PDA

View Full Version : Cannister air filters vs regular dual element filters and engine life!


grassman177
05-15-2010, 06:53 PM
I was curious about this via the other thread about the homemade air filter. i know cannisters are better but dont know how much in terms of engine life so here is my deal......................

we have cannisters on all of our ztrs wether it be the kubota diesels or the 25 kaw on our warriors.

all the other 17 hp kaw on our standers etc have the regular paper covered with foam stock filters. my experience so far is we dont seem to get that great of hours on those engines b4 starting to have issues especially with oil leaks and rings/valves.

800 hrs seems to be the pont at which most start at least to have symptoms but none have ever gone over 1100 hrs for us.

we change oil at 50 hrs, air filters are cleaned as needed or twice a week or so depending on conditions.

So, my end question is for any of your with walkbehinds or stand on mowers that have cannisters on the 17 or 19hp kaw engines get less trouble and much more life out of your engines with them for the added cost.???

thanks for sharing your expereinces.:drinkup:

SouthSide Cutter
05-15-2010, 09:51 PM
I have the same filter on my Scags, BobCats and WB. Only have to keep one type of filter around. I have never seen the inside filter dirty on any of my equipment. Have a 2001 GrassHopper with a 20hp Kohler and over 2000hrs. Still doesnt use oil. I just think they are the life of the mtr. Plus I run 15-50 Mobil 1 in all my air cooled equipment and also in the hydros, so I only keep 1 type of oil around also.
I have some of the complete filters extra so if I buy one without I just fab it and then put it back org before selling.

Richard Martin
05-15-2010, 11:09 PM
A well built air filter is a well built air filter. It's as simple as that. It doesn't matter whether it's in a canister, a mower, a car or a tractor. The differences is how the filter is mounted.

Kawasaki has some of the worst factory air filter housings I've ever seen. It is a job just to get them to keep dirt out of the engine. I have 4 Kawasaki engines here and only 1 of them has a decent housing and that's only if you're only comparing it to the other 3. They design them so that any larger dirt that does enter the housing is almost guaranteed to get stuck to the oil that is always inside of the housing. The reason the oil is always there is because they vent the crankcase into the housing instead of the intake manifold. Then even if you go to great lengths to get as much dirt out of the housing before you remove the air filter, some dirt always ends up falling into the engine. On the front air filter mounted engines like the early KAIs the seal between the filter and housing is garbage. There is no way to actually keep dirt out of the engine. I put an extra 3/8" layer of foam rubber around mine to get it to seal tight enough to keep dirt out.

Pennington Lawncare
05-15-2010, 11:21 PM
I went to buy a new filter for my mower's Donaldson filter housing and the outer element was going to be $40 @ O'Reilly's. I need to do some looking online.

grassman177
05-16-2010, 02:01 AM
so you are saying from the get go the air filters stock from the kai engines are letting dirt get right past the seals. hmmm, anyone else find this to be an issue?

assuming that is the problem, would having the cannister with proper sealing significantly extend the life of the internal parts of the engine. rings and valve seals are a big issue and that seems like a verfy likely culprit.

please anymore info and thoughts.

mdlwn1
05-16-2010, 02:26 AM
so you are saying from the get go the air filters stock from the kai engines are letting dirt get right past the seals. hmmm, anyone else find this to be an issue?

assuming that is the problem, would having the cannister with proper sealing significantly extend the life of the internal parts of the engine. rings and valve seals are a big issue and that seems like a verfy likely culprit.

please anymore info and thoughts.

Yes...absolutly true! The seal is very poor. I have had to breakdown and clean the carb on mine at less than 150 hours from new. The inside of the paper element was perfect...but the dirt around the edges was getting in.

Richard Martin
05-16-2010, 07:03 AM
so you are saying from the get go the air filters stock from the kai engines are letting dirt get right past the seals. hmmm, anyone else find this to be an issue?

assuming that is the problem, would having the cannister with proper sealing significantly extend the life of the internal parts of the engine. rings and valve seals are a big issue and that seems like a verfy likely culprit.

please anymore info and thoughts.

