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1966vette
05-08-2010, 11:23 AM
I live in Kokomo, IN & just renovated my 1 ace lawn.
After 6 weeks of tilling, leveling, seeding, rolling & watering the KBG is coming up slowly.
Below is the type of KBG I planted.
9PSOD Premium Sod Blend (3 lb/1000 sq ft) ........................3.95+
25% NuDestiny Kentucky Bluegrass
15% Midnight Kentucky Bluegrass
25% Impact Kentucky Bluegrass
10% Bewitched Kentucky Bluegrass
25% Beyond Kentucky Bluegrass

The KBG blend has started to germinate and the new grass is not coming in a thick as I would like.
I seeded the lawn w/ 1.5# of above seed / 1,000 sq.
Here is my question:
1. What is the spread rate of the above seeds?
Example.
1 blade of KBG grass seed will fill in a 2 sq in area in 6 months.
Thanks!
Andy

EquityGreen
05-08-2010, 11:33 AM
I would have used a 50-50 mix not all KBG some rye would've been good. I use 8-10 lbs/1000 when seeding new lawns. IMO you may not have used enough seed.

SeedPro
05-08-2010, 12:21 PM
I would have used a 50-50 mix not all KBG some rye would've been good. I use 8-10 lbs/1000 when seeding new lawns. IMO you may not have used enough seed.

Agreed. 1.5 lbs per isn't enough.

They call for 2-4 for KBG but I always go heavier than that by half and use 6-8. Seeds cheap relatively speaking.

I have only ever done two 100% KBG lawns, and the rest had at least 30% Perennial Rye. The only difference between the KBG's out there and the Perennial Rye's out there is a different shaped tip....big deal, and of course the Rye's are not rhizonomous like KBG but they blend in beautifully.

I use Lescos Premium Athletic which is 70/30 KBG/Rye and Great Lakes which is 60/40.

EquityGreen
05-08-2010, 12:30 PM
Agreed. 1.5 lbs per isn't enough.

They call for 2-4 for KBG but I always go heavier than that by half and use 6-8. Seeds cheap relatively speaking.

I have only ever done two 100% KBG lawns, and the rest had at least 30% Perennial Rye. The only difference between the KBG's out there and the Perennial Rye's out there is a different shaped tip....big deal, and of course the Rye's are not rhizonomous like KBG but they blend in beautifully.

I use Lescos Premium Athletic which is 70/30 KBG/Rye and Great Lakes which is 60/40.

I use a 38" Lawn Revitalizer, what do you have Seed Pro?

SeedPro
05-08-2010, 12:32 PM
Renovator 20 by Lesco.

EquityGreen
05-08-2010, 12:38 PM
I used two machines the other day, a 20 something bluebird and my revitalizer and we got $2200 done in 4 hours. Not bad eh?

SeedPro
05-08-2010, 01:45 PM
Not at all.

I charge 150-175 per thousand for renovating/machine seeding.

ChiTownAmateur
05-08-2010, 02:26 PM
I live in Kokomo, IN & just renovated my 1 ace lawn.
After 6 weeks of tilling, leveling, seeding, rolling & watering the KBG is coming up slowly.
Below is the type of KBG I planted.
9PSOD Premium Sod Blend (3 lb/1000 sq ft) ........................3.95+
25% NuDestiny Kentucky Bluegrass
15% Midnight Kentucky Bluegrass
25% Impact Kentucky Bluegrass
10% Bewitched Kentucky Bluegrass
25% Beyond Kentucky Bluegrass

The KBG blend has started to germinate and the new grass is not coming in a thick as I would like.
I seeded the lawn w/ 1.5# of above seed / 1,000 sq.
Here is my question:
1. What is the spread rate of the above seeds?
Example.
1 blade of KBG grass seed will fill in a 2 sq in area in 6 months.
Thanks!
Andy

I'm not an expert but can give you an answer easily based upon what you wrote.

Your blend calls for 3lbs/1000sq feet -- that is what you should have put down to establish the new seedbed originally. The fact that you didn't will not hurt you at all.

In a thread below you'll see my comments about my 100% supina bluegrass front, it came in nicely but I am seeding it a 2nd time.

You should seed again at 3lbs/1000sq feet right over what you've got. If you have areas with good growth already, lower the setting over those to 1.5lbs/1000. You don't want TOO MUCH, but that rarily happens unless the application rate is way too high.

Rye and fescues are much heavier seeds, so 6/7/8lbs/1000sq feet is normal for those. Bluegrass seeds are so small that 3lbs has the same (actually more) seeds than 6-7 lbs of rye or fescue.

ChiTownAmateur
05-08-2010, 02:30 PM
I cannot give an answer on how much and fast it spreads. All bluegrasses except the supina spread by way of rhizomes, the underground root spreading. I believe anything baseball size or smaller can fill in within a season...but when establishing a new lawn you don't want big bare patches as weeds can fill in.

Once it gets too hot -- by mid/late June where you are, it's too late to put down the KBG seed because the heat will roast it and it becomes impossible to get the roots established to survive the hot summer.

Get your 2nd app down in the next few weeks and you'll have another 4-6 weeks to finish establishing the 2nd set...the first set will have great rooting by then and should carry the new ones imo

i'm in your boat my man and completely understand the strange feeling of waiting for that unbelivably slow KBG to come up. But it will be worth it because the ryes and fescues are not necessary or really wanted, they just make establishment easier. You'll have a nicer lawn than your neighbors if you finish the job.

1966vette
05-08-2010, 03:20 PM
I understand everyone has their own personal preference of seed mfg & seed blend or mix to use.

I want a 100% blue grass lawn.
Thus, I chose a high quality KBG blend and not a mixture which contained of rye.

I over seeded with 1.5# of KBG & used 2.5# - 3# of KBG on bear areas. The blend contains 5 different types of KBG seeds with slightly different germinating rates. Iím just starting to see germination now. Maybe, more coverage will apply when all 5 types of KBG seed has germinated. Getting an acre of KBG established w/ 3 hoses is not an easy accomplishment. Thus, Iím always praying for rain!

The weeds are starting to take hold in certain areas but I plan to apply weed & feed after the 4th mowing to rid the weeds.

The total bill for the high quality KBG seeds was ~$500 / acre plus another $75 for 100# of high quality starter fertilizer and $225 for 300í of high quality hoses and the best sprinklers.

I understand that I can apply more KBG seed now but I was planning on plugging and applying additional KBG seed to only the thin and bare areas in the fall. Thus, the original question of defining KBG spreading capabilities. If it spreads very well, I will only have to apply KBG seed in a few areas.

What a fight!
Andy

TJ LAWN
05-08-2010, 04:58 PM
I understand everyone has their own personal preference of seed mfg & seed blend or mix to use.

I want a 100% blue grass lawn.
Thus, I chose a high quality KBG blend and not a mixture which contained of rye.

I over seeded with 1.5# of KBG & used 2.5# - 3# of KBG on bear areas. The blend contains 5 different types of KBG seeds with slightly different germinating rates. Iím just starting to see germination now. Maybe, more coverage will apply when all 5 types of KBG seed has germinated. Getting an acre of KBG established w/ 3 hoses is not an easy accomplishment. Thus, Iím always praying for rain!

The weeds are starting to take hold in certain areas but I plan to apply weed & feed after the 4th mowing to rid the weeds.

The total bill for the high quality KBG seeds was ~$500 / acre plus another $75 for 100# of high quality starter fertilizer and $225 for 300í of high quality hoses and the best sprinklers.

I understand that I can apply more KBG seed now but I was planning on plugging and applying additional KBG seed to only the thin and bare areas in the fall. Thus, the original question of defining KBG spreading capabilities. If it spreads very well, I will only have to apply KBG seed in a few areas.

What a fight!
Andy


I understand you want a 100% KBG Lawn...But, The KGB germinates so slow you are gonna have a ton of weeds by the time you have a lawn..That is why you mix with a Quality Rye seed. That is compatable in color and leaf texture to the KGB...The best, nicest lawns such as Pro baseball fields are Never 100% of anything...In the North they are Rye/Bluegrass mix...

bigslick7878
05-08-2010, 06:17 PM
I understand you want a 100% KBG Lawn...But, The KGB germinates so slow you are gonna have a ton of weeds by the time you have a lawn..That is why you mix with a Quality Rye seed. That is compatable in color and leaf texture to the KGB...The best, nicest lawns such as Pro baseball fields are Never 100% of anything...In the North they are Rye/Bluegrass mix...

Exactly.

It takes TIME for the KGB to get established THEN once you have vigorous growth it will spread and fill in any areas over time and regenerate.

If you wait you will have weeds in the areas that are bare, you need to seed it again. No seed will come in perfect the first time without needed to go over it again.

And 1.5/1000 is way too little if you were starting from scratch.

1966vette
05-08-2010, 06:56 PM
What is the recommended get well plan for my 1 acre yard taking into consideration I originally wanted a 100% KBG lawn w/o weeds?

1. Over seed the bare & weed area w/ only KBG & water for another 4 weeks & then apply liquid apply weed and feed after the 4th mowing?

2. Over seed the bare & weed area w/ only KBG & RYE mix & water for another 2 weeks & then apply liquid apply weed and feed after mowing the new lawn 4 times?

3. Implement another approach unknown to me that includes dealing w/ the weeds sooner & getting the grass to fill in ASAP?

What a nightmare!
Thanks!
Andy

TJ LAWN
05-08-2010, 08:06 PM
Spot spray the weeds as they come....Overseed bare areas with a Rye/KBG mix..Their are plenty of Rye blends that go well with KBG....In my opinion i would throw down a 19-19-19 to give the seed a jump start....Water-water- water....You will see the rye in about a week...If i may ask..Why do you want a 100% KGB lawn...

TJ LAWN
05-08-2010, 08:13 PM
Also...Seedsuperstore.com has some good info on all kinds of seed...Such as ratings from the ntep and disease tendency for many seeds...I would check it out....Also seedland has some info....

RigglePLC
05-08-2010, 09:51 PM
Vette,
you are on the right track--if you want a top-quality Kentucky bluegrass lawn. You used a really good seed blend. I suspect you must be an engineer. You are trying to do it right the first time. Bluegrasss is soo slow. Control the pucker. You just have to be patient. Don't add rye if you don't want it. The bluegrass will spread, and everything will go faster when the temps hit about 80. In the mean time add a good turf fertilizer like 24-0-11 about once a month. Apply plenty of water (at least every day). Be ready to spray the weeds after two mowings--say by the fourth of July, and again in late summer. Try to get your water bill up to about $200 a month. This is a good time to invest in a couple of those battery-operated sprinkler timers--turns the water on and off everyday.
If there are problems--you can always go with sod in the fall.

RodneyK
05-08-2010, 10:28 PM
I have seeded a 13,000 square foot area and another that is about 4,000 with KBG only blends on my property. There is nothing like a KBG only lawn.

So, I have gone through what you are going through. Here is the best two pieces of advice I received when I went through the process.

1) Do not worry about weeds mixed in with the turf! You can so easily take them out later on down the road. I mowed only weeds while the turf knitted in for quite some time. No biggie and I would not be in a hurry to spray the weeds.

2) Put down a quality starter fert every three weeks. This was the golden ticket for me. My first area did not really get going until I did this. On the 4,000 area I seeded around 8/30/09 and it is just now starting to look like something. It has had two or three apps of starter this spring already. One more to follow in about a week and then I will probably back off. It will be another two months before it looks great and the weeds are gone. Be patient! By the way I just mowed that area for the first time last week and cut mostly weeds with the mower set pretty low since the turf is still knitting.

If you have significant bare areas you should probably reseed those, use the same blend of KBG, why incorporate anything else at this point? If you did reseed with another blend with rye you just defeated your whole mission!

Golf courses use KBG only blends all the time.

I did have the benefit of irrigation. Couldn't imagine doing an acre with hoses. RigglePLC is right keep that water flowing!

How about some picts?!

quackgrass
05-09-2010, 02:59 AM
Riggle makes some good points, the heat will speed things up considerably.

The amount of materials you used would have made for a good start on a plot one fourth that size. Straight KBG is no problem, but if you want a high quality acre of turfgrass - its going to take a lot more budget than what you've been spending. Frankly I think its unwise to try and maintain that much turf, even if you had automated irrigation. Grass and turf are two different things, turf is the result of overpopulating and stunting the grass plant through higher fertility, irrigation and cutting. $$$

Depending on your property, I would suggest reducing 3/4th's of the turf area and letting it be grass. Luckily you already have lower growing grass planted. If you focused all your effort on about 15,000 sq/ft it would look much better and would also have a nice border or picture frame around it.

The key is fertility and hydration. Water and plant available nutrients are the bulk matter that makes up a thick turf. Heat, moisture and sun will make wonders out of grass if it can draw in nutrients and water, the only limiting factor is the immature root system and poor nutrient uptake.

Think of a grass blade as a little solar panel getting its energy from the sun. The soil is like a battery holding a nutrient charge and the root system is your battery cable that connects the two. If the solar panel is small and the battery charge low or weakly connected its not going to grow very quick.

Grass will absorb nutrients through its blade. A soluble liquid nitrogen if applied to the dry blade will be like a jump start that bypasses the immature root system. Liquid fertilize every 3 weeks with a 1/2 lb of nitrogen. Start mowing frequently to increase lateral growth. Mow twice weekly at 2" with a sharp blade even if its only hitting 10% of the tops. Each cut will encourage a new shoot for rapid grow in.

To build that soil charge you want to check the PH and make sure its within a point of neutral. Adding a 1/8th inch of organic matter after an aeration and reseed would be great, but an acre is a massive task given you don't have a topdresser.

An additional option is to purchase 30 to 45 bags of an organic fertilizer that still contains microbes. The microbes are bacteria and Fungi that process the organic matter and make it root available. This in turn encourages root growth which supports more foliage. Good organic fertilizers have most of the 13 soil nutrients a plant needs. Typical nitrogen solutions don't.

Mulch your clippings so that you fuel a natural nutrient cycle which builds the microbe population and returns all the elements.

After all your potential seeds have established its time to stretch those roots deeper into the soil. Water much less frequently but deeper so that root growth is optimized farther from the surface.

That acre is going to own your free time and wallet if you don't get the "turf" portion shrunk down to a manageable size. Get the outer grass established and then let it grow higher and go dormant in the summer. The KGB you have already started would make a good "rough", just make sure it gets a deep watering every month after it matures so it doesn't die off.

RodneyK
05-09-2010, 09:02 AM
Quackgrass brings up an excellent point. Even if you were to establish the entire acre and get it looking good maintaining it is a whole other story. I have about an acre of KBG and I spend thousands each year keeping it fertilized, watered, mowed, etc. as well as countless hours.

Organic fert is also a great point/idea.

1966vette
05-09-2010, 09:53 AM
Spot spray the weeds as they come....Overseed bare areas with a Rye/KBG mix..Their are plenty of Rye blends that go well with KBG....In my opinion i would throw down a 19-19-19 to give the seed a jump start....Water-water- water....You will see the rye in about a week...If i may ask..Why do you want a 100% KGB lawn...

I started reading about new versions of premium grass seed and the results it provided on this and other lawn web sites. Many seed manufactures offer blends of KBG for people that are willing to spend some extra time and money on their lawn. If I mow it, I want it to look the best it can.

1966vette
05-09-2010, 09:58 AM
Yes, I am an engineer! How can you tell? Because I requested the KBG spread rate? Engineers are always seeking data to make decisions!
Thanks for helping!

1966vette
05-09-2010, 11:02 AM
Thanks for your advice! Here are my comments:

The amount of materials you used would have made for a good start on a plot one fourth that size.

I agree, but this is the amount that Cisco the seed mfg recommended. I applied 125# of KBG on an acre of grass which included 75% over seeding and 25 new lawn. Maybe Cisco the supplier recommendation is for grass not turf.

Straight KBG is no problem, but if you want a high quality acre of turfgrass - its going to take a lot more budget than what you've been spending.

Please define the recommended amount of time required and cost for the acre of turf.
There are the tools I currently have available:
1. Wheel Horse ZTR w/ 16 HP Onan with the following pull behind accessories: 12 Volt 30 gal liquid sprayer, 100# lawn spreader, good size lawn cart, spike aerator, grass sweeper

2. Toro recycler mower, 5 HP Troy Built Tiller, 2 HP edger

3. Scott drop spreader, wheel borrow & many rakes and shovels

4. 400í hose and 7 sprinklers

The key is fertility and hydration.

I already used gradual Cisco starter fertilizer. However, I have a 30 gal sprayer & have no problem of applying liquid fertilizer or weed & feed.

Depending on your property, I would suggest reducing 3/4th's of the turf area and letting it be grass.

Iím determined to try for the acre but understand I will most likely be forced to reduce the size of turf to only the front and side yards.

To build that soil charge you want to check the PH and make sure its within a point of neutral. Adding a 1/8th inch of organic matter after an aeration and reseed would be great, but an acre is a massive task given you don't have a topdresser.

I measured the soil PH and it is in the range of neutral. I maybe able to purchase a dump truck of good top soil, lightly till the bare areas and over seed in the fall.

That acre is going to own your free time and wallet if you don't get the "turf" portion shrunk down to a manageable size. Get the outer grass established and then let it grow higher and go dormant in the summer. The KGB you have already started would make a good "rough", just make sure it gets a deep watering every month after it matures so it doesn't die off.

Hey, youíre starting to scare me!
My lawn will consume all my time & money! How bad can it get? I love living in the USA and taking care of my lawn!

Thanks to everyone for all your help!
Stay in the fight & pray for rain!
Andy

RigglePLC
05-09-2010, 12:03 PM
Your plan should work fine, Andy. I know the signs, LOL. My daughter is an engineer. I would go with frequent applications of a granular turf fertilizer high in controlled release nitrogen, say 25-0-5 or similar, with 30, better yet, 50 percent of nitrogen in the slow-release form. Reduce the fert once grass is thick or if you cannot keep up with the mowing. Irrigation will be problematical once dry spells set in--but you know that.

lukemelo216
05-09-2010, 11:05 PM
what i have tried on a few lawns is mixing in about 30% transit rye......it germinates really quick and then the kbg fills in and takes it over. transit rye is an annual so its gone in a year (90%) the remaining stuff is gone the next year.

RigglePLC
05-10-2010, 08:45 PM
That is an idea, Mr Vette. However see the problems Buysell is having trying to identify and get rid of his annual ryegrass.
http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=315589