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PlantscapeSolutions
09-23-2010, 10:27 AM
My bagged mulch thread has gone off on a tangent. I thought I would start a towing thread to get even more people involved in the madness. This thread is more for people who have experience with gas and Diesel trucks. But I'm sure some of the gasser guys will try to plead their case.

Does everyone else with gas and Diesel towing experience notice how the tow ratings of gassers are so overrated. They are now rating 1/2 tons for 9-10K+. I was looking at Ford's website and they rate their dually gasser for 15K. Oh my god! You've got to be kidding me! My in-laws have a F250 gasser and the thing is a total joke.

You put 10K behind any 1/2 ton gasser and send it out to tow on some steep hills and there's going to be problems. Yet you take a Diesel like an 09' Ram 3500 dually with a 6.7 and it's underrated at only 13,850 (3.73 gears). Pulling 18K with a Diesel dually is not a stretch at all. Even 20K is not an issue. At 20K your 44% past the Dodge endorsed number with no issues at all.

You take a 1/2 ton Toyota, Ram, Nissan. GM or Ford and pad the towing number by 44% and your in trouble big time. Gas engines are built to low load standard while Diesels are way over built. Especially the Cummins.

If you want to increase the output of a gas engine significantly you need major internal work done. The Diesels are just the opposite. You can double the output of a Cummins or Duramax without ever touching the internal parts (cams, rods, pistons, ect). I had an 02' Cummins that went from 245HP\505 TQ all the way to the 600 HP \ 1300 TQ range with all factory internals. Getting over 800 HP out of a Cummins or Duramax with stock internals is not hard. Just a programmer can add over 100 HP \ 200 ft lbs of power to a Diesel.

Now lets touch on the delusional people who buy heavy duty gassers. I would say you see more 3/4 & 1 ton GM's gassers, followed by Ford, and then Dodge comes last. It's extremely rare to see a Ram gasser 3500 dually. I've only seen one and it must have been a special order. Buying a heavy duty truck with a weak 1/2 ton engine rarely make sense. The retail value of a heavy duty gasser is pretty dire as well.

All right everyone else chime in with their two cents. This could get interesting. I have an 09' Ram 3500 6.7 4X4 and my maintenance crew pulls a 16' enclosed trailer with an 06' Ram 5.9CR 4x2.

Sammy
09-23-2010, 10:36 AM
I like the Echo CrossFire trimmer line.

DQL10
09-23-2010, 12:07 PM
I personally drive an F150 and it is rated to tow like 10,000 lbs. Not that I would tow that much on a daily basis but did do it once when I relocated a bobcat for a job this past summer. Not sure how much the total weight of the bobcat and trailer was but it felt like everybit of 9,000 lbs. Truck towed it without any issues and this was on a curvy two lane country road with trees lining both sides of the road.

Mark Oomkes
09-23-2010, 12:56 PM
I like the Echo CrossFire trimmer line.

:drinkup:

Agreed, it's waaaaay cool.

I went the opposite route, I have an F750 that I use to pull my 6X10' trailer with.

castlerockmo
09-23-2010, 02:12 PM
Ok I have a 08 f-250 5.4L gasser I traded my 05 6.0L diesel dually in. My 5.4 will pull 10,000 pounds pretty easy I have some big hills here. Fuel millage sucks on the 5.4L I get about 9 and with the diesel I got about 13 with a buLly dog programer and only 11 without. The 5.4 will hold its own up to 10,000 more than that my 6.0 was the king I could pull 26,000 easy. Now the new 6.2 gas that ford is putting in the 250/350 seems to be a good gasser, it has a lot more power than a 5.4. That's just my 2 cents from someone who has owned both.
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PlantscapeSolutions
09-23-2010, 02:55 PM
There a huge weight range for skids. The little ones start at 2800 lbs and the bigger ones like an S330 can go 9200 lbs. Your average sized S175 goes a little over 6K lbs and needs to be carried on a heavy duty trailer (usually twin 7K axles by default) with twin electric brakes. Around here the rental places will not rent you a skid steer unless you have a truck larger than a 1/2 ton for liability reasons.

PlantscapeSolutions
09-23-2010, 03:03 PM
Ok I have a 08 f-250 5.4L gasser I traded my 05 6.0L diesel dually in. My 5.4 will pull 10,000 pounds pretty easy I have some big hills here. Fuel millage sucks on the 5.4L I get about 9 and with the diesel I got about 13 with a buLly dog programer and only 11 without. The 5.4 will hold its own up to 10,000 more than that my 6.0 was the king I could pull 26,000 easy. Now the new 6.2 gas that ford is putting in the 250/350 seems to be a good gasser, it has a lot more power than a 5.4. That's just my 2 cents from someone who has owned both.
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Did you ever have any head gasket or EGR cooler problems with your 6.0? Those 6.0 really didn't like programmers. Several companies started making aftermarket high flow EGR coolers because of all the blown head gaskets and clogged EGR's. You could also buy EGR delete kits but they were for "off road use only" not that anybody actually uses them off road.

