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View Full Version : what to add to roundup for fast kill of bed weeds


grassmasterswilson
04-21-2010, 06:04 PM
What are you guys adding to your backpack sprayers to speed up the kill of weeds in beds, driveway cracks, etc? Diquat + Gly was suggested by my dealer. Never heard of Diquat but will be checking in. Do you remember the rate and cost?

grassmasterswilson
04-21-2010, 06:12 PM
so it appears that diquat is the product that is added to gly in pre mixed solutions like razorburn and quick pro. anyone used these products? is it cheaper to by razorburn or gly and reward and mix your own?

JB1
04-21-2010, 06:26 PM
try some scythe. http://www.biconet.com/lawn/scythe.html

grassmasterswilson
04-21-2010, 06:38 PM
JB1 - yeah I just found that in my chemical manual. Seems just what i'm looking for. any estimate on cost per gallon?

corbster
04-21-2010, 07:39 PM
385101 Scythe Contact Herbicide/Weed Killer, 1 gal (8.5#) $76.90
385121 Scythe Contact Herbicide/Weed Killer, 1 gal, 4/cs (40#) $262.00
385131 Scythe Contact Herbicide/Weed Killer, 2.5 gal (23#) $174.90
385141 Scythe Contact Herbicide/Weed Killer, 2.5 gal, 2/cs (46#) $304.00

WestGaPineStraw
04-21-2010, 11:22 PM
Octane, it works great!

grassman177
04-21-2010, 11:33 PM
used Quick pro for years nice offered, works super great, but for beds it is not a good idea i found the general dicline of the plants from repeated use of the diquat in it. this has been the obvservation of many i have heard. just my words of caution.

Snapper12
04-21-2010, 11:38 PM
Round up quick pro is great is nobody is going to track through the area for 48 - 72 hrs.

jspray
04-22-2010, 12:05 AM
MSMA works great adding much activity to nutgrass in beds.

BShaffer
04-22-2010, 12:34 AM
Roundup with a surfactant is you best bet. Reward which is Diquat will give you a really quick kill but if you mix it with roundup you defeat the purpose of the roundup. The roundup must be translocated to roots and stolons. if you burn the plant down the plant will wilt before the roundup is translocated. The surfactant helps break the surface tension in the leaf tissue and lets the chemical get into the plant better. Razorburn is roundup and reward, but becareful with using higher rates because you defeat the purpose. Try adding a surfactant and a pre-emergent and this will give you better long term results. Be cautious of the "Quick Kills"

Ric
04-22-2010, 12:47 PM
Roundup with a surfactant is you best bet. Reward which is Diquat will give you a really quick kill but if you mix it with roundup you defeat the purpose of the roundup. The roundup must be translocated to roots and stolons. if you burn the plant down the plant will wilt before the roundup is translocated. The surfactant helps break the surface tension in the leaf tissue and lets the chemical get into the plant better. Razorburn is roundup and reward, but becareful with using higher rates because you defeat the purpose. Try adding a surfactant and a pre-emergent and this will give you better long term results. Be cautious of the "Quick Kills"

BShaffer

Welcome to LS it is always good to read a post from someone with real knowledge. Monsanto Chemists spend years developing the Roundup Quick formulation using Diquat. I believe it is impossible to field mix Glyphosate and Diquat and get the same results. You are only wasting the Glyphosate.

Scythe ""Pelargonic acid"" doesn't burn quick enough to stop the Glyphosate from doing it's job. However you will never read that on a Monsanto Label. I am not sure of the reason but Monsanto never even looked a using Pelargonic Acid for corporate reasons. Pelargonic Acid is only made in Germany and is a very cheap chemical.

corbster

Time for you to shop suppliers. I am paying right at $ 40.00 a gallon for Scythe in one gallon bottles. 2.5 gallon jugs are even cheaper but I don't use that much in a years times because I don't offer weed spraying in beds.

grassman177
04-22-2010, 02:08 PM
is scythe not so harsh as diquat? diquat started to buildup in the soils after prolonged use and it was noticable. i switched back to gly with surfactant(not name brand any more) but the addition of scythe to hasten the kill with no ill effects would be advantagous. please more info on the long term effects of this with round up and beds

