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TWerner
05-13-2011, 10:09 PM
Well said Gordon.
I only remember that somewhere in these 90 pages, somebody had a right side drive fail, but I am not sure who it was. So apologies if Sam and I thought that was Eric. He may not even have bought one.

I think you and GXi and the Beast will do quite well in the long run.
It looks like a well thought out machine, and you seem truly professional.
Hope your weekend is great,
Todd

MJB
05-13-2011, 10:20 PM
Why is it so many on Lawnsite want to bash the new mowers or mower companies before all the facts are in? Why do you guys half to jump on any comment about a problem, like I knew it was junk. Regardless of who sells it let it prove to be what it will prove to be. Sometimes it sounds like a bunch of kids ganging up on the new kid trying to scare him off. Just my opinion take it with a grain of salt.

Patriot Services
05-13-2011, 10:38 PM
Corporate Kool-Aid drinking is a tough habit to break. Its like being an over the top sports fan. People are always threatened by change.
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TWerner
05-14-2011, 10:03 AM
Corporate Kool-Aid drinking is a tough habit to break. Its like being an over the top sports fan. People are always threatened by change.
Posted via Mobile Device

I'm all for change and progress :) I'm also for some semblence of objectivity and the Boston Bruins since my son is signed up for Timmy's Goalie Camp this summer. Tampa _.. :hammerhead: <- Bruins :clapping:

TWerner
05-14-2011, 10:09 AM
You were right, Gordon, Erik wasn't the one with the R side problem. That was Welldone. Sorry Eriik.
Todd

Patriot Services
05-15-2011, 08:32 AM
I'm all for change and progress :) I'm also for some semblence of objectivity and the Boston Bruins since my son is signed up for Timmy's Goalie Camp this summer. Tampa _.. :hammerhead: <- Bruins :clapping:

Crow omelet for breakfast. A fresh diaper, dry crying towel and you will be set for game #2.
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TWerner
05-15-2011, 11:27 AM
Crow omelet for breakfast. A fresh diaper, dry crying towel and you will be set for game #2.
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:dizzy:

....... :cry:

..................:wall


OK, all better now and ready for game two :cool2: :drinkup:

(I'm actually a Devils fan. Grew up in NJ, so this is the first time in a decade I'm not sleep deprived during the playoffs. Rooting for Boston because my son will get to work with Timmy this summer.)

XLS
05-15-2011, 06:24 PM
It has been a long while and HD has not called me back its all a HD problem so again i request a talk with mr jackson. Can i demo a 54'' walkbehind /sulky unit on my jobs or not . I would like to and i need to ,to be fair in the current situation . I am looking to buy one but i was told NO by the HD . Can i get a demo or not Thanks .

for the record Mr Jackson said it was a battery problem only and it was being fixed .... if it was our unit we would have had a battery and 15 minutes of down time we would have been good to go . I have not seen more to post but would like to see more.
I will sign a waiver of possession, give a copy of my Drivers license a phone number, pick it up and return it if i can get the demo .

samendolaro
05-16-2011, 12:07 AM
Can i demo a 54'' walkbehind /sulky unit on my jobs or not . I would like to and i need to ,to be fair in the current situation . I am looking to buy one but i was told NO by the HD . Can i get a demo or not Thanks .



In my experiences at HD, they aren't into demo's beyond the store property.

Why even ask ? Just order one and use it . If you don't like it then bring it back within 30 days. Its got free shipping.

Mark Oomkes
05-16-2011, 10:46 AM
Mark,
Did they tell you that?
Just curious.
Todd

No, previous experiences with my BFF's Mike and Chaz.

samendolaro
05-17-2011, 04:30 PM
So Gordon what kind of Memorial day rebate specials is GXI running..

Buy a beast mower and get a free Mulching kit when available ? :)

samendolaro
05-19-2011, 02:04 PM
Gordon,

What is the foreword speed of the 54" turf beast ? Is the drive system the same as that on the Z beast ?

Richard Martin
05-19-2011, 05:24 PM
Yeah! We just set another record first quarter (Jan-Mar) trade imbalance with China. A mere $60.195 billion. We need to buy more Chinese garbage. Who knows? Maybe one day soon we'll all be forced to speak Mandarin.

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html

Ridin' Green
05-19-2011, 05:31 PM
Yeah! We just set another record first quarter (Jan-Mar) trade imbalance with China. A mere $60.195 billion. We need to buy more Chinese garbage. Who knows? Maybe one day soon we'll all be forced to speak Mandarin.

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html

And that in a nutshell is the reason I am against these mowers.:usflag:

Mikegyver
05-19-2011, 06:00 PM
I bough a reconditioned echo hedger there for 200 bucks today..not everything there is bad....
mike

TWerner
05-19-2011, 06:09 PM
While learning to speak Chinese might be a good idea, labor costs in China are rising at a phenomenal rate. That isn't the case in the US, but our productivity per capita is increasing. Their currency is also going up.

Combine the above with higher shipping costs and imports from China will lose a large percentage of their cost advantage for the US over the next few years. They won't be able to sell Junk.

The Beast and similar ventures will provide incentive to lower costs, and many brands will do that by improving manufacturing efficiency. That's good for you guys. You'll find home grown, high quality, and competetive prices far more easily in a few years because of the Beast and others similar imports.

samendolaro
05-20-2011, 09:39 AM
Not while we have these Unions in place. Guaranteed salaries and guaranteed increases and guaranteed jobs makes it impossible for American corporations to compete. We really have no one to blame but ourselves.

Take a look at the mower industry and some of the manufacturers that have 3 or 4 model lines. It costs a ton of money to support multiple product lines and multiple sizes within those lines. This increases the price overall of each line and helps them justify/differentiate the price of their top of the line products. If things get tight the number of product lines will diminish . In many cases there isn't much more manufacturing costs involved in the top of the line vs bottom of the line but then that's where marketing comes in . If it costs more it must be better, especially if it is being compared to other models from the same company. They have us prewired like this..

TWerner
05-20-2011, 10:43 AM
I'm not a fan of Unions Sam, but they aren't the reason for the wage disparity between the US and China.

As to multiple lines increasing prices, I agree, but only partly. There are differences between the various lines, and if having multiple lines lets the companies sell more volume, then it actually may bring costs down. As you say, the mfg process uses very similar tools, skills, and materials.

On our being conditioned to think if it costs more, it's better, there are countless marketing books on that topic and I've read several of them. It's not always true, and clearly the higher end lines in the zero turn industry are heavier duty machines with tougher parts.

I've read that labor costs in China make up, on average, 3.5% of the finished product's cost, versus 4% for the rest of the Asian countries on average. I'm sure it's higher for a zero turn mower, but it's not 50%. Let's say the cost in the US is 15% of the mower's retail price. If you figure in maybe a 1% import cost and a .5% tarif, which you have to admit are far too low, then China's labor cost would be 5% versus 15%for the US. So why is the Beast half the cost of most commercial mowers? Do you think they pay half as much for the same hydro pumps and wheel motors. Half as much for steel? Do you think the HomeDepot will make no profit on the Beast, but lots of profit on the Toro and Ariens mowers they sell? That'd be an odd incentive to take on the Beast as a product.

samendolaro
05-20-2011, 11:46 AM
No HD is most likely making the same margin off of anything they sell. The difference is in the margins that the company has. Do I really think a Mower (any mower) is worth $10k ? No not really.

The Motors and Hydros are the bulk of the cost and the costs of these are almost fixed.

The remaining costs is the deck and other misc parts. There is nothing ultra special about the Deck and frame, it is Steel, steel plate is about $600 a ton . Most of the initial cost of the steel deck is in the design. Once the initial fabrication is complete the costs vary based upon quantity ordered. All the parts are computer programs in a machine that cut and bend . Only the welds "MAY" be done by hand .

The parts are made the same wherever you go , the steel is sent through a machine which does the machining and bending .

Since GXI owns the factory and fabrication equipment in china then they have someone in their factory push a button on the same fabrication equipment that would have been used here. There is a big cost savings in fabricating in china simply because they can ship finished parts vs Steel plate. Like any freight you are paying for the weight. A lot of that steel plate will be waste after it is cut and it is cheaper to have the waste stay in china then to ship it here and have to factor into the cost of the finished product.

Most of the US Mowers are made with steel from China anyway. The only difference is that someone pushes a button here.

The cost savings GXI is getting is from fabricating their own parts in china is in Cost of Labor, Cost of Steel (without a middle man), Cost of shipping (finished parts vs raw plate).

If a mower manufacturer is outsourcing their fabrication of parts you can tack on another 20% to 30% to the cost of those parts.

samendolaro
05-26-2011, 02:16 PM
Looks like I am going to end up going with the Snapper pro S50X or S75X. The 75 is A bit unconventional looking but it has a nice small footprint even with the 52" deck. It has a $1000 instant rebate on it until the end of June which makes it priced about the cost of the 50x. I can put a hitch & lights on the 50 which is why I am considering it . They both have mulch kits...:)

I haven't ruled out the beast 100% yet but it is taking on more and more of a fallback role at this time. The accessories are two slow to materialize. (if there are more then the mulch kit), the two a week videos never materialized (not overall a deciding factor) and I have concerns over the amount of broken and thrown drive belts being reported.

The belt issue is what is driving me away at this point. I don't know the actual # of issues with belts other then those reported on the HD site (which may not all be legit) but the overall #'s seem to high to be a coincidence . Hopefully it is something that can be rectified easily. Its the only thing stopping me from purchasing at this time.

Thanks

TWerner
05-26-2011, 02:30 PM
Hey Sam,
I like the SnapperPro for value too. Even got accused of plugging for them at one point on one of these Beast threads. I'll still watch the beast too, and
I'm going to look at the S75x. Curious about the design.
Todd

samendolaro
05-26-2011, 02:39 PM
The S75 is basically the Ferris evolution without the suspension system. the 22hp version is the price of the 62" beast after the rebate and the 27hp one with the FX motor is 8 bills more. The Beast is a much better value (apart from my concerns) . I have 30 days to consider the rebate so I'm not in too much of a hurry. Besides I have my brother mowing my lawn 1.5 with a push mower.. I'm not complaining, that's the price for free rent... :)

Later
Scott (yea I let you call me sam long enough... :) )

Patriot Services
05-26-2011, 02:46 PM
:dizzy:

....... :cry:

..................:wall


OK, all better now and ready for game two :cool2: :drinkup:

(I'm actually a Devils fan. Grew up in NJ, so this is the first time in a decade I'm not sleep deprived during the playoffs. Rooting for Boston because my son will get to work with Timmy this summer.)

Friday night! Bruins vs Bolts, game 7. Best series I've watched in years.
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TWerner
05-26-2011, 03:34 PM
Friday night! Bruins vs Bolts, game 7. Best series I've watched in years.
Posted via Mobile Device
Agreed, good series, except for the Bruins losing a 3 goal lead in 4 ... that hurt. Then again, I thought the Bruins looked slow and outplayed in that first period of 4, even though they came out up by 3. Lucky bounces on two of those goals, one off a skate, one off the knee stack for a 5 hole I think.

This would give me an ulcer if it were my Devils. Feeling it even with my second choice team. Lets just hope the long series doesn't hurt the team that moves on. No injuries on either side in 7 would be good.


Scott,
Sorry, just went from the screen name.
Regards,
Todd

GMLC
05-26-2011, 03:42 PM
Scott

As much as I wanted you to buy the other mower from the chinese flea market so I could tell you I told you so, I'm very happy you decided on a snapper pro. Those are excellent mowers and you will probably never have to buy another mower in your life time. Snapper Pro's are selling like hot cakes up here and I see more and more on trailers everyday. I would like to demo one myself and will sometime soon!

Adam
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TWerner
05-26-2011, 03:51 PM
Snapper is selling here too. Last week a trailer went by while I was in the McDonalds drive through with a new looking SnapperPro and a Hustler. Yesterday when I drove by Duke's campus, there were two guys cutting a field on east campus. They were going one after the other, which I'd never seen before, maybe 15 feet between. The guy on the outside front was on a JD and the guy in back was on a SnapperPro.

Would have loved to talk to either of those two LCO's, but no opportunity.

GMLC
05-26-2011, 04:02 PM
I really want to demo the s75. Curious how it does on hills. Dealers can't keep snapper pro in stock and you have to order them right now here. True commercial mower at a good price!
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samendolaro
05-26-2011, 04:23 PM
All that weight on the rear of the mower it should hold pretty well . Although my fear would be flipping the thing or doing the perpetual wheele.

Interesting that they only sell it in a 52" flavor but it most likely keep the cost low. I wouldn't have considered it if it wasn't for the 1k off. Used ones are selling for the new price on ebay.

Greg78
05-26-2011, 07:36 PM
I've seen a lot of Snapper Pros lately. I was doing a home in Ave Maria http://www.avemaria.com/Default.aspx a very large community (11,000 homes on 5,000 acres when completed, looks to be about 60% done) and the company doing all the common areas had 5 or 6 Snapper Pro zero turns. Looked like they were leaving a nice cut.

Snapper Jack
05-26-2011, 08:25 PM
I've seen a lot of Snapper Pros lately. I was doing a home in Ave Maria http://www.avemaria.com/Default.aspx a very large community (11,000 homes on 5,000 acres when completed, looks to be about 60% done) and the company doing all the common areas had 5 or 6 Snapper Pro zero turns. Looked like they were leaving a nice cut.
I just bought an older model Snapper Pro 36" and the cut is really nice and striping is from good to excellent depending how the deck is set up.

IS500Z
05-26-2011, 10:11 PM
Looks like I am going to end up going with the Snapper pro S50X or S75X. The 75 is A bit unconventional looking but it has a nice small footprint even with the 52" deck. It has a $1000 instant rebate on it until the end of June which makes it priced about the cost of the 50x. I can put a hitch & lights on the 50 which is why I am considering it . They both have mulch kits...:)

I haven't ruled out the beast 100% yet but it is taking on more and more of a fallback role at this time. The accessories are two slow to materialize. (if there are more then the mulch kit), the two a week videos never materialized (not overall a deciding factor) and I have concerns over the amount of broken and thrown drive belts being reported.

The belt issue is what is driving me away at this point. I don't know the actual # of issues with belts other then those reported on the HD site (which may not all be legit) but the overall #'s seem to high to be a coincidence . Hopefully it is something that can be rectified easily. Its the only thing stopping me from purchasing at this time.

Thanks

So after numerous posts defending and extolling the supposed virtues of this re-badged generic Chinese mower you are now concerned over reported quality issues and the lack of follow though from the re-shipping company? Not meaning to be rude, but I believe that a lot of that information was already available earlier when you were determined to purchase it.

As noted above the Snapper Pro model you are talking about is a stripped down Ferris Evolution (with a single deck/engine option and sans suspension). I have looked at the Evolution several times as a potential replacement for my current Ferris ZTR. Like you I also like its small footprint, but combined with a high center of gravity I cannot but think it would have issues on hills. Not a major concern for me as my lawn is largely flat, but a concern none the less. If you do get to run a demo, or even purchase one, I would be interested in your impressions of the unit particularly its stability on hills. My dealer did note that they recommend backing the unit on and off a trailer as is also shown in Ferris' own video.

Richard Martin
05-27-2011, 07:16 AM
Do you think they pay half as much for the same hydro pumps and wheel motors. Half as much for steel?

They aren't using the same pumps and motors. They're using some kind of bizzaro world hydro system with a final drive belt on each wheel. There's video of the system along with how to adjust it (dangerous) somewhere.

Their finished steel probably is half as much since it is entirely produced and finished (except for paint) in China. They may even be painting them there, I don't know.

samendolaro
05-27-2011, 09:11 AM
I was also the one who was "On the GXI payroll"

To be fair , The S50 and S75are both 10ga decks . The S75X has less reviews then the Beast does . There are a couple snapper dealers (who don't carry the pro) who recommended that I do not purchase a snapper pro. Here is the exact quote...


"The equipment is just as good as the others in the same price range,
that being said... the problem lies in support after the sale. HORRIBLE
is an understatement. Restructure of the company from Ga. to New York,
loss of salesmen, no parts availability, loss of orders, excessive
shipping costs, incorrect part numbers for look up, no service support,
technical issues going unsolved, shall I go on? It is a mess! The price
is good and the the rebate is being used to boost sales due to the loss
of customers from poor business practices, BEWARE..... Snapper of today
is NOT the snapper we grew up with!"

The S50X has a great value , It only comes in a 36 & 48" . But they sell for the price of the 54" beast. The S75 Only in a 52 and with the rebate can be had for the price of the 62" beast. When you go to the S175 the prices are getting a bit high.


The difference between the lines right now are accessories . The Value is still on the side of the beast but not having grass-catchers or mulching blades after almost a year is a problem. The Belt issues with the Beast are a big concern. It needs to be addressed but that being said, If the snapper didn't offer an equivalent value the beast would still be #1 on the list even with the belt issues.

The S75 footprint is what is drawing me in. Wish they went the extra mile and allowed you to control it as a walk behind.

I am still doing what research I can them , just very little information on them

So after numerous posts defending and extolling the supposed virtues of this re-badged generic Chinese mower you are now concerned over reported quality issues and the lack of follow though from the re-shipping company? Not meaning to be rude, but I believe that a lot of that information was already available earlier when you were determined to purchase it.

GMLC
05-27-2011, 10:00 AM
I can't speak for other areas of the country but my dealer carries snapper pro and ferris as both are owned by briggs and stratton. He says the oposite and has nothing bad to say. Snapper Pro from what I was told comes off the same assembly line as ferris and almost all parts are common between the two. Snapper pro is not some jonny come latley company and I find it hard to believe ferris's parts system is not in place for snapper pro. But I could be wrong.
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IS500Z
05-27-2011, 10:08 AM
A number of members on this site use Snapper Pro machines and they seem to have generally good reviews. I would put more weight on that than some quote from a dealer that does not even sell them.

Sam/Scott

If you ever buy anything let us know what you decide on. At this point the endless debate has become 'noise in the ether'.

samendolaro
05-27-2011, 01:08 PM
Interestingly I called another "Snapper Pro" dealer who wouldn't even order me a S75x because he doesn't want to fix them. Told me the only reason they were giving $1k off was to offload them because no one wants them. He said their was too many moving parts.He doesn't believe they will be offering them next year.


one down...

TWerner
05-28-2011, 01:10 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHUtvARPF9s
This guys is having fun on the evolution.

Cool machine, but I wouldn't buy one without a ROPS. Sort of a motorcycle position instead of a chair, which makes sense from a back comfort point of view. I haven't heard anything bad about SnapperPro support. I have noticed that snapper and snapperPro are sold by different dealers. Seemed odd to me. Wonder if that's to distinguish SP from the residential line.

flatlander42
05-28-2011, 01:30 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHUtvARPF9s
This guys is having fun on the evolution.

Cool machine, but I wouldn't buy one without a ROPS. Sort of a motorcycle position instead of a chair, which makes sense from a back comfort point of view. I haven't heard anything bad about SnapperPro support. I have noticed that snapper and snapperPro are sold by different dealers. Seemed odd to me. Wonder if that's to distinguish SP from the residential line.

Wouldn't need a ROPS when you can simply step off of the back. Your not tied in like on a "normal" ztr.

nepatsfan
06-12-2011, 09:37 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHUtvARPF9s
This guys is having fun on the evolution.

Cool machine, but I wouldn't buy one without a ROPS. Sort of a motorcycle position instead of a chair, which makes sense from a back comfort point of view. I haven't heard anything bad about SnapperPro support. I have noticed that snapper and snapperPro are sold by different dealers. Seemed odd to me. Wonder if that's to distinguish SP from the residential line.

Most importantly though...Does it have a fuel guage?

GMLC
06-12-2011, 12:35 PM
LOL...fuel gauge. Ask me any time during the day how much fuel is in my mower and I bet I can tell you almost exactly. Guess you get a feel for how much time you can get out of so much fuel.
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samendolaro
06-12-2011, 12:36 PM
Most importantly though...Does it have a fuel guage?


:)

Actually it does not..

nepatsfan
06-12-2011, 02:04 PM
:)

Actually it does not..

For some people, I hear that is a deal breaker:dizzy:

samendolaro
06-12-2011, 02:22 PM
For some people, I hear that is a deal breaker:dizzy:

Not sure I understand the issue.. You open the cap and look inside. If you can't see, you light a match, drop it and see where it goes out... :angry:
Simple...

nepatsfan
06-12-2011, 02:26 PM
Not sure I understand the issue.. You open the cap and look inside. If you can't see, you light a match, drop it and see where it goes out... :angry:
Simple...

I suppose that is a simple way to do it but instead of lighting the match and dropping it in the tank to see where it goes out when you can't see fuel, you could just add more gas....just a suggestion:rolleyes: