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View Full Version : Low Ballers WTF!!!!!!


cecilmac
09-15-2010, 07:54 PM
How many of you guys are getting killed by low ballin pos recently. Im getting so frustrated w these guys cutting my prices in half. And how r u dealing with this???

zedosix
09-15-2010, 09:04 PM
Low ballers are part of the game my friend, only time and quality work will overcome that.

csl
09-15-2010, 09:13 PM
just getting this problem recently? this has been going on for 5 years. everyone with a truck is now a contractor or landscaper. one thing we have done lately is keep track of all the fliers and road signs we see. then we call them, ask if they are lic., bond, insure, etc. and if they say "no" then we call L&I. i pay a ton of money every year to do things legit, so they should too. find some way to burn em back.

PatriotLandscape
09-15-2010, 09:15 PM
I tell the customer good luck and thank you for the opportunity to bid the work.

If they are not going to spend the amount it takes me to do a good job then they were never my customer anyway. as frustrating as it is you were never going to be the one they chose if they are choosing on price.

DVS Hardscaper
09-15-2010, 09:36 PM
What exactly defines a low baller?

There is a contractor in our area that sells work by the square foot.

He is undercutting everyone.

His annual revenues are $3 million.

He is making money. Yes he is.

He has also put quite a hurtin on my business.

His work quality is bottom of the barrell.

His annual revenues are $3 million.

To my knowledge, he has been sued twice.

He is making money.

He sells by the square foot.

I'm not so sue I consider him a low baller. He's selling Volkswagons, and I'm selling Cadillacs. In this economy - the Volkswagons are better sellers.

WHAT DEFINES A LOWBALLER??? One thing I learned from Tony Bass, you ALL know tony Bass, right? Tony once said: "never under estimate the intelligence of your competition"

As a result of this guy in my area with the $3 million biz, I have full intentions of revising some text on our website. In a smooth, well rounded, intelligent, gentle manner I plan to highlight our KNOWLEDGE, What to look for, and so on. And it's going to be compelling, yet written in an upbeat, chill tone.

,

DJJS
09-15-2010, 09:55 PM
just getting this problem recently? this has been going on for 5 years. everyone with a truck is now a contractor or landscaper. one thing we have done lately is keep track of all the fliers and road signs we see. then we call them, ask if they are lic., bond, insure, etc. and if they say "no" then we call L&I. i pay a ton of money every year to do things legit, so they should too. find some way to burn em back.

:rolleyes: Are you a contractor or L&I? Everyone deals with lowballers, suck it up and find something that sets your business apart, instead of wasting your time going around looking for flyers and calling them.

DVS Hardscaper
09-15-2010, 10:17 PM
DJJS - Hey - In that picture is that you and Adam Lambert (on the right)??

P.Services
09-15-2010, 10:23 PM
Just because he's doing 3 mil a year doesn't mean he's making money. Just because he has nice new equipment doesn't mean he's making it. Believe nothing you hear and half of what you see.
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steve5966
09-16-2010, 09:54 AM
Just because he's doing 3 mil a year doesn't mean he's making money. Just because he has nice new equipment doesn't mean he's making it. Believe nothing you hear and half of what you see.
Posted via Mobile Device

Yeah that.

csl
09-16-2010, 11:20 AM
i never said i was going out looking to burn people. we do mostly high end residential installs, and we get these fliers all the time. fair is fair. if they dont pay for the business license, insurance, etc. then yes i will turn them in. this is the kinda crap that makes it so they can lowball. they have no overhead.

DVS Hardscaper
09-16-2010, 02:58 PM
Just because he's doing 3 mil a year doesn't mean he's making money. Just because he has nice new equipment doesn't mean he's making it. Believe nothing you hear and half of what you see.
Posted via Mobile Device


Yeah. But that's not the case.


Not directed towards P.Services, but an observation I have made about internet forums is everyone is quick to draw conclusions.

A customer has a problem patio and the forum members instantly conclude that the customer went with the lowest price and says "serves them right".

A contractor is working for beans and forum members conclude that they're destined for failure.

I like to keep an open mind.

It could be that someone knows something that I/we don't.

It could be that someone isn't afraid to take chances.