On the early flat panel filters it is a huge problem. That's why they changed to the current roundish type filter. Even with the newer filter you have to be very, very careful when you remove it so you don't drop any dirt off of the bottom of the filter down in the carb when you remove it.

The whole setup of the canister filter virtually eliminates this issue. They mount sideways so it very difficult to drop any dirt down into the carb intake when you remove the filter. They're a much larger capacity filter so you don't have to check them as often. If you use a FilterMinder you can check them once or twice a season. And the newer canister filters have a secondary filter inside of the primary filter just in case some errant dirt does try to get into the carb intake.

On my 13 hp KAI I check and clean the filter every week. On my canister equipped 28 Kohler I look at the FilterMinder occassionally while the mower is running. If it's in good shape I leave the filter alone and change it once a year. All I really do on my Kohler is open that little rubber dust catcher up once in a while and let what little dirt gets past the turbo precleaner out.

I ccould easily go for years without removing the air filter from it's housing. The only reason I remove it now is to replace it once every couple of years.

MikeKle
05-16-2010, 10:12 AM
I have noticed on mine as well, that the actual filter stays very clean and all the dust and dirt accumulates in the "dustcap" area, which is emptied every so often.

grassman177
05-16-2010, 11:43 AM
interesting, all our 17 hp kai angines have the oval type air filters, but seems like something is going thru to make these engines fail so early imo. maybe in the future we should order them with the cannister and prolong engine life.

the second part of my original ??? is how much engine life in hours can one expect to be gained from having a cannister filter on instead of stock? 300, 500? longer or no difference?

Richard Martin
05-16-2010, 11:51 AM
the second part of my original ??? is how much engine life in hours can one expect to be gained from having a cannister filter on instead of stock? 300, 500? longer or no difference?

That is hard for me to answer. I can only tell you what I've seen. I can only compare Kawasaki engines to the engines I've had on my Dixie Choppers and it's not even a fair comparision to almost any other mower out there. Dixie Chopper is huge into filtration. I know that my Kohler on my Dixie will easily outlast the Kawasakis I have. But whether it's attributable to the canister, the Turbo Precleaner or the Amsoil bypass oil filter I don't know.

robertsturf
05-16-2010, 12:54 PM
Ralph, we have had 2 Wright Standers 52/23 with the original style air filter system and we have easily gotten 900+ hrs out of them. We service the heck out of our machines and they are still running great. I have wanted to convert to the cannister style but the cost has been prohibitive. Are the guys popping wheelies with the mowers? Lol...

grassman177
05-16-2010, 04:34 PM
no, they are not.

i am getting frustrated at why my smaller kaw engines are not lasting very long at all. in fact the track record of the kaw 17hp is better for the old 17 and not the kai. the old flat panel air filters were on the old 17hp. no idea what that contributes if anything but the older ones had less issues and still have one on our wright velke mower and no issues but it has less hours too.

here is another fact, as i am sure all mowers are this way, but i can tell you that at our 50 hr oil changes the oil is super black looking like it is getting contaminated, does the dirt getting into the piston chambers(if that is what is the issue) get into the oil and then cause friction and wear and damage to the cylinders, or why does the top seal, bottom seal and oil pan seals seem to start leaking around the 800hr mark and then hence the beginiin to the end of the engine.

MikeKle
05-16-2010, 04:44 PM
Ralph, we have had 2 Wright Standers 52/23 with the original style air filter system and we have easily gotten 900+ hrs out of them. We service the heck out of our machines and they are still running great. I have wanted to convert to the cannister style but the cost has been prohibitive. Are the guys popping wheelies with the mowers? Lol...

If I had not had the canisters, I would not have done this, as the metal canister by itself, without the cap even was $400.!!! The locking cap and rubber inner part was I believe another $180, plus the piece that connects to the carb and it is one pricey project. I would love to know where the guy on here that mentioned he can get the canisters for $30. is getting them? The metal ones I used are much heavier duty than the plastic ones that now come on mowers though, thats why they are so expensive! I wonder if you could ask your dealer if they have an old canister assembly from an older mower that is junk, and see if they would sell it to you. I know my dealer has a freaking mower junkyard in this warehouse they own! I bet there are lots of canisters in there?

djagusch
05-16-2010, 05:01 PM
My 2008 Hustler trimstar with the 17HP Kawi came with the stock filter. That was replaced with the donaldson withing the first 20 hrs as the foam was picking up so much dirt. Think it ran around $300 for all the parts. Well worth it.

grassman177
05-16-2010, 07:05 PM
how many hrs you have on it now ???

Richard Martin
05-16-2010, 07:52 PM
here is another fact, as i am sure all mowers are this way, but i can tell you that at our 50 hr oil changes the oil is super black looking like it is getting contaminated, does the dirt getting into the piston chambers(if that is what is the issue) get into the oil and then cause friction and wear and damage to the cylinders, or why does the top seal, bottom seal and oil pan seals seem to start leaking around the 800hr mark and then hence the beginiin to the end of the engine.

The oil getting black isn't necessarily a bad thing. It just means the oil is doing it's job. It's picking up particulates in the oil and holding them in suspension. Old oils didn't really do that real well and that's part of the reason sludge was such a huge problem back in the old days. It was a common thing for auto and light truck engines to only last 100,000 miles at the most before a rebuild was required. The oil back then was just plain junk.

If you are getting anything but gas and air into the cylinders that is a bad thing. It will cause damage immediately.

The oil seal leaking is just the seals and gaskets getting old. It's not just age that destroys them. Heat cycles also are hard on them.

grassman177
05-16-2010, 08:51 PM
gotcha, i was just trying to put together an idea of what is happening and why we dont get longer out of these particular engines as we should being we do very good maintenance on them as stated by the manufacturers(kawasaki).

i mean still is the extra money up front when the engine is new from the factory worth it to have the cannister filters over the life of the engine or just replace the engine when it goes bad.

i hear of all these guys on here talking about howmany hours they have on their machines and that could be true for us as we have had many a machine go the distance but not without replacing the engine.

we have NEVER had this issue on any of our 25hp kaw engines with the cannister filters that are on our warriors. wehave had a couple now we have sold off and still have no issues with oil leaks or burning oil etc shortening the life of the engine.

sjessen
05-16-2010, 09:05 PM
gotcha, i was just trying to put together an idea of what is happening and why we dont get longer out of these particular engines as we should being we do very good maintenance on them as stated by the manufacturers(kawasaki).

i mean still is the extra money up front when the engine is new from the factory worth it to have the cannister filters over the life of the engine or just replace the engine when it goes bad.

i hear of all these guys on here talking about howmany hours they have on their machines and that could be true for us as we have had many a machine go the distance but not without replacing the engine.

we have NEVER had this issue on any of our 25hp kaw engines with the cannister filters that are on our warriors. wehave had a couple now we have sold off and still have no issues with oil leaks or burning oil etc shortening the life of the engine.


I really think you have answered your question in the post above. Only other question is do the larger kaw engines last longer than the smaller ones irregardless of filter type?

grassman177
05-16-2010, 11:25 PM
precisely sjesson!!!

is that true or what? do the smaller ones have a generally shorter life?? and why>?>?

i feel i would answer the question only completely if this detail would be clearer.

anyone have any comments on this factor!

