offers multiple start time programming per zone. Even some of the cheapest controllers out there offer this, and I mean dirt cheap.

Kiril
07-06-2010, 08:44 AM
Water twice a week, but give ample water to soak the root zone. Everyone thinks watering grass in small amounts each day is best for root and leaf health, this is totally wrong. Fungus is promoted by too much moisture, this is why drying time can be almost as important to the health of grass as watering. The largest majority of people over water, then can never seem to understand why their grass is getting brown in spots and just doesn't look healthy. They all say the same thing, I have a strong fertilizer program and apply plenty of water, yet my grass looks sick. Too much moisture is the culprit more times than not.

No offense paws, but saying water 2 times a week is just as bad as saying water 1" a week. Extension service publications are generally for home owners, most of which have a hard time programming their controller, let alone calculating landscape water needs. If a professional is going to program a controller, then they need to learn how to do it right.

ChiTownAmateur
07-06-2010, 03:34 PM
you guys have WAAAAYYYY too much time on your hands. Go outside and water or something.

rtharris
07-07-2010, 06:43 PM
you guys have WAAAAYYYY too much time on your hands. Go outside and water or something.
Posted via Mobile Device

rtharris
07-07-2010, 06:48 PM
Since all yards r different this whole discussion is moot Find out what works for you by trial and error and then follow ur own guidelines
Posted via Mobile Device

puppypaws
07-07-2010, 07:06 PM
Since all yards r different this whole discussion is moot Find out what works for you by trial and error and then follow ur own guidelines
Posted via Mobile Device

That is good advice, hope many follow it.....LOL

rtharris
07-07-2010, 08:15 PM
That is good advice, hope many follow it.....LOL
Posted via Mobile Device

rtharris
07-07-2010, 08:20 PM
Paws Many times we cant improve on the natural order of things no matter how hard we try or how learned we are Do you agree?
Posted via Mobile Device

puppypaws
07-07-2010, 08:52 PM
Paws Many times we cant improve on the natural order of things no matter how hard we try or how learned we are Do you agree?
Posted via Mobile Device

Yes, I agree with everything you say!

ChiTownAmateur
07-09-2010, 05:10 PM
Since all yards r different this whole discussion is moot Find out what works for you by trial and error and then follow ur own guidelines
Posted via Mobile Device

Most homeowners want a perfect lawn with the least amount of effort

The point I see of this discussion once rainbow and kiril calmed down is that there is a BIG potential tradeoff that many homeowners don't realize

For example --

IF you had a situation where a lawn requires watering 2x a day or 1x a day simply becuase of a soil problem, there is another option --

Improve the soil. It might be a lot of work, or expense, but if done the long run benefit is...not watering 1 or 2x a day.

So taking this full circle...If you employ what is generally considered to be a best practice -- water infrequently and deeply (amounts tbd and the smarter you are at this obv the better the results) AND THEN YOUR RESULTS ARE NOT WHAT YOU EXPECTED --

It is an indicator that something in the environment could and should be changed. That is the key point I take from this.

Farmers, lawn experts (many of which are here) actually DO KNOW what the best practices are, and they know that they can and should be adapted to less than perfect conditions. But that shouldn't take away from the fact that there certainly are "best practices" and they should be followed.

ChiTownAmateur
07-09-2010, 05:23 PM
To conclude my above comments, the issue is that best practices is a "generality" and experts like Kiril are capable of taking it much further than that and get very specific based upon the specific environmental conditions

Lost in that imo is that the average homeowner is not going to learn to that level, and is not necessarily going to hire a kiril. Some knowledge is better than none, and simple advice even if not ideal is still a "better practice" i believe

rtharris
07-09-2010, 05:27 PM
To conclude my above comments, the issue is that best practices is a "generality" and experts like Kiril are capable of taking it much further than that and get very specific based upon the specific environmental conditions

Lost in that imo is that the average homeowner is not going to learn to that level, and is not necessarily going to hire a kiril. Some knowledge is better than none, and simple advice even if not ideal is still a "better practice" i believe
Posted via Mobile Device

rtharris
07-09-2010, 05:35 PM
I totally agree with ur train of thought chitown as long as u know what is good practice for ur own land and not just someones opinion in general
Posted via Mobile Device

puppypaws
07-09-2010, 06:13 PM
To conclude my above comments, the issue is that best practices is a "generality" and experts like Kiril are capable of taking it much further than that and get very specific based upon the specific environmental conditions

Lost in that imo is that the average homeowner is not going to learn to that level, and is not necessarily going to hire a kiril. Some knowledge is better than none, and simple advice even if not ideal is still a "better practice" i believe

The technology is in place to make it totally non dependent of human tampering. Soil moisture monitors are implanted in the sprinkle head zone, the monitors send information to a computer that keeps a database of moisture content in each zone. Once a zone has moisture levels that drop into certain parameters for the grass being grown, the computer sends orders to the sprinkler head to come on at a specific programed time and apply the amount of water needed to bring the moisture content back to a perfect level, not too much, and not too little. This takes all the guess work out of needing to have expert knowledge of irrigation.

rtharris
07-09-2010, 06:33 PM
The technology is in place to make it totally non dependent of human tampering. Soil moisture monitors are implanted in the sprinkle head zone, the monitors send information to a computer that keeps a database of moisture content in each zone. Once a zone has moisture levels that drop into certain parameters for the grass being grown, the computer sends orders to the sprinkler head to come on at a specific programed time and apply the amount of water needed to bring the moisture content back to a perfect level, not too much, and not too little. This takes all the guess work out of needing to have expert knowledge of irrigation.
Posted via Mobile Device

Kiril
07-09-2010, 06:36 PM
The technology is in place to make it totally non dependent of human tampering. Soil moisture monitors are implanted in the sprinkle head zone, the monitors send information to a computer that keeps a database of moisture content in each zone. Once a zone has moisture levels that drop into certain parameters for the grass being grown, the computer sends orders to the sprinkler head to come on at a specific programed time and apply the amount of water needed to bring the moisture content back to a perfect level, not too much, and not too little. This takes all the guess work out of needing to have expert knowledge of irrigation.

Sites set up with SMS (soil moisture sensors) still need to be monitored, no different than a site with a weather based system. You might think you can walk away from both .... but you would be wrong. That said, it does reduce the amount of human interaction to some extent.

While I fully believe SMS coupled with weather based controllers will provide the most efficient use of water, the cost to set something like this up correctly would be unacceptable for anyone except the filthy rich.

rtharris
07-09-2010, 06:37 PM
Paws no dis intended but not many homeowners r going tn be that technical about watering their lawns
Posted via Mobile Device

ChiTownAmateur
07-10-2010, 12:28 PM
that is some incredible technology to adapt by taking data from the sprinkler head itself and custom watering to the need. wish i had that kind of bucks!

Kiril
07-10-2010, 12:51 PM
that is some incredible technology to adapt by taking data from the sprinkler head itself and custom watering to the need. wish i had that kind of bucks!

That is not how it works. Most of the "affordable" sensors on the market work as a common break. They directly measure soil moisture at a specific depth, and when it declines to a certain point (user determined), the "break" will be removed allowing the valve(s) to operate. The biggest problem with most of the current soil moisture sensors is they are limited to the install depth, location, and pretty much all of them require hardwiring.

In an ideal world, soil moisture would need to be monitored for every hydrozone and/or valve throughout the effective root zone of the plants in the hydrozone. That said, given turf consumes the greatest amount of water in an irrigated landscape, using soil moisture sensors for turf zones, along with on-site weather based scheduling has the potential to conserve massive amounts of water.

puppypaws
07-10-2010, 12:54 PM
Paws no dis intended but not many homeowners r going tn be that technical about watering their lawns
Posted via Mobile Device

It is really very simple, and not as costly as you may think. Anyone that is interested in the studies and research done on this technique can contact, Grady Miller / turf grass specialist at NC State 919-515-5656.

This gives a good explanation of how it functions.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ae437

That is not how it works. Most of the "affordable" sensors on the market work as a common break. They directly measure soil moisture at a specific depth, and when it declines to a certain point (user determined), the "break" will be removed allowing the valve to operate. The biggest problem with most of the current soil moisture sensors is they are limited to the install depth, location, and pretty much all of them require hardwiring.

In an ideal world, soil moisture would need to be monitored for every hydrozone and/or valve throughout the effective root zone of the plants in the hydrozone. That said, given turf consumes the greatest amount of water in an irrigated landscape, using soil moisture sensors for turf zones, along with on-site weather based scheduling has the potential to conserve massive amounts of water.

The technology is in place to monitor all natural water fall at each sensor, enabling the computer to determine when and how much water should be applied in each individual zone.

Kiril
07-10-2010, 01:16 PM
The technology is in place to monitor all natural water fall at each sensor, enabling the computer to determine when and how much water should be applied in each individual zone.

I am very aware of what the tech can do. I am also aware there are almost no "affordable" controllers on the market that have built in support for soil moisture sensing.

http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php?p=1908962&postcount=47

puppypaws
07-10-2010, 02:25 PM
I am very aware of what the tech can do. I am also aware there are almost no "affordable" controllers on the market that have built in support for soil moisture sensing.

http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php?p=1908962&postcount=47

I suppose it depends on what a person considers affordable, most that can build a half million dollar home can also afford moisture monitoring irrigation. The technology is in place to design a system that is totally independent of all human interactions, if a person has the money, it can be designed and implemented. There are systems so sophisticated they have total monitoring of all parts and system functions, with wired and wireless alerting communication, even to the point of a small leak occurring and shutting the one identified line down while notification is distributed. You can communicate with the system and make changes to any function from 10,000 miles away if you wish. There is nothing out of the realm of our imagination if the resources are available to make it happen. We could run everything from satellite if the need arises.

Kiril
07-10-2010, 05:16 PM
I suppose it depends on what a person considers affordable, most that can build a half million dollar home can also afford moisture monitoring irrigation. The technology is in place to design a system that is totally independent of all human interactions, if a person has the money, it can be designed and implemented. There are systems so sophisticated they have total monitoring of all parts and system functions, with wired and wireless alerting communication, even to the point of a small leak occurring and shutting the one identified line down while notification is distributed. You can communicate with the system and make changes to any function from 10,000 miles away if you wish. There is nothing out of the realm of our imagination if the resources are available to make it happen. We could run everything from satellite if the need arises.

No offense paws, but there is no such thing as an irrigation system that is totally free of human interaction, and I honestly don't think you are in the know on what it will take and cost to implement such a system.

Trust me when I tell you, the people who can afford such system are the ones who penny pinch the most. Even the filthy rich gag when they are looking at 10-15K for irrigation control ... and that would be the low end of "state of the art". Hell .... I have a hard time convincing people living in > 2 million homes to spend $500-600 on a low end "smart" controller, and that is a drop in the bucket compared to what could be spent.

Point is .... if you have 500K - 1 million to drop on irrigation I could easily spend it and might very well need more.

Here is a thread I started a long time ago on designing a dream system for a small property. Heck, it is 25K+ just for the weighing lysimeter. :laugh:

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=197404

puppypaws
07-10-2010, 07:49 PM
No offense paws, but there is no such thing as an irrigation system that is totally free of human interaction, and I honestly don't think you are in the know on what it will take and cost to implement such a system.

Trust me when I tell you, the people who can afford such system are the ones who penny pinch the most. Even the filthy rich gag when they are looking at 10-15K for irrigation control ... and that would be the low end of "state of the art". Hell .... I have a hard time convincing people living in > 2 million homes to spend $500-600 on a low end "smart" controller, and that is a drop in the bucket compared to what could be spent.

Point is .... if you have 500K - 1 million to drop on irrigation I could easily spend it and might very well need more.

Here is a thread I started a long time ago on designing a dream system for a small property. Heck, it is 25K+ just for the weighing lysimeter. :laugh:

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=197404

Your initial post in the above thread started out reasonably well, then immediately started getting silly, did not take the time to read but the first five post.