You just never know what others know :)


,

Will P.C.
09-16-2010, 03:04 PM
i never said i was going out looking to burn people. we do mostly high end residential installs, and we get these fliers all the time. fair is fair. if they dont pay for the business license, insurance, etc. then yes i will turn them in. this is the kinda crap that makes it so they can lowball. they have no overhead.

If you have the time to call every business that puts out fliers everywhere, than you might want switch jobs since it sounds like you aren't making money.

tturbonegro
09-18-2010, 10:20 PM
I'm not so sue I consider him a low baller. He's selling Volkswagons, and I'm selling Cadillacs. In this economy - the Volkswagons are better sellers.



,


very well put

PatriotLandscape
09-22-2010, 07:41 AM
not that it matters but I like my volkswagen more than any cadillac. :)

DVS Hardscaper
09-22-2010, 07:45 AM
not that it matters but I like my volkswagen more than any cadillac. :)

I hope it's an old bug!!

JimLewis
09-29-2010, 04:39 AM
How do you overcome lowballers? I deal with this all the time. In many of the areas of landscaping we cover (patios and irrigation systems most of all) we get immense competition from low-ballers. Yes, it is very frustrating. And yet in both of those two areas where I get the most competition from low-ballers, we still install more patios and irrigation systems than just about any other company - in the areas of town that we service. It's not by winning a high number of bids. We still lose a good 75% of the jobs we bid. It's by giving lots of bids and making the best presentation.

A good majority of customers will base their decision mainly on price. Once in a while you'll be low bid if you're lucky. But if you're like me, that isn't very often. So mainly you have to focus on those who don't base their decision on price. There is a certain segment of society who have already learned their lessons the hard way. They understand that "you get what you pay for." And they're looking more for quality, references, professionalism, name recognition, and presentation. So you focus on finding those customers.

First, you get marketing dialed in. You should be getting so many calls and/or leads that you are giving so many bids that it doesn't matter that you're losing 75%-80% of the bids you give. If you're not getting that many leads you're either in a dead area or missing the marketing boat somehow. We do a lot of different types of marketing all at once. But the most bang for your buck (by far) in my opinion is have a fantastic website and make sure it comes up top of Google and other search engines when people type in things like, "Paver patios Portland Oregon". How do you do that? Either a lot of time and/or a lot of money. In my case, it was a lot of time. Because I didn't really have a lot of money to pay someone else to do it. But we do a lot of other marketing too. Point is, get the phone ringing! Drown out the bad leads by just getting more overall leads. Increase market share by getting your company name out in front of more of the market! Screenining calls is the next step...

Second, you work on your presentation. From the minute they see your pickup pull up in front of their house they should be impressed. If you don't have the most professional looking and noticable truck in your area, you're missing the boat. Same goes with your presentation. Do you have photos of your work ready to show them during the initial walk through? Are you handing them a big list of references before you leave? These are things you can have the upper hand in vs. the lowballers. You've got years and years of people you've done work for. Most of the lowballers don't! Use that to your advantage people! And give it to them BEFORE they ask. Give it to them at that first meeting.

Offer to take them to jobsites you've done. Walk them through what the really important steps are in doing whatever it is you do and how a lot of your competition gets those steps wrong.

Take the things that are your strong points and create a questionnaire or comparison chart with emphasis that includes all bullet points that you excel in and that the lowballers probably don't. Give them this questionnaire and have them ask these questions to everyone they are getting a bid from. Help them understand why they should hire you, despite the other guys' price being lower.

Do they already know your company name? If not, you've been doing a poor job of getting your company name out there for all these years. That should be your HUGE advantage over these fly-by-night low-ballers. If you've just been driving around in an unmarked or not very well marked (branded is a better word, actually) truck all these years and just thinking that doing a great job was good enough to keep you getting more work, you've made an error in judgement. If you don't have signs up on the sidewalks as your installations are going in, you're missing an opportunity! If you aren't putting notices on doors down the street in each direction as you start jobs (saying, "Hi. We'll be working in the area. Please let us know if we are in the way. By the way, here's what we do) then you are missing an opportunity! Guys, the days where one can survive off of just doing great work and from referrals are mostly over. Start re-thinking all those things you didn't think you had to do. Because now you have to!

Impressions are key. Image, professionalism, presentation. You need to wow them at every step of the way. Have a business card that is 200% nicer than anyone else's. Have a better website. Have more professional looking (branded) trucks. Have uniforms that look more sharp than the best company in town. Have bids that are more thorough and get them too them sooner than the others. Have nicer presentation material, portfolios, point of sale hand-outs, 1 page color cut-outs, whatever.

