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OrganicsMaine
10-12-2010, 03:55 PM
OK guys,

I've decided to put together a little class through our community services program to teach people how to get their lawn on to an organic program (hopefully mine!) I won't be teaching it until March, but the deadline for the winter/early spring catalog is Nov. 1.

I've got a couple of questions on this. First, how many sessions do you think it should be? I'm up in the air about how long to make this. Obviously, I will keep it pretty basic so as not to overwhelm people.

On that last thought, how far do you think I should go with it? My thoughts are to first go over the basics of what an organic program is and what the difference is between an organic approach vs. synthetic. Then talk about what happens to the soil when it is treated synthetically over a long period of time and then into what the steps are for getting it back in shape.

I will also talk about different weeds and how to control them. I can contact Paul Tukey and see about getting a deal on his book(he lives one town over from me) for the participants but I don't really want to promote Safelawns since they have a franchise nearby.

I guess at this point what I really need to figure is how long I should make the course so that I can reserve the time and space for it.

More questions to follow....!

tadhussey
10-12-2010, 05:58 PM
Paul's movie, "A Chemical Reaction" might be a good starting point too for getting people fired up to switch to organics. I think he only charges a dollar per person for public showings...

Depending on the size of the class you could probably get a deal with Timber Press for Jeff's book.

HayBay
10-12-2010, 08:44 PM
After listening to Paul Tukeys Movie, call a few of the Municipalities in Quebec and ask what pesticides are legal to use on lawns to this day. They will tell you Dicamba, Imadicloprid, Fenoxaprop-Ethyl and a bunch more.


I do think you are very kind to help out in the community.

Tim Wilson
10-12-2010, 10:21 PM
After listening to Paul Tukeys Movie, call a few of the Municipalities in Quebec and ask what pesticides are legal to use on lawns to this day. They will tell you Dicamba, Imadicloprid, Fenoxaprop-Ethyl and a bunch more.


I do think you are very kind to help out in the community.

Is the movie about Quebec?

ICT Bill
10-12-2010, 10:22 PM
1. Have fun

2. Have more fun

3. Keep it simple

4. have a silly prize

5. encourage seeding, seeding, seeding

6. encourage back yard composting

7. explain water management around the house including rain gardens and rain water storage for garden use

8. I'll be back

OrganicsMaine
10-13-2010, 09:33 AM
Hey guys,

We have already had a showing of Paul's movie in town, and it was shown to show how bad the chems can be. I'm not that educated nor do I have the time to get educated on the specifics of which chemical causes which ailment. What I want to do is work with the people to enable them to either do it themselves, or have my company come in and treat their lawns organically.

My thoughts for the course outline:

Day 1: Overview of organic lawn care. How to read a soil test and general fixes for the deficiencies shown. (1hr)

Day 2: Steps that will be needed to fix the example soil test(provided by me) and a rough time frame to achieve full organics. Talk about the different composts that are available in our area and what to look for in compost. How to compost at home.

Day 3: Different types of grasses and what they need. Talk about seeding when and how. Maintenance practices.

Day 4: Long term maintenance of the lawn once it is organic. Prizes and gifts with my logo on them.

I'll leave extra time each session for Q/A period.

Thoughts?

Keegan
10-13-2010, 08:47 PM
Who did you go through to teach the class? I contacted my local adult ed and no one returns calls.

OrganicsMaine
10-13-2010, 08:50 PM
Who did you go through to teach the class? I contacted my local adult ed and no one returns calls.

Just our local community services...basically our rec. department. Being in a small town, its pretty easy to get stuff done.

Hissing Cobra
10-15-2010, 12:41 AM
Hey guys,

We have already had a showing of Paul's movie in town, and it was shown to show how bad the chems can be. I'm not that educated nor do I have the time to get educated on the specifics of which chemical causes which ailment. What I want to do is work with the people to enable them to either do it themselves, or have my company come in and treat their lawns organically.

With all due respect, how can you teach a class on Organically grown lawns while focusing on the negative, damaging aspects of pesticide use if you do not know anything about them, nor have the time to learn about them?

