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View Full Version : how do you handle the 1141/1156 base?


David Gretzmier
05-10-2010, 12:06 PM
I seem to be getting more and more jobs that already have some lighting but want it to look better or right. The fixtures I'd like to talk about tend to be the nightscaping footliters or illuminators, tulip deliters, all of which use the bayonet base 1141's or 1156's. Although I'd like the deliter to be more "out" than "down", I really have no problems with these fixtures performance other than the bulb/base. even long life 13.8 volt versions of those bulbs seem to need replacement once, twice, sometimes 3x per year on those "on all night long" clients.

I have changed out to bi-pin sockets on illuminators and footliters, which requires you to do some drilling with a step bit. time consuming, probably 15 minutes per fixture, but solves the problem and lets you use g6 bi pins for the rest of the life of the fixture.

I have tried the adapter sockets, which goes in like a bulb and adapts it to a g4 or g6 bi-pin. many times these exceed the cost of a socket, but are quick to do, but most are rated only for 20 watts. I use 35 watts in paths probably 1/3 of the time. this would allow you to use bi-pins in the future, but you will still have the maintenance of replacing some of those plastic bayonet bases over the years that the adapter goes in .

There are the halogen bulbs with the bayonet base, but those bulbs tend to exceed the cost of either a socket replacement or an adapter, and are the fastest solution, but I usually only find them in 20 watts, and that leaves you with a much higher residual cost every year on your end with yearly bulb replacements.

I looked at several LED bayonet base bulbs, most are made for auto's, and I found 2 or 3 that actually publish lumens and color temp, will work for a/c voltage and those bulbs are the most expensive option, fast, and theoretically will not require yearly replacement. I have not tried these.

of course, many folks knee jerk reation is tear it all out and replace it/warranty it with what you sell. I have done that as well, but it feels wrong to do it in many cases when it seems like a quality fixture, it is just a few years old and in perfect shape, it just needs to be wired properly and placed right and have a bulb that lasts a year. I feel better about the tear out thing if the customer is frustrated with the system and says they want something "good" but if the customer likes what they have and wants to just add on, tear out/replace really does not seem like good advice.

what do you guys do ?

emby
05-10-2010, 05:30 PM
David, I always believe that as a business owner you have to ensure that your customers are always happy. If they like the fixtures and want to keep them then I would explain to them that the maintenance on these fixtures will exceed the normal pricing due to the special bulbs required and short life span. Ensure you cover your time and material and look after the customer and make them happy. If that means quartely visits for maintenance then so be it.
Modifying the fixtures with better sockets is sometimes necessary and a good idea but ensure that your costs are covered.
Bottom line is I like what you do because you ensure that your customers are always happy.

Ken

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
05-10-2010, 08:31 PM
GE makes a long life 1156KR (krypton) lamp that I used to use a lot of. They give about 2000 hours as I recall, not bad for a $2 lamp.

ELumin8
05-11-2010, 12:14 PM
A phone call to the manufacturer if you are about to modify the fixture in any way as it may void the UL/ETL cerfitication as well as the manufacturers warranty/liability.

David Gretzmier
05-11-2010, 10:39 PM
when you google 1156 warm white led you will get several websites selling many different versions, and one site worth mentioning review wise. it was an RV site and he reviewed several of the newer, warm white single contact bayonet base bulbs more geared toward the RV market rather than for brake lights. one gentleman tested 3 bulbs a few months back, and he was duly impressed with the color and brightness. I am surprised that there are warm white SCB bulbs out there with 250-300 lumen brightness. he basically said the 250 lumen version had a color and brightness similar to an 1156 bulb he pulled out, and the 300 lumen version would replace a fixture he had in his RV that had 2 1156 bulbs. one of those 2 was rated for both DC and AC with a range of 8v to 30v.

sorry, I do not know how to post links. but I found it in less than 5 minutes of clicking.

I have no experience with these bulbs, but I am going to try a couple on a pathlight compare them to 20 watt halogen and see how much light comes out. if they look ok colorwise and brightness wise, I may leave them in a year and see how they do at no additional cost to the customer. I am also going to try one with all the LED's facing out projector style on a tulip light and see how the color and light out the front goes.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
05-11-2010, 10:51 PM
David, I can guarantee you that those lamps are not suitable for our applications. 1: They are not for humid/moist environments. 2: They post no spectral or photometric data. 3: They post no info on the junction temps and have no integrated heat sinks. So while they may make wild claims about lumen output, how are they dealing with the heat issues?

David Gretzmier
05-12-2010, 12:31 AM
I am not claiming they do anything. I am saying a guy on another board tried them, and he liked the color and brightness. but one light did post a temperature/lumen rating at 25C?, and all were rated by color temp from 2700k to 3100k. I will try them like I have tried a hundred other LED's and let you guys know how they look and how they last. I'll be honest.

And yes, I think all LED's should publish all the data, temps, color, junction temp, photometrics, heatsink volume and material, etc, but it is funny, how many of us have required the same thing of halogen bulbs? xenon/halogen blends? does anyone even know a junction temp of a halogen 20 watt bulb? or lumen maintenance?

there are several SCB LED bulbs that are sold that look like a chunk of aluminum with sealed 1/2 watt or 1 watt led's sealed to it. I am just trying things out.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
05-12-2010, 01:26 AM
And yes, I think all LED's should publish all the data, temps, color, junction temp, photometrics, heatsink volume and material, etc, but it is funny, how many of us have required the same thing of halogen bulbs? xenon/halogen blends? does anyone even know a junction temp of a halogen 20 watt bulb? or lumen maintenance?


There are five critical metrics associated with LED lighting. Lumens (light output), CCT (color temp), L70 (lamp life as a function of lumen maintenance), Junction Temperature, and CRI (color rendition index) It really is not possible to make a comparison between products, or a decision on the efficacy of any one product without knowing all of this information and understanding how the various metrics correlate. Steps are being taken to standardize the labeling of LED products and I welcome it. Hopefully they will require all manufacturers to publish full and objective specifications.

There is technically no such thing as a junction temperature for an incandescent lamp, as there is no 'junction" to measure. Similarly lumen maintenance is not critical in incandescent lamps as they tend to fail abruptly at the end of their useful life, not fade away over time.

David Gretzmier
05-12-2010, 08:23 PM
and I think you make my point james. How many lumens does a halogen mr16 have, really? it rarely is published. what color temp does a halogen mr16 have? neither is standard or published, as is reflector life or lumen maintenance. and if you think an mr-16 produces the same lumens at 1 year/2400 hours or so as it did at hour one, you are not paying attention. and if you think a 10,000 hour mr16 titan or utra makes even close the same color or lumens as a 3000 hour GE you are mistaken as well.

and you forgot beam angle, which I think is equally important on Mr's for both LED and halogen.

I too would love to have all metrics published, but in the last 15 years, if we never got it for halogen, what makes you think it will happen for LED?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
05-12-2010, 11:11 PM
David, sounds to me like you might benefit from a lamp tech. 101 course somewhere. Are you a member of the AOLP or IESNA? You might want to consider it as both provide members with excellent resources. It really isn't that hard to understand all the technical stuff, and if you are in the lighting field, then most of this stuff should be second nature to you.

and I think you make my point james. How many lumens does a halogen mr16 have, really? Well it all depends on what halogen MR16 lamp you are talking about. Is it a 10W, 20W, 35W, 42W IR, 50W,? Lumens have not typically been used to measure the light output of incandescent sources. FC, Lux, Candela or CBCP are what you normally see when reading lamp tech manuals. You can of course easily calculate for yourself knowing that 1 candela = 12.57 Lumens. :)

it rarely is published. Read your lamp catalogs... better manufacturers will always publish some metric of light production. It is up to you to understand (and covert) those number to what you want to use.

what color temp does a halogen mr16 have? neither is standard or published, Not quite accurate. Most quality Halogen MR16 lamps publish their colour temperatures. GE Constant Color Precise provide a solid 3000K

as is reflector life or lumen maintenance. If you are using a quality Halogen MR16 lamp, it will be a true dichroic reflector (like the GE Constant Color Precise) and thus reflector life will not be an issue. If you choose to use cheapo, aluminized reflector MR16 lamps, (the ones that were never intended for outdoor applications) then all bets are off.

and if you think an mr-16 produces the same lumens at 1 year/2400 hours or so as it did at hour one, you are not paying attention. Oh trust me, I am paying attention... probably more so than most! Again, use a quality, dichroic halogen MR16 lamp and you will not experience much lumen depreciation at all. The lamp will burn out long before significant lumen depreciation affects the output. Not so with cheapo lamps.

and if you think a 10,000 hour mr16 titan or utra makes even close the same color or lumens as a 3000 hour GE you are mistaken as well. I never claimed they did. I have always maintained that the Ushio MR16 product is producing a warmer (closer to 2700K) light than the reference standard GE Constant Color Precise lamp.

and you forgot beam angle, which I think is equally important on Mr's for both LED and halogen. What about beam angle?... it is clearly indicated on every single MR16 lamp I have ever seen, be it halogen or LED. You might have to learn what ESX, BAB, FMW, FRA, FRB, EXN, EXZ etc mean, but those are standarized codes that specifically refer to beam angle. Most LED MR16 lamps make it easier by just stating 15, 30, 45, 60 Degree

I too would love to have all metrics published, but in the last 15 years, if we never got it for halogen, You absolutely did get the metrics published on quality halogen MR16 lamps, you just have to understand what they were publishing! what makes you think it will happen for LED? Oh I am quite certain it is happening for LED. The IES is continuing work on both LM-79 and LM-80 and there is an organization in the USA working on standardized labeling requirements for LED products. (as reported in LD&A just this month)


http://www.techstreet.com/cgi-bin/detail?doc_no=IES|LM_79_08&product_id=1566105

http://www.techstreet.com/standards/IES/LM_80_08?product_id=1587325

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
05-12-2010, 11:15 PM
For those of you not familiar with the many terms used in lamp analysis and measurements you might want to check this out:

http://www.theledlight.com/lumens.html

David Gretzmier
05-13-2010, 06:48 PM
I agree with you on most points, and I do appreciate the time you take to post and deliver information.

but beam angle has been posted on most halogen mr16's for at least the last 10 years. manu's did use the terms you mentioned before that, and some still do, but LED's did not "herald" the easiness to read beam angle that you mention. I know Ushio used both for awhile, the BAB36 and BAB60 come to mind, and then went to just the angle. my new employees would not know what I wanted if I asked them to go to the truck and grab a BAB.

The difference this time around is folks are demanding metrics from LED's because of the incredible failure of the LED's that have come up to this point. color and life have been horrible. no one really demanded metrics for MR's, because of thier general similarity in life and color up until the really long life 10,000 hour plus ones came along and ruined the party. I would call many of those bulbs yellow orange, and were closer to 2300-2500k temperature. and the lumens were so low, that folks were upset about that as well and found themselves bumping to 35 and 50 watt bulbs in place of comparable 20 watt lower life ones.

Halogens may have excellent color and lumen maintenance, but only if the voltage is kept up to a spec that the halogen cycle can clean the bulb. even then, I still maintain that the lumen drop on a halogen mr, whether on your list of quality bulbs or not, is visable to the human eye the difference between new and at 70-80% life used. I have changed out GE's, sylvania, osrams, ushios and a dozen other bulbs at night, and I stand by the statement that any 20-35 watter after a year of use on photocell only ( all night long) the lumen difference can be easily visable to the human eye side by side. whether it is 10% or 40% drop probably is a testimony to the qulaity of the reflector or bulb, and in that you are correct. but even the best ones still drop. constant color is probably the best.

You are right, many manufacturors may have that metric info about mr's, but they don't put it on the package, it is in catalogs you have to ask for. or in PDF files. The difference this time around is you will see it on the package on LED's, epecially the color.

and finally,

dude, i am also pretty sure you are wrong on lumens. and lumens have been on every mass produced bulb sold in the US for as long as I can remember, except specialty bulbs like halogen reflector bulbs. and the last time I checked flashlight LED lumens, lux and candela's, the beam angle played huge on that equation, I don't believe there is just a standard 1 candela= x lumens. candelas is a measure of intensity, and the last time I checked, you get aprox 3.6x more candelas or lux from 100 lumens at 10 degrees verses 100 lumens at 36 degrees. lux can be measured by a lux meter, but again, that is intensity, not general illumination. you will get less lux from the same source the further you get away from it. lumens can only be measured by a lumen sphere built to UL spec. it measures the total light output of the lamp/bulb, period, from the source. not intensity or brightness from a certain distance. this measurement allow folks to see how efficent the lumens per watt equation is. Lumens is considered the best indicator of what the eye can see as far as general illumination. with the same angle, color, and reflector, a 200 lumen light is twice as bright to the eye as a 100 lumen light. This holds true all the way to around 2000 lumens. above 2000 lumens, it gets tricky because your eye will have a hard time telling 4000 is twice as bright as 2000. that is about the comparison from a 150 watt bulb incan verses a 300. most folks know it is brighter, but maybe not twice as bright. thus the lumen sphere is used on all bulbs at UL, except specialty / reflector bulbs.

I stand honest here and say I don't know everything. I hate for facts to ruin a good thread. but you've got a couple wrong, or to be nice, incomplete. :)

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
05-14-2010, 12:25 AM
David. You didnt read the link I posted did you?

"Now, lets convert the lumens, a metric unit of light measurement, to candlepower.

We understand a candle radiates light equally in all directions, its output, in this consideration is not focused by any mechanical means (lenses or reflectors). Pretend for a moment that a transparent sphere one meter in radius surrounds your candle. We know that there are 12.57 square meters of surface area in such a sphere. Remember your Solid Geometry classes?

That one candle (1 Candlepower/Candela) is illuminating equally the entire surface of that sphere. The amount of light energy then reflected from that surface is defined thusly:

The amount of energy emanating from one square meter of surface is one lumen. And if we decrease the size of the sphere to one foot radius, we increase the reflected energy 12.57 times of that which fell on the square meter area.

LUX is an abbreviation for Lumens per square meter.
Foot-candles equal the amount of Lumens per square feet of area.

So, that one candlepower equivalent equals 12.57 lumens.

And for you figuring out LED equivalents, first you must know how many lumens your LED's each produce. Then divide that value by 12.57 and you have candlepower of the LED. You don't have foot-candles, remember foot-candles are illuminance. And we are measuring radiance." http://www.theledlight.com/lumens.html

David Gretzmier
05-14-2010, 10:55 PM
I read your post, and tried to explain what my research and experience has led me to conclude.

James, if you are willing to do some research on candela and lumens on the internet, get back to me. If you look at more than 1 website, maybe 7, you will find a few university professors that will dispute the equation you are presenting. the equation you present only works with one candle in the lumen sphere. all LED, lensed and and reflector sources don't work with that equation beyond one candle. There are several websites that do state the equation you give and use the candle as an example. the other ones show how 1 candela can be 1 lumen or 12, depending on lens, reflectors or beam angle.

If, after research, you still feel you are correct, then fine. I will agree we disagree.

several of the websites that dispute that equation specifically mention the link above as incorrect.