Ric
04-22-2010, 05:57 PM
is scythe not so harsh as diquat? diquat started to buildup in the soils after prolonged use and it was noticable. i switched back to gly with surfactant(not name brand any more) but the addition of scythe to hasten the kill with no ill effects would be advantagous. please more info on the long term effects of this with round up and beds

Grassman

Diquat has an Aquatic Label and only has a 8 hour half life in water. Therefore I find it hard to believe it will build up in the soil which also has water. Glyphosate also carries an Aquatic Label if no manufactures surfactants are added and goes inert almost on contact with water. Both Chemicals will get eaten by Microbial after they go inert. IMHO neither chemical is a major problem with residual.

grassmasterswilson
04-22-2010, 06:53 PM
so i went with octane instead of scythe. my dealer said some of the guys that tried scythe said it gave them a headache, but all they had was a 2.5 gallon jug and I didn't want to "try" something that expensive.

I had thought about gly with surfactant also. Sprayed some octane today so we'll see what happens.

lawnworker
04-22-2010, 08:16 PM
Any body ever use ivory snow dish washing liquid for a surfactant? I have tried it and it seems to work pretty well.

grassman177
04-22-2010, 08:16 PM
Grassman

Diquat has an Aquatic Label and only has a 8 hour half life in water. Therefore I find it hard to believe it will build up in the soil which also has water. Glyphosate also carries an Aquatic Label if no manufactures surfactants are added and goes inert almost on contact with water. Both Chemicals will get eaten by Microbial after they go inert. IMHO neither chemical is a major problem with residual.

it has surfactants in it, and i appreciate your input, but why did general plant health steadily decline and now i stopped using it they are better. i have heard this from others on here too. i guess it would be surfactants. i know it is not the gly, i am aware of how it works and why, but not the diquat. according to your comments, wouldnt it be the surfactants making it stick around longer than normal to cause this?

shawnk0000
04-22-2010, 10:21 PM
I add sureguard- $250 bucks worth does like 500 backpacks. Not recommened for planting beds though. I don't use round up though. I get credit extra. Same stuff as round up- you have to use a little more in the mix, but it is like half the price

Ric
04-23-2010, 01:03 AM
it has surfactants in it, and i appreciate your input, but why did general plant health steadily decline and now i stopped using it they are better. i have heard this from others on here too. i guess it would be surfactants. i know it is not the gly, i am aware of how it works and why, but not the diquat. according to your comments, wouldnt it be the surfactants making it stick around longer than normal to cause this?

Grassman

Sorry I can't give you an answer. I know we have a few Palms that response unfavorably to Glyphosate. I don't know if it is the Surfactant or A I that causes the problem. But I have never had a problem with Glyphosate stunting any of my ornamentals.

grassman177
04-23-2010, 08:43 AM
no issue like that either with gly and surfactant only, but with the diquat the shrubs got thinner, and overall health was just less, hard to describe but they were. so i stopped using it and it is all better. i do hate though waiting a week for weeds to die though, the quickpro def spoiled me and my customers, so you sure sythe does not have any ill effects like the diquat did, i may give it a try but would like your take first

ted putnam
04-23-2010, 09:36 AM
no issue like that either with gly and surfactant only, but with the diquat the shrubs got thinner, and overall health was just less, hard to describe but they were. so i stopped using it and it is all better. i do hate though waiting a week for weeds to die though, the quickpro def spoiled me and my customers, so you sure sythe does not have any ill effects like the diquat did, i may give it a try but would like your take first

There could be a synergistic effect between the two. However, it would make me wonder why monsanto would manufacture them together and not put something on the label about use in ornamental beds if this were the case. As Ric was saying about the palms, I did read an article in Landscape Management magazine this past year that said studies were showing that repeat use of Glyphosate around the base of trees was showing signs of damage from uptake. The damage was appearing like freeze damage. Just something I read...

Ric
04-23-2010, 10:26 AM
Yo

I might remind everyone that Roundup was the most successful mistake ever made. It was originally developed as a Growth Regulator that was later found to be an excellent non select herbicide. Then they discovered it was also a Select Herbicide and it changed Agriculture forever. BTW it is still used as a Growth Regulator on utility turf. I would guess for every jug we buy, the farmers buy a drum of Roundup.

Kevin M.
04-23-2010, 10:28 AM
These comments are great about round up and its cousins.

Grassman -- You mentioned that your plants are declining on your clients properties were you spray glyphosate. Now in all fairness Ric and I have the same soil structure essentially and thats almost pure sand and you probably have some totally off the wall different. This is just an observation from here in the south but could it be a pest, disease or maybe a cultural problem to why clients plant material is dying back or thinning out. I have never had problems with glyphosate making the plants decline but of course I do the total program with clients properties from bed and border control all the way up to mosquitoe controls.

Marcos
04-23-2010, 10:49 AM
is scythe not so harsh as diquat? diquat started to buildup in the soils after prolonged use and it was noticable. i switched back to gly with surfactant(not name brand any more) but the addition of scythe to hasten the kill with no ill effects would be advantagous. please more info on the long term effects of this with round up and beds

I 2nd grassman177's sentiment regarding gly + diquat in & around beds and especially sensitive or under-mulched trees.
I've personally heard too many reports of stunting over the last 4 to 5 years to believe it's some sort of coincidence.
Diquat was originally an aquatic herbicide. And that's where it should have stayed in my opinion.
Gly + Scythe at a very low, controlled rate (ie. 1 1/2 -2 oz / gal) is a much better & safer idea.

Then again, I believe too many contractors these days try to take advantage of the newer post emergent technologies & try to skimp on....or skip landscape pre- emergent altogether, or even worse, cut back on the mulch layer.
Bad ideas! :nono:

grassman177
04-23-2010, 04:15 PM
oh we use pre, switched to freehand this year and so far way better. we lost control of weeds with snapshot after so many years plus the freehand is labled for nutsedge and so far it is working.

this means less gly+whatever etc.

also, i stopped using the diquat enhanced round up over a year ago and all the plants have resumed normally and away from the "stunting" of sorts . i used only straight gly now and am getting pricing on sythe right now, any of you know the price offhand per oz or per 2.5 gal?

i think i will have good luck with this mixture according to label reading and reommendations on here from you guys.

BShaffer
04-23-2010, 04:21 PM
Ric,

Correct me if Im wrong but I know diquat is labeled primarliy for aquatics, and isn't it also labeled for some woody plants also. I haven't used it for a while so i dont remember. If so, there is the answer to the schrubs getting dinged. Not the surfactant or the roundup, its the diquat, could have been a little drift here and there and it keep them looking bad. I didnt know that about roundup being a mistake. I have a large field here ( 20 acres) at my golf course we maintain, and I was thinking about spraying it with roundup. It will kill the weeds and the bermuda will comeback. Partically this time of year. So now Im going to do it, what are the "growth regulator" rates? Where is hurricane heaven?

Ric
04-23-2010, 09:29 PM
Ric,

Correct me if Im wrong but I know diquat is labeled primarliy for aquatics, and isn't it also labeled for some woody plants also. I haven't used it for a while so i dont remember. If so, there is the answer to the schrubs getting dinged. Not the surfactant or the roundup, its the diquat, could have been a little drift here and there and it keep them looking bad. I didnt know that about roundup being a mistake. I have a large field here ( 20 acres) at my golf course we maintain, and I was thinking about spraying it with roundup. It will kill the weeds and the bermuda will comeback. Partically this time of year. So now Im going to do it, what are the "growth regulator" rates? Where is hurricane heaven?


BShaffer

I am going to step aside on the EFFECTS of Roundup being up taken by ornamental roots and causing decline. While I know of some Palm trees and Plants that are effected, I am not sure I know why.

Yes Diquat is labelled for terrestrial use as well as Aquatic. When I had mowing Crews we used both Glyphosate and Diquat in different back packs. Plants like Hibiscus can be killed with only a drop of over spray from Roundup.

Here in the South. Bahia and Bermuda both make a great Utility Turf. Both can be successfully Chemically Mowed with Roundup. See Section 8.10 on this Label. http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld07A011.pdf
However Bahia can be Chemically mowed once a year for a chem cost of $ 7.00 an acre with "Plateau". BUT the big problem with Plateau is the cost per gallon cost and qualifying to buy it. Hurricane Heaven Is South Florida FYI.

grassman177
04-24-2010, 08:44 AM
i had a feeling it was the diquat alone, but was trying to piece the info i was gettinghere together to form a possible answer. either way, no promlems anymore so i am trying the scythe next week mixed with gly

TX_yardguy
07-25-2010, 05:30 PM
So... How did it work out? The gly + scythe?

Think Green
07-25-2010, 06:45 PM
Ric,
I read the same article on the Combination of glyphosate and diquat dibromide to perform a faster burn down and response for glyphosate kill. I also found it to be of common sense to agree that for one herbicide to desiccate the water out of the foliage while the other needed time to translocate through the tissue to the root system. How could the two work together in harmony to be a totally effective herbicide. Did this combination herbicide prove to be a consistent killer, yes! Did it effect the return of certain weeds, yes! and some this combination did total kill on!!!!

I didn't really want to respond earlier because of the speculation and arguing that has been done on this forum over these two chemicals is ludicrous. I think that this combination product may have its benefits according to certain soil types while those of sandy soils it can produce adverse effects. The label may indicate this according to each states own registrations. For me............I have used the OTC bottles for trials and the results were quite well...............just like me adding fusilade and gly together in some instances.

Ric
07-25-2010, 09:41 PM
BShaffer

Welcome to LS it is always good to read a post from someone with real knowledge. Monsanto Chemists spend years developing the Roundup Quick formulation using Diquat. I believe it is impossible to field mix Glyphosate and Diquat and get the same results. You are only wasting the Glyphosate.

Scythe ""Pelargonic acid"" doesn't burn quick enough to stop the Glyphosate from doing it's job. However you will never read that on a Monsanto Label. I am not sure of the reason but Monsanto never even looked a using Pelargonic Acid for corporate reasons. Pelargonic Acid is only made in Germany and is a very cheap chemical.

corbster

Time for you to shop suppliers. I am paying right at $ 40.00 a gallon for Scythe in one gallon bottles. 2.5 gallon jugs are even cheaper but I don't use that much in a years times because I don't offer weed spraying in beds.

Think Green

Today was cut my grass day. I also Round up instead of weed eat. But the point is when I Field mix Diquat and Glyphosate and spray the base of Tall weeds, Only the base turns brown and the tops stay green for months.

Contact Herbicide like Diquat can keep smaller herbaceous plants from regrowing because they don't have enough Carbohydrate reserves to survive that regrowth.

dgw
07-25-2010, 09:48 PM
gly plus lesco spreader/sticker works fast and good for me

grassman177
07-25-2010, 09:48 PM
thanks for reviving the old thread. yes it works great, just got done spraying in between garden rows today. it is already burning the tips of leaves.

i am mixing 3oz gly and 3oz scythe and getting a great kill, and it stays dead, with not regrowth, all in a bout 3-4 days tops. before, i was mixing a 2oz ratio of each and it was no different than using straight gly and took a week to even 10 days for signs of kill, but usually died.

CaptainPike
07-26-2010, 12:39 AM
I'm no expert with roundup. I'm just getting started in the lawn business.

But one thing I do with roundup to make it slightly more effective is to add a little bit of dish soap.

I get the concentrate to use on my own yard. It already contains soap (or something else to make it stick), but adding a little liquid dish soap really makes it stick to the vegetation.

If you do this, be sure to use normal liquid dish soap. Nothing fancy. Foaming soaps won't work.

cgaengineer
07-26-2010, 01:09 PM
There could be a synergistic effect between the two. However, it would make me wonder why monsanto would manufacture them together and not put something on the label about use in ornamental beds if this were the case. As Ric was saying about the palms, I did read an article in Landscape Management magazine this past year that said studies were showing that repeat use of Glyphosate around the base of trees was showing signs of damage from uptake. The damage was appearing like freeze damage. Just something I read...

Was it splitting of the bark? If so I think I remember the article.

greendoctor
07-26-2010, 01:21 PM
Diquat will also girdle green stems and trunks. Just because it is not going to kill the whole plant like glyphosate, does not mean there is no effect. Palms have lots of surface roots. This could be a problem when the soil is pure sand and something systemic is sprayed on top.