If you can't be the cheapest, then your goal should be to wow them in every other area except price. Make their total experience with you 2x as nice as the next guy.

We're not the biggest show in town. And I'm not saying I'm a guru at all this. Always still working at getting better. But we've still been growing by 10-15% while many others around us are down up to 50% in sales. All this in a state that is still 2nd in the nation in unemployment. We're doing some pretty serious volume these days.

I can tell you this; when I walk away from giving someone a bid - almost always they are extremely impressed. They might not be able to afford us. But they are always left wishing they could. My goal is to always leave people with that feeling. So the worst thing they can ever say about us is, "I really loved that company and their bid and their presentation. But I just couldn't afford them." I don't mind that at all. And I'm just looking for the ones who can afford us. The others, I just consider practice.

As far as I can tell, that's how to overcome the lowballers.

DVS Hardscaper
09-29-2010, 06:10 PM
Good stuff Jim!

This is why I created this here thread, but seems no one wants to do anything but plaster picturs and get a discussion going :)


http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=330061

stihljixxer
10-08-2010, 09:44 PM
I understand everyone's complaints about " lowballers" I think you need to step back and look at what the real problem is...shotty work,mistreatment of customers etc etc. Just because you charge market value doesnt mean you did a great job. The same goes for guys who charge under market value it doesnt mean they don't do good work. If someone is efficient, works hard and can be done a job faster than the next guy doesn't mean he is a lowballer. The amish and mennonite guys in my area only worry about one thing and thats doing the work. They aren't worried about competition or chatting all day long. Worry about your work and things will be just fine.

JimLewis
10-08-2010, 10:37 PM
Just because you charge market value doesnt mean you did a great job.

That part I agree with. It doesn't always mean you did a great job. But it usually is a good indication that you know what you're doing.

The same goes for guys who charge under market value it doesnt mean they don't do good work. If someone is efficient, works hard and can be done a job faster than the next guy doesn't mean he is a lowballer.

Here's where I differ with you. I will agree that guys who charge under fair market value doesn't mean they did shoddy work. But it usually does mean that they don't know what they are doing. And a lot of the time, it also means they have quite a bit less experience.

One thing I show my customers a lot is a color photo copy of the 1996 yellow pages - the 7 pages for the "Landscaping" category. That's the year I started my business. And I've put a bright red line through every company who has gone out of business since then. Care to guess how many of them are out of business now??? It's over 65%! Why is this? Is it because they all did shoddy work? Some, maybe. But I would wager to say the biggest reason is that because most of my competitors are slowly under-bidding themselves out of business. They land a job and they think they are making money because they covered their labor costs and material costs. But then the tax bill comes later and they can't pay it. The worker's comp. audit comes and they had miscalculated and now owe more than they can afford. The winter hits and all of a sudden they're having trouble paying all of their overhead that keeps going on all winter (shop rent, insurance, professional services, advertising, utilities, cell phones, and another host of expenses). So all the time they thought they were making money all spring and summer, they forgot to account for all the down time that their workers spend off the jobsite. They forgot to account for all the other company overhead. They forgot to account for equipment and vehicle maintenance and replacement. Unless they correct course, they finally end up with a mountain of debt and are out of business. And they can't figure out why.

Meanwhile, they were still doing "quality work" and they thought they were always charging enough to make a profit. But in the long run, they weren't profitable at all.

Your comment about "Worry about your work and things will be just fine" is a misnomer. You can do quality work all day every day and still be out of business within a few years unless you're pricing properly.

DVS Hardscaper
10-08-2010, 10:54 PM
Efficiency is something many folk can not understand.

Years ago one contractor wanted to get a bunch of us together and sit down and come to some agreements about price scales.

Well, there was no way I was gonna sit down with them and discuss my pricing as it wasn't open for discussion. And it's not because of anything secretive. But because of EFFICIENCY. There are certain tasks that we are VERY efficient in, and with that our prices are reflective of that.

One area of efficiency is burial of down spouts. Most guys rent trenchers, small backhoes, or small excavators to open the ground to run piping / drain tubing away from the hardscape and dwelling. Well, years ago I went out and bought our own trencher. No more rental. No more driving to the rental yard to load and unload. A HUGE SAVINGS!!!! Which enabled my proposals to reflect such.

Borders. Many prospective clients say to me "I hear radiused patios cost more because of all the cutting". My response is "well, not really, cutting pavers is what we do everyday, it's part of our routine". I do very little physical work in the field. But I do help with cutting pavers, and I actually enjoy it. Our system is I'll get a head start and I'll start marking the pavers to be cut, one guy will come behind me and saw and drop in place. We have a good system that works and we're able to miter them there pavers in a jiffy.

Cell Phones. Cell phones kill productivity. I had an employee that talked and talked on that darn cell phone every chance he got when I would not be present. And it showed. Needless to say - He no longer works with me.



,

JimLewis
10-08-2010, 11:15 PM
I hear you. Efficiency is good. And I think most contractors understand that every company is going to have a little different price. Efficiency is just one reason. Another reason is drive time. A customer may only be 5 minutes from our shop and 1 hour away from one of our competitors shop. So that's an extra 2 hours a day in drive time for them while for me, I don't have to account for that burden. So my price is going to be a little less for that reason. Every company has little ways to make a job go a little faster or slower. So a little variation in price from one company to the next is normal. I don't think anyone's calling that lowballing.

What IS lowballing is where you give a bid for a paver patio and your bid is $12,000 (and assuming you're approx. at market price). And then some other Ya-hoo comes in for the exact same patio $7,800 - a full 35% less! I'm sorry. But there's no amount of "efficiency" that explains that. That's either someone just doesn't know what they are doing and they are F'ing up the market.

DVS Hardscaper
10-08-2010, 11:21 PM
Jim, I think you and I think alike in many ways.

I say this because it was JUST TODAY that I was thinking about all the local guys that have come and gone. I don't have a percentage as I have not tracked them, but I think it's safe for me to say that 90% of the hardscape contractors that have come along since I been a hardscaper are no longer here. And each and every one of them have priced work way too low.

I have mentioned the guy in my area with the $3 mil dollar business. I've known him and his family forever. Many weeks ago I ran into him at the gas station. I told him he was pricing work way too low and was leaving substancial money on the table. He has no college education, and from speaking with him I don't think he has a full comprehension of business. He is pricing work by the SF. I asked him if he ever had a consultant come in and sit down and go over his numbers. He appeared as if he never heard of the concept of a consultant.

So today I was thinking "over the years all these guys have come and gone, I wouldn't be surprised if the guy with the $3 mil company joins the list".

I like the phone book listing tactic. Lately I have been breaking down some logistics of the industry with prospective clients when I do my initial presentation. Talking about pricing, employee wages, talking about this being a luxury service in times of s sever recession and how we're all hungry and desperate, what to look for, what to be aware of, and most importantly....WHY.

Ya know, 1999 was the last year we mowed grass full time. We had NICE, John Deere 755's and F-935's, with diesel engines. True work horses. Comfy to ride for extended periods, cruise control, power steering, foot controls at comfortable places. Etc. The point I'm making is that our mowing operation was a walk in the park, couldn't have been any easier. In 1999 my top guys were making $14.00 per hour mowing grass!!! They were given 2 weeks paid vacation and PAID holidays. We did not own any push mowers. We had walk behinds, but they were hardly ever used. Most of our work was tractor mowing. 14 bucks per hour to more or less ride a tractor all day and get a tan. Here, today, we have hardscape contractors paying guys $10 / hr to hump 70# block up a hill all day long in 96-degree weather. I'm hearing of hardscape foreman being paid $14 / hr!!! I consider hardscaping a CRAFT. A SKILL. And VERY HARD WORK. What kind of workers are you putting in people's back yards for $10 and $14 per hour?????

Jim mentions the tax bill. Been there done that. In the construction industry it's very easy to get into a bind with taxes. In 2009 we started using PAYCHEX to handle the payroll and the payroll taxes. Big load off my shoulders. Our payroll taxes are paid every week. I'm no longer scrounging up money for a monthly or quarterly tax bill. One less worry for me and gives me piece of mind when I climb in bed at night.




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JimLewis
10-09-2010, 02:47 AM
I think you're right. We do think a lot alike. The 1996 Yellow Pages idea is something I came up with 2 years ago. The hardest part was finding a 1996 Yellow Pages. I put an ad out on Craigslist and offered to pay $20 to anyone who had an old 1996 YP hanging around. Sure enough, someone answered and I went to get it. I didn't know for sure what the number was. But what I did know for sure was a lot of the guys who used to be in the game 15 years ago I never heard from anymore. Most of them I hadn't seen in years. So I wanted to prove to my customers who whine about, "Why should I pay more for your company? When this guy over here will do the same job for $2K less?" And some times customers even accuse me of being exorbitant, which really gets me ticked off. So I wanted to explain to them that I am not exhorbitant, I'm just one of the guys who knows how to price my services enough so that we will be around in 4 or 5 years, if a warranty issue were to ever come up. And most of those guys they're getting the cheap bid from WON'T be around then. So when they're patio starts sinking, they're going to call those other guys and be disappointed to find they aren't still around.

It works sometimes. I have actually landed a few jobs just because of that. But I don't use it with every sale. I try to rely on our credentials, website, reputation in the area, big long list of referrals, portfolio, etc. And if that isn't enough to convince someone then I will sometimes bring out the Yellow Pages thing. But only if they are bitching about price and asking for a reason why they'd pay more.

I got a job this week using it. The guy totally backed off and understood and then changed his tune. First he was asking me to go down on my bid by almost $1,000 (small job too. $1000 was almost 1/3 of the job). And he was questioning our hourly rate, saying our rates were exorbitant. This is a guy who has already had us do more than $20K of work in his landscape this year. He knows we went above and beyond and his job turned out just beautiful. All he got was compliments from everyone who has looked at it. But now he was questioning my rates and saying I was just way too high and how did I justify charging so much for this 1 day lighting job. He questioned the materials I was using. Questioned everything. I started to get annoyed and showed him the Yellow Pages thing and explained that yes, there are guys around who would do it cheaper. But they're not the guys who are going to be around in a few years to help him out. As I said, he quickly changed his tune and apologized for questioning me so much. Not only did we get the job but he then asked me to do the maintenance on his property too, even though he knows we're going to be quite a bit higher than his current guy.

Sometimes it helps. I try to use whatever I can. I'm tired of getting beat up by the lowballers. And I haven't lowered my prices at all. In fact, we raised our rates by $5 per man hour this year for bidding construction jobs and still staying very busy.

Fortunately, it seems to be working. This year will be our best year ever in terms of total revenue. We will end around $1.5Mil this year. That's $300K more than our best year to date. All that in a state that is like 3rd in the nation in terms of % of people unemployed. We went down in sales for the first time in 2008 and I vowed to fight that and never go backwards again. I amped up my whole marketing plan, image in the community, restructured my company, everything. Now I give twice as many bids and work twice as hard to impress people than I ever did before. The others can go out of business or falter in this economy. Not me. I got too much to lose. I'm going the other direction. I don't care what it takes. This boy ain't lowering rates and ain't going down no more.

Stillwater
10-09-2010, 05:28 AM
How many of you guys are getting killed by low ballin pos recently. Im getting so frustrated w these guys cutting my prices in half. And how r u dealing with this???

No- I use extensive- highly detailed and professionally photographed and assembled portfolios of all previous work that is coupled with long lists of happy customers. This previous work should be selling your future work. lowballers are to be ignored. But.... If your consistently getting under bid by 1/2 as you state this could be a red flag pointing to a bigger issue that you may want to identify and correct.

DVS Hardscaper
10-09-2010, 10:40 AM
Hmmmm.....I know I kept the phone book with our first ever DISPLAY ad. Where it is, I dunno.

LUCKILY - my dear old mother is a pack rat, and has every phone book dating back to when we moved to MD in 1974!!!!!! I ain't gonna carry the phone book around, I think I'll copy the ad and laminate it.

I do tell prospective clients that we have been doing hardscapes for 14 years, and I do tell them the importance of using a contractor that is likely to still be in business when they call 4 yrs from now and need a repair. I've had old clients from 10 years ago call and be amazed they we're still around.

When I meet with folks I ALWAYS show them pictures of our installation process. We sit down and go over each step, and as we do so, I explain the steps and why we do what we do. I also talk about what shoddy practices to be aware of. And I have pictures titled "work done by the low priced contractor", of flawed work that I show to people. I never say names of who did the work. This opens people's eyes, draws awareness. They are so used to seing beautiful jobs in magazines and such that they do not realize that yes in fact it can turn out terrible. One year, the same contractor that wanted us to get together and discuss pricing, told me to stop showing pics of showing pics of other's work, that it reflected poorly. Well, I said "It's making me sales and I'm not mentioning names, so I'll continue to do it". That was 9 years ago. And I'm still a believer in showing pics of other's work.



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starry night
10-09-2010, 11:12 AM
I am in the landscape maintenance business, mostly commercial.
I don't do any hardscaping but I am glad I came upon this thread.
DVS and Jim Lewis: what a great discussion! Lots of good thoughts in here.
I am one of the guys on the higher end of pricing in my area. I'm having one of my best years ever but I've been losing a few more jobs than I like to.
I probably have become too comfortable with my sales successes of the past.
So, as Jim suggested, I will be revamping my marketing this winter. I also like DVS's idea of showing photos of others' not-so-good work.
Thanks guys.

DVS Hardscaper
10-09-2010, 03:43 PM
One thing i wanna point out - When showing pics of others shoddy work you have to uSe the right tone in your voice and the right words. Otherwise u may come across the wrong way to the prospective client. It's kind of a skill. :)
Posted via Mobile Device

starry night
10-09-2010, 04:00 PM
One thing i wanna point out - When showing pics of others shoddy work you have to uSe the right tone in your voice and the right words. Otherwise u may come across the wrong way to the prospective client. It's kind of a skill. :)
Posted via Mobile Device

You're definitely right about that. Fortunately for me, I have considerable skill and experience in writing (words), public relations, sales, and business management. My horticulture knowledge came after that, gained through 26 years in business coupled with continued learning. The combinination of the two disciplines has worked well for me.

One of my immediate thoughts about the pics was that I have lost a couple core aeration jobs recently by not explaining the process thoroughly. I was called by a client recently who wanted to switch to organic lawn care. I told him about some of the treatments and also mentioned core aeration. He said he had already had that done. When I went to his home to do the organics,
I noticed the cores pulled were less than an inch long and the spacing was probably about 4 holes per square foot. If I had had a pic like that, I might have been able to show it to other potential clients that I didn't win because of price.

Incidentally, I told this guy I would core his lawn for free just to demonstate the difference. I don't typically do a job like that free but it was in a good neighborhood and I figured good for some advertising value.

JimLewis
10-09-2010, 04:35 PM
Agreed. I do the same thing some times. But never mention names and you got to be careful you don't come off as badmouthing or I guess the more modern word is being a "hater". You can't get too negative. Keep it positive.

DVS, it's funny you say you go through the whole process with your customers. I've been thinking of creating like a 5-page magazine style flyer that I would use for presentations and leave with the customer. And my document would have a step-by-step on the first couple pages and why all those steps are so important. Then the next few pages would have photos of our hardscapes. Only thing that's prevented me from doing it so far is the printing costs for something like that in full color is $3-$5 each!

DVS Hardscaper
10-09-2010, 06:51 PM
DVS, it's funny you say you go through the whole process with your customers. I've been thinking of creating like a 5-page magazine style flyer that I would use for presentations and leave with the customer. And my document would have a step-by-step on the first couple pages and why all those steps are so important. Then the next few pages would have photos of our hardscapes. Only thing that's prevented me from doing it so far is the printing costs for something like that in full color is $3-$5 each!


LOL - I have something that I came out with back in 2001 or so. It's on heavy stock paper, damn near similar to a the stock used for greeting cards. It's 8.5 by 11 and it restates all the steps of the paver installation process, step by step, with our logo water markd in the background (yeah, I have a few friends that are grapgic artists, sometimes I get carried away). I have a proposal packet that I put together and I used this piece as the back cover.

I could go on and on about what else is in my proposal packet, but..........the world wide web has eyes. I think I'll stop now :waving:






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Mr. Mow it all
10-17-2010, 12:11 PM
I had only a pick-up and an idea once..........

helidriver
04-28-2012, 12:13 PM
cSL.....they will f with u too now. Better to leave it alone and work through it. You r not the landscaper police. Relax and focus on working

AztlanLC
04-30-2012, 11:06 AM
Old tread pretty good information specially by jim as usual

jshilan
05-11-2012, 10:30 PM
Here is the link to an article that I wrote that discusses low ballers. You might find it interesting. http://www.fromdesign2build.com/public/215.cfm