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MLI
08-08-2002, 09:59 PM
Any of you guys use this only to have tons of crabgrass appear? I think its time for a change!

KirbysLawn
08-08-2002, 11:05 PM
Remember your pre-m only gives about 5 months coverage at max, when did you apply? I use Dimension and apply in split applications, one in late Feb and one In mid April, gives about 7 months coverage so escape weeds are not a real big problem.

LAWNGODFATHER
08-09-2002, 03:14 PM
Unfortunitly pre-ems are not a sure fire way to keep crabgrass from growing.

Most of the errors in pre-ems are the applicator and timing.

To much moisture in the spring will put a big dent in the lenth of protection from pre-ems.

I see you have no idea what your doing, because what pre-em did you buy from Lesco?

They don't make thier pre-em, so was it Barricade, Dimension, Team, or pendimethaline(sp)?

KirbysLawn
08-09-2002, 03:55 PM
Actually LGF, Lesco has a Pre-M that they sell as "Pre-M" and it's labeled that way on the bag, yellow bag with yellow **** inside, it's Pendimethalin.

LAWNGODFATHER
08-09-2002, 04:11 PM
Pendimethalin, is not made by Lesco.

Reguardless there is an epa number on all herbicides, and this guy should know what pre-em he is using.

This so called pre-em is also sold as Halts in Scott's products and in other MFG pre em ferts.

All Pre-em's work to a point if properly applied.

Yes I missed the trademark Lesco "Pre-M", but it still stands that he should know what herb he applied.

I know Pendimethalin is Pre-M from Lesco. I have used it in the past.

I still preferr Barracade or Demension. I do want to take a closer look at Teem on a 5-5-20 if available.

tremor
08-09-2002, 08:50 PM
The active ingredient Pendimethalin was developed by the former American Cyanimid. Believe me when I tell you that LESCO & Scott's paid for it by making it the most popular pre-emergent herbicide in the world. Now owned & the technical grade material is manufactured by BASF. LESCO & Scotts are "formulators". Meaning we buy the tech from BASF, then manufacture the intended end use product with it.

Sort of like the ad on TV.

"BASF doesn't make the music. We make the tape in the audio cassette that makes it beautiful"- that kind of marketing brabble.

Also not unlike Ford & GM. They buy steal, tires, & other components from other manufactures. Then they assemble cars from the stuff they bought.

Trade names:

Pre-M = LESCO
Halts & Weed Grass Control = Scott's
Pendulum = the now extinct AmCy & now the new owner BASF. Pendulum is fairly new on the market & hasn't made much of an impact. It's exactly the same thing in the 60WP, 60DG, & 3.3EC forms.

That said, pendimethalin will work effectively for about 10-12 weeks. If you applied it one time @1.5lbs Ai/A on April 15th, then the barrier was gone on or around July 15th.

So don't start complaining about Crabgrass now if the barrier pooped 3 weeks ago. Because that's what pendimethalin is engineered to do. Congradulations! It worked.

I've visited lawns infested with crabgrass all week. Some were treated with Pre-M, some with Dimension, 2 with Barricade, several with Team Pro & one with (laughable) Tupersan. All had Crabgrass. Some had a lot. Shame on the applicators if they didn't see it coming.

One was treated with Pre-M on April 1, then again with Dimension Ultra on May 20th. It was pretty clean.

Split apps of anything will do this though.

Don't get too hung up on the marketting claims. Most Pre's do a good job when used as directed. But understand the limitations & the reasonable residual that each delivers based on rate. Without going into too much detail, my current opinion of ranking based on observed data in 10 years of commercial applications & 15 years selling all of the following except one. I'll omit Ronstar & the other pre's that are more popular in the southern states, since I'm a cool season person myself. I'll also omit Surflan because in the north, it's not used on turf. I'll rank them in order of residual only. There are certain features of each that make each uniquie. Some stain, some don't. Some do a better job on Broadleaf weeds than others. One does a better job on a wider range of grasses. One takes forever to set up a barrier & gets real goofy on some soils. One has the ability to "repair itself" if the barrier is broken. Most are available from different manufacturers & vendors for the convenience of competitive shopping. The top 5 are all pretty good if we understand their limitations. Like us, none are perfect.

This list is subject to some debate depending on which marketing guy is quoting which universities published date. But this is as close to honest as you'll probably find.

8 Tupersan (siduron) laughable but seedling safe
7 Drive 75 (yes it does work as a pre a little)
6 Balan (benefin)
5 Team 1.15 (benefin + trifluilin or Treflan)
4 TeamPro .86 (same as above but more Treflan)
3 Pre-M, Halts, etc (pendimethalin) many %'s
2 Barricade (prodiamine) slow starter & shorter than pendi on some soils
1 Dimension (dithiopyr)

Any other opinions?

Steve

Green Pastures
08-09-2002, 10:21 PM
Steve,

What do the #'s mean??? * being the least effective and 1 being the most?

Scott

tremor
08-10-2002, 12:24 AM
Uh-huh.

8= worst 1=best

in my opinion

Steve

TurfGuyTX
08-21-2002, 06:27 PM
I've had good results with Lesco's Pre-M. Application timing is crucial. I've used Drive to kill alot of it too. Not all of our customers want the full service we can provide. Good luck.

gkell88
08-21-2002, 09:45 PM
Have any of you ever had a lawn that seemed not to respond to Pendamethalin? The reason I ask is I have 2 of them on my program. The escapees were all foxtail, and all other lawns turned out fine. It appears to be a soil related thing in these cases, but I'm still looking for factors that may have caused this.

One of the lawns had the exact same results last year, so I made the applications myself this year, to eliminate applicator error(insert your jokes here):}

Actually when you've done this as long as I've done it, it's kind of interesting to see a new challenge. Of course the customer doesn't agree.

Any thoughts?


Gary

tremor
08-21-2002, 11:36 PM
Gary,

Yup, I've got an idea.

I spent today at the URI turf field day. The test plots were looking like they weren't treated at all. My customers got much better control. Here's why.

We're in USDA Zone 6 south/border-line7.
We usually expect that an April 15 crab treatment will perform well. This year, temps hit 90deg F arounf the 20th. Most applicators then rushed to get their "pre's" down. Before April was over, we had 2 minor frosts. Knowing this, Ray at URI mowed very short to allow the sun to "warm the soil", so his crabgrass trial worked as anticipated. Nearer NYC (MY AREA), those frosts didn't kell all the crabs. So near NYC, we have 2 sizes of crabs; "serving platters" & "desert plates". Just slightly farther north, we had a killer frost. The crabs that had already come up, all died. Those lawns got treated properly (we thought) at what what we thought amounted to a time approximately 2 weeks prior to the normal emegence of crabs. It never happened. Cool weather returned to the Northeast. It stayed cool & wet for weeks. Crabs didn't germinate til June 10th. By the time the big "CRABGRASS SEED GERMINATION PUSH" camea on, the barriers were all at least 6 weeks old. It made little difference what was used.

At 6 weeks of age, onlky Barricade was able to hold back the crabs that rushed into the field of test plots in Kingston, RI. In NY, it didn't matter. The 4-15 Barricades llok like they were never done at all.

Unless you made a second app on June 1st (MOST BETTER PROGRAMS WOULD INCLUDE THE SECOND "PRE" ON JUNE 15TH), then crabs ran amock. If the big push of germination occurs at the point where your "pre" is breaking down, then this is what we would expect.

My more conscientious customers do a liquid application around mid-June, that includes liquid N-Sure Based Liquid 18-3-6 fertilizer, Pre-M or Dimension Ultra, Talstar, Weed Control, & maybe Merit for Grubs. These guys are laughing at the rest of the "all-granular" applicators. They simply don't have Crabgrass.

This data was collected from the grounds of the Unoiversity of Rhode Island at Kingston by Dr. Raymond Taylorson & presented by Steve Jepsen of LESCO.

Hope this helps,
Steve