Over the years, I've read COUNTLESS articles in newspapers and magazines about the dangers of these pesticides, yet there's no hardcore evidence to support the claims. Just last week, I read an article on how ADD and ADHT is now being linked to pesticide use. In the article, it stated that Organophosphates are to blame for the dramatic increase in both of these sicknesses. However, they had no data to back these claims and did not post anything at all in regards to "proof". It was just a general statement to bolster their news article. As for Organophosphates, they are a very small type of pesticide and one in which most people do not use and haven't used for years. Yes, there is still some on the market but they play a very small role in pesticide use in the grand scheme of things.

As with anything in life, there is a risk to using pesticides. If you mix them accordingly and use the necessary PPE when mixing and applying, the risk is dramatically reduced. Also, at the time of application, they're in diluted form and that lessens the risk as well. Most are designed to "wear off" within a certain amount of time and no longer carry the long residual timeframes that they once did.

I like the fact that you want to teach a class but instead of focusing on the negative aspects of pesticides, I feel that you should be focusing on the positive aspects of Organically grown lawns. It's won't hurt to discuss pesticide use if you know all aspects and their results but if you choose to do so, make sure that you've done your homework beforehand.

OrganicsMaine
10-15-2010, 06:20 AM
With all due respect, how can you teach a class on Organically grown lawns while focusing on the negative, damaging aspects of pesticide use if you do not know anything about them, nor have the time to learn about them?

Over the years, I've read COUNTLESS articles in newspapers and magazines about the dangers of these pesticides, yet there's no hardcore evidence to support the claims. Just last week, I read an article on how ADD and ADHT is now being linked to pesticide use. In the article, it stated that Organophosphates are to blame for the dramatic increase in both of these sicknesses. However, they had no data to back these claims and did not post anything at all in regards to "proof". It was just a general statement to bolster their news article. As for Organophosphates, they are a very small type of pesticide and one in which most people do not use and haven't used for years. Yes, there is still some on the market but they play a very small role in pesticide use in the grand scheme of things.

As with anything in life, there is a risk to using pesticides. If you mix them accordingly and use the necessary PPE when mixing and applying, the risk is dramatically reduced. Also, at the time of application, they're in diluted form and that lessens the risk as well. Most are designed to "wear off" within a certain amount of time and no longer carry the long residual timeframes that they once did.

I like the fact that you want to teach a class but instead of focusing on the negative aspects of pesticides, I feel that you should be focusing on the positive aspects of Organically grown lawns. It's won't hurt to discuss pesticide use if you know all aspects and their results but if you choose to do so, make sure that you've done your homework beforehand.

Cobra,
I appreciate your point, and as I said, I'm not going to focus on the movie because I don't have the time to get effectively educated on all of the details about pesticides and their negative effects.

My plan is to simply pose the question "Why not do it organically if the results are comparable?" While I think both sides of this argument will greatly exaggerate their information when possible, I also feel that it is common sense to not use chemicals whenever possible.

That is my approach, and I am finding that people are much more receptive to the organic argument without me force feeding them the horror stories.

ICT Bill
10-15-2010, 08:56 AM
Hissing you make a point, I'm not sure if it is a good one or not

many of the herbicides used today are endocrine disrupters meaning they disrupt the hormonal system, in many places in the US six legged frogs are common place and you can find unisex fish in many stream in the US

The USGS did a study from 1992 to 2005 on over 5000 water sources. 97% of the water tested, yes the stuff you drink, had at least one pesticide, over 25% had 10 or more

When you spray an herbicide/pesticide the chemical is carried into the air through evaporation, when you spray someones yard part of it is going to end up in someone elses

The bottom line is fertile soil, rather than feeding the plants directly your are supporting the broad range of bugzzz that make up fertile soil

fertile soil has many positives: soil porosity, aggrigation, increased water holding capacity, carbon sequestration, less water need, plants stress less and so on

treegal1
10-15-2010, 09:38 AM
OK, from some experience in teaching homeowner base classes , keep it real simple, only hit on one small point each class. if you give them to much at once it will ruin the class!!! and keep about 1/2 your time for Q and A thats the hard part getin put on the spot.....................

HayBay
10-15-2010, 10:48 AM
The World Health Organization just released a report within the last few months raising the minimum detectable level of ATRAZINE in our drinking water to 100 parts per Billion. (think of an Olympic size swimming pool and putting 100 drops of atrazine into it)

USA limit as of this moment is 3ppb, UK =15PPB and Australia = 30 PPB. Canada is 5PPB

This was an unusual step to take but the negative comments from environmental groups has been cited as one of the reasons.

Tyrone Hayes the Atrazine Frog Scientist will be very disappointed in this news.

The Farmers that use this product on our food are very happy.

Did you know that a simple water filter can remove almost 100% of Atrazine from your tap water.

Kiril
10-15-2010, 11:45 AM
Did you know that a simple water filter can remove almost 100% of Atrazine from your tap water.

Seriously man? Human beings aren't the only animals on this planet that depend on that water you know. :hammerhead:

HayBay
10-15-2010, 01:25 PM
This info is for the concerned citizens that feel chemical are unsafe.

Taken from the National Resources Defence Council

"The NRDC also suggests that Atrazine can be filtered out with a home filter."

"WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION is pretty serious stuff. Its not an environmental group.
WHO is the directing and coordinating authority for health within the United Nations system. It is responsible for providing leadership on global health matters, shaping the health research agenda, setting norms and standards, articulating evidence-based policy options, providing technical support to countries and monitoring and assessing health trends.

In the 21st century, health is a shared responsibility, involving equitable access to essential care and collective defence against transnational threats."


Kiril Please refrain from talking down or (iconing down in this case) to me. Be civilized.

tobylou8
10-15-2010, 04:07 PM
Seriously man? Human beings aren't the only animals on this planet that depend on that water you know. :hammerhead:

Human beings aren't animals. Some just behave like it.

treegal1
10-15-2010, 09:59 PM
Human beings aren't animals. Some just behave like it.

oh jez man tell me how it works then.....are you a vegetable

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_classification

tobylou8
10-16-2010, 01:58 AM
oh jez man tell me how it works then.....are you a vegetable

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_classification

It's called intellect. We have it. Animals don't. It's what allows you to think of a response in rebuttal to what I just said. I could say that to my dog or any animal and they would just look at me. You, however will argue with me because you have intellect. Thats how it works.

treegal1
10-16-2010, 09:13 AM
let me pose the question in a different way, where do we (humans) fit in the biological classification?

tobylou8
10-16-2010, 09:30 AM
let me pose the question in a different way, where do we (humans) fit in the biological classification?

We are in charge. Top of the heap.

ICT Bill
10-16-2010, 10:15 AM
Back on subject

it is probably best to pick one topic per class, treegal said you will overwhelm most folks with several subjects

One company I know does a class for an hour every Thursday evening from 6 to 7, the classes start around halloween and go until the end of January, often they have someone come and speak about a subject, so you could get a greenhouse grower in to talk about plants, an arborist to talk about trees, a local politician to talk about environmental legislation, etc

reach out to your local extention service they usually have a bunch of information on different local issues and can help, they will even do a presentation

when you don't have a speaker you can pick a subject

how to prevent fungal disease
different types of seed in our region and when to seed
backyard composting
Vermicomposting
water management
soils in our area, how to make them fertile
how to plant a tree or shrub
fertilizing in the garden and landscape
pest control
minimum risk pesticides
"organic" what does it mean, I would start with the USDA definition for organically grown crops

That should give you a start
If you get this going send me an email and we will donate some of our Earth Harvest Garden Fertilizer to give away

tobylou8
10-16-2010, 10:33 AM
Agreed. Info overload is counter productive.

Kiril
10-16-2010, 11:21 AM
Kiril Please refrain from talking down or (iconing down in this case) to me. Be civilized.

This animal thinks silly statements deserve a hammerhead on discussion forums. Really HB... you essentially said it is OK to pollute our water supply because those substances can be filtered out. If that is not hammerhead worthy I don't know what is.

Of course I could instead provide a list of journal publications, that you probably wouldn't read, demonstrating the flawed logic of your statement.

@tobylou8

We are animals .... end of story.

HayBay
10-16-2010, 11:39 AM
Kiril, its always a pissing match with you.

It sounds like its time to go through your journal publications.

Make sure that they are not from your anti pesticide buddies cause they have already been debunked by regulatory bodies all over the world.

Don't you get it.

If what you had was valid proof of the lack of safety with these products and you had your hands on Journal publications that proved it, the WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION and other prominent government agencies including the USA would be banning these products.

Its going to be a hard sell to ban Atrazine with a recommendation from the "WHO" that levels can be increased safely.

You also know why they are reevaluating Atrazine Right? Because of Activist groups not science.


Show me your Journal Publications on Atrazine and explain why the government bodies are too HAMMERHEADS.

Once your done that, which you won't be able to do. Go jump in a deep lake.

Tyrone Hayes (who I might say is much more intelligent than you yourself on this topic) has already tried to do this.


There are more than 14 version of the Precautionary Principle which one are you picking today?

Will your journals include any of these words by chance?

may be....
could have...
possibly linked to....
needs further research...

If so exclude them.


To the other posters Sorry to be off topic here.....

P.S. lets not forget the flawed logic of your roundup vs vinegar debate. You were wrong to say vinegar is safer regarding Lethal Dose requirements remember.

tobylou8
10-16-2010, 11:58 AM
This animal thinks silly statements deserve a hammerhead on discussion forums. Really HB... you essentially said it is OK to pollute our water supply because those substances can be filtered out. If that is not hammerhead worthy I don't know what is.

Of course I could instead provide a list of journal publications, that you probably wouldn't read, demonstrating the flawed logic of your statement.

@tobylou8

We are animals .... end of story.

What an intellectually naive statement. Of course maybe all you have is book learnins' and reason, logic and independent thinking left you a long time ago. Of course the intellect you have will cause a response. Like I said, I could read "War and Peace" to my dog and he would be none the wiser.

HayBay
10-16-2010, 12:09 PM
Not to intentionally drag ICT Bill's name into this but the drinking water topic was brought up previous to my filtering water post:

"The USGS did a study from 1992 to 2005 on over 5000 water sources. 97% of the water tested, yes the stuff you drink, had at least one pesticide, over 25% had 10 or more"

The reference to what an Activist association says about Atrazine in your water was also given by the NRDC "The king of Activist Groups" They are all Lawyers.

Kiril
10-16-2010, 12:16 PM
Kiril, its always a pissing match with you.

Call it what you want HB.

It sounds like its time to go through your journal publications.

Make sure that they are not from your anti pesticide buddies cause they have already been debunked by regulatory bodies all over the world.

Don't you get it.

If what you had was valid proof of the lack of safety with these products and you had your hands on Journal publications that proved it, the WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION and other prominent government agencies including the USA would be banning these products.

Its going to be a hard sell to ban Atrazine with a recommendation from the "WHO" that levels can be increased safely.

You also know why they are reevaluating Atrazine Right? Because of Activist groups not science.


Show me your Journal Publications on Atrazine and explain why the government bodies are too HAMMERHEADS.

Once your done that, which you won't be able to do. Go jump in a deep lake.

Tyrone Hayes (who I might say is much more intelligent than you yourself on this topic) has already tried to do this.


There are more than 14 version of the Precautionary Principle which one are you picking today?

WTF are you talking about? I pointed out that there are impacts to consider other than simply human consumption. Can you demonstrate that these products have zero impact on the environment?

Will your journals include any of these words by chance?

may be....
could have...
possibly linked to....
needs further research...

If so exclude them.

Now that is simply ignorant and merely demonstrates your lack of understanding how science works. Furthermore, one could say the same about the claims of pesticide corps ..... no? Why aren't you pointing out the ambiguity of their statements?

P.S. lets not forget the flawed logic of your roundup vs vinegar debate. You were wrong to say vinegar is safer regarding Lethal Dose requirements remember.

I don't believe I was HB, given the "debate" was concerning glyphosate vs. table top vinegar. However you can believe what you want, and you can jack up the concentration of acetic acid until you are "right" ..... makes no difference to me.

Kiril
10-16-2010, 12:26 PM
What an intellectually naive statement. Of course maybe all you have is book learnins' and reason, logic and independent thinking left you a long time ago. Of course the intellect you have will cause a response. Like I said, I could read "War and Peace" to my dog and he would be none the wiser.

Whatever guy .... your "intelligence" argument has no weight as there are plenty of "animals" with different levels of intelligence. I believe the distinction you are looking for is self awareness, however that doesn't change the fact we are still animals. We still eat, breed, and fight like animals, regardless of out vastly "superior intelligence".

tobylou8
10-16-2010, 12:37 PM
This was a nice friendly thread about educating the public until Kiril showed up. Must be nice to never be wrong (in your own mind). I think that is called self-deception. Anyone that doesn't agree with you is a moron (in your "mind"). Since science is the study of all things natural, as we learn more, we have to be flexible and willing to change what we believe. Case in point, Edwin Hubble. Ridiculed and vilified by the greatest minds at Harvard no less. Yet he pushed forward and proved that the universe was more than just the Milky Way galaxy. At this point in your life, you seem incapable of flexibility which puts you in the class of religious zealots and flat earthers.

Kiril
10-16-2010, 12:44 PM
This was a nice friendly thread about educating the public until Kiril showed up. Must be nice to never be wrong (in your own mind). I think that is called self-deception. Anyone that doesn't agree with you is a moron (in your "mind"). Since science is the study of all things natural, as we learn more, we have to be flexible and willing to change what we believe. Case in point, Edwin Hubble. Ridiculed and vilified by the greatest minds at Harvard no less. Yet he pushed forward and proved that the universe was more than just the Milky Way galaxy. At this point in your life, you seem incapable of flexibility which puts you in the class of religious zealots and flat earthers.

Ahhhh, as usual, the personal insults. :clapping: :rolleyes: You and HB sure like to lead by example. :laugh:

I might point out it is you who took issue with my animal comment ...... correct? So who started what exactly?

tobylou8
10-16-2010, 12:49 PM
Take it as an "insult" or food for thought. Sometimes the only way to get someones attention is to tell it like it is. It took a child to make the emperor realize he was really naked!

Kiril
10-16-2010, 12:49 PM
Take it as an "insult" or food for thought. Sometimes the only way to get someones attention is to tell it like it is. It took a child to make the emperor realize he was really naked!

Whatever guy .... believe what you want.

tobylou8
10-16-2010, 12:51 PM
Ahhhh, as usual, the personal insults. :clapping: :rolleyes: You and HB sure like to lead by example. :laugh:

I might point out it is you who took issue with my animal comment ...... correct? So who started what exactly?

Right. Cause you are wrong. End of discussion!

tobylou8
10-16-2010, 12:53 PM
Whatever guy .... believe what you want.

All your "intellect" and all you can come up with is "whatever"? Disappointing!

Kiril
10-16-2010, 01:01 PM
Right. Cause you are wrong. End of discussion!

:laugh: Time for you to check your taxonomy bud, because biologically speaking, we are animals, regardless of how you might choose to use the word.

tobylou8
10-16-2010, 01:18 PM
:laugh: Time for you to check your taxonomy bud, because biologically speaking, we are animals, regardless of how you might choose to use the word.

Like I said, it's science. It (science) changes and from a taxonomy point of view (which is ever changing, it's called research, you should try it), mankind is different and at the top of the heap. In the way you infer, it's use is simply biological/organic. That does not account for the spirit/soul/intellect/essence of our being. Maybe that is the part that bothers you.

Tim Wilson
10-16-2010, 06:54 PM
WTF are you talking about? I pointed out that there are impacts to consider other than simply human consumption. Can you demonstrate that these products have zero impact on the environment?

100% agree. Safety is so much centered on human safety rather than the effects on other fauna and flora.

and merely demonstrates your lack of understanding how science works. Furthermore, one could say the same about the claims of pesticide corps ..... no? Why aren't you pointing out the ambiguity of their statements?

100% agree. There is hardly a theory, study or journal article which does not include; may be, could have, possibly linked to, needs further research. [including very old theories which humankind has basically accepted as fact so much that many call them laws]

HayBay
10-16-2010, 07:23 PM
Tim, I was honestly embarassed for you when you reacted the way you did in the RoundupVs (now its "tabletop") Vinegar thread. I have done business with you on a professional level as well.

Thats as far as I go with debating you. You may not think of it as a favor, but it is.

Your Friend.:):):)

Tim Wilson
10-16-2010, 11:01 PM
Tim, I was honestly embarassed for you when you reacted the way you did in the RoundupVs (now its "tabletop") Vinegar thread. I have done business with you on a professional level as well.

Thats as far as I go with debating you. You may not think of it as a favor, but it is.

Your Friend.:):):)

I do not need anyone to be embarrassed for me and I feel no embarrassment whatsoever for anything I said in that thread. Although this is off topic, I do feel very shorted by you and the other Canadian, in that, legitimate reviewed information was requested and I took considerable time to provide it and neither one of you commented on the material. Instead you continued to carry on apparently talking about previously posted information which to me is relatively meaningless. This lead me to believe I had wasted my time. If you wish to bring something up related to that thread, then either open it up again or email me.

As far as my current comments, Kiril is completely correct [I left out the ignorant comment because of the conotations associated with the word but it really just means uneducated about a particular element and it really applies in this case] and that is all I wished to state.

OrganicsMaine
10-16-2010, 11:31 PM
And all of this can be used in a class that I want to teach how????:confused:

HayBay
10-17-2010, 01:13 AM
OrganicsMaine,

This thread has gone way off topic as you pointed out.
I am a partial contributor to that fact and I apologize.



I offer organic and synthetic products and services to my customers, I have no bias as to which they would prefer. They decide. I also share my experiences with members here on the different results.

That is not the case with my Friend, he is a supplier and manufacturer of Organic related products yet not a sponsor or real contributor to this site except for when it relates to what he sells.

Here is an example of what our Canadian Government Says about 2,4-D a common herbicide which is banned in the Province of Ontario at the moment with no scientific backing. Would you believe the reasoning can be as simple as Organic suppliers being financially and driectly involved with certain members of parliment. 50-70% of the lawn care industry here is failing because of this. Are people from Ontario just stupid as suggested?

Is it safe to use the herbicide 2,4-D on my lawn?

Following extensive consultation and scientific review using the most current scientific methods, Health Canada has determined that 2,4-D meets Canada's strict health and safety standards, and as such can be used safely when label directions are followed. Health Canada's review concurs with the findings of regulators in other OECD countries, including the United States, European Union, New Zealand and the Word Health Organization. http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/cps-spc/pest/faq-eng.php#isitsafe

I still think you are doing a great service by promoting your ideas within the community,
please keep in mind that pesticide are not EVIL when used as directed and that persons may question your intentions when you are teaching. Be prepared for this and as ICT Bill mentioned, HAVE FUN.

JDUtah
10-17-2010, 03:19 PM
You gotta love the maturity level of public forums... especially "organic" forums... can't we all just hit a bong... i mean... get a long...

Turbozcs2003
10-27-2010, 09:21 AM
You should teach them

1) soil sample, where to have it done and what it means, how to correct the PH and how to ammend the soil with organic matter. Most probably dump lime and compact the soil with too much magnesium up here.

2) Organic fertilizers, what they are, why they are a better option, what they do, time for them to improve the soil, expectations, where to get them. I prefer bagged material
I can spread myself, use Nutrients Plus. I would bet People in the class would probably prefer that option, ie they arent going to be too interested in making their own compost and would probably balk at the price of having material trucked in and manually spread. So if you push that beware, unless they have deep pockets, well maybe they do in Yarmouth ;)

3) Chemical fertilizers, what they do to the soil over time and why they may still be used but best to phase out over time and bridged to organic

4) Pesticides, how to recognize when you really need them and how to time their use but
that they should be last resort. How over time with continued use that they are bad for
the soil, dont attempt to show they cause issues with humans, homeowners dont care and are probably aware they arent very good long term for their health. IE, stop the carpet bombing of the grass if not needed.

5) Herbicides, same thing, encourage spot spraying to treet weeds versus carpet bomb with weed and feed.

6) Educate on how to cut and properly water, that seems to be the killer in my neighborhood, half the folks scalp the lawn and are too cheap to water once summer starts.

7) Composting, can teach them how to do it but somehow I doubt many are going to go thru the trouble.

Basically give them some common sense easy to use approach to improve their lawns and offer them your services. If they want to get into more detail then do so.

Note I am just joe homeowner and that is how I do things. I dont sweat the details and the green I am most interested in is the green I save in the long haul.

OrganicsMaine
10-27-2010, 09:37 AM
You should teach them

1) soil sample, where to have it done and what it means, how to correct the PH and how to ammend the soil with organic matter. Most probably dump lime and compact the soil with too much magnesium up here.

2) Organic fertilizers, what they are, why they are a better option, what they do, time for them to improve the soil, expectations, where to get them. I prefer bagged material
I can spread myself, use Nutrients Plus. I would bet People in the class would probably prefer that option, ie they arent going to be too interested in making their own compost and would probably balk at the price of having material trucked in and manually spread. So if you push that beware, unless they have deep pockets, well maybe they do in Yarmouth ;)

3) Chemical fertilizers, what they do to the soil over time and why they may still be used but best to phase out over time and bridged to organic

4) Pesticides, how to recognize when you really need them and how to time their use but
that they should be last resort. How over time with continued use that they are bad for
the soil, dont attempt to show they cause issues with humans, homeowners dont care and are probably aware they arent very good long term for their health. IE, stop the carpet bombing of the grass if not needed.

5) Herbicides, same thing, encourage spot spraying to treet weeds versus carpet bomb with weed and feed.

6) Educate on how to cut and properly water, that seems to be the killer in my neighborhood, half the folks scalp the lawn and are too cheap to water once summer starts.

7) Composting, can teach them how to do it but somehow I doubt many are going to go thru the trouble.

Basically give them some common sense easy to use approach to improve their lawns and offer them your services. If they want to get into more detail then do so.

Note I am just joe homeowner and that is how I do things. I dont sweat the details and the green I am most interested in is the green I save in the long haul.

Thanks Turbo! Great to get that feedback from a homeowner, especially a local one!

That is pretty much the approach that I am taking. Gonna start with the soil and soil test...how to take a sample, where to send it, how to read it and what to do with the info. Then get into treatments for the year followed by maintenance practices. Will probably be done over 4 classes late feb (after feb. break) into march.

Where are you getting your NP from? I'm not aware of any garden centers selling it locally.

Turbozcs2003
10-27-2010, 10:26 AM
Thanks Turbo! Great to get that feedback from a homeowner, especially a local one!

That is pretty much the approach that I am taking. Gonna start with the soil and soil test...how to take a sample, where to send it, how to read it and what to do with the info. Then get into treatments for the year followed by maintenance practices. Will probably be done over 4 classes late feb (after feb. break) into march.

Where are you getting your NP from? I'm not aware of any garden centers selling it locally.

I get it from Keygreen/Keystone Horticulture in So Portland. Jim and Tom post here once in a while. I asked them and they allow me to purchase a program from them. I have used it for the past 3 years, had soil samples done at UMaine each year. I have about 4-5 inches of sandy loam on top of sand. House is 10 years old. So they basically taylor a program of about 4 applications based ont the results. I also got some calcitic lime from them (Sol u cal?) As I recall. My soil had a lot of magnesium in it and the ph wasnt improving. I think this year it has been better. Will send out another soil sample. My lawn is about 7500 sq ft and looks very nice. I only had one issue of sod webworm about 4 years ago damaged a small section that I had to repair but they havent been a problem since. I spot spay with 2-4D to min the weeds but they are really an issue. On the other hands most of my neighbors have trashed their lawns(same builder who brought in and spread the topsoil and hydroseeded, lawns looked real good first few years) by having Chem lawn spray, poor watering pratices and poor mowing practices. I try to give a few tips but they dont listen. My neighbor next to me has Bubbas lawn service come in and scalp the lawn and wont fertilize nor water so he has all weeds and "dirt". Real sad for a custom built house.

Kiril
10-27-2010, 02:23 PM
Gonna start with the soil and soil test...how to take a sample, where to send it, how to read it and what to do with the info.

Might as well start now. How do you do the above?

HayBay
10-27-2010, 02:45 PM
Quote:
" I spot spay with 2-4D to min the weeds "

Caught my eye.

OrganicsMaine
10-27-2010, 02:51 PM
Might as well start now. How do you do the above?

Ok Kiril I'm ready to be schooled....

i would recommend that they take 7-10 samples with a minimum depth of 4" preferably 6"+ from various spots around the lawn. If the lawn area is larger than 20k, then they should do a front and back test. There will be times when they won't be able to penetrate down more than that, in which case i will tell them that they better plan on either adding topsoil or topdressing with 'post 2x per year.

let me have it.