Richard Martin
09-23-2010, 03:28 PM
There is more to towing capacity than engine power too. Torque, which is what actually gets the job done when towing is increasable without even touching the engine. Then there is also the ability to stop the load once you get it going and the trucks ability to handle a panic situation. Engine and tranny cooling, wheels and tires. Stick or auto. If an auto the TC makes a difference. There are a bunch of things that go into a truck's ability to pull a load.

White Gardens
09-23-2010, 03:52 PM
There is more to towing capacity than engine power too. Torque, which is what actually gets the job done when towing is increasable without even touching the engine. Then there is also the ability to stop the load once you get it going and the trucks ability to handle a panic situation. Engine and tranny cooling, wheels and tires. Stick or auto. If an auto the TC makes a difference. There are a bunch of things that go into a truck's ability to pull a load.


Frame setup and gearing is also a big factor too in towing and hauling capacity. I've seen gassers out perform diesels only because they were geared correctly to haul and pull.

Marek
09-23-2010, 04:07 PM
You have not driven a v 10 truck then. It dosnt have the tourqe in the hills but will pull what ever you hook to it and it wont end up in the shop like may of the new diesels. I have a friend who has the same truck same dump body and gears but he has the 6.4 while we run the v10 and I have been getting .5 mpg better . Our stake body trucks are only used for what they were built for and we dont put that many miles on them, about 11 - 12 k per year. 7 grand cheaper up front, and its not in the shop like the diesels.Price out replacing the partical filter on a 6.4. If it needs a new motor at 100k I am still ahead of the game.

White Gardens
09-23-2010, 05:18 PM
You have not driven a v 10 truck then. It dosnt have the tourqe in the hills but will pull what ever you hook to it and it wont end up in the shop like may of the new diesels. I have a friend who has the same truck same dump body and gears but he has the 6.4 while we run the v10 and I have been getting .5 mpg better . Our stake body trucks are only used for what they were built for and we dont put that many miles on them, about 11 - 12 k per year. 7 grand cheaper up front, and its not in the shop like the diesels.Price out replacing the partical filter on a 6.4. If it needs a new motor at 100k I am still ahead of the game.

Also agree.

My 3500 HD with a gvwr of 15k has an 8.1, 492 V-8 in it. Basically it's a stroked out 454 and it has as much low end torque that I would find in a diesel. Coupled with the higher rear end gear ratio, it will pull all day, and when loaded with 4 tons it will keep 60 on a small hill with no extra effort.

My diesel mechanic was telling me to find a gasser, just for the cost factor. I'd rather find a good drop in gas motor for the same price as a set of injectors for a diesel. That out-weighs or evens out the fuel costs any day.

We also agreed that especially when plowing snow a gasser is the way to go. Starts up in the dead cold for starters and the fact that I didn't like the idea of never building any serious heat that a diesel needs to be efficient when doing small lots and driveways. I also didn't like the idea of spooling up and down a turbo constantly putting more wear on that pricey system.

I love diesels for anything that is constant duty, such as a tractor or otherwise where you would just give it full throttle and leave it there. I personally don't think diesels are good for trucks that aren't getting serious highway time.

Mark Oomkes
09-23-2010, 05:45 PM
Also agree.

My 3500 HD with a gvwr of 15k has an 8.1, 492 V-8 in it. Basically it's a stroked out 454 and it has as much low end torque that I would find in a diesel. Coupled with the higher rear end gear ratio, it will pull all day, and when loaded with 4 tons it will keep 60 on a small hill with no extra effort.

My diesel mechanic was telling me to find a gasser, just for the cost factor. I'd rather find a good drop in gas motor for the same price as a set of injectors for a diesel. That out-weighs or evens out the fuel costs any day.

We also agreed that especially when plowing snow a gasser is the way to go. Starts up in the dead cold for starters and the fact that I didn't like the idea of never building any serious heat that a diesel needs to be efficient when doing small lots and driveways. I also didn't like the idea of spooling up and down a turbo constantly putting more wear on that pricey system.

I love diesels for anything that is constant duty, such as a tractor or otherwise where you would just give it full throttle and leave it there. I personally don't think diesels are good for trucks that aren't getting serious highway time.

I was with ya up until the bold underlined part.

Then your logic fell apart.

All my diesels start up in the dead cold.

And with that iddy biddy plow blocking flow to the radiator, heat buildup is not an issue unless idling.

As for spooling the turbo? Whatever. Same thing happens to delivery vans\straight trucks in the city, so this reasoning does not fly either.

PlantscapeSolutions
09-23-2010, 05:52 PM
You have not driven a v 10 truck then. It dosnt have the tourqe in the hills but will pull what ever you hook to it and it wont end up in the shop like may of the new diesels. I have a friend who has the same truck same dump body and gears but he has the 6.4 while we run the v10 and I have been getting .5 mpg better . Our stake body trucks are only used for what they were built for and we dont put that many miles on them, about 11 - 12 k per year. 7 grand cheaper up front, and its not in the shop like the diesels.Price out replacing the partical filter on a 6.4. If it needs a new motor at 100k I am still ahead of the game.

I would never buy any of the 6.0, 6.4, or new 6.7 Fords. The Duramax and Cummins have had waaaay less problems. Cummins was first to meet the 2010 emissions standards back in 2007.5 and had to wrestle with the new DPFs. Just this year GM's Duramax is meeting the 2010 emissions standard. The new Ford and GM's use DEF to help with emissions. The 2011 C&C Cummins has DEF but the 2500's & 3500's won't use DEF until 2012 from what I've heard.The 2012 Cummins with DEF will likely up the ante in output to match or exceed the Fords or Duramax's numbers.

If you have a truck and don't do heavy towing a gasser can be a good investment. It seems like in the northeast (where I'm from but no longer live) and in areas where contractors don't have deeper pockets you see way more 3/4 ton and even 1 ton gassers. Texas is literally the king of pickup country and you see very few Ford & Dodge HD gassers here. If you see a gasser here most of the time it's a GM because they like the smooth ride of not having a live axle up front.

I think in general here the contractors tend to think about the trucks as a long term investment and in areas where the economy is not as robust contractors think more about the short term and the monthly truck payment first.

I plan on keeping my work trucks for about ten years which will put me in the 200K - 250K mileage range. The new gassers are better than the old but they still are not something I would want to tow with on a daily basis past 125K at most. There are hot shot guys with 200K & 300K plus on the DPF'd 6.7 Cummins still going strong.

I would not buy the new Ford made Diesel because it's a brand new engine and new engines always have kinks to work out that R&D didn't catch. The Duramax is not a new engine but it's heavily smogged with untested 2010 emissions standards.

My current 09' 3500 dually get about 14 MPG at best. Loaded I lose a few MPG but I still stay several MPG ahead of what a gas truck would get. For me knowing the engine is built for 300K overhauls is a huge plus. A hard worked gasser is usually ready to be put out to pasture at 100K - 125K at best. I pay more for the truck but it can tow way more without the engine breaking a sweat. With my truck loaded or unhitched I'm saving money over a gasser on MPG. A 3-4 MPG's saved over 200k span can add up to be a savings of over $10,000. Factoring in the Diesel truck could easily last 50% - 100% longer than the gas counterpart could save you another $10K - $15K.

Everyone looks at the variables differently. Some look short term while others look long term. Some people only care about the truck payment. Everyone's got their own opinion and outlook on how they want to invest their money in equipment. I try to do commercial quality everything that will last for the long haul and only Diesel meets that definition for me.

White Gardens
09-23-2010, 06:45 PM
I was with ya up until the bold underlined part.

Then your logic fell apart.

All my diesels start up in the dead cold.

And with that iddy biddy plow blocking flow to the radiator, heat buildup is not an issue unless idling.

As for spooling the turbo? Whatever. Same thing happens to delivery vans\straight trucks in the city, so this reasoning does not fly either.

As soon as you burn out glow-plugs or have a failed controller, then they can be a bear to start.

As for the turbo, it's still more moving parts to have, and more things to go wrong. Basically the simplicity of a gasser that I find appealing. Easy to work on, easier to do an engine swap, etc....

PlantscapeSolutions
09-23-2010, 06:57 PM
I was with ya up until the bold underlined part.

Then your logic fell apart.

All my diesels start up in the dead cold.

And with that iddy biddy plow blocking flow to the radiator, heat buildup is not an issue unless idling.

As for spooling the turbo? Whatever. Same thing happens to delivery vans\straight trucks in the city, so this reasoning does not fly either.

Very glad to hear someone from the Rust Belt states chime in. No more glow plugs is a good thing. Plus 650 ft lbs of torgue at about 1500 rpms to push heavy wet snow is a great thing. You really can't even tell new new quiet Diesels are turbo charged because their so quiet and smooth. What kind of trucks do you run?

Plus with that 8.1 you need ear plugs so the whooshing sound of the gas getting sucked out of the tank doesn't make your head implode. So many customers chose Duramax over the 8.1 that the engine was removed from the light duty lineup after a short period of time.

DitchDr
09-23-2010, 07:45 PM
I like Stihl back pack blowers

grassman177
09-23-2010, 08:10 PM
I am a big wrighty stander lover here, go kubota too!!

anyways, could not resist.

We have 5.4 and the 6.8 fords. we feel the 5.4 is pretty darn good and has given us no issues at all, as well as the 6.8. the 5.4 is a little small, and the new 6.2 is a total beast and a great replacement for it.

we have a f250 with the 6.8 v10 and it gets about 14 mpg, the same as our 5.4 v8 trucks all under a load towing. we were pretty impressed, and loved the extra power of the v10.

that said, we got a new truck with a v10, but this time a f350 with dif gears and it is way better geared for towing and feels like twice the power of the 250 given they have the same engine...... BUT, the f350 only gets a whopping 7.4 mpg!!!!! pretty poor, but it is solid and has plenty of torque especially given the proper tow gearing. these engines have been flawless for us, no need for a diesel as the loads are never really all that much, just your everage 18ft trailers with some mowers etc.

although we are huge ford fans, we also did not want the 6.0 or 6.4 diesels as there are way too many issues with them, and we dont have any issues with our gassers, ever.

i was a big fan of the 7.3 powerstroke, and although they are new, i think the 6.7 new pwerstroke is going to be a great thing and will be come to be known well as a great engine. it is a real hoss.

Mark Oomkes
09-23-2010, 08:28 PM
As soon as you burn out glow-plugs or have a failed controller, then they can be a bear to start.

As for the turbo, it's still more moving parts to have, and more things to go wrong. Basically the simplicity of a gasser that I find appealing. Easy to work on, easier to do an engine swap, etc....

I realize I could be a 16 YO girl from Miami, but I actually have a plowing sideline up here. All but one of my trucks are diesel. Combined, I have around 650,000 miles on my diesel PLOW trucks. The oldest is a '98 with a Cummins, before grid heater days. Next one is a '00 with a 7.3. Have yet to not have one start.

This doesn't include my Kubota RTV, Toolcat or JCB 212 that are also used for plowing.

White Gardens
09-23-2010, 09:03 PM
I realize I could be a 16 YO girl from Miami, but I actually have a plowing sideline up here. All but one of my trucks are diesel. Combined, I have around 650,000 miles on my diesel PLOW trucks. The oldest is a '98 with a Cummins, before grid heater days. Next one is a '00 with a 7.3. Have yet to not have one start.

This doesn't include my Kubota RTV, Toolcat or JCB 212 that are also used for plowing.


Either People have great luck with a diesel or they have the absolute worst luck with them.

I'm not saying they can't or shouldn't do certain things, I just can't justify spending the extra money for maintenance, fuel, repairs, etc..

bradseabridge
09-23-2010, 09:04 PM
Had a 6.0 ford, you couldn't get it to start in the winter for anything. NOTHING! even with the heating blanket plugged in all night. We would have to hook the charger the batteries to keep em from dying. Had to get up an extra 45mins early just to get that ***** to crank up. Once it did, it was a hoss but until it starts you hate it.

PlantscapeSolutions
09-23-2010, 09:47 PM
Had a 6.0 ford, you couldn't get it to start in the winter for anything. NOTHING! even with the heating blanket plugged in all night. We would have to hook the charger the batteries to keep em from dying. Had to get up an extra 45mins early just to get that ***** to crank up. Once it did, it was a hoss but until it starts you hate it.

We got down to 8 F & 12 F this past winter in Buda, TX and both my 06' 5.9CR and 09' 6.7 Cummins engines fired right up. I guess you found one more reason to the POS 6.0. My older 02' Cummins also never had a problem in the cold. My 97' F250 7.3 would blow awesome white clouds of smoke on cold mornings but that was an older glow plug equipped truck.

PlantscapeSolutions
09-23-2010, 10:21 PM
Also agree.

My 3500 HD with a gvwr of 15k has an 8.1, 492 V-8 in it. Basically it's a stroked out 454 and it has as much low end torque that I would find in a diesel. Coupled with the higher rear end gear ratio, it will pull all day, and when loaded with 4 tons it will keep 60 on a small hill with no extra effort.

My diesel mechanic was telling me to find a gasser, just for the cost factor. I'd rather find a good drop in gas motor for the same price as a set of injectors for a diesel. That out-weighs or evens out the fuel costs any day.

We also agreed that especially when plowing snow a gasser is the way to go. Starts up in the dead cold for starters and the fact that I didn't like the idea of never building any serious heat that a diesel needs to be efficient when doing small lots and driveways. I also didn't like the idea of spooling up and down a turbo constantly putting more wear on that pricey system.

I love diesels for anything that is constant duty, such as a tractor or otherwise where you would just give it full throttle and leave it there. I personally don't think diesels are good for trucks that aren't getting serious highway time.

The huge difference between a Diesel torque output and a gasser's torque is the torque curve. A Diesel makes incredible torque right off idle. My 6.7 makes 650 ft lbs at a measly 1500 rpms. It continues to make torque on a very flat curve up until redline at around 3200 rps. There is no spot in the torque curve with a huge peak or valley.

Gassers are the opposite they make no useable torque just off idle. Most large gas engines aren't going to make much torque until you get to at least 2500 - 3000 rpms. At this point the torque curve will peak quickly and drop off much more rapidly than a Diesel engine.

It's no accident that construction equipment, large boats, trains, U.S. military equipment (JP8 Diesel), generators, and even the backup power for the lifts at ski resorts are all primarily Diesel. Gas engines just can't come close to matching the flat torque curve found in Diesels. That Rudolph Diesel guy really knew what he was doling.

cgaengineer
09-23-2010, 10:42 PM
Diesels last longer due to the heavy duty build of the engine, heavy pistons, rods and rings top and bottom...easy to get more power out of them simply by increasing the fuel and the turbo pressure.
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White Gardens
09-23-2010, 10:44 PM
The huge difference between a Diesel torque output and a gasser's torque is the torque curve. A Diesel makes incredible torque right off idle. My 6.7 makes 650 ft lbs at a measly 1500 rpms. It continues to make torque on a very flat curve up until redline at around 3200 rps. There is no spot in the torque curve with a huge peak or valley.

Gassers are the opposite they make no useable torque just off idle. Most large gas engines aren't going to make much torque until you get to at least 2500 - 3000 rpms. At this point the torque curve will peak quickly and drop off much more rapidly than a Diesel engine.

It's no accident that construction equipment, large boats, trains, U.S. military equipment (JP8 Diesel), generators, and even the backup power for the lifts at ski resorts are all primarily Diesel. Gas engines just can't come close to matching the flat torque curve found in Diesels. That Rudolph Diesel guy really knew what he was doling.

Yes I understand that diesels produce a different torque curve than a gasser. Sometimes gassers even have more usable horsepower over a diesel, but the diesel has more torque at lower RPM's resulting in what you stated above.

Look, I'm a farmboy. I know diesels are a superior motor in constant duty equipment. I like diesels in everything but smaller trucks.

In trucks I think they are so far over-rated that If I by a new truck, I'm not going to drop another 10k to get the diesel option. It just doesn't make a lick of sense to me to drop that kind of coin.

Ultimately, I'm a landscaper. A gasser has more than enough power to do what I need it to do. If I was a full blown excavating company, pulling around a goose neck with a backhoe on it, then I would think a diesel would fit the bill.

I just don't get why a diesel is needed to pull a 12 foot, 10k trailer with only 2000 lbs of equipment on it. The cost ratio doesn't add up in those situations.

godflesh
09-23-2010, 11:02 PM
Unless you are dragging a large tractor or a small dozer, a 3/4 ton gasser will do everything you need it to do. If you have a granny geared axle and a good 5 speed you can pull a large tractor or a small dozer with a 3/4 ton gasser with a goosneck if you have some good trailer brakes and some good common sense.
Looking at engine fuels with modern passenger trucks is almost moot. They mainly rate based on the frame capacity and the braking ability. With the choice of gas vs diesel it boils down more on longevity of the engine vs maintenance vs fuel economy vs personal preference.
I've driven all of it from 1/4 ton rice burner to 2 ton sterling. I prefer the rumble and low end grunt of a diesel but hate the maintenance. 8 gallons of oil, 2 oil filters and a fuel filter every maintenance cycle. tons of fun. for the guys at the parts store anyway.

Sammy
09-24-2010, 12:22 AM
I like Stihl back pack blowers

BR 600 ? ..... Good machine ! :]

Richard Martin
09-24-2010, 03:34 AM
We got down to 8 F & 12 F this past winter in Buda, TX and both my 06' 5.9CR and 09' 6.7 Cummins engines fired right up. I guess you found one more reason to the POS 6.0. My older 02' Cummins also never had a problem in the cold. My 97' F250 7.3 would blow awesome white clouds of smoke on cold mornings but that was an older glow plug equipped truck.

It's actually pretty rare for it to get that cold where you are. Your normal high in the dead of winter is just over 60° and the normal low is around 45°. The winter temps never even get to 45° in the daytime where a lot of these other guys live for weeks on end. Temps well below ZERO are common. It can make a huge difference in the ability to start a diesel.

Mark Oomkes
09-24-2010, 08:25 AM
Either People have great luck with a diesel or they have the absolute worst luck with them.

I'm not saying they can't or shouldn't do certain things, I just can't justify spending the extra money for maintenance, fuel, repairs, etc..

Maintenance, fuel and repairs are more on a diesel?

Hmmm, filters need to be replaced. Gas or diesel

Spark plugs? None on a diesel. I know, they only need to be changed every 100K supposedly, unless you check the manual for extreme use which I consider plowing and pulling a trailer all summer. Plug wires? I've had trucks that wouldn't start because of moisture on the plug wires.

GPR, guess once every 100K on these is about right.

Fuel, I get far better mileage towing and plowing with my diesels than I ever did with a gasser.

Major repairs are scheduled much longer out than a gasser.

Just sayin' that much of your logic doesn't fly. If you want to discuss initial purchase price, I'm with you 100%.

It's actually pretty rare for it to get that cold where you are. Your normal high in the dead of winter is just over 60° and the normal low is around 45°. The winter temps never even get to 45° in the daytime where a lot of these other guys live for weeks on end. Temps well below ZERO are common. It can make a huge difference in the ability to start a diesel.

We're sheltered by the lake so we don't get the frigid temps others do, but last winter it was above freezing one day in over 3 months.

One other question for you guys that say OTR trucks are the only ones that need diesels, all those oil field guys in Northern Canada and Alaska that let them idle for days because of the cold, what kind of engines do they have?

MarcSmith
09-24-2010, 08:47 AM
....
you guys are way overthinking...

when I'n taking piggies to the market, I can move my sheep and goats around...to cut the grass. and when I need to really hauls some branches...

guess what when the scooter dies, I buy a anew one for 500 bucks.. way ahead of the game...

PlantscapeSolutions
09-24-2010, 08:59 AM
I am a big wrighty stander lover here, go kubota too!!

anyways, could not resist.

We have 5.4 and the 6.8 fords. we feel the 5.4 is pretty darn good and has given us no issues at all, as well as the 6.8. the 5.4 is a little small, and the new 6.2 is a total beast and a great replacement for it.

we have a f250 with the 6.8 v10 and it gets about 14 mpg, the same as our 5.4 v8 trucks all under a load towing. we were pretty impressed, and loved the extra power of the v10.

that said, we got a new truck with a v10, but this time a f350 with dif gears and it is way better geared for towing and feels like twice the power of the 250 given they have the same engine...... BUT, the f350 only gets a whopping 7.4 mpg!!!!! pretty poor, but it is solid and has plenty of torque especially given the proper tow gearing. these engines have been flawless for us, no need for a diesel as the loads are never really all that much, just your everage 18ft trailers with some mowers etc.

although we are huge ford fans, we also did not want the 6.0 or 6.4 diesels as there are way too many issues with them, and we dont have any issues with our gassers, ever.

i was a big fan of the 7.3 powerstroke, and although they are new, i think the 6.7 new pwerstroke is going to be a great thing and will be come to be known well as a great engine. it is a real hoss.

Is 7.4 mpg pulling or unhooked? I use a 06' Ram 5.9CR to pull my 16' enclosed trailer. I'm going to run the hell out of this truck since it still gets great fuel economy. It probably gets about 13 mpg pulling. Now is a great time to look around for pre-DPF'd trucks with low miles.

I'm planning on running my 09' 3500 truck to 100K and getting a DPF delete kit. I may add a Dynatrac free spin kit when they become available late this year. I can boost my MPG by about 1.5 - 2 mpg with a Dynatrac (you can Dynatrac a gasser 4x4 as well) and about another 3 mpg's with a delete kit. With a light foot this will make my heavy dually 4x4 get at least 16 mpg's on average. With a gas engine there is very, very, little you can do to boost output or mpg's.

Over the life of the truck 7.4 mpg's is going to cost a ton of money. Did you ever ponder getting a pre 2007.5 used Duramax or Dodge with a Cummins or are you a die hard Ford guy. I realize if your a Ford guy you've been hurt by the 6.0, hurt a little less by the 6.4, and now you don't know how hard the 6.7 might hurt you. Ford has definitely hurt many of its customers. I know a bunch of past Ford guys driving Dodges and Duramaxes.

PlantscapeSolutions
09-24-2010, 09:47 AM
Diesels last longer due to the heavy duty build of the engine, heavy pistons, rods and rings top and bottom...easy to get more power out of them simply by increasing the fuel and the turbo pressure.
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The fact that your injecting a lubricant causes a whole lot less wear than injecting a solvent like gas as well. With Diesel it's almost like your lubricating your engine twice over.

There are guys out there with Amsoil or other oil bypass kits running synthetic that have run their Powerstrokes, Cummins, and Duramax for 800,000 or more miles. There are a few that have hit the million mile mark.

I've seen just a regular old Dodge 5.9 24V at an auction with 512K miles. Most gassers are totally worn out and very lucky to limp to the 200K mark.

MarcSmith
09-24-2010, 10:02 AM
the problem with diesel engine is the truck is not built to last as long as the engine.. Interior fit finish, ect...

White Gardens
09-24-2010, 10:42 AM
It alll comes down to application and what you are using your truck for.


http://www.forconstructionpros.com/publication/article.jsp?pubId=7&id=8818&pageNum=1

I ran across this article from 2007 and agree with the author. I feel there is a place for diesels, just not in my situation.

I only put 15k on my medium duty truck in a given year, so a diesel isn't cost effective for me. I think someone else made the same comment earlier in the thread.

When I want fuel economy for errands and small jobs, I use my v-6 S-10 that gets me 20mpg's. roughly. On top of it, it turned over 200k the other day and the motor still runs strong.

As for Dependability, I know a lot of farmers who still run old grain trucks with gassers in it. In fact, I think my uncle still has an IH grain truck, bought new in 78 that hasn't had any work done to it.

It's all application and what you are doing with your truck and what demands you put on it. From a business economic standpoint, my gasser in my 3500hd is going to save me tons of money in the long run, and in a down-turned economy such as ours, I'm trying to minimize my long term expenses.

Richard Martin
09-24-2010, 11:43 AM
With a gas engine there is very, very, little you can do to boost output or mpg's.

Gas mileage I can't help you with but it is extremely easy to boost output on a gasser.

castlerockmo
09-24-2010, 01:16 PM
Did you ever have any head gasket or EGR cooler problems with your 6.0? Those 6.0 really didn't like programmers. Several companies started making aftermarket high flow EGR coolers because of all the blown head gaskets and clogged EGR's. You could also buy EGR delete kits but they were for "off road use only" not that anybody actually uses them off road.

Thats why I got rid of it. i should have never put a programer on it. It had a cracked head and egr and other problems. I didnt want to fix so I just traded it in. now if it would have been a 7.3 i would have fixed it, but then again I wouldnt of had any problems :hammerhead:

PlantscapeSolutions
09-24-2010, 01:33 PM
the problem with diesel engine is the truck is not built to last as long as the engine.. Interior fit finish, ect...

I kept my last truck for seven years and sold it with 180K in really good shape. But your on the money that it you work a truck hard with a crew and things tend to go to hell. Padding coming out of seats, nasty fabric, dirty headliner you can't clean, broken or missing knobs and buttons on things. And everything inside the truck either getting worn out or broken in some way.

The 90's and prior trucks seemed to be worse about door pins wearing making the doors clunk and all the plastic cracking and going to pot. But if you go past 200K you can expect to replace a lot of wear and tear parts. By the time you hit 500K the engine may be intact but you've shelled out $5k for AC, trans, water pump, alt, harmonic balancer and so on a time or two.

This is one area of ownership I don't have patience for. Once a truck starts to give me too many hassles it's got to go. There's nothing better than a new truck with a 100K engine warranty, zero down payment, and a 0% interest rate.

PlantscapeSolutions
09-24-2010, 02:18 PM
Gas mileage I can't help you with but it is extremely easy to boost output on a gasser.

In a Diesel you can increase the timing, boost, and change the fueling curve to very easily increase power. For less than a grand you can gain 100+ HP and over 200 ft lbs of torque. The best part is the extra power doesn't nuke the fuel economy or ruin your towing capability. With a gas engine to get 100 HP your probably going to need a super charger or other expensive internal work. More fuel is the main way a gas engine makes more power and that kills the MPG's.

My last 02' 5.9 24V Diesel had Formula One 1.6 injectors, Digital Water\methanol injection, Smarty, Edge Comp, ATS manifold, CFM intake, Spearco intercooler, Hight Tech Turbo Super Stock Turbo, FASS, and a few other odds and ends. This added about 355 HP and 795 ft lbs of torque. The truck made about 600 HP and 1300 ft lbs at the crank but still got about the same fuel mileage and would tow 18K up hills with ease. If you tried to even get a fraction of this power out of a truck with a factory gas engine it would self destruct.

All this work was over ten grand and would be overkill for most people. But all this massive power was added with the stock internal engine parts. My truck even had the stock NV5600 transmission upfitted with a SB Con ofe clutch.

Hell, I can't wait for my 6.7 warranty to expire so I can mod it and get the numbers up to at least 500HP and 900 ft lbs of torque. And the amazing thing is I'll gain 3 MPG's in the process!

PlantscapeSolutions
09-24-2010, 02:29 PM
Even though many people had issues with the 6.0 & 6.4 engines they were salvageable. If you check out the aftermarket that specializes in Ford Diesel performance parts they managed to fix everything Ford & Navistar screwed up.

You must have gotten corn holed pretty good trading in a damaged truck. How bad was the repair estimate?

Richard Martin
09-24-2010, 03:24 PM
The truck made about 600 HP and 1300 ft lbs at the crank but still got about the same fuel mileage and would tow 18K up hills with ease. If you tried to even get a fraction of this power out of a truck with a factory gas engine it would self destruct.

All this work was over ten grand and would be overkill for most people. But all this massive power was added with the stock internal engine parts.

I don't know about the Chevy and Dodge engines but this kind of horsepower is easily obtainable with the stock Ford modular internals.

castlerockmo
09-24-2010, 03:58 PM
Even though many people had issues with the 6.0 & 6.4 engines they were salvageable. If you check out the aftermarket that specializes in Ford Diesel performance parts they managed to fix everything Ford & Navistar screwed up.

You must have gotten corn holed pretty good trading in a damaged truck. How bad was the repair estimate?

I didn't tell them anything was wrong with it and they didn't look to hard. They gave me 15,000 for it and I owed 16,000 so I took it.
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PlantscapeSolutions
09-24-2010, 06:06 PM
I didn't tell them anything was wrong with it and they didn't look to hard. They gave me 15,000 for it and I owed 16,000 so I took it.
Posted via Mobile Device


It's nice to pull one on the dealer instead of vice versa. Congratulations!

cgaengineer
09-24-2010, 06:12 PM
the problem with diesel engine is the truck is not built to last as long as the engine.. Interior fit finish, ect...

This is why Toyota would do good in the diesel market.
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cgaengineer
09-24-2010, 06:18 PM
In a Diesel you can increase the timing, boost, and change the fueling curve to very easily increase power. For less than a grand you can gain 100+ HP and over 200 ft lbs of torque. The best part is the extra power doesn't nuke the fuel economy or ruin your towing capability. With a gas engine to get 100 HP your probably going to need a super charger or other expensive internal work. More fuel is the main way a gas engine makes more power and that kills the MPG's.

My last 02' 5.9 24V Diesel had Formula One 1.6 injectors, Digital Water\methanol injection, Smarty, Edge Comp, ATS manifold, CFM intake, Spearco intercooler, Hight Tech Turbo Super Stock Turbo, FASS, and a few other odds and ends. This added about 355 HP and 795 ft lbs of torque. The truck made about 600 HP and 1300 ft lbs at the crank but still got about the same fuel mileage and would tow 18K up hills with ease. If you tried to even get a fraction of this power out of a truck with a factory gas engine it would self destruct.

All this work was over ten grand and would be overkill for most people. But all this massive power was added with the stock internal engine parts. My truck even had the stock NV5600 transmission upfitted with a SB Con ofe clutch.

Hell, I can't wait for my 6.7 warranty to expire so I can mod it and get the numbers up to at least 500HP and 900 ft lbs of torque. And the amazing thing is I'll gain 3 MPG's in the process!

More air is the only way to increase power on anything, fuel alone won't do it...I always laugh when I hear someone tell me the put larger injectors in an engine or drilled out carb jets for more power...a normally aspirated engine can only burn so much fuel at standard combustion pressures.
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bradseabridge
09-24-2010, 06:55 PM
It's actually pretty rare for it to get that cold where you are. Your normal high in the dead of winter is just over 60° and the normal low is around 45°. The winter temps never even get to 45° in the daytime where a lot of these other guys live for weeks on end. Temps well below ZERO are common. It can make a huge difference in the ability to start a diesel.

Good call, where I am it's gets below 20's on the regular in the winter.

PlantscapeSolutions
09-24-2010, 07:38 PM
I think the guy from Michigan post trumps everyone and reinforces the fact that the newer Diesels start just fine because they are no longer dependent on glow plugs. I'm originally from Maine which get to -20 & -30 every winter. If you haven't driven your vehicle across a lake then your not from a cold area.

PlantscapeSolutions
09-24-2010, 08:43 PM
More air is the only way to increase power on anything, fuel alone won't do it...I always laugh when I hear someone tell me the put larger injectors in an engine or drilled out carb jets for more power...a normally aspirated engine can only burn so much fuel at standard combustion pressures.
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I'm totally aware of this and it's a good point. Here is another interesting fact for gear heads (like myself). If you put too much air in a gas engine it will lean out, burn hot, and often put a hole in the top of a piston. A Diesel engine is the opposite. The more air you can put in a Diesel the more efficient the combustion process becomes with no heat issues. Too much fuel and too little air is the danger in Diesels.

justanotherlawnguy
09-24-2010, 11:16 PM
who cares? so you have a bad a$$ diesel that can outpull everyone on the board. why bother posting about it, just laugh as they drive by you in your $60k diesel dodge.....

tcdodge4000
09-25-2010, 02:12 AM
Well for one you have to understand that the diesel motors that go into todays' pickups are ex medium truck motors. duramax is an isuzu medium truck motor, ford powerstroke is an international medium truck motor, and cummins goes into freightliner and sterling medium trucks. so these truck diesels motors are already packed with power and are turned down to match the transmissions to fit the docility of pickups. As far as gas motors is concerned, gas motors have not been torqued up to compete with diesels for power, but if they do they will lose fuel economy, yet they are simpler on maintenance and upgrades.

PlantscapeSolutions
09-25-2010, 08:11 PM
who cares? so you have a bad a$$ diesel that can outpull everyone on the board. why bother posting about it, just laugh as they drive by you in your $60k diesel dodge.....

Looking at your posting history you don't appear to have a whole lot of complex issues to discuss or debate with others. Your intellect doesn't seem to allow you brain to puke out more than two sentences most of the time. In over six years not one posting of any real content.

It is fun to interact with others on here who are in similar situations or who have interesting things to say. Your threads about getting your mower stuck in the mud or losing your trailer ramp is real cliff hanger stuff. Man, you should write a book about your travels.

Here's a tip- Instead of being negative on this forum if you don't care about a posting just shut the F up and move along.

grassman177
09-25-2010, 09:40 PM
you guys are getting school girl again, better quit before this thread gets dleted or shut down.

PlantscapeSolutions
09-25-2010, 10:14 PM
you guys are getting school girl again, better quit before this thread gets dleted or shut down.

Grassman, I've got to give you kudos because you seem to cruise the threads just trying to interject a little humor when you can. You don't seem to ever cruise the threads with your panties in a wad just trying to find something to beech about.

bradseabridge
09-25-2010, 11:59 PM
Well for one you have to understand that the diesel motors that go into todays' pickups are ex medium truck motors.

Motors are electric, ENGINES are in vehicles. Get it right.

Richard Martin
09-27-2010, 04:41 AM
There is more to towing capacity than engine power too. Torque, which is what actually gets the job done when towing is increasable without even touching the engine. Then there is also the ability to stop the load once you get it going and the trucks ability to handle a panic situation. Engine and tranny cooling, wheels and tires. Stick or auto. If an auto the TC makes a difference. There are a bunch of things that go into a truck's ability to pull a load.

I don't appreciate your use of my words to surreptitiously advertise your movie website.

Mark Oomkes
09-27-2010, 05:04 PM
Motors are electric, ENGINES are in vehicles. Get it right.

You need to buy yourself a dictionary.

Or use the myriad ones online.

Because you are WRONG.

bradseabridge
09-27-2010, 05:21 PM
Damn fat girl chill out, I was making a joke. If you ever hang out in the mechanical forum you would know.