PDA

View Full Version : The Perfect LED


emby
10-24-2010, 04:33 PM
I am hoping by using this forum and this particular thread that the designer's and installers can provide critical information to the manufacturers for future research and development.
Please no sales pitching from any of our great sponsors. I would encourage our sponsors to participate from an installer/ designer's perspective only.

I will start off describing what I would like to see in my paint brush can and hopefully everybody else will follow.

Up-lighting and Down-lighting

1. Standardization of LED chips. Lets not invent the wheel here. Our current measurement of light for halogens is perfect. Why do we need to re-invent the wheel with LED's. Lumen's, center beam power, candle power, etc. lets just pick one and that's that.

2. VNSP, NSP, SP, FL, WFL, VWFL, 20,30,40,50,60,70 watts in EQUIVALENT light output as MR16's.... Put them side by side and hands down same colour temperature and same light output period. LED's are here to save energy thats it nothing more.

3. When aiming at night I would rather change lenses or LED lamps or drivers but I do not want to be changing the whole fixture out to achieve the desired design. Who wants to dig up the stake, cut wires, etc. when trying to aim and set for final installation.

I am going to stop there and let somebody else take over. Maybe we should max. it out to three each.

Have at it and lets have fun learning how to build the best LED for landscape lighting. :)

Ken

emby
10-24-2010, 04:55 PM
Just one more. Sorry I can't help myself :)

3 1/2. Why not develop LED's to replace are short life lamps such as the 10 watt MR 16 or MR-8 and MR-11's.

steveparrott
10-24-2010, 05:00 PM
Ken,

Good post, but right now the thing that bothers me most about LED's is that these chips are all produced in Asia. Considering the huge profit that will be made in the next many years, and the fact that the majority of those dollars and jobs will go to Asia. . .

The USA really missed the boat on LED's. This is a type of technology that should have begun here. We should have been world leaders in this. That would have been really really helpful!

Just venting! :usflag:

emby
10-24-2010, 05:02 PM
Agreed Steve...but don't you mean in Canada !! :) :)

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
10-24-2010, 05:04 PM
I will start off describing what I would like to see in my paint brush can and hopefully everybody else will follow.

Up-lighting and Down-lighting Ok, USE LED Lamps in your existing fav. fixtures for both Up-Lighting and Down-Lighting. I have seen some LED fixtures for uplighting, but nothing as of yet that is specifically designed for high performance down lighting.

1. Standardization of LED chips. Lets not invent the wheel here. Our current measurement of light for halogens is perfect. Why do we need to re-invent the wheel with LED's. Lumen's, center beam power, candle power, etc. lets just pick one and that's that. The photometrics and spectra-analysis of LEDs is standardized. Lumens have become the standard measure of light output from more than just LED lamps. Go to any store and look at lamp packaging, all of the name brands now list lumens output. As for standarization, it hasn't existed in the past between manufacturers. Just compare the GE and Sylvania Halogen MR16 category. One uses CBCP and the other measures FC/Lux ! At least you can now compare the total light output of LED vs LED and even LED vs Incandescent. Standardized measurement and labelling is already here. http://www.lightingfacts.com

2. VNSP, NSP, SP, FL, WFL, VWFL, 20,30,40,50,60,70 watts in EQUIVALENT light output as MR16's.... Put them side by side and hands down same colour temperature and same light output period. LED's are here to save energy thats it nothing more. Ok first they do more than save energy, they also offer a MUCH longer service life. Most of the savings from using LED Lamps come from the longer service life.

As for beam spreads, that is fairly easy. Just show a strong market for each of those beam spreads and they can and will be built. Do me a favour... Take each of the beam spreads and tell me out of 100 lamps you use, how many are:

VNSP - 8 Degrees
NSP - 12 Degrees
SP - 15 Degress
NFL - 25-30 Degrees
FL - 40 Degrees
VWFL - 60 Degress

Now extrapolate that across the entire market and you might see why finding some of these is difficult right now. I would love to see the roll out schedule for all of the different beam spreads in Halogen MR16s. I will bet you that all of those were not available out of the box.

Now we can talk about intensity equivalents. You can currently get LED MR16s that are equivalent to 10W and 20W Halogen MR16s. 35W equivalents are right around the corner. Given the current technology and the size constraints of the MR16 form, I really do not think it is feasible to make a 42Wir, 50W or 75W equivalent in LED. (I have never seen a 30w, 60w or 70w Halogen MR16) Again, how often do you use a 50W or brighter Halogen MR16 in landscape lighting or even interior residential. ( the 50W is a suckers bet as it uses 30% more power than a 35W and only produces some 12% more light {depending on manu})

3. When aiming at night I would rather change lenses or LED lamps or drivers but I do not want to be changing the whole fixture out to achieve the desired design. Who wants to dig up the stake, cut wires, etc. when trying to aim and set for final installation. Agreed, 100%

I am going to stop there and let somebody else take over. Maybe we should max. it out to three each.

Have at it and lets have fun learning how to build the best LED for landscape lighting. :)

Ken

Take the above from my design / build / contractor's experience. I have learned a thing or two about this over the past 4 years or so...

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
10-24-2010, 05:13 PM
Just one more. Sorry I can't help myself :)

3 1/2. Why not develop LED's to replace are short life lamps such as the 10 watt MR 16 or MR-8 and MR-11's.

Making a 10w Equivalent LED MR16 is a cinch. There are TONS of them on the market already (3 x 1w) ( not that I have found any that are moisture proofed yet, so watch where you install them)

As for MR11, I have seen a some LED MR11 versions but the output was lame. I don't think you will see any LED MR8 anytime soon. Miniaturizing all of the circuitry and managing the heat is the issue here. I don't think the money required to miniaturize all of the components would be returned and I dont think anybody is going to spend $100 to buy an LED MR11 lamp. Same story for the MR8. There is just not enough demand for these to justify the development costs.

emby
10-24-2010, 06:22 PM
James,

Thank you that was very helpful but you did not provide your three suggestions as a contractor ::))
Oh and by the way that link is packed with a great amount of info for apprentices like me. Thanks.

Ken

Illumicare
10-24-2010, 06:55 PM
Ok, let me see. My three suggestions / ideas that would contribute to "The Perfect LED" are

1: Disclosure of full specifications. I think it would be best if manufacturers of LED lamps, fixtures and components be required to provide their full testing reports, specifications, photometrics and spectra-analysis reports. I support the Lighting Facts program but am not sure it goes far enough in providing the pertinent info for wise LED choices. An expanded and mandatory program would force most of the 'junk' that is out there into the waste bin.

2: Return-ability and Recycling. I think that the manufacturers of sealed LED fixtures, and even LED lamps (why not?) should have to implement recycling and return procedures that would see the fixtures and components properly broken down and recycled.

3: invention and innovation in the realm of non-corrosive components and circuits. Wouldn't it be cool if everyone used silver solder, and all the metal components of electronic devices, including pins, housings, heat sinks and the IC devices themselves were entirely non-corrosive? :weightlifter:

Regards

wbaptist
10-25-2010, 12:52 PM
In my testing our LED help up great to water. I placed the LED in a cup of water and placed it in the freezer. I removed the paper cup and fired it up. I ran it until the ice melted away and then dropped the lamp into a fixture and it is still working. Test performed 9-15-10

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q304/rusty51501978/Test11.jpg

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q304/rusty51501978/Test111.jpg

Kiril
10-25-2010, 01:38 PM
Has anyone tried the products from array lighting? They have a variety of lamps available.

http://www.arraylighting.com/products/

sprinklerchris
10-26-2010, 05:11 PM
In my testing our LED help up great to water. I placed the LED in a cup of water and placed it in the freezer. I removed the paper cup and fired it up. I ran it until the ice melted away and then dropped the lamp into a fixture and it is still working. Test performed 9-15-10

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q304/rusty51501978/Test11.jpg

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q304/rusty51501978/Test111.jpg

I suppose it takes awhile for the corrosion to kill the circuit board. Is this a UL test?

wbaptist
10-26-2010, 05:40 PM
No, this is not a UL test.

Prolightscaper
10-26-2010, 08:33 PM
In my testing our LED help up great to water. I placed the LED in a cup of water and placed it in the freezer. I removed the paper cup and fired it up. I ran it until the ice melted away and then dropped the lamp into a fixture and it is still working. Test performed 9-15-10

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q304/rusty51501978/Test11.jpg

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q304/rusty51501978/Test111.jpg

I don't quite understand the purpose of this test.

What scenario could anyone imagine where an MR-16 LED would be incased in a block of ice?

Nate stated on his blog a month or so ago that he would never recommend or install another system unless it was 24 volt halogen.

So why the LED?

David Gretzmier
10-28-2010, 12:05 AM
trans looks nice. gotta love torture testing...

Tomwilllight
11-05-2010, 03:26 PM
You might want to check out <http://www1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/ssl/caliper.html> for straight information about LED products.

A service paid for by your Federal tax dollars and it is free.