PDA

View Full Version : better grandstand


Southern Elegance
07-17-2010, 05:48 PM
would love to see a grandstand made for the tn hills. need 16 cc pumps, wider tires, remote air cleaner ( muffler located in fron of standard air filter very bad idea for a air cooled engin) some hills we do is very hard on the small 10cc pumps. but it will hold most any hill your brave enough to try.

Clark Griswold
08-14-2010, 02:34 PM
Are the TN hills any different than say a hill in VA?

Toro 44
08-14-2010, 06:47 PM
Sounds like you need a Wright Stander ZK. It's the only stander out there with 16cc pumps. It is head and shoulders above all the other stand on mowers including Wright's regular stander for heavy service. Of course I'm probably partial because I have one. But it is a really nice machine.

I have to say there are a lot of things I like about the grand stand too.

PS I forgot to mention the ZK is also the only stand on mower with the WIDE 24x12x12 tires. Of course wider tires does mean you have to be more carefull not to tear.

jbell36
08-17-2010, 08:29 PM
i agree that the main upgrade the grandstand needs is bigger hydro pumps, for speed and handling on hills...i am thinking about buying new equipment again in a year or two and would rather buy a grandstand if they did this one upgrade, but the zk is definitely in the running, same dealer too...

jbell36
08-17-2010, 08:30 PM
and once again, a floating deck would be nice too

mysteryman
08-18-2010, 12:49 PM
...and anybody familiar with my posts knows that i would ask for the reverse controls of the toro grandstand to be improved, mine, at least, currently are anemic and uneven in motion. if this is an exception to all the grandstands out there then it should be repairable, since it hasn't been repaired yet i assume and will operate under the assumption that toro cannot change this unsatisfactory condition.
toro44, does your wright perform this way? does your machine tend to travel incircles in reverse due to uneven pump/motor/lever action?

Toro 44
08-18-2010, 09:33 PM
Mystery Man,

I have read your posts about the reverse issues, and i think the answer is no.

The ZK tracks pretty true forward and reverse. While there is always a need to tweak side to side to keep going in a straight line, due to ground undulation and a little play in the controls, there is definitely equal power to both wheels in both directions.

The ZK uses a series of ball joints and levers where Toro is using cables. Wright used to use cables. I feel both systems have benefits and draw backs. As all those ball joints wear in, it adds up to a bit of slop in the controls (after over 500 hours). But then again, I feel it is holding up pretty well given the number of moving/wearing parts in the linkage system.

Toro 44
08-19-2010, 07:24 AM
Sorry, I meant equal power in both wheels from side to side. Reverse is about half the speed of forward. but whether you are goiing forward or backward, the power to both wheels is balanced.

You do have to make adjustements to keep going in a straight line due to ground undulation and control play. I'm not sure if what you are experiencing with you GS falls into this category or if you there is soomething more serious. If you are accustomed to pistol grip controls and not used to the "push to go" type controls, this might account for what you are experiencing.

Hope you get it worked out.

mysteryman
08-19-2010, 08:15 AM
TORO44, thank you for your responses. My issue goes beyond manipulating the levers to account for uneven ground, and I do recognize that the speed is reduced in reverse. In my case, I can be on relatively flat pavement or lawn and there's a noticeable difference between the left and right sides in reverse, it takes a LOT of lever manipulation of the left lever to track in a somewhat straight line. It is as if the right lever (in reverse only) is 'dead'. If you are familiar with gear/belt drive walk-behinds, the reverse is (on my old Encore) an assist rather than a full-fledged positive reverse drive. This is the same experience I get with the Grandstand in reverse, the right lever barely moves the machine. It becomes an exercise in backing-up with the left wheel, then catching up with the right wheel, this entire process of backing up is in steps. I cannot believe that Toro designed it this way, yet it hasn't been resolved as of yet.
Between what you stated about your Wright and the fact that the Grandstand does not perform well as a walk-behind I am sorry that I did not go with my first choice of the Wright. The walk-behind feature of the Grandstand would have been perfect for my application had it worked well, but as it is, I am using the grandstand as a stand-on only. With Toro not shipping mowers this spring I bypassed the demo stage and bought based on published marketing 'facts', that was a mistake. Thanks again for your input.

