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Young Bros
10-28-2010, 12:40 PM
The horrible weather this year has us farther behind than any other season. So we are still on late summer (weed control apps). Looks like high 20's tonight (1st big frost), soil temps 45, highs in the 50's lows in the 30's for the next week. We have been using T-Zone (ester based 4-way). How late do the weeds grow? How late do you apply weed control effectively? Do you guys have luck with weakening the weed before winter, then it never wakes up in spring?

rcreech
10-28-2010, 01:12 PM
As long as the plant tissue is green you are good to go. I am in OH and I could easily spray another 2-3 weeks and probably be fine (around middle of Nov or even a little after). Every year is so different that it is hard to say by a calendar.

After several hard frosts, leaves will begin to turn purple and/or black and then that is a little too late.

Right now is the best time of the year to control broadleaf weeds!

RigglePLC
10-28-2010, 08:44 PM
Works slow when its cold. Except the products like Quicksilver or Dismiss, or Octane--they still work fast--but they are mainly for young annual weeds--nearly useless for perennial.
Maybe the Octane salesman will comment...

LawnoftheMonth
10-28-2010, 10:17 PM
i treat weeds effectively all year 'round.

humble1
10-28-2010, 10:27 PM
having great trouble with weed control now that a lot of the leaves are falling, I have had to skip over a few accounts because of leaf cover. Now I am just trying to get the fall fert down on my major accounts and skipping over a lot of the smaller ones. Have to keep the bread and butter accounts happy.

FdLLawnMan
10-31-2010, 12:07 PM
I have sprayed weeds until the soil temperature reach's 35 degrees with great success. The weeds won't die this fall but they do not overwinter and the lawn is clean in the spring. I also use amine based products and have no problem. Photosynthesis is very slow but it is still occurring so the plant is taking the herbicide up and trans-locating it, albeit very slowly.

DA Quality Lawn & YS
11-01-2010, 01:02 AM
I was gonna agree....as long as those weeds haven't taken on the 'purple' tint of dormancy, spray em. They won't be back next year:)

lawn king
11-01-2010, 06:11 AM
Definite drop off in control here in S E mass. We have had a couple of frosts. Im going to spray out the solution remaining in my ride on and carry a backpack for a week or two.

cgaengineer
11-01-2010, 08:17 AM
Works slow when its cold. Except the products like Quicksilver or Dismiss, or Octane--they still work fast--but they are mainly for young annual weeds--nearly useless for perennial.
Maybe the Octane salesman will comment...

I have yet to see a better kill using Octane vs no additive. I used it at a rate of 1 oz per acre.

Young Bros
11-01-2010, 01:17 PM
We are still using T-Zone, should be for another week or two. Wish I could spray ester all year long.

greenskeeper44
11-01-2010, 05:58 PM
next season we will be using imprelis from dupont which you can use all year no matter the temps and no matter if it rains. Its way better than t-zone and cheaper per acre

cgaengineer
11-01-2010, 07:06 PM
next season we will be using imprelis from dupont which you can use all year no matter the temps and no matter if it rains. Its way better than t-zone and cheaper per acre

This sounds like a silver bullet...about to do some research.

Young Bros
11-02-2010, 10:34 AM
next season we will be using imprelis from dupont which you can use all year no matter the temps and no matter if it rains. Its way better than t-zone and cheaper per acre

So its water based? I have found oil based works better in cold temps. T-Zone is great besides the price. What is in imprelis?

DA Quality Lawn & YS
11-02-2010, 12:51 PM
Young, you must have a lot of difficult-to-control broadleafs to use ester so much.
I use amine almost always, except for spot spray with TZone, and got good control this season with my PG.

greenskeeper44
11-02-2010, 06:43 PM
im not sure what it is in it is a new type of chemistry that is both foliar and root abosrbed........i was at the gie show and talked to the dupont rep he and the label say you can spray at any temperatures, rainfast instantly, 1 time kill on violets and ground ivy, (tzone has been 2 or 3 for me) and you can spray at any point of seeding. They are even packaging it with a fertilizer so you can spread it and it works just as well as the liquid since the product is both foliar and root absorbed. It also has a 60-90 day residual in the soil so anything that germinates in that time period will absorb the herbicide. Its going to be game changer for spring seedings and I am switching to it for all my broadleaf weed applications .

http://www2.dupont.com/Professional_Products/en_US/assets/downloads/pdfs/H65717.pdf

this is the label

cgaengineer
11-02-2010, 06:46 PM
That stuff sounds good...
Posted via Mobile Device

Young Bros
11-02-2010, 07:22 PM
That stuff does sound good. We have a lot of violets (T-Zone is the only thing I have found to control them so far), creeping charlie, creeping bellflower, & arrowhead. Although I may be calling the same plant creeping bellflower & arrowhead.

pieperlc
11-02-2010, 09:02 PM
Definitely going to look hard at imprelis next year. The more I hear and read the more I like it. Pricey is an understatement but cost per acre isn't bad especially if it delivers on it's promise.
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starry night
11-02-2010, 09:16 PM
I notice that the label says do not use grass clippings for compost if the Imprellis has been applied.

cgaengineer
11-02-2010, 09:30 PM
I notice that the label says do not use grass clippings for compost if the Imprellis has been applied.

Image says the same thing if I recall.
Posted via Mobile Device

lawn king
11-03-2010, 09:20 AM
25 degrees here this morning, bwc is just about a done deal for us.

cgaengineer
11-03-2010, 09:22 AM
Just looked at the label for Imprelis...bermuda is not on the label.

Young Bros
11-03-2010, 10:10 AM
Low of 31 high of 56 air temps. Soil temps are 34 & 53. Still enough apps to spray w/c at least the rest of the week.

Young Bros
11-03-2010, 06:33 PM
I just talked to my supplier. Imprelis just got legalized in Iowa. Both granular & liquid you have to be careful around landscaping, trees, & shrubs (their roots too). You have to tell the customer to leave clippings on the lawn. It sounds great, but I wonder if it would be best to use on comercial properties.

CHARLES CUE
11-03-2010, 10:18 PM
We been having temp around 24 deg lots of frost. Had a lime job to do on Tues got there at 11 am had to wait till 12 to start because of the frost still on the yard. Man that would relay slow you down if you are still doing apps. Spread the lime and sprayed some violets by then it was getting late not much of a day. next week will be shorter with time change.

Charles Cue

jasontimm
11-04-2010, 10:46 PM
how warm can it be to safely spray ester? my sales guy was trying to talk me into spiking my three way with an ester product, but he was dancing around the temp. question.

Young Bros
11-04-2010, 11:55 PM
I don't spray ester when it hits 70 degrees. If there is no wind & high humidity it can volatilize. Here we use it in April & October. We should be done with w/c this week. High tomorrow only 47, but the next 3 days the high is 60. :)

cgaengineer
11-05-2010, 12:30 AM
how warm can it be to safely spray ester? my sales guy was trying to talk me into spiking my three way with an ester product, but he was dancing around the temp. question.

Some people are comfortable spraying at temps up to 85, the label says 70. I sprayed a lawn last season in early spring and the temps hit the 80's and I became worried...set the lawn back about 2 weeks. The good thing was it was weed free all summer except for crabgrass. I suggest experimenting with lower label rates at temps of 70 and above.. I am still learning so maybe someone with more experience will chime in.

That being said, I have yet to see a quicker kill with any other product....it decimated the weeds.
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RigglePLC
11-05-2010, 10:46 AM
In years past I sprayed ester often in hot weather (over 85 for us), no problem. I also tested ester against amine for spurge--side by side. No difference in results. And customers hate the odor--they think it is something really strong. dangerous.

Young Bros
11-05-2010, 08:21 PM
In years past I sprayed ester often in hot weather (over 85 for us), no problem. I also tested ester against amine for spurge--side by side. No difference in results. And customers hate the odor--they think it is something really strong. dangerous.

We use Surge in the summer, still has an odor. We add LI700 to our tanks. It is an anti-foam, drift reducer, wax penatrent, & lowers the pH of our water. It stinks worse than the weed controls. Some customers do think it is dangerous cause of smell, I hope others think it works since it stinks....lol

:usflag:

RodneyK
11-06-2010, 09:41 AM
http://www.agry.purdue.edu/turf/tips/2010/10182010_broadleafweeds.html

Young Bros
11-06-2010, 10:39 AM
That was awesome....thanks Rodney.

NattyLawn
11-06-2010, 12:21 PM
We use Surge in the summer, still has an odor. We add LI700 to our tanks. It is an anti-foam, drift reducer, wax penatrent, & lowers the pH of our water. It stinks worse than the weed controls. Some customers do think it is dangerous cause of smell, I hope others think it works since it stinks....lol

:usflag:

I think it was Americanlawn that posted Liberate is similiar to LI700 but with less odor. I had a neighbor of a customer complain about LI700 this past spring.

Young Bros
11-06-2010, 05:59 PM
I think it was Americanlawn that posted Liberate is similiar to LI700 but with less odor. I had a neighbor of a customer complain about LI700 this past spring.

We used liberate, it does not lower the high pH of our water though. It does stink less.

RigglePLC
11-06-2010, 11:27 PM
Imprelis --more data. Amazing.
https://ilca.net/education/Lawn_Care/Presentations/Steward.pdf

Can be applied to new seed.
Rainfast immediately.
Use 3 ounces per acre, (about 3 ml per 1000 sqft).
Minimal PPE required.
Not for Bermuda, nor St Auggy--but OK on Zoysia, bahia and centipede.
Has anybody had a chance to try it?

cgaengineer
11-07-2010, 09:20 AM
Imprelis --more data. Amazing.
https://ilca.net/education/Lawn_Care/Presentations/Steward.pdf

Can be applied to new seed.
Rainfast immediately.
Use 3 ounces per acre, (about 3 ml per 1000 sqft).
Minimal PPE required.
Not for Bermuda, nor St Auggy--but OK on Zoysia, bahia and centipede.
Has anybody had a chance to try it?

It sounds like a great product, but since its not labeled for bermuda its not going to ever be used by me...I sure wish it was labeled for bermuda...which is just about all that is around here.
Posted via Mobile Device

NattyLawn
11-07-2010, 10:12 AM
Imprelis --more data. Amazing.
https://ilca.net/education/Lawn_Care/Presentations/Steward.pdf

Can be applied to new seed.
Rainfast immediately.
Use 3 ounces per acre, (about 3 ml per 1000 sqft).
Minimal PPE required.
Not for Bermuda, nor St Auggy--but OK on Zoysia, bahia and centipede.
Has anybody had a chance to try it?

From what I read, can Imprelis be used season long?

My quote from my supplier is $900 a gallon. I think that's $32 an acre. Not bad. Just blew a good amount on Tenacity though.

rcreech
11-07-2010, 11:50 AM
http://www.agry.purdue.edu/turf/tips/2010/10182010_broadleafweeds.html

Very good piece Rodney!

Thanks!

I think people with the first name of Rodney are very smart and pretty cool.
:)


Thanks again,
Rodney Creech

cgaengineer
11-07-2010, 11:59 AM
Very good piece Rodney!

Thanks!

I think people with the first name of Rodney are very smart and pretty cool.
:)


Thanks again,
Rodney Creech

You could be a little biased too...:)
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Young Bros
11-07-2010, 12:04 PM
The only thing I could find for ISU is old, & on 2-4-D only on thistles:

http://www.weeds.iastate.edu/mgmt/qtr99-1/frost.htm

Here is a good article from Nebraska:

http://extensionhorticulture.unl.edu/Articles/SJB/FallWeedControl.shtml

rcreech
11-07-2010, 12:33 PM
You could be a little biased too...:)
Posted via Mobile Device

Maybe just a lil!

I don't think I would want to take a vote on it anyway! :laugh:

CHARLES CUE
11-07-2010, 07:54 PM
From what I read, can Imprelis be used season long?

My quote from my supplier is $900 a gallon. I think that's $32 an acre. Not bad. Just blew a good amount on Tenacity though.

How do you figure 32 dollars a acre is not bad. You could do a year and a half worth of of blanket apps on a acre for that.

Now if you could kill all the violets in a yard with one app than you might have some thing. But not for general weed control.

Charles Cue

cgaengineer
11-07-2010, 08:55 PM
How do you figure 32 dollars a acre is not bad. You could do a year and a half worth of of blanket apps on a acre for that.

Now if you could kill all the violets in a yard with one app than you might have some thing. But not for general weed control.

Charles Cue

I can buy a gallon of 3 way for $32!!
Posted via Mobile Device

CHARLES CUE
11-07-2010, 09:05 PM
I can buy a gallon of 3 way for $32!!
Posted via Mobile Device

That's what im saying i can buy a 2.5 gal of 3 way for $50 that will do 5 acres at the high rate or 6.7 at low rate and that takes care of most things.

Charles Cue

Young Bros
11-07-2010, 09:07 PM
Not all companies choose to go the cheap way.

cgaengineer
11-07-2010, 09:28 PM
Not all companies choose to go the cheap way.

I wouldn't consider a 3way that kills 99% of weeds a cheap way, I would say that if its inexpensive and its effective why would anyone want to use anything else?
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Young Bros
11-07-2010, 09:42 PM
I wouldn't consider a 3way that kills 99% of weeds a cheap way, I would say that if its inexpensive and its effective why would anyone want to use anything else?
Posted via Mobile Device

99 %, that is a joke. Violets & Creeping Bellflower are two, I don't spray 200 different weeds. Violets laugh at 3-way. So that is not 99%. I would not consider it very effective on clover.

cgaengineer
11-07-2010, 09:48 PM
99 %, that is a joke. Violets & Creeping Bellflower are two, I don't spray 200 different weeds. Violets laugh at 3-way. So that is not 99%. I would not consider it very effective on clover.

Ok, even if it was 80% effective its still way more economical even if you have to spike it to kill tougher weeds.
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CHARLES CUE
11-07-2010, 10:06 PM
99 %, that is a joke. Violets & Creeping Bellflower are two, I don't spray 200 different weeds. Violets laugh at 3-way. So that is not 99%. I would not consider it very effective on clover.

I don't think it's a joke. I would say that 3 Way works very well i never have a problem with clover. I sprayed 11 acres full of clover this summer with triplet and in a months time you would hard pressed to find a piece of clover in though 11 acres.

Now i would agree violets are a different story.

I have used speed zone tzone and Q 4 and the only difference i have seen in weed control is in my pocket. But to each his Owen.

I don't spray 200 different kind of weeds just the 30 or so that grow in yards.

Charles Cue

rcreech
11-07-2010, 10:20 PM
What is the weed population?
That is how u select what product to use.

If 95% of the weed population is the normal perennials then I CAN get a 90-95% kill.
If the lawn had a lot of Violets then I will not get as good of kill by % but that is because I didn't use the correct product

Threeway is a great product and although priced reasonably it isn't cheap

U just have to pick the right product for the job.
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cgaengineer
11-07-2010, 10:29 PM
I'm getting 95% or better kill in the lawns I spray with 3way. I would have to say the other 5% are ones I missed.
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NattyLawn
11-07-2010, 11:08 PM
I can buy a gallon of 3 way for $32!!
Posted via Mobile Device

You guys need to look at cost per k before making it like it's an outrageous price. Some people will pay more if it's more safe and effective. My cost per k on an organic herbicide is over 12 bucks per k.

Just another tool in the toolbox.

cgaengineer
11-07-2010, 11:34 PM
You guys need to look at cost per k before making it like it's an outrageous price. Some people will pay more if it's more safe and effective. My cost per k on an organic herbicide is over 12 bucks per k.

Just another tool in the toolbox.

I don't charge my customers $12 per k even after labor and materials....not sure you could compete around here at those prices.
Posted via Mobile Device

NattyLawn
11-08-2010, 12:17 AM
I don't charge my customers $12 per k even after labor and materials....not sure you could compete around here at those prices.
Posted via Mobile Device

I'm not trying to compete in GA. Just take a look at the numbers. 3 way at the high rate is 1.5 oz per gallon, and your gallon will treat 2 acres. $50 x 14 to treat the 28 acres is $700 vs the $900 for the Imprelis. I'm not good at math, but you would need to charge and additional $7 per acres acre for possible better control, and a product that is more "friendly". Like I said, another tool in the toolbox. I don't go out there to compete on price with the Trugreens and other low cost/low service type companies. A lot of you on this board do, and that's your business.

cgaengineer
11-08-2010, 12:21 AM
You also forget the point is moot, its not labeled for bermuda anyway.
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Young Bros
11-08-2010, 09:26 AM
You also forget the point is moot, its not labeled for bermuda anyway.
Posted via Mobile Device

The point is we spray bluegrass, ryegrass, & fine fescue, which it is labelled for. The debate is wether the imprelis is worth the extra vs. 3-way. We only use 4-ways, so the price is not a concern for us. We use the more expensive weed control because we dont want to be a poor man's tg. You get what you pay for. We have way less service calls with 4-ways than 3-ways. The 4-ways are also rain fast quicker, another thing i like about imprelis. I have been to GA, it is a different world down there, so to each his own.
:drinkup:

cgaengineer
11-09-2010, 07:22 AM
What do you mean its a different world down here?
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rcreech
11-09-2010, 08:25 AM
Moral of the story...use the most economical products to get the job done!

It is that simple guys!

Some people buy trucks with power locks and windows and some buy trucks with manual locks and windows.

Just like some people buy 3-Way and mix Quick Silver and some buy it premixed and pay a premium.

There is really nothing to debate here IMO.

This is where you can MANAGE your business and even use different products on different lawns if needed. There is no cookie cutter approach here!

As far as saying that 3-WAY is cheap...that is bull crap! I go through over 500 gallons a year of Three Way and I don't have hardly any call backs at all. And you don't even want to know what I am paying for it! :)

I WILL use any product if I need it and I don't care what it costs as it will be built into the price of the job.

If you are looking at the price per gallon and not the cost/k or cost/ac...then you don't have a clue IMO!

OFF MY SOAP BOX NOW!

cgaengineer
11-09-2010, 08:27 AM
And 3way works for me as well, and every other Tom, Dick and Harry. Ric says all you need for bermuda is MSMA and 3way.:)
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Khowell0
11-09-2010, 01:36 PM
Do you make your own fertilizer?

cgaengineer
11-09-2010, 01:47 PM
Do you make your own fertilizer?

Who me? No. I was talking about herbicides (this thread is about herbs, not ferts).
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MnLefty
11-09-2010, 06:06 PM
I'm not trying to compete in GA. Just take a look at the numbers. 3 way at the high rate is 1.5 oz per gallon, and your gallon will treat 2 acres. $50 x 14 to treat the 28 acres is $700 vs the $900 for the Imprelis. I'm not good at math, but you would need to charge and additional $7 per acres acre for possible better control, and a product that is more "friendly". Like I said, another tool in the toolbox. I don't go out there to compete on price with the Trugreens and other low cost/low service type companies. A lot of you on this board do, and that's your business.

The only thing wrong here is that most guys can get their 3-ways for $22-27/gallon depending on brand and supplier, not $50 like you have shown. Guys like Rodney who use 500 gallons a year... he won't say but based on my former life as a salesman I would probably guess that he's paying around or under $18/gallon.

That's not to say Imprelis doesn't have its place. I will be trying some just to see what it can do. Being able to use at any time around seeding, its longevity in the soil, rainfast immediately... If I can spray it early with my crab pre-m and have the Imprelis act as a pre-m and actually prevent a spring flush of dandi's and other, that might be worth $32/A in my situation.

NattyLawn
11-09-2010, 08:31 PM
The only thing wrong here is that most guys can get their 3-ways for $22-27/gallon depending on brand and supplier, not $50 like you have shown. Guys like Rodney who use 500 gallons a year... he won't say but based on my former life as a salesman I would probably guess that he's paying around or under $18/gallon.

That's not to say Imprelis doesn't have its place. I will be trying some just to see what it can do. Being able to use at any time around seeding, its longevity in the soil, rainfast immediately... If I can spray it early with my crab pre-m and have the Imprelis act as a pre-m and actually prevent a spring flush of dandi's and other, that might be worth $32/A in my situation.

The $50 is what cgaengineer said he paid per gallon.

I agree, this material has its place.

cgaengineer
11-09-2010, 09:00 PM
I can buy a gallon of 3 way for $32!!
Posted via Mobile Device

Ah...no I didn't.
Posted via Mobile Device

CHARLES CUE
11-09-2010, 10:31 PM
Ah...no I didn't.
Posted via Mobile Device

I stated that i paid $50 for a 2.5 gal that's 10 a acre for 3 way.

I to would use in some places but $32 a acre is to much for every lawn. That would add $22 more to my cost a acre. If you did 100 acres a round thats $2200.

Any one what to split a gal

Charles Cue

cgaengineer
11-09-2010, 10:32 PM
Any one what to split a gal

Charles Cue

No!
Posted via Mobile Device

CHARLES CUE
11-09-2010, 10:39 PM
No!
Posted via Mobile Device

Didn't think you would !

cgaengineer
11-09-2010, 11:56 PM
Didn't think you would !

Heck no, not when CHEAP 3way is working just fine. Why should I pay more for the same end result?
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pieperlc
11-10-2010, 08:41 AM
Don't quote me on this, but I thought my supplier told me the price was in the mid-$700/gallon. That could be a game changer for the skeptics, but he told me about it over the phone and I may not be remembering correctly.

jasontimm
11-10-2010, 09:36 PM
My supplier just emailed me the price, $900.00 dollars /gal or $1400.00 dollars for 2.5 gal, buying 2.5 gal is a big savings!!

CHARLES CUE
11-10-2010, 09:43 PM
My supplier just emailed me the price, $900.00 dollars /gal or $1400.00 dollars for 2.5 gal, buying 2.5 gal is a big savings!!

That's a good chunk of change. They should put that stuff in a 8oz bottle like Quicksilver.

Charles Cue

cgaengineer
11-10-2010, 10:38 PM
My supplier just emailed me the price, $900.00 dollars /gal or $1400.00 dollars for 2.5 gal, buying 2.5 gal is a big savings!!

I don't have $900 in all the chems I have in stock!!
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Chilehead
11-10-2010, 11:14 PM
I generally use an ester-based 3-way with a surfactant in the fall/winter.

cgaengineer
11-11-2010, 12:06 AM
I generally use an ester-based 3-way with a surfactant in the fall/winter.

Do you use MSO?
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jasontimm
11-11-2010, 09:21 AM
That's a good chunk of change. They should put that stuff in a 8oz bottle like Quicksilver.

Charles Cue

I was reading about it, they said they were going to sell it in 4.5 oz. bottles.

jasontimm
11-11-2010, 09:30 AM
I don't have $900 in all the chems I have in stock!!
Posted via Mobile Device


I do, only because i buy everything by bulk, i can see this price as being very steep, especially if you have been buying 3-way, its a big jump, however i have always used Momentum FX2, which cost me aprx. $20.83/ac, now imprelis if purchased in the 2.5 gal. would cost me $22.54 /ac.

I was not going to use FX2 this coming year because my supplier pulled stakes and moved 2 hours away, so i was planning on using 3-way spiked with quick silver, but i have yet to push the pencil on that cost per ac.

point being..every situation is different.

Chilehead
11-11-2010, 10:26 AM
Do you use MSO?
Posted via Mobile Device

Lesco brand 3-way with Lesco Spreader/sticker.

FdLLawnMan
11-11-2010, 10:52 PM
Imprelis is more expensive than 3-way but it does have some very importan advantages that help offset the cost. The weed will absorb it through the leaves and roots which I believe will give it some residual. It will help get those weeds that you missed because they were to small or the grass was to long. The amount of ai used is much less than we are used to so less to carry around and handle. The label carries a caution rating instead of a danger so it is safer to use. It is rain-fast immediately which in some years could be a big help. I plan on using it on my late spring/early summer blanket application. It is another tool in the toolbox that I believe shows a lot of promise.

rcreech
11-12-2010, 08:06 AM
Imprelis is more expensive than 3-way but it does have some very importan advantages that help offset the cost. The weed will absorb it through the leaves and roots which I believe will give it some residual. It will help get those weeds that you missed because they were to small or the grass was to long. The amount of ai used is much less than we are used to so less to carry around and handle. The label carries a caution rating instead of a danger so it is safer to use. It is rain-fast immediately which in some years could be a big help. I plan on using it on my late spring/early summer blanket application. It is another tool in the toolbox that I believe shows a lot of promise.

Excellent post Mike!