Why don't you compile a turn key job of the cheapest moisture monitoring irrigation system on 10,890 sq. ft. (1/4 ac.) of turf grass, then in turn, price the best of the best on the same area, it would be good information to see. I have people that can confirm the accuracy of your quotes, list the equipment and labor separate.

I suppose it depends on what a person considers affordable, most that can build a half million dollar home can also afford moisture monitoring irrigation. The technology is in place to design a system that is totally independent of all human interactions, if a person has the money, it can be designed and implemented. There are systems so sophisticated they have total monitoring of all parts and system functions, with wired and wireless alerting communication, even to the point of a small leak occurring and shutting the one identified line down while notification is distributed. You can communicate with the system and make changes to any function from 10,000 miles away if you wish. There is nothing out of the realm of our imagination if the resources are available to make it happen. We could run everything from satellite if the need arises.

What I stated was there is a moisture monitored irrigation system a person can afford, and yes you are correct in stating in all honesty there is nothing that does not need some human interaction, if no more than starting the system. Then on the side of what I was stating, yes there can be a system designed on paper that needs no human interference to operate.

Remote sensing is the science of determining the status of something from a distance. Government satellites that spy on Russia use remote sensing. Over the years, these satellites have provided a better estimate of the size of the Russian wheat crop than the Russians could tally from weighing their own grain trucks. I believe you would concur from this technology in existence that yes, there can be an irrigation system designed to do anything a person wishes, and if need be, directed by satellite. I did not state this could be done cost effectively, I only stated it could be done, can you agree with this?

Kiril
07-10-2010, 11:08 PM
Your initial post in the above thread started out reasonably well, then immediately started getting silly, did not take the time to read but the first five post.

Why don't you compile a turn key job of the cheapest moisture monitoring irrigation system on 10,890 sq. ft. (1/4 ac.) of turf grass, then in turn, price the best of the best on the same area, it would be good information to see. I have people that can confirm the accuracy of your quotes, list the equipment and labor separate.

You are the one who said state of the art .... no? That thread is as silly as your statement that an irrigation system can be built that will never require human interaction. Weren't you the one who said the tech exists? What is so silly about using a lysimeter? It is the most accurate way to determine a reference ET ..... no? Funny thing is .... that thread doesn't even begin to touch on the "automated" toys you could buy to run and monitor a landscape.

You are the one who is claiming it is affordable ..... so why don't you go ahead and price out a base system with a controller that can data log soil moisture data. Heck .... just price out a Calsense with all the bells and whistles .... installed... then go ahead and pitch it to your residential clients. Heck ...I'll even get the latest list prices for you. BTW ... I live in an area where the average house price is around 500K .... so I am pretty familiar with what people in your stated house price range will fork out. Oh .... and landscapes typically contain more than turf, so if you think a single sensor is going to cut it, even for a large area of turf, you are wrong.

What I stated was there is a moisture monitored irrigation system a person can afford, and yes you are correct in stating in all honesty there is nothing that does not need some human interaction, if no more than starting the system. Then on the side of what I was stating, yes there can be a system designed on paper that needs no human interference to operate.

Every system on the planet, regardless of its complexity, needs to be maintained and monitored for performance. There is NO getting around this need. You can throw all the tech and money at it you want .... and you will still have this requirement ... unless you build a fleet robots that can do all this for you.

Beyond that, as I stated prior, the "affordable" sensors act as a common break, and they are controller independent. The Acclima controller is the only "affordable" controller that I am aware of that has built in support for soil moisture monitoring .... and since RB appears to have bought the rights to their add-on unit .... I wonder if that controller is even available anymore.

Remote sensing is the science of determining the status of something from a distance. Government satellites that spy on Russia use remote sensing. Over the years, these satellites have provided a better estimate of the size of the Russian wheat crop than the Russians could tally from weighing their own grain trucks. I believe you would concur from this technology in existence that yes, there can be an irrigation system designed to do anything a person wishes, and if need be, directed by satellite. I did not state this could be done cost effectively, I only stated it could be done, can you agree with this?

What exactly is the point in the above, and where did you get that data on the wheat? I find it highly unlikely you are going to get a more accurate yield tonnage from satellite vs. weighing it out. Do tell!

I don't think you are completely aware of what makes up a large part of my biz ..... but continue on if you want.

Kiril
07-11-2010, 12:25 AM
I guess you missed this paws.

http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php?p=1951980&postcount=5

This doc provides a relatively comprehensive review of smart technology with respect to controllers ... including pricing for most. You can use that doc to build your basic soil moisture sensing system. I'll be kind and only require a single sensor per valve/zone, even though that is hardly sufficient to monitor soil moisture at differential depths, or microclimate variation within a zone. I'll also be generous and not require data logging. We will ignore all the other bells and whistles and the cost to install this system. Let's say the system is 16 zones.

puppypaws
07-11-2010, 12:55 AM
You are the one who said state of the art .... no? That thread is as silly as your statement that an irrigation system can be built that will never require human interaction. Weren't you the one who said the tech exists? What is so silly about using a lysimeter? It is the most accurate way to determine a reference ET ..... no? Funny thing is .... that thread doesn't even begin to touch on the "automated" toys you could buy to run and monitor a landscape.

You are the one who is claiming it is affordable ..... so why don't you go ahead and price out a base system with a controller that can data log soil moisture data. Heck .... just price out a Calsense with all the bells and whistles .... installed... then go ahead and pitch it to your residential clients. Heck ...I'll even get the latest list prices for you. BTW ... I live in an area where the average house price is around 500K .... so I am pretty familiar with what people in your stated house price range will fork out. Oh .... and landscapes typically contain more than turf, so if you think a single sensor is going to cut it, even for a large area of turf, you are wrong.



Every system on the planet, regardless of its complexity, needs to be maintained and monitored for performance. There is NO getting around this need. You can throw all the tech and money at it you want .... and you will still have this requirement ... unless you build a fleet robots that can do all this for you.

Beyond that, as I stated prior, the "affordable" sensors act as a common break, and they are controller independent. The Acclima controller is the only "affordable" controller that I am aware of that has built in support for soil moisture monitoring .... and since RB appears to have bought the rights to their add-on unit .... I wonder if that controller is even available anymore.



What exactly is the point in the above, and where did you get that data on the wheat? I find it highly unlikely you are going to get a more accurate yield tonnage from satellite vs. weighing it out. Do tell!

I don't think you are completely aware of what makes up a large part of my biz ..... but continue on if you want.

"Your initial post in the above thread started out reasonably well, then immediately started getting silly, did not take the time to read but the first five post."

I am very sorry about that, it was totally my fault the way my above statement could have been interpreted differently from the intent. Your first post in the thread was not a problem, it was after yours that people began immediately getting off tangent. Where I stated "then immediately started getting silly," it should have stated, "then immediately after your first post it started getting silly." I truly am sorry about my misstatement.

Believe me when I tell you there is technology far advanced to anything most can imagine in soil moisture monitoring, turf grass moisture monitoring is in the stone ages compared to field crop monitoring for irrigation purposes. There is a new modeling product that uses data from the Advanced Microwave Scanning Radiometer for EOS (AMSR-E) sensor on NASA's Aqua satellite, that can give you soil moisture readings from anywhere on the earths surface. This satellite data can be fed to receivers on center pivot irrigation systems, allowing it the ability to moisture feed a crop based on exact needs, instead of a farmers best guess.

The statement I made about detecting Russia's crop production is true, the same as NASA's Aqua satellite is capable of reading soil moisture in every crop growing country in the world enabling our government to estimate at all times how food crops are advancing. NASA researchers are using satellite data to deliver a kind of space-based humanitarian assistance. They are cultivating the most accurate estimates of soil moisture – the main determinant of crop yield changes – and improving global forecasts of how well food will grow at a time when the world is confronting shortages.

Center Pivot Irrigation systems can irrigate 400 acres at once, while being controlled by a system that receives data from a satellite on the amount of soil moisture available. The computer is programed with the crop being grown, it calculates the size of the crop from growing degree days. The amount of water needed is computed from transpiration rates and ground moisture information delivered from field weather stations and satellite data. Basically, all the farmer sees pursuant to what irrigation has provided is a data report delivered to his office computer, and from truck window surveillance, the size increase of his crop.

I have no problem agreeing to disagree with you on certain matters concerning moisture monitoring irrigation, and we will leave it at that.

puppypaws
07-11-2010, 01:03 AM
I guess you missed this paws.

http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php?p=1951980&postcount=5

This doc provides a relatively comprehensive review of smart technology with respect to controllers ... including pricing for most.

I started to read this until I noticed it is very outdated infromation, there have been a number of changes in technology since this was written.

Kiril
07-11-2010, 01:42 AM
I started to read this until I noticed it is very outdated infromation, there have been a number of changes in technology since this was written.

2007 is not outdated. Perhaps you could expand on all the new changes with respect to irrigation and soil moisture monitoring for residential/commercial landscapes since 2007?

With respect to your other post, it is irrelevant nor is that tech even close to being widely accessible or for that matter even really new. Furthermore we aren't talking about Ag, or about all the new tech that is being researched with respect to that ..... and quite honestly you would be amazed at some of the research being conducted.

Kiril
07-11-2010, 02:22 AM
Believe me when I tell you there is technology far advanced to anything most can imagine in soil moisture monitoring, turf grass moisture monitoring is in the stone ages compared to field crop monitoring for irrigation purposes. There is a new modeling product that uses data from the Advanced Microwave Scanning Radiometer for EOS (AMSR-E) sensor on NASA's Aqua satellite, that can give you soil moisture readings from anywhere on the earths surface. This satellite data can be fed to receivers on center pivot irrigation systems, allowing it the ability to moisture feed a crop based on exact needs, instead of a farmers best guess.

The statement I made about detecting Russia's crop production is true, the same as NASA's Aqua satellite is capable of reading soil moisture in every crop growing country in the world enabling our government to estimate at all times how food crops are advancing. NASA researchers are using satellite data to deliver a kind of space-based humanitarian assistance. They are cultivating the most accurate estimates of soil moisture – the main determinant of crop yield changes – and improving global forecasts of how well food will grow at a time when the world is confronting shortages.

Center Pivot Irrigation systems can irrigate 400 acres at once, while being controlled by a system that receives data from a satellite on the amount of soil moisture available. The computer is programed with the crop being grown, it calculates the size of the crop from growing degree days. The amount of water needed is computed from transpiration rates and ground moisture information delivered from field weather stations and satellite data. Basically, all the farmer sees pursuant to what irrigation has provided is a data report delivered to his office computer, and from truck window surveillance, the size increase of his crop.

I was reading this again, and to be perfectly honest paws, you need to do some reading. If you are truly interested I will pull research pubs out of my archive tomorrow for you so you can understand what you are discussion is all about, what is involved, and the inherit limitations. Let it suffice to say, remote sensing is not, nor will ever be, more accurate than in situ measurements. More convenient and more affordable, quite likely, but not more accurate.

puppypaws
07-11-2010, 09:47 AM
I was reading this again, and to be perfectly honest paws, you need to do some reading. If you are truly interested I will pull research pubs out of my archive tomorrow for you so you can understand what you are discussion is all about, what is involved, and the inherit limitations. Let it suffice to say, remote sensing is not, nor will ever be, more accurate than in situ measurements. More convenient and more affordable, quite likely, but not more accurate.

Please explain the specific content you can dispute in the post below you claimed was reread? I have access to the teaching elite in every type of irrigation known to man, no need to furnish publications, some of which material came from knowledge provided by people I have access to.

"Situ measurements require that the instrumentation be located directly at the point of interest and in contact with the subject of interest. In contrast, remote sensors are located some distance away from the subject of interest."

This is not a confirmation that your claim of "situ measurement" is more accurate, only that the measuring devices are located in a more close proximity to the point of concern. This is not suggesting your remote measurements are not as accurate, depending on your measuring equipments location. In laymen's terms, locate the "remote sensing" equipment to the same parameters as the "situ equipment" and you will gather the same + or - information, do you agree with this?


Believe me when I tell you there is technology far advanced to anything most can imagine in soil moisture monitoring, turf grass moisture monitoring is in the stone ages compared to field crop monitoring for irrigation purposes. There is a new modeling product that uses data from the Advanced Microwave Scanning Radiometer for EOS (AMSR-E) sensor on NASA's Aqua satellite, that can give you soil moisture readings from anywhere on the earths surface. This satellite data can be fed to receivers on center pivot irrigation systems, allowing it the ability to moisture feed a crop based on exact needs, instead of a farmers best guess.

The statement I made about detecting Russia's crop production is true, the same as NASA's Aqua satellite is capable of reading soil moisture in every crop growing country in the world enabling our government to estimate at all times how food crops are advancing. NASA researchers are using satellite data to deliver a kind of space-based humanitarian assistance. They are cultivating the most accurate estimates of soil moisture – the main determinant of crop yield changes – and improving global forecasts of how well food will grow at a time when the world is confronting shortages.

Center Pivot Irrigation systems can irrigate 400 acres at once, while being controlled by a system that receives data from a satellite on the amount of soil moisture available. The computer is programed with the crop being grown, it calculates the size of the crop from growing degree days. The amount of water needed is computed from transpiration rates and ground moisture information delivered from field weather stations and satellite data. Basically, all the farmer sees pursuant to what irrigation has provided is a data report delivered to his office computer, and from truck window surveillance, the size increase of his crop.

Kiril
07-11-2010, 11:16 AM
Please explain the specific content you can dispute in the post below you claimed was reread? I have access to the teaching elite in every type of irrigation known to man, no need to furnish publications, some of which material came from knowledge provided by people I have access to.

"Situ measurements require that the instrumentation be located directly at the point of interest and in contact with the subject of interest. In contrast, remote sensors are located some distance away from the subject of interest."

This is not a confirmation that your claim of "situ measurement" is more accurate, only that the measuring devices are located in a more close proximity to the point of concern. This is not suggesting your remote measurements are not as accurate, depending on your measuring equipments location. In laymen's terms, locate the "remote sensing" equipment to the same parameters as the "situ equipment" and you will gather the same + or - information, do you agree with this?

And here I thought I had access to the "teaching elite". When did NC surpass CA in Ag research and crop production?

How exactly do you 'locate the "remote sensing" equipment to the same parameters as the "situ equipment" 'when we are talking a satellite?
You do understand what in situ means ..... right?

Paws .... ask yourself how remote sensing data, specifically AMSR-E, is validated for accuracy with respect to soil moisture and you will have answered your own questions. If perhaps, you read some of these papers you have access to, you might realize this, and how your statement concerning "most accurate estimates of soil moisture" is somewhat less than accurate. Perhaps if you could demonstrate how AMSR-E IS more accurate than say .... gravimetric methods, or neutron probe?

Turf grass soil moisture monitoring is in the stone age? Do you have anything to validate this statement? Aren't you the one who said anything is possible if you have enough money to throw at it? FYI .... one of the services I provide is geospatial mapping and analysis of soil moisture, .... and yes, that includes turf grass. I would hardly consider that stone age .... would you?

How about this tech?

http://ugmo.com/technology/



The above are two examples of what I was referring to.



BTW ... A few pubs for you to comment on.

http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/bitstream/2014/17464/1/99-0917.pdf

http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.rse.2008.03.007

http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.rse.2005.02.003

http://hal.ird.fr/ird-00394903/


Perhaps you could present some pubs as well, in the event I haven't already seen them.

So ...... weren't we talking about affordable irrigation control via soil moisture sensing? Got anything with respect to that yet?

Kiril
07-11-2010, 12:31 PM
Checking my distributor for current list prices

Calsense 16 zone controller and soil moisture sensor ....

ET2016E 16 STA ET CONTROLLER: $2687.50
1000-S SOIL MOISTURE SENSOR: $262.50

And that is only the base controller and a single sensor. Here are a few more list prices.

Baseline BL-5315 (single sensor only): $249.00

Rainbird SMRT-Y (single sensor w/ sensor interface): $199

puppypaws
07-11-2010, 03:29 PM
And here I thought I had access to the "teaching elite". When did NC surpass CA in Ag research and crop production?

How exactly do you 'locate the "remote sensing" equipment to the same parameters as the "situ equipment" "when we are talking a satellite?
You do understand what in situ means ..... right?

As stated in your above comment, "when we are talking a satellite," you will notice in my statement there was no mention of satellite gathered information. The statement was made, "In laymen's terms, locate the "remote sensing" equipment to the same parameters as the "situ equipment" and you will gather the same + or - information."

"Situ measurements require that the instrumentation be located directly at the point of interest and in contact with the subject of interest. In contrast, remote sensors are located some distance away from the subject of interest."

This is not a confirmation that your claim of "situ measurement" is more accurate, only that the measuring devices are located in a more close proximity to the point of concern. This is not suggesting your remote measurements are not as accurate, depending on your measuring equipments location. In laymen's terms, locate the "remote sensing" equipment to the same parameters as the "situ equipment" and you will gather the same + or - information, do you agree with this?


How about this tech?

http://ugmo.com/technology/

QUOTE:

Once UgMO™ sensors are installed, AST agronomists consult with you to evaluate site-specific conditions necessary to develop an optimal “UgMO™ Zone” using our wireless soil sensors’ key information. • Threshold levels are carefully established at each sensor site to monitor your rootzone and recommend the right combination of moisture, salinity and temperature for each location to keep you “in the zone.”On a real-time basis, you will know how to manage your turf and remain “in the zone” and keep your turf in optimal condition.
AST agronomists provide ongoing consultation to discuss threshold adjustments, other modifications and even predictive capabilities.

The above is confirming exactly what I've said all along, and it came directly from the link you provided.





And here I thought I had access to the "teaching elite". When did NC surpass CA in Ag research and crop production?

Well, lets just take a look and see what states produce the mainstay of the American diet. I believe you can see from data below there is not a great deal of difference in ag production between NC and CA. Some of the best crop science minds in the world are in NC, the same as I would believe there are in CA as well.

VEGETABLES / CA - ID - WA - WI - FL

BEEF / TX - NE - KS - CA - OK

PORK / IA - NC - MN - IL - NE

CHICKENS / GA - AR - AL - NC - MS

TURKEYS / MN - NC - AR - VA - MO

CORN / IA - IL - NE - MN - IN

Kiril
07-11-2010, 10:07 PM
The above is confirming exactly what I've said all along, and it came directly from the link you provided.

WTF are you talking about? It does no such thing. You know, you seem to be a smart guy and all, but damn dude, stop walking out on that weak limb and talking in circles!

Well, lets just take a look and see what states produce the mainstay of the American diet.

WOW! You are seriously going to pit NC against CA for Ag production?

Now you are just spinning in the wind. We are discussing irrigation (crop and landscape), not livestock. From the 2007 Ag census (see attached for downloaded data)

Total crop sales CA: 22,903,021,000
Total crop sales NC: 2,606,279,000

Total crop sales on irrigated (all) land CA: 21,048,725,000
Total crop sales on irrigated (all) land NC : 521,542,000

Total crop sales on non-irrigated land CA: 276,274,000
Total crop sales on non-irrigated land NC: 1,352,010,000


Looks like you are about 20 billion short on both production and irrigated production. Hell, over half of your ag output isn't even irrigated. Hmmmmm.

Lets check out the number of operations.

Total crop operations with sales CA: 48,901
Total crop operations with sales NC: 23,575

Damn ...... CA has more then double the number of crop operations than NC.

Total crop operations with no irrigation CA: 6,382
Total crop operations with no irrigation NC: 18,678

Oooops. Hey paws .... go ahead and figure out what percentages are. Awww heck .... I'll do it for you.

Percentage of irrigated operations in CA: ~87%
Percentage of irrigated operations in NC: ~21%

Yikes .... that limb just broke. So Paws ... you want to continue on with your claims about NC? Want to compare research next?

I did notice how you ignored my questions/points with regard to the tech you brought up, nor have you addressed the issue of affordable soil moisture sensing. You seem like a nice guy and all, but damn dude, have some respect for the readers of this site.

ajslands
07-11-2010, 10:12 PM
So should you water at night?
Posted via Mobile Device

Kiril
07-11-2010, 10:48 PM
I missed this.

As stated in your above comment, "when we are talking a satellite," you will notice in my statement there was no mention of satellite gathered information. The statement was made, "In laymen's terms, locate the "remote sensing" equipment to the same parameters as the "situ equipment" and you will gather the same + or - information."

Now we aren't talking about a satellite?

Believe me when I tell you there is technology far advanced to anything most can imagine in soil moisture monitoring, turf grass moisture monitoring is in the stone ages compared to field crop monitoring for irrigation purposes. There is a new modeling product that uses data from the Advanced Microwave Scanning Radiometer for EOS (AMSR-E) sensor on NASA's Aqua satellite, that can give you soil moisture readings from anywhere on the earths surface. This satellite data can be fed to receivers on center pivot irrigation systems, allowing it the ability to moisture feed a crop based on exact needs, instead of a farmers best guess.

Once again .... you are talking in circles, nor does it appear you have a grasp on the difference between "in situ" vs. remote. Come on paws .... do some damn reading.

I will ask again ... do you want to discuss this tech and the inherent problems associated with it? Can point me to a site that has such a system for sale per your description? I am curious what it would cost to implement such a solution, despite it's limitations, and what would be involved in setting it up.

puppypaws
07-11-2010, 10:53 PM
So should you water at night?
Posted via Mobile Device

Yes, you should water at night, the ideal time is just before, to right after daybreak.

ajslands
07-11-2010, 10:57 PM
WAY OFF TOPIC but your avatar is awsome! my dog even likes it :D

puppypaws
07-11-2010, 10:58 PM
I missed this.



Now we aren't talking about a satellite?



Once again .... you are talking in circles, nor does it appear you have a grasp on the difference between "in situ" vs. remote. Come on paws .... do some damn reading.

I will ask again ... do you want to discuss this tech and the inherent problems associated with it? Can point me to a site that has such a system for sale per your description? I am curious what it would cost to implement such a solution, despite it's limitations, and what would be involved in setting it up.

OK, what ever you say works for me!

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=193772&stc=1&d=1278853308

Kiril
07-11-2010, 11:29 PM
OK, what ever you say works for me!

Come on paws. You started us down this path ..... why? Certainly you didn't believe I was in the dark on this subject? Simply knowing that something exists does not impart understanding of the subject. If you would simply do some reading so you would understand, then we could actually have a productive conversation.

Here you go. I'll even throw out some more papers I found in my archive on AMSR-E for you to read.

http://www.hydrol-earth-syst-sci.net/13/1887/2009/hess-13-1887-2009.pdf

http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/bitstream/2014/39899/1/06-1303.pdf

http://www.ghcc.msfc.nasa.gov/surface_hydrology/publications/njoku_cal_paper_final.pdf

http://www.hydrol-earth-syst-sci-discuss.net/6/1055/2009/hessd-6-1055-2009-print.pdf

http://www.asprs.org/publications/proceedings/baltimore09/0098.pdf

http://gest.umbc.edu/student_opp/2004_gssp_reports/AlokSahoo.pdf

http://www.isprs.org/proceedings/XXXVIII/8-W3/B4/5-11_ISRO%20F.pdf


Here is a list of pubs from the NSIDC

http://nsidc.org/data/amsre/research.html

Here is a summary of AMSR-E, also from NSIDC

http://nsidc.org/data/docs/daac/ae_land3_l3_soil_moisture.gd.html

Note the following.

Theory of Measurements

Please refer to the AMSR-E/Aqua L2B Surface Soil Moisture, Ancillary Parameters, & QC EASE-Grids documentation for more information on theory of measurements.

Measurements of soil moisture are most accurate in areas of low vegetation. Attenuation from vegetation increases the retrieval error in soil moisture (Njoku et al. 2002). Surface type classifications are assigned to indicate low and moderate vegetation, and retrievals are not performed in dense vegetation.

The retrieval algorithm does not explicitly model effects of topography, snow cover, clouds, and precipitation. Other potential error sources include anomalous inputs from bad radiometric data and low-level processing errors. The processing algorithm includes checks to identify these and other anomalies and assign appropriate flags (Njoku 1999).

Soil moisture retrievals represent averages over the horizontal retrieval footprint area. For example, it is assumed that if half of the retrieval footprint is bare soil and half is vegetated, then the output retrieved quantity is the vegetation water content of just the vegetation in the vegetated part of the footprint; however, this is not true. If half the footprint is bare with 0 kg m-2, and the other half is vegetated with 6 kg m-2, then the output retrieved quantity will be 3 kg m-2 representing the average over the footprint. Similarly, for soil moisture if half the footprint is urban with 0 g cm-3 soil moisture and the other half is soil with 20 g cm-3 moisture, then the retrieved value will be close to 10 g cm-3, which is not the soil moisture of the soil-covered area, but is closer to the footprint average value.

Soil moisture retrievals represent vertical sampling depth in the top ~1 cm of soil. The actual sampling depth varies with the amount of moisture in the soil. Soil moisture deeper than ~1 cm below the surface may not be sensed by AMSR-E.

The 6.9 GHz channel is shared with mobile communication services; therefore, retrievals using this frequency are subject to Radio Frequency Interference (RFI), particularly near large urban land areas. The soil moisture algorithm uses the 10.7 GHz channel to mitigate the RFI problem. Refer to the Derivation Techniques and Algorithms section in this document.

Refer to Njoku et al. (2004) for an assessment of calibration biases over land, and methods used to correct these biases.


I enjoy talking tech ... but please do the necessary research before hand paws.

rtharris
07-13-2010, 01:10 PM
Come on paws. You started us down this path ..... why? Certainly you didn't believe I was in the dark on this subject? Simply knowing that something exists does not impart understanding of the subject. If you would simply do some reading so you would understand, then we could actually have a productive conversation.

Here you go. I'll even throw out some more papers I found in my archive on AMSR-E for you to read.

http://www.hydrol-earth-syst-sci.net/13/1887/2009/hess-13-1887-2009.pdf

http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/bitstream/2014/39899/1/06-1303.pdf

http://www.ghcc.msfc.nasa.gov/surface_hydrology/publications/njoku_cal_paper_final.pdf

http://www.hydrol-earth-syst-sci-discuss.net/6/1055/2009/hessd-6-1055-2009-print.pdf

http://www.asprs.org/publications/proceedings/baltimore09/0098.pdf

http://gest.umbc.edu/student_opp/2004_gssp_reports/AlokSahoo.pdf

http://www.isprs.org/proceedings/XXXVIII/8-W3/B4/5-11_ISRO%20F.pdf


Here is a list of pubs from the NSIDC

http://nsidc.org/data/amsre/research.html

Here is a summary of AMSR-E, also from NSIDC

http://nsidc.org/data/docs/daac/ae_land3_l3_soil_moisture.gd.html

Note the following.

Theory of Measurements

Please refer to the AMSR-E/Aqua L2B Surface Soil Moisture, Ancillary Parameters, & QC EASE-Grids documentation for more information on theory of measurements.

Measurements of soil moisture are most accurate in areas of low vegetation. Attenuation from vegetation increases the retrieval error in soil moisture (Njoku et al. 2002). Surface type classifications are assigned to indicate low and moderate vegetation, and retrievals are not performed in dense vegetation.

The retrieval algorithm does not explicitly model effects of topography, snow cover, clouds, and precipitation. Other potential error sources include anomalous inputs from bad radiometric data and low-level processing errors. The processing algorithm includes checks to identify these and other anomalies and assign appropriate flags (Njoku 1999).

Soil moisture retrievals represent averages over the horizontal retrieval footprint area. For example, it is assumed that if half of the retrieval footprint is bare soil and half is vegetated, then the output retrieved quantity is the vegetation water content of just the vegetation in the vegetated part of the footprint; however, this is not true. If half the footprint is bare with 0 kg m-2, and the other half is vegetated with 6 kg m-2, then the output retrieved quantity will be 3 kg m-2 representing the average over the footprint. Similarly, for soil moisture if half the footprint is urban with 0 g cm-3 soil moisture and the other half is soil with 20 g cm-3 moisture, then the retrieved value will be close to 10 g cm-3, which is not the soil moisture of the soil-covered area, but is closer to the footprint average value.

Soil moisture retrievals represent vertical sampling depth in the top ~1 cm of soil. The actual sampling depth varies with the amount of moisture in the soil. Soil moisture deeper than ~1 cm below the surface may not be sensed by AMSR-E.

The 6.9 GHz channel is shared with mobile communication services; therefore, retrievals using this frequency are subject to Radio Frequency Interference (RFI), particularly near large urban land areas. The soil moisture algorithm uses the 10.7 GHz channel to mitigate the RFI problem. Refer to the Derivation Techniques and Algorithms section in this document.

Refer to Njoku et al. (2004) for an assessment of calibration biases over land, and methods used to correct these biases.


I enjoy talking tech ... but please do the necessary research before hand paws.
Posted via Mobile Device

rtharris
07-13-2010, 01:21 PM
This I know more than you sheet needs to stop no one is impressed i mean were watering grass here not sending a man to the moon and im sure everyone reading this can be impressive in their own fields maybe you and paws need to meet at Dennys and finish this discussion
Posted via Mobile Device

Kiril
07-13-2010, 02:02 PM
This I know more than you sheet needs to stop no one is impressed i mean were watering grass here not sending a man to the moon and im sure everyone reading this can be impressive in their own fields maybe you and paws need to meet at Dennys and finish this discussion

With potable water supplies dwindling all over the world, it might benefit you to learn how to manage your water resources efficiently. FYI, one of the first places people look to save water when supplies are low are landscapes. Turf grass, being the largest consumer of that resource, means it will also be hit the hardest when watering restrictions/bans are put in place. If you want to continue on in this industry, it might be a good idea to pay attention, especially if you live in areas that require irrigation.

rtharris
07-13-2010, 03:28 PM
With potable water supplies dwindling all over the world, it might benefit you to learn how to manage your water resources efficiently. FYI, one of the first places people look to save water when supplies are low are landscapes. Turf grass, being the largest consumer of that resource, means it will also be hit the hardest when watering restrictions/bans are put in place. If you want to continue on in this industry, it might be a good idea to pay attention, especially if you live in areas that require irrigation.

Thanks for the lecture now get back to ur learned friends and save a tree or something professor
By the way this is the homeowners forum and im not an lco and i dont water at all just came here for some common sense suggestionsPosted via Mobile Device

WirelessG
07-13-2010, 03:42 PM
My toilets and taps run, but I don't care. I also leave a propane tank burning all year long as my contribution to global warming.:dizzy:

rtharris
07-13-2010, 04:12 PM
My toilets and taps run, but I don't care. I also leave a propane tank burning all year long as my contribution to global warming.:dizzy:

LMAO
Posted via Mobile Device

Cloud9Landscapes
07-13-2010, 05:20 PM
With potable water supplies dwindling all over the world, it might benefit you to learn how to manage your water resources efficiently. FYI, one of the first places people look to save water when supplies are low are landscapes. Turf grass, being the largest consumer of that resource, means it will also be hit the hardest when watering restrictions/bans are put in place. If you want to continue on in this industry, it might be a good idea to pay attention, especially if you live in areas that require irrigation.

Is that so? Take a look at this chart distributed by the state of California:

Statewide distribution of water:
http://www.sod.com/images/Water_Pie_Chart.GIF

If anything, they need to make agricultural irrigation requirements more strict. Only %3 of California's water goes to landscapes. And that includes shrubs, trees and flowers.

Kiril
07-13-2010, 08:16 PM
Thanks for the lecture now get back to ur learned friends and save a tree or something professor
By the way this is the homeowners forum and im not an lco and i dont water at all just came here for some common sense suggestionsPosted via Mobile Device

Then ask a question and quit crying.

Kiril
07-13-2010, 08:56 PM
Is that so? Take a look at this chart distributed by the state of California:

Statewide distribution of water:
http://www.sod.com/images/Water_Pie_Chart.GIF

If anything, they need to make agricultural irrigation requirements more strict. Only %3 of California's water goes to landscapes. And that includes shrubs, trees and flowers.

You are reaching here dude ... and where exactly did you get that chart? If anything, people should stop living in areas without natural water resources ... like SoCal.

Per this survey conducted in 2000, domestic water use in CA is 286 million gallons per day, hardly insignificant.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/circ/2004/circ1268/htdocs/table06.html

How much you wanna bet the majority of that is outdoor uses? I'm sure DWR has more up to date data.

How about the new water efficiency ordinance? Care to comment on that?

http://www.water.ca.gov/wateruseefficiency/docs/MWELO09-10-09.pdf

If landscape water use is so insignificant, then why are we seeing more and more landscape watering restrictions/bans across the country, including CA?

Did you (or anyone else) bother to search the Internet for issues regarding potable water supplies around the country and world?

rtharris
07-14-2010, 08:48 AM
Then ask a question and quit crying.
Posted via Mobile Device

rtharris
07-14-2010, 08:53 AM
No sense asking you anything kiril u have no common sense u live in a book somewhere
Posted via Mobile Device

Kiril
07-14-2010, 10:14 AM
No sense asking you anything kiril u have no common sense u live in a book somewhere

So you are here just to cry, whine, and insult people. Got it.

cgaengineer
07-14-2010, 10:19 AM
No doubt landscape watering is a big hit to our water supply, but the main reason we have such a problem is that we have outgrown our watershed lakes due to a population increase. The climate has not changed in Georgia or other states, but the population has. It got so bad during the last drought that there was zero outdoor watering allowed and the governor was telling people to limit their time in the shower and we still have lakes that we almost dry. This tells me we have too many people and not enough water.

I remember the drought we had 20+ years ago where we didn't have water restrictions...we also had 1/2 the population in this county that we have now.
Posted via Mobile Device

Kiril
07-14-2010, 10:29 AM
This year is fairly good with respect to drought, so far, compared to the past couple of years.

http://drought.unl.edu/dm/monitor.html

However, in those areas that pump ground water, the problems don't go away that quickly.

cgaengineer
07-14-2010, 10:48 AM
Yeah that can be bad for some areas. The lake from which my water comes from is filled with large pumps from a good sized river. During the drought our county was limited to how many GPD we could pump from this river, the EPD limited this amount per day so the county didn't suck the river dry for the people down stream. Its was pretty bad for a few months and really sickening to see the reduced shorelines on all the lakes. We are now in a dry period but the lakes and rivers are doing pretty well and for the first time in I don't know how long Lake Lanier is full.
Posted via Mobile Device

rtharris
07-14-2010, 11:48 AM
So you are here just to cry, whine, and insult people. Got it.
Posted via Mobile Device

rtharris
07-14-2010, 12:00 PM
Kiril one thing i have learned from u is that u never agree with anyone and u love to try to put down everone elses opinion If the Lord himself told u how to do anything u would disagree and cite some journal as ur source u seem to have no problem insulting others so why should i worry about insulting you
[ur an educated bore that thinks u know it allsize=1]Posted via Mobile Device[/size]

Kiril
07-14-2010, 12:21 PM
If someone presents an opinion as a statement of fact, or simple a "fact" that I know to be wrong, I will point it out. If you consider that an insult ... too bad. If people don't like being corrected then should take more care to make sure the information they present on this forum is accurate. FYI ... I don't post on subjects I know nothing about .... unlike some people.