Richard Martin
05-17-2010, 05:36 AM
gotcha, i was just trying to put together an idea of what is happening and why we dont get longer out of these particular engines as we should being we do very good maintenance on them as stated by the manufacturers(kawasaki).

i mean still is the extra money up front when the engine is new from the factory worth it to have the cannister filters over the life of the engine or just replace the engine when it goes bad.

i hear of all these guys on here talking about howmany hours they have on their machines and that could be true for us as we have had many a machine go the distance but not without replacing the engine.

we have NEVER had this issue on any of our 25hp kaw engines with the cannister filters that are on our warriors. wehave had a couple now we have sold off and still have no issues with oil leaks or burning oil etc shortening the life of the engine.

I hesitate to asnwer this particular question simply because I don't know the answer. I too have read accounts here of people getting incredible hours out of smaller engines. There are too many things we don't know about their engines to draw any conclusions.

1: Are they being truthful? It's the Internet. You can say anything you want.

2: Do they have an hour meter or are they just guessing? Guessing is completely worthless.

If they are being 100% truthful about their hours how are their engines treated? Are they like mine where the engines are usually only run for 10 minutes at a time? That is hard on an engine and can shorten it's lifespan. What kind of oil filters are they using? What about the oil and gasoline?

I don't know that putting a canister filter on your engines is going to make them last longer or resist leaking oil better. I seriously doubt it will make them resist leaking oil longer.

grassman177
05-17-2010, 08:50 AM
if true richard than these engines are sad, very sad and not worth $1800 bucks or whatever they cost new, close to that.

makes me wish they had other options on standers than kawasaki. we had great luck with them over kohler unitl now with these 17hp over the past couple of years. i am not the only one, other companies here i see their 17hp kaw are also leaking oil pretty bad.

we fixed all the seals on one engine last year (engine has 800hrs) only to have then the valve seals still letting oil thru and burning it at a rate of about 1/3qt per 8hrs. unacceptable imo!!!

SouthSide Cutter
05-17-2010, 11:25 AM
My 2008 Hustler trimstar with the 17HP Kawi came with the stock filter. That was replaced with the donaldson withing the first 20 hrs as the foam was picking up so much dirt. Think it ran around $300 for all the parts. Well worth it.

I bought the complete outfit without the auto ck vv. It was around 100.00. That was the cannister, top cover, the back cover plus the filters and the steel bracket. I think he gets his stuff from Stens. And it is the exact same filter thats on the Scag and Bobcat.
The other post on black oil. My walkbehind has a FS 18hp Kaw, the TT has a 29 DFI Kaw, the Grasshopper has a 20hp Koh, and the Procat has a 27hp Koh. All of them have the same airfilter all of them use 15-50 Mobile 1 and Fram filters. oil is changed as close to 50hrs as possible and the oil is never black, when checking it on the dipstick it looks new.
The highest hr reading on my equipment is 2034 and no oil usage on anything on a 50hr run.

grassman177
05-17-2010, 01:56 PM
so you are saying dirt is making it into the oil if it is black , as yours is not. i mean sometimes it is better than others times and it is just dark colored more than fresh, but sometimes it is black. we use new fliters every change(oil)

SouthSide Cutter
05-17-2010, 02:24 PM
Dont know, but what I do know is all oil is not equal in diff mtrs. I ran 10-30 Mobil 1 in my trucks GM and Ford a few years back. It would not run in a new Dakota 4.7. It would foam for some reason and looked like peanut butter on the dip stick. Changed to 10-30 reg Penn and it quit. My wifes new Denali does not like 10-30 Penn syn. After 4000 miles its dark and it stinks like it has been scorched. When I was drag racing you couldnt run Penn trans fluid in my glide because it was to slick and would scorch. had to go back to Type F Valvoline. I just dont have all the answers but when I do find something that works its pretty hard to get me to change.

SouthSide Cutter
05-17-2010, 02:33 PM
One other thing to think about is the fuel, thats why LP oil looks diff and cleaner it doesnt have the carbon build up like gas does. Try changing where you buy your gas.
My Dodge dually had always had diesel from Pilot, Loves or BP put in it nothing else. When I changed the fuel filter it was always like a new filter only wet. I started to run diesel closer to my house. Changed my filter and it was black, just like tar. You could rub your finger nail along the pleats and just see the build up. I about chit. And it wasnt a very long run time either. Went back to the other and everything went right back to normal.

khutch
05-18-2010, 06:56 PM
I always close the choke before taking off the air filter cover to keep crap out, then wipe out the intake w/the choke still closed. True, crap gets in there, but do these non-canister Kaw engines really die an early death? My 2005 has a LOT of hours, how many I don't know for sure, but runs great and doesn't burn or leak AT ALL.

grassman177
05-18-2010, 09:54 PM
ours are not lasting past 800 hrs without repairs and then they done last much longer after that and it is driving me crazy. every other engine we have be it the 25 kaw or the 26 kubota(both have cannisters) lasts well with little issues and no leaks like the 17 kaw are doing to us.

we have run several dif brands of oil over the years and none seem to be any less black than others(and it does smell scorched now that i think of it) so i have no clue there. right now we have 10-30 synthetic(i think valvoline).

sjessen
05-18-2010, 10:30 PM
ours are not lasting past 800 hrs without repairs and then they done last much longer after that and it is driving me crazy. every other engine we have be it the 25 kaw or the 26 kubota(both have cannisters) lasts well with little issues and no leaks like the 17 kaw are doing to us.

we have run several dif brands of oil over the years and none seem to be any less black than others(and it does smell scorched now that i think of it) so i have no clue there. right now we have 10-30 synthetic(i think valvoline).

You might try experimenting with the next 17 hp engine by converting it to a donaldson setup and compare it to what you are getting from the other engines. Don't think the air filter change will help with oil leaks though. Could that be a function of engine rpm? Wonder if some of your engines are getting hot.

Just one other thought...maybe the 17 hp engine is too small for the application.

blake101
09-02-2011, 08:16 AM
You might try experimenting with the next 17 hp engine by converting it to a donaldson setup and compare it to what you are getting from the other engines. Don't think the air filter change will help with oil leaks though. Could that be a function of engine rpm? Wonder if some of your engines are getting hot.

Just one other thought...maybe the 17 hp engine is too small for the application.

I have a 19 hp kaw with the oval air filter, where can I get the Donaldson setup for a 19 hp kaw on a Exmark walk-behind?

sjessen
09-02-2011, 08:17 AM
I have a 19 hp kaw with the oval air filter, where can I get the Donaldson setup for a 19 hp kaw on a Exmark walk-behind?

Your dealer should be able to get the kit from Kawasaki.

dhardin53
09-02-2011, 09:09 AM
The older Dixie Chopper like mine have 3 air filters. The first unit is a turbine spinner that helps remove the larger dust particles. The second is a Donaldson canister. The third is a large cake size and shape air filter for the super fine dust.
Its from my experience the better filter system should over time extend the life of a motor.

But this motor also has 2 oil filter, and 2 oil cooler (1. 3x4" on the Kohler shroud, 2. a 6x9" axially cooler). Not to mention the 2 hydro filters and hydro oil cooler (6x9").

I know its over done but I like it and the proof is the hour meter that just keeps on going at over 3000 hours and still runs strong.

sjessen
09-02-2011, 09:12 AM
The older Dixie Chopper like mine have 3 air filters. The first unit is a turbine spinner that helps remove the larger dust particles. The second is a Donaldson canister. The third is a large cake size and shape air filter for the super fine dust.
Its from my experience the better filter system should over time extend the life of a motor.

But this motor also has 2 oil filter, and 2 oil cooler (1. 3x4" on the Kohler shroud, 2. a 6x9" axially cooler). Not to mention the 2 hydro filters and hydro oil cooler (6x9").

I know its over done but I like it and the proof is the hour meter just keeps on going at over 3000 hours and still runs strong.

I have the turbine precleaner as well. at last check the 23hp kawi on my turf tracer is at 4200.