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emby
10-22-2010, 10:12 AM
As all designers know, lamps are our tools which allow us to create a beautiful, elegant composition. We are artists and we follow our passion deep inside of us to illuminate all the wonderful plant material that we have been blessed with on this big blue planet.
You see we all love looking at such things as those big beautiful trees that sprawl from the ground and reach way up in the sky with such gracefullness. We observe these mighty creatures all day long and its only natural for us to search out a way to observe there beauty in the night sky.
When looking at these magnificant creatures you begin to see there huge sprawling branches reaching way up to the stars and with some light you begin to paint.
Our tools allow us to penetrate those canopies and capture the beautiful shelves of leaves that you see when standing under them. They are so huge they almost make you feel protected. Using a soft amount of light and a multitude of various beam spreads you are able to shine them up through all that tangle and create a pattern of various brightness to show that mighty creature off to the world. Sometimes it takes a long time to find the right tool for that particular spot but at the end of the day you have succeeded at displaying that elegant and gracefull creature and it looks amazing !

I am certainly not trying to create turmoil here but only to describe what particular tools we require to complete our compositions. Those tools MUST have the various beam spreads and brightness to ensure that we can properly show the magnificant details of these living creatures in the night sky.
In my opinion as of today October 22, 2010 the LED options that are available to me today are not ready to allow me to complete my composition with the detail that I love to incorporate into my designs. I know that some day the manufacturers will take the time to read and learn what exactly we do require but until that happens I cannot compromise the true beauty of those sprawling creatures to a simple swath of light because they deserve much more.

Ken Martin

trailboss
10-22-2010, 11:05 AM
Well said Ken - I feel your pain. We have only had one occasion to do a 100% LED design/install. That property was very simple and would allow all LED's. Our last few jobs have required a combination of LED and Halogen to accomplish the look we were after.
Steve

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
10-22-2010, 01:58 PM
Ken, I would like to see some of these trees that you cannot light effectively with LED! We have more than a few stunning specimins up here in the woods and I know where you live too. It can and is being done.

With LED lamps at 2700K, 3000K and 40000K, and offering beam spreads of 15 degrees, 30 Degrees, 45 Degrees (you can lens them to 60 Degrees if necessary) and with directional bipin LED for soft flood/accent and the new omnidirectional miniatures for soft flood and accent I cannot imagine a tree that cannot effectively be lit with LED.

As the market continues to develop for LED Lamps I can assure you we will continue to produce more options, intensities and beam spreads. That is the easy part.

Once the new brighter 350+ Lumen MR16 is on the market, even you guys in dense urban areas will have effective LED lamps to choose from.

LED is no longer "the future of lighting"... It is "the now of lighting".

emby
10-22-2010, 06:15 PM
Ken, I would like to see some of these trees that you cannot light effectively with LED! We have more than a few stunning specimins up here in the woods and I know where you live too. It can and is being done.

With LED lamps at 2700K, 3000K and 40000K, and offering beam spreads of 15 degrees, 30 Degrees, 45 Degrees (you can lens them to 60 Degrees if necessary) and with directional bipin LED for soft flood/accent and the new omnidirectional miniatures for soft flood and accent I cannot imagine a tree that cannot effectively be lit with LED.

As the market continues to develop for LED Lamps I can assure you we will continue to produce more options, intensities and beam spreads. That is the easy part.

Once the new brighter 350+ Lumen MR16 is on the market, even you guys in dense urban areas will have effective LED lamps to choose from.

LED is no longer "the future of lighting"... It is "the now of lighting".

James,

My above post was only to describe and reflect my sole opinion from my designing perspective. But lets both reflect on our lighting compositions prior to LED"S. We had and still do have way more paint brushes available to us as you have even noted in this thread...http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=331878
The different number of beam spreads, wattages, and colour temperatures are huge compared to what current LED's offer.
By having all of those beam spreads available we were able to successfully create a much more detailed composition with contrast and depth.
If landscape lighting designers do not describe how they use there tools than the manufacturers will never provide us with the proper tools to complete their unique composition. I know that LED's are the future but all I was trying to say in a really nice way was to ask us (the vast different disigners out here) what we would like to paint with instead of dictating what I should be be using. In my opinion that lowers the standard of detail in our compositions.

Not everyone paints like you. Have an open mind and listen to my individual needs because the MR16 halogen manufacuterers did.

Ken

emby
10-22-2010, 06:38 PM
Sorry about all the incorrect grammar and spelling but I think you guys know what I was getting at. :)

Prolightscaper
10-22-2010, 08:27 PM
I made 2 separate requests to see photos of large dense trees illuminated with LED in a different thread and both messages were deleted.

As far as I know there is currently no 35 watt LED equivalent for light output and color.

So how in the world can large trees be effectively illuminated with what equals or is purported to equal a 20 watt halogen?

Can I expect this request to be deleted too?

Illumicare
10-22-2010, 10:40 PM
My above post was only to describe and reflect my sole opinion from my designing perspective. But lets both reflect on our lighting compositions prior to LED"S. We had and still do have way more paint brushes available to us as you have even noted in this thread...http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=331878

The different number of beam spreads, wattages, and colour temperatures are huge compared to what current LED's offer. Yes there certainly are more Halogen MR16 options then currently exist in LED versions of those lamps... BUT... how many of those specialty Halogen MR16 Lamps do you regularly use in your landscape lighting systems? I have a Halogen MR16 lamp case on my truck. Inside it are: FMW, FRA, FRB, BAB, ESX, and 1032 lamps. Of these I would use BAB 80% of the time, ESX 10% of the time, and the others fill in the other 10%. I have never installed a 50W MR16 in a landscape lighting application. The 10W Ushio MR16s are a disaster and fail prematurely all the time, to the point that I will not use them anymore (I screen a 20W if I must.) If I need a VWFL lamp I lens a BAB.

Then you say you have a huge number of colour temperatures available to you in Halogen MR16 lamps? Really? Please show me that. Quality GE Halogens are 3000k and lesser lamps typically around 2800K. We offer 2700K, 3000K, 4000K and are working on a 5500K for specialty applications.

By having all of those beam spreads available we were able to successfully create a much more detailed composition with contrast and depth. Again I ask, how often do you use 8 Degree narrow spots in landscape lighting? We have a 15, 30 and 45 degree, and you can lens the 45 to get a 60. So what are you missing again?

If landscape lighting designers do not describe how they use there tools than the manufacturers will never provide us with the proper tools to complete their unique composition. I know that LED's are the future but all I was trying to say in a really nice way was to ask us (the vast different designers out here) what we would like to paint with instead of dictating what I should be be using. In my opinion that lowers the standard of detail in our compositions. Ken, I am not dictating anything. We started with a 3000K 45 degree. Perfecting that we added the next most commonly used lamp at 15 degrees. Then I was asked for warmer lamps, along come the 2700K series. Then we were asked for cooler lamps and along come the 4000K series. We also filled in the available beam spreads as soon as it was feasible. Basically if you can show me there is demand for a lamp we can build it. We have spent a lot of time and energy developing the new miniature line and we think most will be very impressed with it. We are still working out the brighter (35W equivalent) MR16 and are very close to putting it into production now... no shortcuts tolerated. After that we have other lamps to perfect. The list is long and for a very small upstart that was completely self funded on cash from operations, I think significant and impressive headway has been made in a relatively short time frame.

Not everyone paints like you. Oh I realize that.... and that is why we responded with all of the additional colour temps and beam spreads. Trust me, we are very focused on providing the industry at large with the LED lamps that they need to do their jobs.

Have an open mind and listen to my individual needs because the MR16 halogen manufacturers did. Ok, you should put a :laugh: up when you are joking... I am pretty sure the halogen manufacturers had their full line of lamps developed and to market long before you started down your path. That being said... please tell me exactly what your needs are and if there is enough depth in that market, we may be able to help you.

Ken

I would be interested in seeing what the timeline was for the development of all the different beam spreads and intensities of the Halogen MR16. My suspicion is that GE did not release 15+ different lamps to market all at once.

emby
10-22-2010, 11:35 PM
James,

Please do not take this personally. You are correct that I have not been in the landscape lighting business for that long but truth be told my passion has always been there.
My intention of comment on this open forum was to only describe what I have experienced and learned in the past five years. I don't think that the number of years I have been learning has anything to do with this. That hurt but thank God I had a couple of extra feelings this evening. :)

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and because I am a very particular designer, I do use and try as many lamps as possible to create that perfect composition. I just learned recently that not all MR 16's are created equal and yes they do have different colour temperatures from one manufacturer to another. I have had to use more wattage to complete compositions because of ambient light. What I am getting at here is that I have had different experiences, different jobs, and different compositions and I like detail. In order to achieve that detail in my scene, I need more beam spreads and brighter lights so that I can defeat the ambient light and illuminate those tall trees with some contrast and depth.
Maybe I'm not the world's best landscape lighting designer/installer (although everyone needs a goal!) but I do know that I would like more of a selection than what is currently available from ALL the manufacturers so that I am not limiting myself when creating my composition.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
10-22-2010, 11:53 PM
No worries Ken... I got all of that from your previous post. What I dont understand is what are we missing? Specifically?

We are working on a brighter, 350-ish Lumen MR16 lamp now and are very close, one that will be capable of replacing 35W Halogens. I will guarantee you that it will come in at least 15, 30 and 45 degree beam spreads, initially at 3000K with possibility to expand to 2700K and 4000K as the market builds. Good things take time.

If you want an LED MR16 that is dimmer than the 240 Lumen, 20W equivalent that we have now, you can filter or screen it. If there is enough demand for a 10W equivalent we can easily produce one as dropping intensity is quite simple to do. So far nobody that I know of is asking for them.

Will LED lamps replace halogen now or in the near future? No, of course not. I realize that. I just get a bit "emphatic" when people suggest that LED lamps are not viable options. With thousands sucessfully installed to date, I can personally attest to their suitability and performance.

Regards

Prolightscaper
10-23-2010, 10:02 AM
Could someone please post some photos of some large trees illuminated with LED.

RLI Electric
10-23-2010, 10:43 AM
Prolightscaper, I don't know if I am allowed to post a photo of a tree we lit last year at the LLI. If you go to Jan Moyers website and look under class of 2009 group 3, we did a full grown Pinoak(?) tree with all LED. It is the first time one of the classes had attempted that. We were very pleased with the result. Cohesively speaking (if that is even a word) we were right next to a full grown Sycamore tree and there was no differentiation in the effect of the two. If anyone knows if I am allowed to post that photo, I will do that. If not, take the 3 seconds to go to her site and see what I am talking about. It can be done, it is being done and it will continue to be done.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
10-23-2010, 12:27 PM
Most of the photos I have posted here in the past 2 years have been 100% LED. In them you will see large Maple, Oak and White Pine illuminated. Obviously I have not taken photos of each and every element in every job.

As Bob said, it can be done, it is being done, and it will continue.... with fantastic results too.

David Gretzmier
10-23-2010, 10:59 PM
It seems we will have this LED conversation in every thread.

Jame's past photo's do speak for themselves, the LED's and the effects in his photo's usually look very good. That being said, James of course has a vested interest in seeing LED's being used more. and they will. the halogen mr16 will probably be like a par36 is now, except in 15 years. 15 years ago, as I recall, mr-16's were pretty much the new kid on the block, and the effect was nowhere near as good as a par. but they got better, got better floods, and now 15 years later, it is rare to see folks use pars. In my opinion we are on year 2 of that 15 year arc.

while painting trees with halogen light, it would be a good idea to paint a few with LED to learn how to use that particular brush. I am . while I may not like the LED train, that sucker is coming down the track and I will not be left behind.

elegance_alex
10-24-2010, 10:22 PM
Same here. I'm doing all I can to learn about the LED technology that IS coming. the AOLP will be having an educational seminar on LEDs with top dogs from Kichler, Vista, Phillips-Hadco, and the designer's perspective from Janet Lennox Moyer. I also read and respect all the opinions here. I'm trying some fixtures in my design kit, and I have several LED replacement lamps in a test run in my showroom (AKA my back yard). I also read LEDs magazine. We've designed a few LED fixtures in where color-fade won't make a big difference to the client, and I've done a couple of commercial jobs in all LED. I did do a large oak (about 70') with LED fixtures. No pictures, though. I did the whole tree lighting using the same fixture for the entire canopy, crotch, and trunk uplighting. We're still working the location, so hopefully I'll have photos some time later. I think it's satisfactory.
'

emby
11-07-2010, 12:54 PM
I just wanted to expand this thread so that we can all share our tools for designing.
What LED products have you been impressed with when implementing your designs? Products such as replacement lamps or the all in one LED fixture.
I would love to hear what you were trying to illuminate with some detail.

For example....I have attemted to light a 30 foot river birch tree. This is a two clump tree and I wanted to illuminate the two main clumps going up and highlight the flaking bark at the same time. This will be the brightest part of the compostition.(Level 1) I wanted to then fill the inner and outer canopy branches with a mix of level 2 and level 3 splash of light. I then wanted to add some level 3 at the bottome of the trunk to tie it to the ground.
Because this tree is surrounded by mulch I was able to use stake mounted fixtures along with one tree mounted fixture.
All of them have LED replacement Lamps. In order to illuminate the level 1 trunks I used 2 4000k 15 degree spots with a linear lens and had to play around for a while to get the look. I then used 4 3000k 30degree lamps to achieve the look in the upper canopy. The tree light was a 3000k 45 degree lamp with 2 hex screens.
I am happy with this but not totally satisfied as there is a ton of ambient light from a street lights and everything just needs to be brighter. I have not had any time to try the LED all in one fixture so that is why I am interested in hearing from ALL of you on what tools you have been using on such things as trees, bushes and architectual things.

Many thanks everybody and lets make this a really good informative and teaching thread.

Ken

The Lighting Geek
11-07-2010, 01:50 PM
If you want a picture, do what i do and bring a ladder and a trash can and cover the light. Depending on your jurisdiction, you may be able to get the city to put a glare guard on the street lamp permanently. I see this all the time where the light goes into the home, ie: bedrooms.

The street light, depending on the lamp, will cast funky green or other colors due to the difference in K.

I know this wasn't necessarily on topic but I did it anyway. :waving:

The Lighting Geek
11-07-2010, 02:02 PM
I am not a big fan of mixing Kelvin temps in a job. There is some color issues with trying to get the house lights when using CFG's to match, but it is close.

I think a very good exercise is to take well lights, 60 degree MR16s, or 60 degree kichler all in one fixtures, and try to accomplish everything with that. It taught me a lot about light, how the different lamps project light, using the fringe of the beam to wash, etc. When you use all three and compare you will find slight differences in how they spread light. The same is with retro fit bulbs as well. I learned to embrace the differences and use them to my advantage.

I would not place any of those lamps in the same place if I was comparing them and if I wanted the exact same look when done. They do different things to the light.

I hope this makes sense.

Pro-Scapes
11-07-2010, 02:48 PM
I just wanted to expand this thread so that we can all share our tools for designing.
What LED products have you been impressed with when implementing your designs? Products such as replacement lamps or the all in one LED fixture.
I would love to hear what you were trying to illuminate with some detail.

For example....I have attemted to light a 30 foot river birch tree. This is a two clump tree and I wanted to illuminate the two main clumps going up and highlight the flaking bark at the same time. This will be the brightest part of the compostition.(Level 1) I wanted to then fill the inner and outer canopy branches with a mix of level 2 and level 3 splash of light. I then wanted to add some level 3 at the bottome of the trunk to tie it to the ground.
Because this tree is surrounded by mulch I was able to use stake mounted fixtures along with one tree mounted fixture.
All of them have LED replacement Lamps. In order to illuminate the level 1 trunks I used 2 4000k 15 degree spots with a linear lens and had to play around for a while to get the look. I then used 4 3000k 30degree lamps to achieve the look in the upper canopy. The tree light was a 3000k 45 degree lamp with 2 hex screens.
I am happy with this but not totally satisfied as there is a ton of ambient light from a street lights and everything just needs to be brighter. I have not had any time to try the LED all in one fixture so that is why I am interested in hearing from ALL of you on what tools you have been using on such things as trees, bushes and architectual things.

Many thanks everybody and lets make this a really good informative and teaching thread.

Ken

Did I just read that you used 6 fixtures to do a 30 ft river birch ? I do them on MOST projects as they are very common here. Usually 2 to 3 fixtures if they want it well lit and possibly a downlight if needed or something to highlight on the ground. Where is the potential cost savings now when you have to use twice as many fixtures. How long will it take to recoupe the costs of the added fixtures and installation time let alone the added costs of the LED lamps themselves. Would one not be better to just do the installation with the consideration there will or might be a LED retrofit on the project at a later date ?

On the project i am doing now. The MR16 pathlights will be led powered. No issues there. The Crepes and other trees in front needed FMW lamps due to ambient light situations. We tried 4 different led solutions and none provided the quality or volume we needed.