Stillwater
07-14-2010, 12:39 PM
I leave the faucet on when I brush my teeth

cgaengineer
07-14-2010, 01:19 PM
I leave the faucet on when I brush my teeth

I on the other hand do the following:

If its yellow let it mellow, if its brown flush it down. (Sarcastic)
Posted via Mobile Device

Kiril
07-14-2010, 01:26 PM
I leave the faucet on when I brush my teeth

I let the water run when I am taking a shower.

cgaengineer
07-14-2010, 01:35 PM
I let the water run when I am taking a shower.

How wasteful of you...I wash my clothes with water.
Posted via Mobile Device

rtharris
07-14-2010, 03:07 PM
If someone presents an opinion as a statement of fact, or simple a "fact" that I know to be wrong, I will point it out. If you consider that an insult ... too bad. If people don't like being corrected then should take more care to make sure the information they present on this forum is accurate. FYI ... I don't post on subjects I know nothing about .... unlike some people.
Posted via Mobile Device

rtharris
07-14-2010, 03:24 PM
Posted via Mobile DeviceKiril

Let me get this straight ur info is always correct and others info always needs correcting Im sure your a smart guy Kiril but i doubt ur that smart and if u are u need to find a forum up to ur intelligence level and stop ridiculing ones on here that have their own data
i seriously doubt urs is always correctPosted via Mobile Device

Kiril
07-14-2010, 03:43 PM
i seriously doubt urs is always correct

If any information I post is incorrect, then I expect to be corrected. Fact of the matter is, I can provide links to credible resources to back information I present. That said, if someone disagrees with some information I have posted, then you better have credible publications to support your position because I can guarantee you I will have credible pubs to back mine.

Now when I post an opinion, I make it clear it is an opinion by either actually typing "IMO", or "personally", or some other appropriate language to indicate an opinion is being presented. I don't present opinion as a "fact", unlike many people do on this site.

For example .... IMO, turf grass on postage stamp lots should be restricted to back yards.

See ... that is an opinion, not a statement of fact.

Here is another opinion.

In my experience lawn boys don't know the first thing about irrigation scheduling.

See opinion .... not fact. Some lawn boys might know how to properly schedule an irrigation system, however in my experience, they do not.

Do we need more lessons in clear and concise communication?

rtharris
07-14-2010, 04:15 PM
If any information I post is incorrect, then I expect to be corrected. Fact of the matter is, I can provide links to credible resources to back information I present. That said, if someone disagrees with some information I have posted, then you better have credible publications to support your position because I can guarantee you I will have credible pubs to back mine.

Now when I post an opinion, I make it clear it is an opinion by either actually typing "IMO", or "personally", or some other appropriate language to indicate an opinion is being presented. I don't present opinion as a "fact", unlike many people do on this site.

For example .... IMO, turf grass on postage stamp lots should be restricted to back yards.

See ... that is an opinion, not a statement of fact.

Here is another opinion.

In my experience lawn boys don't know the first thing about irrigation scheduling.

See opinion .... not fact. Some lawn boys might know how to properly schedule an irrigation system, however in my experience, they do not.

Do we need more lessons in clear and concise communication?
Posted via Mobile Device

rtharris
07-14-2010, 04:17 PM
Posted via Mobile Device
Posted via Mobile Device

benjammin
07-14-2010, 04:21 PM
Do we need more lessons in clear and concise communication?

Posted via Mobile Device

apparently "yes"

;-)

rtharris
07-14-2010, 04:23 PM
Kiril be careful with the exception of ur last comment i was almost starting to think that u were part human
Posted via Mobile Device

WirelessG
07-14-2010, 06:52 PM
Good grief! Somebody better hijack this thread before a fist fight breaks out....I guess I'll do it:

What did Mr. Spock find in the toilet while the Enterprise's washing machine leaked in the middle of drought?

Captain's log.

cgaengineer
07-14-2010, 10:12 PM
I am sitting here watching my sprinkler put down about 15 gpm on my reel mowed lawn and its 9:10 pm...what's gonna happen to my bermuda?
Posted via Mobile Device

T.M. LAWNS
07-14-2010, 10:17 PM
Good grief! Somebody better hijack this thread before a fist fight breaks out....I guess I'll do it:

What did Mr. Spock find in the toilet while the Enterprise's washing machine leaked in the middle of drought?

Captain's log.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

T.M. LAWNS
07-14-2010, 10:21 PM
I am sitting here watching my sprinkler put down about 15 gpm on my reel mowed lawn and its 9:10 pm...what's gonna happen to my bermuda?
Posted via Mobile Device

It's going to turn green or (stay green ) and your bermuda will thankyou. :drinkup:

cgaengineer
07-14-2010, 10:23 PM
It's going to turn green or (stay green ) and your bermuda will thankyou. :drinkup:

That's what I figured. I thought since god gave us rain at night I would do the same.
Posted via Mobile Device

WirelessG
07-14-2010, 10:49 PM
I know I'm not watering at night. I have a company coming out late this week or early next week to look at my lawn. The guy is with Scotts (which seems to bother me a little bit), but he was recommended by John Deere. Since most in here seem to have positive things to say about John Deere, I figured I should be able to trust them. I hope this works out. Puppy Paws had suggested that I quit watering my lawn to dry out/kill the fungus, which is fine, but I don't know if it will ever be dry enough to see that happen in these parts. My turf looks terrible. I put out more fungicide last weekend. This time I used Heritage. So that's a total of 3 fungicide applications (F-Stop, cheap Bayer stuff, Heritage) in four weeks (2 weeks between applications) and I may see a difference in a week, but I kinda doubt it. I spent a pile of money on my turf and it's a shame to see it look the way it looks now.

ajslands
07-14-2010, 10:55 PM
So is it good to water for a few moments at like 11 am to cool the grass down?
Posted via Mobile Device

cgaengineer
07-14-2010, 11:03 PM
I know I'm not watering at night. I have a company coming out late this week or early next week to look at my lawn. The guy is with Scotts (which seems to bother me a little bit), but he was recommended by John Deere. Since most in here seem to have positive things to say about John Deere, I figured I should be able to trust them. I hope this works out. Puppy Paws had suggested that I quit watering my lawn to dry out/kill the fungus, which is fine, but I don't know if it will ever be dry enough to see that happen in these parts. My turf looks terrible. I put out more fungicide last weekend. This time I used Heritage. So that's a total of 3 fungicide applications (F-Stop, cheap Bayer stuff, Heritage) in four weeks (2 weeks between applications) and I may see a difference in a week, but I kinda doubt it. I spent a pile of money on my turf and it's a shame to see it look the way it looks now.

Did you ever consider that just maybe its not a fungus and its something else?
Posted via Mobile Device

cgaengineer
07-14-2010, 11:05 PM
So is it good to water for a few moments at like 11 am to cool the grass down?
Posted via Mobile Device

Yeah, then in the evening after a long hard day of being green! Nothing watching my grass sitting back having a cold one! I also water multiple times per day to keep its thirst quenched.
Posted via Mobile Device

WirelessG
07-14-2010, 11:13 PM
Did you ever consider that just maybe its not a fungus and its something else?
Posted via Mobile Device

There probably is more too it than fungus, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to know what it is. I tried the coffee can bug test and found nothing. The only thing that I am fairly certain of is that I get brown patch over the winter and leaf spot all summer. I say that I am fairly certain simply from comparing the grass to pictures of brown spot and leaf spot.

In any event, I hope that the guy from Scotts can help. I told the salesman at John Deere that I didn't want someone like TruGreen to come out with a ding bat and spread useless/harmful crap all over the place and he assured me that this guy did not fall into that category.

cgaengineer
07-14-2010, 11:17 PM
There probably is more too it than fungus, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to know what it is. I tried the coffee can bug test and found nothing. The only thing that I am fairly certain of is that I get brown patch over the winter and leaf spot all summer. I say that I am fairly certain simply from comparing the grass to pictures of brown spot and leaf spot.

In any event, I hope that the guy from Scotts can help. I told the salesman at John Deere that I didn't want someone like TruGreen to come out with a ding bat and spread useless/harmful crap all over the place and he assured me that this guy did not fall into that category.

Well in any case a fungicide application won't be cheap. I would honestly find a local guy to take a look at it...to heck with Scotts, they care about sales, not your lawn. The Scotts drivers also don't know much about grass...most are not even licensed.
Posted via Mobile Device

WirelessG
07-15-2010, 01:09 AM
No kidding on the fungicide cost. If I treat it myself at 4lbs every 4 weeks or so with F-Stop or Heritage, I'm looking at $1,000 per year. The Scott's guy is licensed and as I said previously he came highly recommended from John Deere. We'll see.

rtharris
07-15-2010, 08:32 AM
I know I'm not watering at night. I have a company coming out late this week or early next week to look at my lawn. The guy is with Scotts (which seems to bother me a little bit), but he was recommended by John Deere. Since most in here seem to have positive things to say about John Deere, I figured I should be able to trust them. I hope this works out. Puppy Paws had suggested that I quit watering my lawn to dry out/kill the fungus, which is fine, but I don't know if it will ever be dry enough to see that happen in these parts. My turf looks terrible. I put out more fungicide last weekend. This time I used Heritage. So that's a total of 3 fungicide applications (F-Stop, cheap Bayer stuff, Heritage) in four weeks (2 weeks between applications) and I may see a difference in a week, but I kinda doubt it. I spent a pile of money on my turf and it's a shame to see it look the way it looks now.
Posted via Mobile Device

rtharris
07-15-2010, 08:34 AM
Posted via Mobile Device
Posted via Mobile Device

rtharris
07-15-2010, 08:39 AM
Wireless if ur lawn stays so damp that u dont think it will dry enough to kill the fungus as paws suggested why have u been watering at all
Posted via Mobile Device

Kiril
07-15-2010, 09:09 AM
I know I'm not watering at night. I have a company coming out late this week or early next week to look at my lawn. The guy is with Scotts (which seems to bother me a little bit), but he was recommended by John Deere. Since most in here seem to have positive things to say about John Deere, I figured I should be able to trust them. I hope this works out. Puppy Paws had suggested that I quit watering my lawn to dry out/kill the fungus, which is fine, but I don't know if it will ever be dry enough to see that happen in these parts. My turf looks terrible. I put out more fungicide last weekend. This time I used Heritage. So that's a total of 3 fungicide applications (F-Stop, cheap Bayer stuff, Heritage) in four weeks (2 weeks between applications) and I may see a difference in a week, but I kinda doubt it. I spent a pile of money on my turf and it's a shame to see it look the way it looks now.

Start a yearly compost top dress and start building permanent natural checks. Chicken litter compost would probably be best for fungus control if you can find it. Dumping fungicides on it might get you temporary relief, but it is not a long term solution, nor is it doing your soil or turf any good.

WirelessG
07-15-2010, 10:35 AM
Wireless if ur lawn stays so damp that u dont think it will dry enough to kill the fungus as paws suggested why have u been watering at all
Posted via Mobile Device

The only time I water (in general) is when it doesn't rain all week, which is rare. Here, lately, I watered the lawn after applying fertilizer or fungicide (I dropped fertilizer twice this year as the grass was in such rough condition and I hadn't fertilized in a couple years in an attempt to quit feeding the fungus - it's a catch 22).

I imagine that it would take 2-3 weeks of drought in order to get to Puppy Paws level of dryness and that would be difficult in these parts.

WirelessG
07-15-2010, 10:39 AM
Start a yearly compost top dress and start building permanent natural checks. Chicken litter compost would probably be best for fungus control if you can find it. Dumping fungicides on it might get you temporary relief, but it is not a long term solution, nor is it doing your soil or turf any good.

That's interesting, Kiril. I would have thought that the chicken litter would add a lot of N to the soil and encourage the fungus.

I have some areas of my lawn that are on 20 deg slopes. Is there any way to keep top dress from washing away? I would like to top dress my lawn with soil/sand since guy that sodded the yard did a terrible job and there are lumps and holes all over the place.

One other thing - how bad would chicken litter stink and for how long?

Kiril
07-15-2010, 11:39 AM
That's interesting, Kiril. I would have thought that the chicken litter would add a lot of N to the soil and encourage the fungus.

http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php?p=3053321&postcount=11

I have some areas of my lawn that are on 20 deg slopes. Is there any way to keep top dress from washing away? I would like to top dress my lawn with soil/sand since guy that sodded the yard did a terrible job and there are lumps and holes all over the place.

Compost will reduce erosion. I wouldn't be all that concerned about it washing away unless you have a flood. Compost won't fix your lumps and holes ... use top soil mixed with compost for that.

One other thing - how bad would chicken litter stink and for how long?

Composted chicken/poultry litter doesn't really stink IMO. Even if you find it objectionable, in my experience the smell goes away in a couple of days.

puppypaws
07-15-2010, 11:48 AM
That's interesting, Kiril. I would have thought that the chicken litter would add a lot of N to the soil and encourage the fungus.

I have some areas of my lawn that are on 20 deg slopes. Is there any way to keep top dress from washing away? I would like to top dress my lawn with soil/sand since guy that sodded the yard did a terrible job and there are lumps and holes all over the place.

One other thing - how bad would chicken litter stink and for how long?

You can grow grass in a paved road with chicken or turkey litter, I've used thousands of tons over the years on my crops. It is the only thing I've found that when you clear an area of new crop ground, chicken or turkey litter at 12,000 lbs. per acre with water will produce a good crop in the first year. You can pour all the N-P-K and lime you can afford on the newly cleared ground, and it will only produce a very poor crop. The major and minor elements in poultry litter are what makes all the difference. Kril, will need to explain his thinking about poultry litter being a cure for fungus, I have no idea of what he is talking about.

The only thing I am familiar with that kills fungus dead in its tracks is dry weather. There are only a couple of things that can cause severe turf grass problems, taken you have good healthy soil and adequate moisture, that is disease and insects.

I personally use "Headline" fungicide in soybeans at the R-2 stage (just beginning to flower), I use it more to extend the production time of the crop than to fight fungus.

A person can sell their next new born and possibly afford to fight fungus for one year in turf grass, it is very expensive fighting fungus with a fungicide, when hot dry weather is the best cure.

I read the article Kril provided and it refers to suppression of fungal disease, not erradication through poultry litter application.

Kiril
07-15-2010, 12:09 PM
I read the article Kril provided and it refers to suppression of fungal disease, not erradication through poultry litter application.

It's not meant to be a fungicide, or a method of eradication, but rather a means to build natural checks to fungal problems. Turf grass soils that I manage with compost have almost no problems with disease of any kind. In fact some have had no disease of any kind for many years. These sites also get little to no other fertilizer inputs, and little to no pesticide inputs to the best of my knowledge.

puppypaws
07-15-2010, 12:36 PM
It's not meant to be a fungicide, or a method of eradication, but rather a means to build natural checks to fungal problems. Turf grass soils that I manage with compost have almost no problems with disease of any kind. In fact some have had no disease of any kind for many years. These sites also get little to no other fertilizer inputs, and little to no pesticide inputs to the best of my knowledge.

Believe me when I tell you I am very aware poultry litter is not meant to be a fungicide, and I know how it works in the soil. I am required by law, because I produce and use chicken litter on crop land; to soil sample, and sample the litter being applied every year, (which is totally ridiculous, every three years in my soil types are sufficient). I have several poultry litter samples, I can scan a poultry litter sample if you would care to see the elements and amounts in chicken litter. When you buy composted poultry litter it provides information in a sense; I would suppose, but the litter samples I have; show exactly what is in the makeup when it comes from the chicken's butt.

Kiril
07-15-2010, 12:54 PM
Believe me when I tell you I am very aware poultry litter is not meant to be a fungicide, and I know how it works in the soil. I am required by law, because I produce and use chicken litter on crop land; to soil sample, and sample the litter being applied every year, (which is totally ridiculous, every three years in my soil types are sufficient). I have several poultry litter samples, I can scan a poultry litter sample if you would care to see the elements and amounts in chicken litter. When you buy composted poultry litter it provides information in a sense; I would suppose, but the litter samples I have; show exactly what is in the makeup when it comes from the chicken's butt.

Soil physical/chemical aspects aside .... with respect to soils, disease and pests in turf, my primary objective is using compost (of any kind) to build ecological diversity, which helps keep problems with disease and pests, if/when they do occur, at acceptable levels. IMO, the more diverse your compost source material is ... the better.

puppypaws
07-15-2010, 01:26 PM
Soil physical/chemical aspects aside .... with respect to soils, disease and pests in turf, my primary objective is using compost (of any kind) to build ecological diversity, which helps keep problems with disease and pests, if/when they do occur, at acceptable levels. IMO, the more diverse your compost source material is ... the better.

I have the same objective, to keep the micro organisms healthy and happy, but also to feed the crop being produced the necessary amounts of Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Potassium, Calcium, Magnesium, Sulfur, Iron, Manganese, Zinc, Copper, and Boron while monitoring the PH in an attempt to maintain a 6.5 level. This is my reason for applying poultry litter to all crops grown in my operation.

Kiril
07-15-2010, 01:32 PM
I have the same objective, to keep the micro organisms healthy and happy, but also to feed the crop being produced the necessary amounts of Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Potassium, Calcium, Magnesium, Sulfur, Iron, Manganese, Zinc, Copper, and Boron while monitoring the PH in an attempt to maintain a 6.5 level.

Yes ... the benefits that can be obtained from compost are numerous. IMO, it is the most beneficial input for just about any managed site.

cgaengineer
07-15-2010, 02:39 PM
You should be able to find bagged chicken litter compost. Its a low nitrogen product but should do wonders for nearly any soil. A company named Turfnology near me sells it and its labeled with its NPK values.
Posted via Mobile Device

txgrassguy
07-15-2010, 03:26 PM
I am chiming in late to this post so if any of this has been said already - oh well.

The absolutely worst maintenance practice imaginable on C3 turf is to irrigate at night. Simply put the stomal pores are closed so efficient up take of irrigation water is extremely limited. Plus the night time moisture acts as an accelerant towards the formation of soil and leaf pathogens.
That said, if the only time you can water is at night then it needs to be quite sparingly with an eye towards how quickly you can get the leaf tissue/soil profile dry to the point of field capacity. So water at 4:00 am then whip the excess moisture off of the plant if at all possible.
C4 turfgrass is pretty much opposite when irrigating as night time is culturally the most apt.
On C3 turf, if you can - meaning a system is available to shut off the water so something like a hose end isn't running all day, start the watering right at day break in the area you know receives the most sunlight. Failing that, depending upon ambient temps noon time or thereabouts is also good for a syringe cycle.

Bear in mind if you do have to water at night for whatever reason, maintenance of the undecomposed organic matter layer either at the plant crown or the thatch layer itself is critical towards minimizing pathogens attacking the C3 turf.
So bag your clippings when mowing, aerify frequently and top dress with straight sand whenever possible to encourage a good infiltration process with the irrigation water.

puppypaws
07-15-2010, 04:04 PM
I am chiming in late to this post so if any of this has been said already - oh well.

The absolutely worst maintenance practice imaginable on C3 turf is to irrigate at night. Simply put the stomal pores are closed so efficient up take of irrigation water is extremely limited. Plus the night time moisture acts as an accelerant towards the formation of soil and leaf pathogens.
That said, if the only time you can water is at night then it needs to be quite sparingly with an eye towards how quickly you can get the leaf tissue/soil profile dry to the point of field capacity. So water at 4:00 am then whip the excess moisture off of the plant if at all possible.
C4 turfgrass is pretty much opposite when irrigating as night time is culturally the most apt.
On C3 turf, if you can - meaning a system is available to shut off the water so something like a hose end isn't running all day, start the watering right at day break in the area you know receives the most sunlight. Failing that, depending upon ambient temps noon time or thereabouts is also good for a syringe cycle.

Bear in mind if you do have to water at night for whatever reason, maintenance of the undecomposed organic matter layer either at the plant crown or the thatch layer itself is critical towards minimizing pathogens attacking the C3 turf.
So bag your clippings when mowing, aerify frequently and top dress with straight sand whenever possible to encourage a good infiltration process with the irrigation water.

Iowa State University Quote:

When to Water

The appearance of the turfgrass is the best way to determine when to water the lawn. The ideal time to water a lawn is at the first signs of water stress. Turfgrasses receiving adequate supplies of water are normally dark green in color. One of the first signs of water stress for cool-season grasses, such as bluegrass, is a bluish green color. Footprints that remain in the turf after walking across an area are another sign of water stress.

Frequency and Amount of Water to Apply

Most lawns require approximately 1 to 1 1/2 inches of water per week. When watering the lawn, apply this amount in a single application or possibly 2 applications 3 or 4 days apart. Avoid frequent, light applications of water, which promote shallow rooting and lush growth. Lush, shallow-rooted turfgrass is less drought tolerant. It is also more susceptible to pest problems. To determine the amount of water applied by a sprinkler, place 2 or 3 rain gauges within the spray pattern.

Time of Day to Water

Early morning (5 a.m. to 9 a.m.) is the best time to water a lawn. A morning application allows the water to soak deeply into the soil with little water lost to evaporation. When watering is completed, the turfgrass foliage dries quickly. Watering at mid-day is less efficient because of rapid evaporation and strong winds may cause uneven water distribution. Strong, mid-day winds may also carry water onto driveways, sidewalks, or streets, wasting considerable amounts of water. Watering lawns in late afternoon or evening may increase disease problems.

puppypaws
07-15-2010, 06:09 PM
You should be able to find bagged chicken litter compost. Its a low nitrogen product but should do wonders for nearly any soil. A company named Turfnology near me sells it and its labeled with its NPK values.
Posted via Mobile Device

Chicken litter is high in nitrogen, what was done to remove it before bagging?

This came directly out of the "2010 North Carolina Agricultural Chemicals Manual." You will see where broiler litter inside the poultry house is listed as having 72.1 lbs. per ton. Once it is spread and the sun causes volatilization there is about 30 to 40 lbs. of crop usable nitrogen per ton, and I spread 6 tons per acre.

puppypaws
07-15-2010, 06:41 PM
Krill, here is an email I was sent today, read the articles over and give me your opinion, especially on the 2 set point Acclima system?

QUOTE:

As I have been traveling around the state the last few days with turf issues and it looks like I will not be back in the office until next Friday due to programs, site visits, etc. I mentioned there are a range of products from about $150 add-on kits like the Rainbird system below to the more sophisticated 2-set-point system by Acclima that will run about $2000. Interesting to note that Acclima makes the Rainbird system and it is re-badged. There are other brands available but these are two prominent and well-tested systems.

I also included some publications written by my former University of Florida colleagues. We started testing these systems about 10 years ago in Florida. There has not been too much change with the ones that have been successful.

Sincerely,

Grady Miller


How do soil moisture sensor irrigation controllers work?

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/AE/AE43700.pdf


Residential Irrigation based on soil moisture

http://www.acclima.com/wd/acclimadocs/research/re02.pdf


Tools for Turfgrass Irrigation Water Management.

http://www.acclima.com/wd/acclimadocs/research/re11.pdf



Soil Moisture Products:

Rainbird SMRT-Y Soil Moisture Sensor Kit [a one set-point system]

http://www.rainbird.com/homeowner/products/timers/SMRTY.htm


Acclima’s two set-point system [so it automatically adjusts as needed]

http://acclima.com/wd/index.php/commercial/cs3500








Grady L. Miller, PhD | Professor and Extension Turf Specialist
Crop Science Department | North Carolina State University
Box 7620 | Raleigh, NC 27695-7620 | (O): 4123A Williams Hall
(: 919-515-5656 | Fax (: 919-515-5315 | * grady_miller@ncsu.edu

WirelessG
07-15-2010, 09:04 PM
Kiril et al -


Attached are some pics of my turf.

161 and 163 show the grade i the backyard. This is the 20 degree slope that I was concerned about with respect to top dressing. It's too steep to mow across the slope and there's a lot of area on the roof to collect rain. I was hoping someone would know of some sort of fabric that could be nailed down after top dressing that would allow water and grass blade penetration while holding the dirt in place. I'm not saying that you are wrong about the chicken poop holding its own on the slope - just reiterating a concern. (In fact, I had a landscaping company come by and fill in potholes with top soil. The patches turn horizontal, so now I have half potholes on a rakish angle.) What sort of application rate would you suggest. In addition, you stated that all of your crops/lawns that were treated with chicken litter did quite well. Do you have any reason to think it would be any worse or better in Mississippi as opposed to California? I'm interested in trying it, but I wanted to pick your brain a little bit more.

158 and 156 show the spotty nature of the grass in several areas this year. I was wondering about cinch, but wouldn't that have subsided by now? It's been like this for 2-3 months.

160 shows how the weeds took over some of the dead spots and the St Aug hasn't reclaimed its territory.

I have a couple more pics that I will post next.

WirelessG
07-15-2010, 09:15 PM
Here are the last few pics.

157 and 160 show what the "good turf" looks like up close and 159 is show the "good turf" overall. I say good turf because I think it still has problems.

164 shows the grass just off the back porch where the ground is flat and where the turf would tend to stay wet the most.

I do appreciate all of you taking the time to comment on my posts. :)

puppypaws
07-15-2010, 09:21 PM
Here are the last few pics.

157 and 160 show what the "good turf" looks like up close and 159 is show the "good turf" overall. I say good turf because I think it still has problems.

164 shows the grass just off the back porch where the ground is flat and where the turf would tend to stay wet the most.

I do appreciate all of you taking the time to comment on my posts. :)

That grass looks to be diseased, Cinch bugs can kill grass, as well as damaging it to the point fungus also begins. Has there been an over abundance of water on this grass?

QUOTE:

Cinch Bugs

The Southern Cinch Bug displays a preference for St. Augustine grass, which is the typical variety of grass in our lawns. The Southern Cinch Bug thrives during the warm summer months. If any of area of your St. Augustine lawn is beginning to yellow and die, be on the look out for cinch bugs.

The adult cinch bug has a black body measuring about 6 mm in length with wings that are white with a black spot on the margins of the forewings. They have needle-like mouth parts and feed by inserting their slender beak into the grass blades and sucking the plant juices. As it sucks the juices, it releases a toxin that causes yellowish, brownish patches in the lawn.

txgrassguy
07-15-2010, 10:25 PM
puppypaws - you just proved my point for me.

Thank you.

puppypaws
07-16-2010, 08:25 AM
puppypaws - you just proved my point for me.

Thank you.

You are more than welcome, I believed that would carve in stone what you said.....Thumbs Up

Kiril
07-16-2010, 09:31 AM
Krill, here is an email I was sent today, read the articles over and give me your opinion, especially on the 2 set point Acclima system?

I don't know what you want my opinion on, other than the Acclima CS3500 retails between $2500 - 3000 for the controller only.

Kiril
07-16-2010, 09:49 AM
161 and 163 show the grade i the backyard. This is the 20 degree slope that I was concerned about with respect to top dressing. It's too steep to mow across the slope and there's a lot of area on the roof to collect rain. I was hoping someone would know of some sort of fabric that could be nailed down after top dressing that would allow water and grass blade penetration while holding the dirt in place. I'm not saying that you are wrong about the chicken poop holding its own on the slope - just reiterating a concern.

Top soil and a compost top dress are two different things. Your typical compost top dress will be 1/4" - 1/2", and the grass will hold it in place. That said, if you have significant surface drainage down that slope you will get some erosion. There are studies on using compost on steep slopes as erosion control if you need more information.

What is the status of your irrigation here?

(In fact, I had a landscaping company come by and fill in potholes with top soil. The patches turn horizontal, so now I have half potholes on a rakish angle.) What sort of application rate would you suggest. In addition, you stated that all of your crops/lawns that were treated with chicken litter did quite well. Do you have any reason to think it would be any worse or better in Mississippi as opposed to California? I'm interested in trying it, but I wanted to pick your brain a little bit more.

The compost I have used has turkey litter in it. There is no reason to think your results would be any different, however depending on the status of your soil, irrigation, and other management practices, your mileage will vary. Typically when moving away from synthetics, you can expect 3-5 years for stabilizing.

First thing you need to do is get a proper soil audit. Based on your pics, I would suggest you split up your sampling.

puppypaws
07-16-2010, 09:52 AM
I don't know what you want my opinion on, other than the Acclima CS3500 retails between $2500 - 3000 for the controller only.

Explain how after the hard parts of the irrigation system are installed, take it from that point forward, installing everything it takes for the Acclima controller to run the irrigation system. Then explain how much owner association the system would need and why to keep it functioning to its maximum capability. What would be the price for everything the Acclima system needs to operate the irrigation system to maximum efficiency?

Kiril
07-16-2010, 10:07 AM
Explain how after the hard parts of the irrigation system are installed, take it from that point forward, installing everything it takes for the Acclima controller to run the irrigation system. Then explain how much owner association the system would need and why to keep it functioning to its maximum capability. What would be the price for everything the Acclima system needs to operate the irrigation system to maximum efficiency?

You are kidding ..... right? Even if I were inclined to do this, which I am not, not enough information has been provided.

WirelessG
07-16-2010, 10:39 AM
[QUOTE=puppypaws;3642846]That grass looks to be diseased, Cinch bugs can kill grass, as well as damaging it to the point fungus also begins. Has there been an over abundance of water on this grass?

Perhaps. Sometimes we will get 4 substantial rains in one week in MS. The areas that show leaf spot are flat areas where the water would drain slowly. The patchy looking areas are on slopes.

The guy form Scott's cam out last night. He struck me as an honest and knowledgeable guy. He said he thought that I had a couple fairy rings in the front yard and that I have gray leaf spot in some areas. He didn't see any signs of bugs. When I explained my bewilderment over the condition of the grass, he told me that a lot of lawns were struggling this year due to the freezes that we experienced last winter. However, it seems to me that the patchy ares would have crept together by now (they get fertilized and watered).

Anyhow, he quoted my $106 for an application of fertilizer/insecticide/herbicide, which I thought was a reasonable price. Of course, I can do it my self for less than half. I think I may let them work the lawn this year and see what happens. On the fungicide he quoted me $235, which is expensive, but a do-it-yourself Heritage treatment runs me about $150. If I don't use him for fertilizer, I may try cornmeal for fertilizer/fungicide for the rest of the year and see where that gets me.

cgaengineer
07-16-2010, 10:46 AM
Chicken litter is high in nitrogen, what was done to remove it before bagging?

This came directly out of the "2010 North Carolina Agricultural Chemicals Manual." You will see where broiler litter inside the poultry house is listed as having 72.1 lbs. per ton. Once it is spread and the sun causes volatilization there is about 30 to 40 lbs. of crop usable nitrogen per ton, and I spread 6 tons per acre.

It was only 5% nitrogen if I recall correctly and I assume it was heated to destroy weed seeds. This is a retail product especially manufactured in a way to be pelletized and easily spread with a spreader. I will try to get the name and label next time I go if I can remember.
Posted via Mobile Device

WirelessG
07-16-2010, 10:47 AM
Top soil and a compost top dress are two different things. Your typical compost top dress will be 1/4" - 1/2", and the grass will hold it in place. That said, if you have significant surface drainage down that slope you will get some erosion. There are studies on using compost on steep slopes as erosion control if you need more information.

What is the status of your irrigation here?

The compost I have used has turkey litter in it. There is no reason to think your results would be any different, however depending on the status of your soil, irrigation, and other management practices, your mileage will vary. Typically when moving away from synthetics, you can expect 3-5 years for stabilizing.

First thing you need to do is get a proper soil audit. Based on your pics, I would suggest you split up your sampling.

As far as irrigation goes, I have 5 hose bibs on the house and I use impulse sprinklers. The only are that doesn't get direct water is at the bottom of the backyard, outside of the fence. The water table is very high there (there's a drainage creek that runs a few feet away from it) and the grass does not dry out.

Are you saying that if I went from fertilome to litter that the grass would struggle for 3-5 years as it adjusted?

MS State offers soil testing(http://msucares.com/crops/soils/testing.html). I read on their web page that they suggested taking 15-20 samples throughout the yard and mixing them in a pail and then sending them a pint of the dried mixture. I have about a half acre of turf. Do you think it would be more instructive to send in more samples of more discreet locations rather than one yard-wide blend?

ajslands
07-16-2010, 10:58 AM
Yeah, then in the evening after a long hard day of being green! Nothing watching my grass sitting back having a cold one! I also water multiple times per day to keep its thirst quenched.
Posted via Mobile Device

Sarcasim?
Posted via Mobile Device

cgaengineer
07-16-2010, 11:14 AM
Sarcasim?
Posted via Mobile Device

Of course!
Posted via Mobile Device

Chilehead
07-16-2010, 11:17 AM
Come on Steve...some people are not that fortunate.

I haven't installed one because we have total watering bans around here come June/July and all outdoor watering is prohibited. A well is prohibited because of the small lot size and the cost of one is about $5000.

So if you install an irrigation system around here and you are on city/county water its a total waste....unless you have a thing for donating money to an irrigation company.
Posted via Mobile Device

I have decided to start installing rain water harvesting systems. The amount of water runoff from driveways and roofs can equate to thousands of gallons from even a 20-minute shower. The water is routed to an underground cistern (glorified poly tank) that holds 1500-2000 gallons. Cost for the tank and pump is in the $1900-range. Considering that a new meter alone costs about that much (if not more), a cistern is truly a viable option.

puppypaws
07-16-2010, 11:19 AM
[QUOTE=puppypaws;3642846]That grass looks to be diseased, Cinch bugs can kill grass, as well as damaging it to the point fungus also begins. Has there been an over abundance of water on this grass?

Perhaps. Sometimes we will get 4 substantial rains in one week in MS. The areas that show leaf spot are flat areas where the water would drain slowly. The patchy looking areas are on slopes.

The guy form Scott's cam out last night. He struck me as an honest and knowledgeable guy. He said he thought that I had a couple fairy rings in the front yard and that I have gray leaf spot in some areas. He didn't see any signs of bugs. When I explained my bewilderment over the condition of the grass, he told me that a lot of lawns were struggling this year due to the freezes that we experienced last winter. However, it seems to me that the patchy ares would have crept together by now (they get fertilized and watered).



Cut the ends out of a coffee can or anything comparable, drive it into the ground at the edge of one of the dead looking areas, pour water into the can to the point of total saturation, if there are Cinch bugs there they will come to the top.

You are kidding ..... right? Even if I were inclined to do this, which I am not, not enough information has been provided.

What more could you need, you have an area of turf grass with everything installed for irrigation except for the controller and monitoring devices, go to it!

cgaengineer
07-16-2010, 11:26 AM
I have decided to start installing rain water harvesting systems. The amount of water runoff from driveways and roofs can equate to thousands of gallons from even a 20-minute shower. The water is routed to an underground cistern (glorified poly tank) that holds 1500-2000 gallons. Cost for the tank and pump is in the $1900-range. Considering that a new meter alone costs about that much (if not more), a cistern is truly a viable option.

That's a pretty good idea...even better would be treating onsite sewage to be sprayed or use drip emitters across the lawn. The drip emitters are already approved in GA but the system is expensive, the spray irrigation has not been approved yet. Depending on use you are looking at 2000-4000 gallons per month...all of that is waste without one of these systems.
Posted via Mobile Device

Stillwater
07-16-2010, 11:45 AM
I have a cinch issue aswell not happy.......

Kiril
07-16-2010, 12:31 PM
As far as irrigation goes, I have 5 hose bibs on the house and I use impulse sprinklers. The only are that doesn't get direct water is at the bottom of the backyard, outside of the fence. The water table is very high there (there's a drainage creek that runs a few feet away from it) and the grass does not dry out.

Impulse sprinklers running off a hose bib? Have you calculated a precipitation rate for the hill using those sprinklers? Are you getting runoff?

Are you saying that if I went from fertilome to litter that the grass would struggle for 3-5 years as it adjusted?

No. It can take up to 3-5 years to get the nutrient cycling established to the point where little to no ferts are needed. How long it takes depends on the current status of your soil and what damage you have done to it with all the chems being applied. If you need to run a bridging program to get there, then that is what you will do.

MS State offers soil testing(http://msucares.com/crops/soils/testing.html). I read on their web page that they suggested taking 15-20 samples throughout the yard and mixing them in a pail and then sending them a pint of the dried mixture. I have about a half acre of turf. Do you think it would be more instructive to send in more samples of more discreet locations rather than one yard-wide blend?

Soil sampling should be roughly split up based on hydrozones ... then on site characteristics. In order for a single set of samples to make any sense from a management standpoint, conditions in the sample area need to be relatively homogeneous. Given the pics of your sloped area, I might consider 3 sets of 10-20 cores -> top of the slope, the slope, bottom of the slope. Since there doesn't appear to be much difference between the top of the slope and the slope in the fenced area, you might combine those together and use the "top of the slope" sampling in another area ... say front yard or left side of house as your looking at it from the bottom of the slope.

WirelessG
07-16-2010, 12:43 PM
That's a pretty good idea...even better would be treating onsite sewage to be sprayed or use drip emitters across the lawn. The drip emitters are already approved in GA but the system is expensive, the spray irrigation has not been approved yet. Depending on use you are looking at 2000-4000 gallons per month...all of that is waste without one of these systems.
Posted via Mobile Device

In my neighborhood there are no sewer lines, so everyone has to have their own mini treatment plant. I have a corner lot across the road from a lake and the there's a drainage creek that runs from the lack into my backyard. When the County carried out their first evaluation, they told me that I need to spread 5" of sand over 15,000 sqft. I grabbed the treatment plant contractor and met the County inspector and we agreed to set the spray heads in the front of the property and that the spray heads would turn 360 degrees, so they spray on my lawn to a limited extent, but mostly in the woods. Had it been a city inspector, I may have been forced to spread the sand, which would have been expensive. In any event, overland discharge of treated sewage is (or is supposed to be) heavily regulated.

WirelessG
07-16-2010, 12:48 PM
Impulse sprinklers running off a hose bib? Have you calculated a precipitation rate for the hill using those sprinklers? Are you getting runoff?



No. It can take up to 3-5 years to get the nutrient cycling established to the point where little to no ferts are needed. How long it takes depends on the current status of your soil and what damage you have done to it with all the chems being applied. If you need to run a bridging program to get there, then that is what you will do.



Soil sampling should be roughly split up based on hydrozones ... then on site characteristics. In order for a single set of samples to make any sense from a management standpoint, conditions in the sample area need to be relatively homogeneous. Given the pics of your sloped area, I might consider 3 sets of 10-20 cores -> top of the slope, the slope, bottom of the slope. Since there doesn't appear to be much difference between the top of the slope and the slope in the fenced area, you might combine those together and use the "top of the slope" sampling in another area ... say front yard or left side of house as your looking at it from the bottom of the slope.

I wouldn't know how to calculate the precipitation rate. When I do water the lawn, I let it run for about 40 mins per area (running all 5 hoses is too taxing). I see what you are saying about the nutrient cycle. Your thoughts on the soil sampling make sense. Thanks

Kiril
07-16-2010, 01:05 PM
What more could you need, you have an area of turf grass with everything installed for irrigation except for the controller and monitoring devices, go to it!

The fact you asked "what more can you need" speaks volumes. Contrary to what you might think ... 2 wire systems are not the norm, even if it is becoming more widely used on large sites.

So .... is the installed irrigation already 2 wire? If it is 2 wire ... will it work with the new controller? How many hydrozones are we talking about? How many valves are we talking about? How many sensors are we talking about? Where are the valves located in relation to the hydrozone being controlled ... to the controller? What are the system specs with respect to flow and pressure? Are we going to monitor flow? etc........

Why exactly can't you do this yourself?

cgaengineer
07-16-2010, 02:53 PM
In my neighborhood there are no sewer lines, so everyone has to have their own mini treatment plant. I have a corner lot across the road from a lake and the there's a drainage creek that runs from the lack into my backyard. When the County carried out their first evaluation, they told me that I need to spread 5" of sand over 15,000 sqft. I grabbed the treatment plant contractor and met the County inspector and we agreed to set the spray heads in the front of the property and that the spray heads would turn 360 degrees, so they spray on my lawn to a limited extent, but mostly in the woods. Had it been a city inspector, I may have been forced to spread the sand, which would have been expensive. In any event, overland discharge of treated sewage is (or is supposed to be) heavily regulated.

It is regulated, not even legal here yet but they are working on it. Any grey water that is sprayed must have an inline chlorinator or some other method of treatment.
Posted via Mobile Device

puppypaws
07-16-2010, 06:04 PM
The fact you asked "what more can you need" speaks volumes. Contrary to what you might think ... 2 wire systems are not the norm, even if it is becoming more widely used on large sites.

So .... is the installed irrigation already 2 wire? If it is 2 wire ... will it work with the new controller? How many hydrozones are we talking about? How many valves are we talking about? How many sensors are we talking about? Where are the valves located in relation to the hydrozone being controlled ... to the controller? What are the system specs with respect to flow and pressure? Are we going to monitor flow? etc........

Why exactly can't you do this yourself?

Krill, here is an email I was sent today, read the articles over and give me your opinion, especially on the 2 set point Acclima system?

This is the question I asked, now, what is the definition of "two set point?"

Everything is in place we will use two zones for ease, 12/ 1gpm heads in each zone with a valve placed at the end of each zone. The maximum flow rate of a typical residential water service, rain monitor wired in to controller, "two set point" is a two wire system with everything in place. Now, for a homeowner to operate this system, with everything set to automatic, same amount of water delivered to each zone based on original setup, changes made only by information fed to controller from rain water monitor.

How much time, and what would be required of the owner to operate this simple system, just a good guess on your part? What would the cost be based on your idea of the number of soil moisture monitors needed, nothing in hard numbers, just an educated guess? We all know everything is cheaper in other parts of the country compared to California, but what would be your guess? I really only want the price above what would be the ordinary irrigation system, in other words how much would the frills cost?

Kiril
07-16-2010, 06:40 PM
Fine ... you want me to pull a number out of my ass? 10K +/- 2K for a 16 zone system.

Time it takes to operate ... the same time it takes to monitor and maintain any smart controlled irrigation system. Start up ... minimum of 2 verification checks during the season .... shutdown ... and that is after it is dialed in.

puppypaws
07-16-2010, 09:07 PM
Fine ... you want me to pull a number out of my ass? 10K +/- 2K for a 16 zone system.

Time it takes to operate ... the same time it takes to monitor and maintain any smart controlled irrigation system. Start up ... minimum of 2 verification checks during the season .... shutdown ... and that is after it is dialed in.

That is all I wanted to hear, from the first of this discussion I stated there is technology in place where an irrigation system can be design so as the home owner could have a virtually hands free operation. He can leave an it will take care of his lawn watering needs with no worries of adjusting and monitoring the system. I think we all realize nothing is 100% fool proof, but if everything is working as designed, it would be a no think, no worry, manage your irrigating needs, system.

Your own QUOTE:

Time it takes to operate ... the same time it takes to monitor and maintain any smart controlled irrigation system. Start up ... minimum of 2 verification checks during the season .... shutdown ... and that is after it is dialed in.

What you have described is what would be considered a hands free irrigation system, one that if initially set up correctly, with a minimum of 2 verification checks, manages all lawn irrigation, with no real thinking on the owner's part?

Thank you for your time!

Kiril
07-17-2010, 08:22 AM
That is all I wanted to hear, from the first of this discussion I stated there is technology in place where an irrigation system can be design so as the home owner could have a virtually hands free operation. He can leave an it will take care of his lawn watering needs with no worries of adjusting and monitoring the system. I think we all realize nothing is 100% fool proof, but if everything is working as designed, it would be a no think, no worry, manage your irrigating needs, system.

Any automatic controller will do that paws if you over water. That is what automatic means. Why do you think we have so much water waste with landscape irrigation?

BTW .. that number I pulled out of my ass was just to install the basic hardware. It didn't address scheduling, fine tuning, remote control, remote access, etc... Any controller, even the "smart" ones, take at least one growing season of fine tuning to optimize performance. System operation/verification checks can, and many times do, include adjustments to the controller, which are required, "smart" or not. Then you also have the need to operate the system outside of normal operating conditions, which once again, requires adjustments.

Your own QUOTE:

Time it takes to operate ... the same time it takes to monitor and maintain any smart controlled irrigation system. Start up ... minimum of 2 verification checks during the season .... shutdown ... and that is after it is dialed in.

What you have described is what would be considered a hands free irrigation system, one that if initially set up correctly, with a minimum of 2 verification checks, manages all lawn irrigation, with no real thinking on the owner's part?

No, that isn't what I described at all paws .... but if that is what you want to think so you can feel better makes no difference to me.

FYI ... any property owner can have "hands free" irrigation if they hire someone like me to manage it.

WirelessG
07-17-2010, 03:03 PM
I have a couple more pics of some sort of lawn disease. These spots show up inside and outside the fence in random locations, and they come and go all summer long. It's not from animals since it occurs inside the fence in areas where dog doesn't pee. It's always the shape of an insole or an ellipse and it measures about 8"x18". I asked the guy from Scotts about it and he said he's never come across this in his 20 years in the business. I don't see it as a serious issue as it never spreads like brown patch and there's only ever a few spots in the yard at a time (maybe 5-8 locations at a time), which, over half an acre of turf, is not highly noticeable, and they only last for a couple weeks at a time. Any ideas?

puppypaws
11-20-2010, 09:08 AM
Any automatic controller will do that paws if you over water. That is what automatic means. Why do you think we have so much water waste with landscape irrigation?


FYI ... any property owner can have "hands free" irrigation if they hire someone like me to manage it.


Kiril, here is some of the new technology coming into farm irrigation, no doubt the same technology can be used in landscape irrigation if affordable.

QUOTE:

ClimateMinder announced this week the
deployment of its state-of-the-art irrigation
controls that monitor soil moisture and crop
conditions every 20-40 acres independently
with wireless sensors and either boost or cut
back water, nutrient or pesticide applications
as needed. Their system is the latest example
of a new category of internet-based products
called “software as a service” (SaaS).

http://www.climateminder.com/index.html

Kiril
11-20-2010, 10:24 AM
Kiril, here is some of the new technology coming into farm irrigation, no doubt the same technology can be used in landscape irrigation if affordable.

QUOTE:

ClimateMinder announced this week the
deployment of its state-of-the-art irrigation
controls that monitor soil moisture and crop
conditions every 20-40 acres independently
with wireless sensors and either boost or cut
back water, nutrient or pesticide applications
as needed. Their system is the latest example
of a new category of internet-based products
called “software as a service” (SaaS).

http://www.climateminder.com/index.html

Maybe a new company, but not really new tech. Thanks for the link though. :)

jtraversweather
04-25-2012, 03:47 PM
check out our new weather site, LawnSite Weather. We hope to bring you some general tools to help manage your overall business and, to respond to this quote lawn irrigation. Today's Weather Blog, under the LawnSite weather tab offers maps like 24 hour precipitation amounts, start/stop times and total hours of precipitation, not to mention radar narratives giving the approximate amount of rain in the current radar echoes. We can also provide you detailed watering scheduling by hour online for up to 5 says with updates as needed...which can be manually input. Or, we can program weather past, present and future, soil moisture, type of grass, etc. directly into programmable watering systems. A little information on night-time watering in the Blog as well. If you are interested in our customized watering data email me at jtravers@weatherbriefings.com and I will provide details. Also, let us know what we can do to improve our LawnSite Weather Tab.
Thanks