OrganicsMaine
10-27-2010, 02:54 PM
OrganicsMaine,

This thread has gone way off topic as you pointed out.
I am a partial contributor to that fact and I apologize.



I offer organic and synthetic products and services to my customers, I have no bias as to which they would prefer. They decide. I also share my experiences with members here on the different results.

That is not the case with my Friend, he is a supplier and manufacturer of Organic related products yet not a sponsor or real contributor to this site except for when it relates to what he sells.

Here is an example of what our Canadian Government Says about 2,4-D a common herbicide which is banned in the Province of Ontario at the moment with no scientific backing. Would you believe the reasoning can be as simple as Organic suppliers being financially and driectly involved with certain members of parliment. 50-70% of the lawn care industry here is failing because of this. Are people from Ontario just stupid as suggested?

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/cps-spc/pest/faq-eng.php#isitsafe

I still think you are doing a great service by promoting your ideas within the community,
please keep in mind that pesticide are not EVIL when used as directed and that persons may question your intentions when you are teaching. Be prepared for this and as ICT Bill mentioned, HAVE FUN.

Meant to say thanks for your insight a while back hay bay.

Turbozcs2003
10-27-2010, 03:42 PM
Quote:
" I spot spay with 2-4D to min the weeds "

Caught my eye.

Yes, why not? I like things that work. I dont have many weeds and too busy to pull them. Too make this more organic, I usually have a cold Sam Adams in my other hand as I look for targets;)

phasthound
10-27-2010, 07:04 PM
Yes, why not? I like things that work. I dont have many weeds and too busy to pull them. Too make this more organic, I usually have a cold Sam Adams in my other hand as I look for targets;)

Oh man, the least you could do is to have a Sea Dog! :)

Tim Wilson
10-27-2010, 09:08 PM
4) Pesticides, how to recognize when you really need them and how to time their use but
that they should be last resort. How over time with continued use that they are bad for
the soil, dont attempt to show they cause issues with humans, homeowners dont care and are probably aware they arent very good long term for their health. IE, stop the carpet bombing of the grass if not needed.

5) Herbicides, same thing, encourage spot spraying to treet weeds versus carpet bomb with weed and feed.

Exactly! Give this man a beer or gold star.

Turbozcs2003
10-28-2010, 10:48 AM
Oh man, the least you could do is to have a Sea Dog! :)


or Gearys or Shipyard, whatever is on sale. Got a case of 24 Gearys Summer for 12$ at the local Bootleggers. Good Stuff :)

Kiril
10-28-2010, 11:28 AM
let me have it.

If that is all you have, this is going to be a very short course. :)

i would recommend that they take 7-10 samples

15-20 cores per sample set, after you determine areas that need to be sampled. For example, different hydrozones, management practices, topology, exposure, etc... are all items to consider when determining what areas can be reasonably combined in a single sample set.

with a minimum depth of 4" preferably 6"+ from various spots around the lawn.

For turf, I would say a minimum of 6"-8", and depending on the soil type and rooting depths, samples could be reasonably taken up to 12".

If the lawn area is larger than 20k, then they should do a front and back test.

For homeowners, the size of the lawn is probably never going to be the determining factor on how many sample sets will be needed, especially in your neck of the woods.

There will be times when they won't be able to penetrate down more than that, in which case i will tell them that they better plan on either adding topsoil or topdressing with 'post 2x per year.

How to proceed in this case will be determined by the reasons why you can't sample very deep.

Keegan
12-06-2011, 03:31 PM
So how did the class go? How many people took it?
I am strongly considering doing this.

OrganicsMaine
12-06-2011, 04:17 PM
One person signed up, so it was cancelled. I did, however, contact the person and did some work for them. I may try it again this spring. Let me know if you do it. Good luck!

phasthound
12-07-2011, 09:20 PM
One person signed up, so it was cancelled. I did, however, contact the person and did some work for them. I may try it again this spring. Let me know if you do it. Good luck!

Rick, I have tried contacting you by phone and by email with no luck. Please get in touch with me ASAP. Thanks.