Ric
07-26-2010, 02:25 PM
When John Franz was inducted in to the Inventors Hall of Fame for inventing Roundup, I wrote a long post about Roundup and John Franz. Unfortunate it was deleted when a couple of Wise A's started pimping that post. I always felt that was an excellent post and was sorry to see it go. But My point here is While Glyphosate has been the widest used and most Financially successful Pesticide ever, It has and continues to have issues. Some of these issues like collateral damage like we are talking about here are not as major as the Resistance factor that is now being seen in Agriculture. I am sure RCreech can better tell about Roundup Ready crops and resistance issues.

Here in Florida's citrus groves, Glyphosate is sprayed under every tree Multiply times a year. The reason is Citrus have a shallow Peripheral root system that can better up take oxygen from the roots if no turf or weeds cover them. Better yet is the Door Yard grower who cultivates under the drip line by hand. But once again my point is these mature trees have and continue to have Glyphosate applied to their roots with no apparent damage. BTW this generally is Ag Grade 5 pound loaded material and not the 4 pound we use. BUT I have also seen very young citrus trees get stunted by what we assumed was the Glyphosate.

Mark Oomkes
07-26-2010, 04:05 PM
it has surfactants in it, and i appreciate your input, but why did general plant health steadily decline and now i stopped using it they are better. i have heard this from others on here too. i guess it would be surfactants. i know it is not the gly, i am aware of how it works and why, but not the diquat. according to your comments, wouldnt it be the surfactants making it stick around longer than normal to cause this?

There could be a synergistic effect between the two. However, it would make me wonder why monsanto would manufacture them together and not put something on the label about use in ornamental beds if this were the case. As Ric was saying about the palms, I did read an article in Landscape Management magazine this past year that said studies were showing that repeat use of Glyphosate around the base of trees was showing signs of damage from uptake. The damage was appearing like freeze damage. Just something I read...

Was it splitting of the bark? If so I think I remember the article.

Beat me to it, I read the same thing.

To answer the Op's question, try Finale.

nik
07-30-2010, 02:59 PM
I would guess for every jug we buy, the farmers buy a drum of Roundup Our friends grow the cool season grass seed in the Willamette Valley. They do it on over 3,000 acres. They buy it by the 275 gallon tote.

My understanding of the purpose of Quikpro was to add just enough diquat to make the plant look like they were succumbing right away but the glyphosate did the actual work. Customer see you spray glyphosate and nothing happens for days on end the question what you did. You put in a tiny bit of diquat and the then there is some wilting right away and they can see something happening and they don't question it as much.

starry night
07-30-2010, 03:08 PM
I started reading this thread and, at first, didn't look at the date of the original posting. Now, I just went to the end to see who had revived it and when.
I don't know what is in the middle of the thread. I was going to suggest Scythe also. The prices quoted by someone earlier were too expensive compared to what I buy it for which is $64/gal or $132/ 2.5 gal.

Kiril
07-30-2010, 03:18 PM
What has always worked for me is when spraying, I angrily point my finger at the weeds and say in a loud voice .......

DIE YOU DIRTY F"N WEED ...... DIE

Then I spit near it for emphasis. :laugh:

starry night
07-30-2010, 03:23 PM
What has always worked for me is when spraying, I angrily point my finger at the weeds and say in a loud voice .......

DIE YOU DIRTY F"N WEED ...... DIE

Then I spit near it for emphasis. :laugh:

This begs the question: Do you mix anything with your spit?

Kiril
07-30-2010, 03:30 PM
This begs the question: Do you mix anything with your spit?

If I can muster it, I do a mini-puke in my mouth before spitting. From what I have observed, I get better control of the weeds doing this as opposed to just plan spitting in the general direction of the weed. Also, the finger pointing must be forceful .... you want to make sure the weed knows you mean business. :laugh:

cgaengineer
07-30-2010, 05:42 PM
I use gasoline as a carrier for my roundup. :-)
Posted via Mobile Device

starry night
07-30-2010, 05:50 PM
I use gasoline as a carrier for my roundup. :-)
Posted via Mobile Device

How's your truck run on that? Good mileage or more power?

cgaengineer
07-30-2010, 05:52 PM
How's your truck run on that? Good mileage or more power?

I was going to mention that its useful when I need to refill my equipment...I only need to carry one chemical for everything.
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