Toro 44
08-19-2010, 02:56 PM
I wouldn't right off the toro just yet. It sounds like there is a repairable issue. In the back of my mind, i wish toro had come out with the GS sooner, i might have bought it instead. Seems like the grass is always greener on the other side.

Can you look at your machine when it's not running and verify that the linkage on the side of your pumps is moving equal amounts on the right and on the left? If it is, you might have a pump problem and a pressure test might show it up.

I know how it is when you know there is a problem but the dealer says its fine. It is extremely frustrating. Warranties have limited value.

How many hours are on your machine? What size and HP? I have read your threads but cannot recall what you have.

Toro 44
08-19-2010, 03:07 PM
Just saw you have a 48" 24hp.

I know what you mean about the belt drive in "reverse". Not much help.

If are in an open area with the mower running, if you put both controls all the way back to the index bar, what happens?

Does it turn a little at first and then sort of straighten out? This could be just the split second timing difference between when both handles hit the bar.

Or does it go in circles? How big are the circles? Does it go in circles if you do the same thing in the forward direction?

Just curious.

mysteryman
08-19-2010, 03:16 PM
I wouldn't right off the toro just yet. It sounds like there is a repairable issue. In the back of my mind, i wish toro had come out with the GS sooner, i might have bought it instead. Seems like the grass is always greener on the other side.

Can you look at your machine when it's not running and verify that the linkage on the side of your pumps is moving equal amounts on the right and on the left? If it is, you might have a pump problem and a pressure test might show it up.

I know how it is when you know there is a problem but the dealer says its fine. It is extremely frustrating. Warranties have limited value.

How many hours are on your machine? What size and HP? I have read your threads but cannot recall what you have.

I have a 2010 24hp 48" unit. I believe that I have equal travel as I recall, I did lower the heat shield and looked at it a while back. I have (from memory) approximately twenty hours on my machine, I am a homeowner mowing my own lawn, I have experienced this issue from the beginning. At first I gave it some time to get a bit used to the controls, but even with only these low hours it became obvious that something is not right. Thanks again for your input. Regarding the mention you made of the pump pressure, that sounds promising, but would it affect only the reverse motion? I suppose I could be experiencing it in forward, I do have to 'jog' the levers, but I am attributing any unevenness to the ground. There is quite a difference between the way ths unit acts in reverse vs forward.

mysteryman
08-19-2010, 03:20 PM
Just saw you have a 48" 24hp.

I know what you mean about the belt drive in "reverse". Not much help.

If are in an open area with the mower running, if you put both controls all the way back to the index bar, what happens?

Does it turn a little at first and then sort of straighten out? This could be just the split second timing difference between when both handles hit the bar.

Or does it go in circles? How big are the circles? Does it go in circles if you do the same thing in the forward direction?

Just curious.

I don't want to answer this one from memory (although I did go through this execise in May) I will have to run through it again and will report back. Weather permitting, it will take a few days. thanks.

Toro 44
08-19-2010, 03:34 PM
Regarding the mention you made of the pump pressure, that sounds promising, but would it affect only the reverse motion?

It shouldn't but if there are no linkage issues, something is wrong. I'm guessing its a linkage issue though.

Toro 44
08-19-2010, 03:38 PM
I don't want to answer this one from memory (although I did go through this execise in May) I will have to run through it again and will report back. Weather permitting, it will take a few days. thanks.

I would take it out and try it. And drive a good distance, not just a couple feet, with the controls firmly against the index bar, both forward and both in reverse. See what happens. If you go in circles in forward or reverse or both, note what direction the circles are in, right or left. Determine all directions from the operators position facing forward.

Southern Elegance
08-25-2010, 08:37 PM
yes i used a wright zk 61" 31hp while my grandstand was in the shop.. there is no comparrision. the wright is built like a tank, holds much more fuel, much much much faster..But the grandstand does hold the steepest hills a little better, and is more comfortable to operate.. but the price is up there

mysteryman
09-02-2010, 10:59 PM
I would take it out and try it. And drive a good distance, not just a couple feet, with the controls firmly against the index bar, both forward and both in reverse. See what happens. If you go in circles in forward or reverse or both, note what direction the circles are in, right or left. Determine all directions from the operators position facing forward.

TORO44, Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, I backed-up with the two control levers pressed against the index bar. I moved them simultaneously, there's a slight (maybe a foot) straight reverse motion, then it wants to back up to the right forming an approximate twenty-foot circle (counter clockwise as viewed from above). Performing the same test in forward results in a pretty straight line (the surface is not absolutely perfectly flat so there is some slight adjustment required after several feet...but it does not want to drive in a circle) There is a marked difference between operating forward and reverse, the reverse motion definitely does not operate equally between left and right.

LCPullman
09-05-2010, 01:49 AM
I have a Grandstand with the same problem. As far as I can tell, the right hand lever, being the operator presence control, has a bit of play in it. If you have the levers in the neutral position and just lightly wiggle the levers back and forth, you will see that the right lever has noticeably more play in it. Thus, when you pull the lever back, it does not make the wheel go as fast.
This is actually a problem not confined to the Grandstand. The commercial walk-behinds with the same control system suffer from the same problem, although it is mitigated by several factors and on the walk-behinds we generally don't use full reverse power so we don't notice it.
It hasn't been problematic enough for me to attempt to find a solution though.
I suppose you could replace the left handle with one just like the right side so they have the same amount of play, but the problem there is that you really would need more travel on the controls to get the full speed range.

The reason it doesn't do it in forward has to do with how the controls are adjusted. If you adjust it so it drives straight forward and its real bad in reverse. if you adjusted it so it went straight in reverse, it would be bad going forward.

mysteryman
09-05-2010, 12:55 PM
I have a Grandstand with the same problem. As far as I can tell, the right hand lever, being the operator presence control, has a bit of play in it. If you have the levers in the neutral position and just lightly wiggle the levers back and forth, you will see that the right lever has noticeably more play in it. Thus, when you pull the lever back, it does not make the wheel go as fast.
This is actually a problem not confined to the Grandstand. The commercial walk-behinds with the same control system suffer from the same problem, although it is mitigated by several factors and on the walk-behinds we generally don't use full reverse power so we don't notice it.
It hasn't been problematic enough for me to attempt to find a solution though.
I suppose you could replace the left handle with one just like the right side so they have the same amount of play, but the problem there is that you really would need more travel on the controls to get the full speed range.

The reason it doesn't do it in forward has to do with how the controls are adjusted. If you adjust it so it drives straight forward and its real bad in reverse. if you adjusted it so it went straight in reverse, it would be bad going forward.


LCPullman, thanks for your input...why Toro or my dealer can't take the time and effort to explain this is beyond me. I am getting used to dealing with this shortcoming, maybe that's what they're planning-on. Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to share your experience with your machine(s).

LCPullman
09-05-2010, 06:50 PM
Just remembered something else, If you have a problem with reverse not being fast enough, you could check the first file listed in the following link.
http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php?p=3549901&postcount=108
It won't make the two wheels go the same speed but it can speed up the reverse if that is a problem.

mysteryman
09-05-2010, 09:22 PM
Just remembered something else, If you have a problem with reverse not being fast enough, you could check the first file listed in the following link.
http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php?p=3549901&postcount=108
It won't make the two wheels go the same speed but it can speed up the reverse if that is a problem.

Thanks again, LCPullman, I will look at the link...speed, however, is not important. I don't have speed, but would trade it for 'eveness' if I could. I need the reverse to get out of situations on a hill, even power is what would work best for me, speed would likely spin the wheels. maybe I'm egtting caught up in words here (speed, power, etc) but I think you know what I mean to say. Thank you.

grassman177
11-26-2010, 06:56 PM
hey lcpullman, nice info on adjsutments in case i come across this issue. thanks i bookmarked it just in case too

BCR840
12-30-2010, 12:09 PM
I know I may be a little late on this... Anyway I have a 52" Scorpion and this same issue in the beginning. It would track straight, going fwd. but in reverse it was like I could not gain control. I also felt a difference in speed and response between the left and right controls. I did some some troubleshooting and here are some things that made a difference. Air pressure in the tires were a huge problem, the slightest difference would cause tractionn problems to. The terrain was also a factor. My mower has the gas tank on the right side of the mower, so as I used up the gas it would change the way it responded. it was not very much but I did notice a difference. I understand that the GS has the tank in the middle. Overall i have not ever been able to get the mower to drive exactly straight in reverse. It never seems to be a real problem unless you are on a hill trying to back up. I had similar issues with a WB to, so it may just be that way. I do agree that it should not be going into a circle while reversing. I always have to juggle the controls while holding a straight line due to terrain anyway. Hope this helps you.

mysteryman
12-30-2010, 12:33 PM
Thanks, BCR840, I've been through the troubleshooting, the dealer had the machine twice, the right pump just acts as if it's dead, except that moving forward disproves this. As long as other Grandstand owners aren't complaining about this reverse problem nothing will be identified as a design or manufactusing flaw. I guess I have that one machine out of so-many that just has issues.

BCR840
12-30-2010, 01:11 PM
I just wish sometimes these dealers would go the extra mile to find a fix or get the mower working no matter what it takes. Maybe its just me but I would loose sleep at night over some of these mower issues. If dealers felt the same way as far as how important it is to us (LCO's) to have our equipment working properly we may just not be having these uneasy feelings about Toro or whatever company it may be. Toro needs to screen their dealers better. Good luck.

The Toro Company
01-03-2011, 10:10 AM
Hi BCR840,

Please let us know the model and serial number and we'll see if we can help you.

Thank you,
The Toro Company

BCR840
01-03-2011, 11:52 AM
I do not own a Toro.... yet. But have been following these threads very close. My point in the post above is to say that sometimes it may not be the company's fault on these issues people are having. I have noticed it is more the dealers that dont go the extra mile, or just do not know how to fix the problem. In my example, I had reverse issues, deck would not level, and the hillside stability was terrible on my Everride. I took it to a "Dealer" and he performed a test on the hydro pumps, cleaned out the system, replaced seals, and the list goes on. I tthen was looking over the mower myself one day adn noticed that the right front caster arm was welded on crooked. I took it back to the "Dealer" and he ordered a replacement. When it came in he installed it, called me to pick it up, and said it was all fixed, he checked the deck leveling and all. I went home and found it was even worse. I then spent 2 weeks trying to figure out on my own. I finally found the problem.... The "dealer" installed the new caster arm upside down. What an idiot. Once i put it on right all of my problems were solved. It was only a 2" difference in the level of the mower, but it was a huge problem. Alot of time was wasted, and I never took it back to that dealer. Everride was wonderful in helping through the whole process. I am now considering a Toro GS, but have not yet been able to decide on a dealer to go with.

grassman177
01-03-2011, 02:39 PM
you dealer makes the difference. that is a motto of a car dealership here in the area. it holds nothing but true.

M & L
01-05-2011, 08:50 PM
Hi BCR840,

Please let us know the model and serial number and we'll see if we can help you.

Thank you,
The Toro Company

I think? the original poster, and mysteryman are the ones who need help.


Bcr, My Great Dane did that at first. It is aggrevating when you take a 7k plus piece of equipment to some one and they just dont figure it out.
Then I work on it and figure some things out.
(like when they did a service, they moved a link rod, still unknown why)

I Am working with a new to me (this year) service shop and they get it...My mower goes fast strait forward and reverse!!!

Jimslawncareservice
01-06-2011, 11:20 AM
I agree with screening dealer better. my toro dealer subs all his stuff out. the guy he subs it too gives me the finger when i see him for no reason. i have never met or talked to him. I was concidering a gs but just cant get over he subs work out. I do buy stuff there not mowers just hand helds and snow blowers, but its stuff i can work on or take to a small engine guy