I agree with not mixing color temps. Often times it is unavoidable when you incorperate the house lights into the scene but I still try to keep everything in check. Nothing wrong with recessed porch lights being a bit warmer and inviting that the color of your landscape lights.

emby
11-07-2010, 10:36 PM
Thanks Tommy and Billy,

This river birch is in my testing area (My yard).
Tommy I totally understand what your saying and I will have to experiment for sure. This will take some time and some $ for sure as I need to experiment with so many different brands of lamps and fixtures.
The two colour temperatures are not that noticeable due to the orange HP sodium glare bomb. I was trying to get the two 15 degree lamps to pop the trunks up but it was not enough such as Billy's situation. So I thought the higher colour temp. would help and it did considering the ambient light.
Billy, I have always followed the rule of less wattage more fixtures when designing. Now I am not saying this is right or wrong but I like to have detail and this allows me lots of it.
Tommy when grazing the outer limbs and leafs are you saying that you would just use a standard beam spread for all fixtures and position them to achieve the desired contrast and look?
Thanks as this type of "LED" conversation is exactly what I am looking for and I am sure others too.

Ken

Pro-Scapes
11-07-2010, 10:43 PM
Thanks Tommy and Billy,

This river birch is in my testing area (My yard).
Tommy I totally understand what your saying and I will have to experiment for sure. This will take some time and some $ for sure as I need to experiment with so many different brands of lamps and fixtures.
The two colour temperatures are not that noticeable due to the orange HP sodium glare bomb. I was trying to get the two 15 degree lamps to pop the trunks up but it was not enough such as Billy's situation. So I thought the higher colour temp. would help and it did considering the ambient light.
Billy, I have always followed the rule of less wattage more fixtures when designing. Now I am not saying this is right or wrong but I like to have detail and this allows me lots of it.
Tommy when grazing the outer limbs and leafs are you saying that you would just use a standard beam spread for all fixtures and position them to achieve the desired contrast and look?
Thanks as this type of "LED" conversation is exactly what I am looking for and I am sure others too.

Ken

Just out of curiosity Ken... can you post a daytime picture of this tree for us ? I think it would be helpful to see how the LED guys and the halogen guys would light it especially the LED guys using mr16 retrofits. I am going to try to find time this week to do it with a mature Crepe Myrtle in my yard since I live in the country and have near zero ambient light. I have a few new LED lamps I am wanting to try out anyways so I am thinking ABT a test trans and 3 bullets so I can swap between the lamps and snap photos without moving the camera or changing settings at all.

Illumicare
11-08-2010, 01:53 AM
If you are using a quality LED lamp then you really do not need to do all of these comparison tests as the output and optics of the LED lamp will replicate the output and optics of the corresponding Halogen lamp. That is the whole point is it not?

If you are using GE Constant Colour Precise or Sylvania Titan Halogen MR16 lamps then choose our 3000K LED MR16 line up. our Spot (15 Degree) = an ESX. Our Flood (45 Degree) = a BAB. We have a Narrow Flood (25 Degree) too.

If you are using a iwasaki, ushio, or many other types of Halogen MR16 lamps then choose our 2700K LED MR16 line up.

I personally spent a lot of time in testing different collimators (lenses) and chip combinations before going into production. That is what happens when you have a results oriented "lighting guy" doing the lamp development. They have to be right or I am not going to be satisfied.

We currently have a new, brighter LED MR16 solution, producing over 350 Lumens and very close to mimicking the light output of a 35W Halogen MR16. The only reason it has not gone into production yet is the lens. Once we have the perfect lens in front of this lamp, producing the right output and beam quality then it will be produced. Taking the necessary time to make these lamps properly can be quite frustrating, no one can attest to that more than I. But be assured that we will not release underperforming LED lamps to market like so many others are doing. Just one reason our customers keep returning and ordering more lamps time after time.

Regards

Pro-Scapes
11-08-2010, 08:53 AM
If you are using a quality LED lamp then you really do not need to do all of these comparison tests as the output and optics of the LED lamp will replicate the output and optics of the corresponding Halogen lamp. That is the whole point is it not?

If you are using GE Constant Colour Precise or Sylvania Titan Halogen MR16 lamps then choose our 3000K LED MR16 line up. our Spot (15 Degree) = an ESX. Our Flood (45 Degree) = a BAB. We have a Narrow Flood (25 Degree) too.

If you are using a iwasaki, ushio, or many other types of Halogen MR16 lamps then choose our 2700K LED MR16 line up.

I personally spent a lot of time in testing different collimators (lenses) and chip combinations before going into production. That is what happens when you have a results oriented "lighting guy" doing the lamp development. They have to be right or I am not going to be satisfied.

We currently have a new, brighter LED MR16 solution, producing over 350 Lumens and very close to mimicking the light output of a 35W Halogen MR16. The only reason it has not gone into production yet is the lens. Once we have the perfect lens in front of this lamp, producing the right output and beam quality then it will be produced. Taking the necessary time to make these lamps properly can be quite frustrating, no one can attest to that more than I. But be assured that we will not release underperforming LED lamps to market like so many others are doing. Just one reason our customers keep returning and ordering more lamps time after time.

Regards

Did you forget you were a contractor too and not just an led reseller ? There is every reason in the world to do testing on our own. If you listened to every supplier selling things without testing on your own you would either have piles of stuff laying around or you would be doing your clients a huge diservice. You Asked several times for samples of different fixtures for testing "up here in Canada"

Now its one thing selecting a specialty fixture from a manufacture you trust. I wouldnt hessitate to use a new CAST deck light if they had one or a new fixture from Gambino (bought the Veranda fixture sight unseen) but something as crucial to your designs as a lamp ??? You must be kidding that you dont need to test them and view them for yourself.

I am happy for you that your LED business is going so well but it is always important to rememeber where we came from to help us on the journey to where we are going.

Sorry if this sounds negative but your last post was something way to close to what many of us here from sales people all the time. "Trust me the kool aid is ok to drink"

David Gretzmier
11-08-2010, 09:24 AM
I would not classify james a reseller. he is not buying so bulbs from china and reselling them. He is designing the heat sinks, circuit boards, lenses, reflecters, and even choosing the coating on the LED diode itself to get the color temperature he wants. maybe a "re-inventor".

And yes, your point, is to test everything and develop trust over time, much like your faith in the product lines you mentioned. I agree. but I still test from time to time even the products I trust.

emby
11-08-2010, 02:58 PM
Billy, James and David,

Thank you for all your great comments. James sorry to put you in a spot but I know exactly what you were trying to get accross. Thank you.
Billy what a great idea to post some before and after pictures!! I will try to dig up an older daytime pic and if not I will take one next weekend. I feel like that is the better way for people to share their design ideas and what products they might use. Please take that picture at your house as well then we can work on two test projects at the same time.
David, what products have you had success with? Have you tried the all in one fixture or replacement lamps?
Recently I seen a LED pathlight by SPJ and I was totally impressed with the light output and the colour temp. It was bang on to that of a halogen lamp. For the life of me I could not tell that it was not a 20 watt halogen.
I am not trying to be a salesman but rather share my experience with you all. I will start to incorporate these into every design as I feel that they are that good. You can also interchange the driver if you would like lower light output.

Ken

Let There Be Light
11-09-2010, 01:11 AM
Folks, Here's a quick pic of a recently completed job. This particular job utilizes Brilliance LED at 3000K and 3 watts-or-20 watt halogen equiv. Quite frankly, in my opinion, a 35 watt halogen or LED equiv is a bit overkill as dark as it is here in the desert southwest.

Cheers,

Steve

Alan B
11-09-2010, 03:49 AM
Steve,

Beautiful and stunning. A nice combination of a great property to work with and a talented designer using the right tools. Love the downlighting onto the pot and subtlety of the lighting.

Sincerely,

Alan

Tomwilllight
11-09-2010, 04:56 PM
I don't have the photo but the is one posted on the web. Directions below:

Start at <http://www.janmoyerdesign.com/index.html> and click on the link to "Landscape Lighting Institute", then click on "click here to see the second Fall Class from 2009" and then click on photo #8.

Look at the last and tallest tree on the left hand side. It is a mature Oak that was lighted exclusively with Kichler's 2nd generation LED luminaires. We all were knocked out... This was a giant surprise and a true revelation... Clearly LED's had arrived.

This photo records the efforts of two groups from the Fall of '09 that were located adjacent to each other. I was the Mentor for Group 1 and our area started just to the right of the Oak. David Brearey Mentored Group 2 and their area started at the Oak and went back beyond the oak.

I imagined that I was feeling like a 19th century becalmed sailor, standing under limp canvas sails while a smoking steamship passed by with no sails hoisted. I think we all knew then that lighting landscapes would never be the same again.

Tom

RLI Electric
11-09-2010, 05:15 PM
Tom, quick fyi, it was group 3. I just spoke with Jan on Thursday at a seminar on LED lighting. She said something that needs to be mentioned again and again. LED light is simply another tool for us to create our projects. It does not mean the death of everything we know and use, it is just another tool. Air conditioning did not kill the ceiling fan nor will LED completely kill halogen. If you want to try it out and are afraid, ask your client if they are willing to be an early adopter. I have done this in the past and they went for it. I now use LED mixed with halogen and do not squirm in the least bit. I'll see if I can attach a shot of a project I just did. All LED minus the path lights. Yes, some areas look hotter than others but I am still learning the camera. You guys have seen enough of this to look past the photography mishaps but you can get the general idea.

emby
11-09-2010, 06:21 PM
All of you are awsome and I want to thank each and every one of you for contributing and sharing your experiences. KEEP THEM COMING.

I have a few questions for some of you and will be on later this evening. The kiddies are calling me. :)

Ken

Tomwilllight
11-09-2010, 07:07 PM
Bob,

Thanks for the FYI. My apologies for goofing the proper credit.

Jan is totally right. LEDs are just a new tool for landscape lighting designers. We all have electric lighting but nothing beats candles for getting the mood right. It's a matter of the right tool for the right job. And we need to learn how to use the new tools. I may have gone overboard with my eloquence in the last post.

Things have been a little slow this first year in Portland so I decided to light my garden with a mix of LEDs and MRs and... I was surprised... I liked it.

Mostly I used Auroralight down lights (TITAN & KENTIA) with an Aurora wall mounted area light (CASCADE) and a pathlight (CENTINELA). For all of them, I ordered the 2900 K LEDs. They warrant their LEDs for 60 Months. 5 years. I've always admired the fit and finish of their product and decided to find out how they work in the landscape.

In addition, I also used some retrofit LEDs and MR6s just to see how they all would blend together.

It worked, the LEDs and the MRs all blended well. I think the subtle differences of color temp is lost in a living landscape. A smooth white wall may make it easy to see the difference between 2900K and 3200K, but Douglas Fir needles don't.

The other, maybe even more interesting, thing I did was to install my entire pathlight collection. Of course, I checked them all out when the samples came in but have never set-up a shoot-out. That was instructive... The differences of performance are even more striking than I thought they would be... Lots of learning for me. I learned that most of what I have for path/area light is junk. Maybe thats why I got the samples in the first place.

Tom

I still owe you coffee.

emby
11-09-2010, 10:57 PM
Ok Kiddies are asleep finally.

Steve,
Great looking design. Thanks for sharing. Being that they are all LED's did you have to incorporate any filters such as screens lenses etc?
And if you don't mind me asking what fixtures have you used out there in the dessert?
Thanks Steve

Bob,
Thanks for sharing Jan's comments as those always go along way. Same question for you with your picture...What fixtures along the house and did you use any screens etc?

Tom,
Thank you for sharing as always :). Your last post is exactly what I am hoping everybody will do to share their experiences with different products.

Billy,
I cannot locate my old picture of my house with the river birch so this weekend I will get out there and get a day shot and post it.

Thank you everybody but please keep them coming and this includes all you lurkers out there.

Ken

RLI Electric
11-09-2010, 11:04 PM
Ken
FX MU's with a long shroud, no screens on the house, hex louvers on the cherry trees. CAST area pathlight at center of 2 large windows to get to the top of the holly bushes.
CAST small china hats path lights, these are the only halogen on the job. Total 5.

Let There Be Light
11-09-2010, 11:35 PM
Hey Ken,
No filters, but we will use louvers and lens' such as silver green and moon blue where appropriate and just good placement. 15, 35 or 60 degree lamps. (design with the lamp first) We use all high quality fixtures from several manufacturers, brass and copper only. We offer several styles, then client chooses which style they like. Aluminum here doesn't hold up because of acidic dirt, although we enjoy replacing the aluminum. :))

Steve

nikster78
11-11-2010, 08:25 PM
get out of the sand box

emby
11-12-2010, 02:06 PM
Nikster,

If playing in the sand box is not your cup of tea then I suggest you get out and get a life.
Have a great day Nik.

nikster78
11-12-2010, 05:15 PM
Lol...emby drinks the kool-aide too.... it never fails.

emby
11-12-2010, 05:30 PM
Nikster I always have a smile on my face and my intention was not to be nasty because of the Kool Aid.
Just kidding around brother. :)

nikster78
11-12-2010, 06:30 PM
:)Thanks Emby...Just testing the waters. :walking: