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Young Bros
10-28-2010, 05:20 PM
Due to the rain/wind this year, we did not get all of our fall core/seedings done. I was thinking of trying dormant seeding this year in November. Have you had success with this? Do you lose some germination vs spring or fall seedings?

OrganicsMaine
10-28-2010, 05:26 PM
I am going to try this as well, curious to get feedback on success rates.

grassman177
10-28-2010, 06:06 PM
always put more seed down than you would normally, but it does work well and i have done it. just do it right before a very late in the year before a rain or snow

americanlawn
10-28-2010, 06:17 PM
We did seed jobs mid August thru mid September (perfect timing). The KBG came up great for those that watered. What I'm finding is that most customers never bothered to water at all......not good cuz we got virtually NO rain. Our minimum charge for seeding is $75, so I just can't figure out why homeowners prefer rock-hard ground with cracks in it instead of new healthy Kentucky bluegrass. :confused:

We stopped seeding by October 1st, and we plan to do some dormant seeding in mid November. Even had great results the 2nd week of December if the ground was not frozen & no snow cover, cuz it came up nicely in early spring. Sometimes seeding is more "luck" than it is science.

OrganicsMaine
10-28-2010, 06:43 PM
I'm planning on doing it the week before Thanksgiving. Our overnight temps are usually in the mid-upper 20's by then and daytime highs in the 40's. I am just going to be spot seeding a few properties, not a total seed job.

teejet
10-28-2010, 07:36 PM
Only dormant seed bare spots and small areas in early spring. I wouldn't do it on a whole lawn unless there was no crabgrass the yr. before. I prefer crabgrass preventer in the spring over dormant seeding. Spot spraying crabgrass sucks.

OrganicsMaine
10-28-2010, 07:44 PM
Do you all think putting the seed down late fall is too early? I can also wait until early spring....as long as we don't have snow cover too late.

Young Bros
10-29-2010, 12:00 AM
Do you all think putting the seed down late fall is too early? I can also wait until early spring....as long as we don't have snow cover too late.

In our case we have enough to do in the spring. :dizzy:

RigglePLC
10-29-2010, 03:22 PM
Soil is cold in early spring. Perhaps low forties about March 15. Depending on your location and snow cover. Not good for seed. Grass dormant. Probably you should seed about the date of the first mowing. Would that be April first in your area?

Sod is better--less risk for you.

Look up pre-germination.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lawnsite.com%2Farchive%2Findex.php%2Ft-43914.html&ei=2h7LTJGwM4yXnAfJrZ35Dw&usg=AFQjCNEB2sDbMNdkrJ7UrpjNLjN0epgvkw

Barefoot James
10-29-2010, 05:56 PM
Sometimes seeding is more "luck" than it is science.
WOW:dizzy: just takes water frequent water 3 x's a day in mid afternoon - keep seed moist not wet, not soggy. Water tell first hard freeze and poof grass - no luck involved. You got 3500 accounts and are one of the better businessmen in the USA and you make a comment like above - WOW not picking on you but I can help - give me a call and we can talk - you got my number.
Clue - for those with no irrigation set up above ground - meaning timers (orbits), hoses and sprinklers - best are gilmour from Lowes item 99229 or steel spike ones - if customer does not want to buy this stuff - WALK AWAY cause the seed will not grow without rain and IRRIGATION.

grassman177
10-30-2010, 05:33 PM
a very late dormant seed job will take better than a fresh seeding in spring as it gets primed in the soil over the winter and germinates much sooner than your spring seeding jobs will

OrganicsMaine
10-30-2010, 08:07 PM
a very late dormant seed job will take better than a fresh seeding in spring as it gets primed in the soil over the winter and germinates much sooner than your spring seeding jobs will

Thanks Grass....all I needed to know on that!

grassman177
10-30-2010, 09:19 PM
just dont forget to use extra seed to ensure as some will likely die

Young Bros
11-01-2010, 12:18 PM
It's windy wed & thurs, so it looks like we will do some dormant core/seeds then.

olcllc
11-12-2010, 08:00 PM
Due to the rain/wind this year, we did not get all of our fall core/seedings done. I was thinking of trying dormant seeding this year in November. Have you had success with this? Do you lose some germination vs spring or fall seedings?

I will have to find the study and send it to you but dormant seeding is best performed in Febuary with nearly a 70% germination rate. I'll find it and post it for everyone.

corey4671
11-12-2010, 08:13 PM
Clue - for those with no irrigation set up above ground - meaning timers (orbits), hoses and sprinklers - best are gilmour from Lowes item 99229 or steel spike ones - if customer does not want to buy this stuff - WALK AWAY cause the seed will not grow without rain and IRRIGATION.

totally agree. used that EXACT setup on an account this year. worked great. Used the 4 valve timer from orbitz. easy squeezy setup

OrganicsMaine
11-12-2010, 08:24 PM
I will have to find the study and send it to you but dormant seeding is best performed in Febuary with nearly a 70% germination rate. I'll find it and post it for everyone.

We typically have 2' of snow on the ground in February. Sometimes, we go from an early April 18" snow to 65 degrees in a week. So dormant seeding then is difficult.

Would love to read the study.

olcllc
11-12-2010, 09:05 PM
We typically have 2' of snow on the ground in February. Sometimes, we go from an early April 18" snow to 65 degrees in a week. So dormant seeding then is difficult.

Would love to read the study.

Yep, 2' of snow would make it difficult. If you could get it on before the big snow then it would be ideal.

The biggest advantage to seeding late in the winter is that you have adequate moisture and the seed is exposed to the elements for a shorter period of time before germination... thus you loose less to birds, erosion, wind, etc...

There is a misnomer that some will die but cool season grasses are typically dormant during this time anyway. If it were warm season grasses then I could see it dying.

The study was performed by Purdue or Iowa I believe, so it probably did'nt take into account the long cold winters of the northeast and was most likely geared for the Midwest.

RigglePLC
11-12-2010, 09:26 PM
I don't get it.
It appears that soil temps in Maine remain at about freezing until April 21 at least.
See figure 1.
https://www.umaine.edu/mafes/elec_pubs/techbulletins/tb196.pdf

So I don't see how planting seed in November would result in faster germination--or any germination until the soil was a lot warmer.
According to this;
http://www.garden-counselor-lawn-care.com/grass-seed-germination.html
grass seed needs a minimum temp of 45 to 55 degrees.

And this source says 50 to 65.
http://www.fescue.com/info/whentoplant.html

Barefoot James
11-12-2010, 09:55 PM
totally agree. used that EXACT setup on an account this year. worked great. Used the 4 valve timer from orbitz. easy squeezy setup

Corey,

You rock dude - keep up the good works! try top dressing with compost clue #2

OrganicsMaine
11-12-2010, 10:49 PM
I don't get it.
It appears that soil temps in Maine remain at about freezing until April 21 at least.
See figure 1.
https://www.umaine.edu/mafes/elec_pubs/techbulletins/tb196.pdf

So I don't see how planting seed in November would result in faster germination--or any germination until the soil was a lot warmer.
According to this;
http://www.garden-counselor-lawn-care.com/grass-seed-germination.html
grass seed needs a minimum temp of 45 to 55 degrees.

And this source says 50 to 65.
http://www.fescue.com/info/whentoplant.html
For me, it is just a matter of convenience. I have a lot more time to go and dormant seed now than I will in the spring. Plus, I feel that if the seed sits under the snow all winter, it will get pushed down into the soil better. I will post my results on this in the spring. Another thing for us to consider is that we have a pretty long mud season. So for ball fields, no equipment can go on them until late April/early May, which puts us right into the baseball/lacross season. Better to get the seed down now and spot seed in spring.

Things happen a little different up here, a bit more condensed of a growing season....first mow is usually last week of April, and last mow(not including leaves) is usually now.

Also, that study is for a location in Northern Maine, my area is south coastal, so a totally different climate. We are probably 2-3 weeks ahead of that site.

Young Bros
11-13-2010, 06:40 PM
I will have to find the study and send it to you but dormant seeding is best performed in Febuary with nearly a 70% germination rate. I'll find it and post it for everyone.

Sorry, we usually have a foot of snow then. Temps in the teens, twenties.

bx24
11-13-2010, 08:40 PM
I tried dormant seeding last year and working very nice. On a nice 30F day (mind Jan)and snow was all melted, I put down about 300+ lbs of FF and KBG and then snowed etc...Spring came and looked mint..Will be putting down about another 200 lbsvin various spot...Ha, I get free custom made seed!!!!

DavidNJ
11-16-2010, 11:56 AM
What machine did you use to lay the seed?

Young Bros
11-16-2010, 05:34 PM
For bare ground we use a ryan overseeder. Most of our seedings are core aeration & spread seed with a spyker over existing lawns.

DavidNJ
11-16-2010, 08:32 PM
Is the Ryan looks great. Is it that much better than the Billy Goat or Bluebird? It is twice as expensive.

RigglePLC
11-16-2010, 10:05 PM
So---northern guys, if you do a lot of seeding and are experienced what do you think? If you applied seed before snow...side by side, on top of snow...side by side, cold day but snow melted...side by side with seed sown on the day of your usual first mowing. Which would look better? ( by May 15).

Barefoot James
11-19-2010, 07:33 PM
Link to Purdue info -
http://www.agry.purdue.edu/turf/pubs/ay-20.pdf

Dormant Seeding
If a spring seeding is necessary, consider
doing it before the frost comes out of the
ground. This is defined as “dormant seeding”
because the seed will lie dormant until the
soil temperatures warm in April or May.
Depending on your location in Indiana,
dormant seeding can be done as early as
Thanksgiving and as late as March. The
benefit of dormant seeding is that as the soil
heaves and cracks during the winter, crevices
are created for the seeds which create ideal
germination conditions. Additionally,dormant seeding is easier to schedule than
spring seeding, because spring rains make it
difficult to seed after March in Indiana.

Barefoot James
11-19-2010, 07:44 PM
Link to this info - not mine just apssing along a link.


______________________________________


http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2005/feb/03/dormant_seeding_improves/

Although it's too soon for watering, fertilizing and mowing, it is time to be thinking about overseeding. If you have a less-than-perfect lawn and would like to do something about it, here are some tips:

Dormant seeding is best completed between November and February. Grass seeds are inactive and will remain that way until the ground warms later this spring. However, recent research has shown that grass seeds sown in February germinate faster than seeds planted in other dormant months. One study found seeds sown in February grew to cover 73 percent of bare soil by the middle of April. December-sown seeds covered 47 percent of the soil, January 53 percent and March 50 percent. However, a month later, both the February and March seedings had 80 percent coverage. Likewise, in all cases the dormant seeded grasses had stored energy, established root systems and were better able to handle the tough, dry growing conditions of summer.

Dormant seeding is a simple process. To ensure success, there has to be good seed to soil contact. Simply rake small bare areas or work the ground with a verticutter, core aerator or rototiller. Next, spread the correct amount of seed. Generally, fescue and bluegrass should be planted no more than 6 to 8 pounds per thousand square feet and slightly less if there is already some healthy existing grass. Once planted, rake or pack the area lightly to encourage good seed-to-soil contact. Finally, be patient and let Mother Nature do the rest.

Keep in mind, that the use of pre-emergent herbicide is not recommended for areas where seed has been sown. Although crabgrass is a rather invasive weed when allowed to grow, having healthy grass can choke it out. If you do find crabgrass beginning to grow in the seeded areas, apply post-emergent herbicides after you have mowed the seedlings at least three times.

Although the grass may always seem greener on the other side of the fence, it does not have to stay that way. A lush, green lawn begins with good seed establishment. If you have areas in the lawn that appear less than full, now is a great time to sow dormant seed.

Remember to prepare the seed bed well and use the correct seeding rate, then let nature finish the job.

*trucewhiteflag*

naughty62
11-20-2010, 05:23 AM
We have pretty good luck with d. seeding .you may have to go back and seed area such as ,the drainage areas and steeper slopes .The spring melt and rains are a little unpredictale right now .And customer may have to pay for post crabgrass control.seed to soil contact is important .

jbell36
11-20-2010, 12:44 PM
Link to this info - not mine just apssing along a link.


______________________________________


http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2005/feb/03/dormant_seeding_improves/

Although it's too soon for watering, fertilizing and mowing, it is time to be thinking about overseeding. If you have a less-than-perfect lawn and would like to do something about it, here are some tips:

Dormant seeding is best completed between November and February. Grass seeds are inactive and will remain that way until the ground warms later this spring. However, recent research has shown that grass seeds sown in February germinate faster than seeds planted in other dormant months. One study found seeds sown in February grew to cover 73 percent of bare soil by the middle of April. December-sown seeds covered 47 percent of the soil, January 53 percent and March 50 percent. However, a month later, both the February and March seedings had 80 percent coverage. Likewise, in all cases the dormant seeded grasses had stored energy, established root systems and were better able to handle the tough, dry growing conditions of summer.

Dormant seeding is a simple process. To ensure success, there has to be good seed to soil contact. Simply rake small bare areas or work the ground with a verticutter, core aerator or rototiller. Next, spread the correct amount of seed. Generally, fescue and bluegrass should be planted no more than 6 to 8 pounds per thousand square feet and slightly less if there is already some healthy existing grass. Once planted, rake or pack the area lightly to encourage good seed-to-soil contact. Finally, be patient and let Mother Nature do the rest.

Keep in mind, that the use of pre-emergent herbicide is not recommended for areas where seed has been sown. Although crabgrass is a rather invasive weed when allowed to grow, having healthy grass can choke it out. If you do find crabgrass beginning to grow in the seeded areas, apply post-emergent herbicides after you have mowed the seedlings at least three times.

Although the grass may always seem greener on the other side of the fence, it does not have to stay that way. A lush, green lawn begins with good seed establishment. If you have areas in the lawn that appear less than full, now is a great time to sow dormant seed.

Remember to prepare the seed bed well and use the correct seeding rate, then let nature finish the job.

*trucewhiteflag*

that's crazy, that's my local newspaper...how did u come accross that?

grassman177
11-20-2010, 04:21 PM
that is crazy, i am near jbell too. that is some good info. i usually dormant seed in december, i dont want to chance having snow on the ground or too cold to verticut the ground in february when it claims studies get better germination etc.

i however put down way more seed than normal to accomadate this known fact, i just never have seen the info written down from studies to support what i kinda knew already.

olcllc
11-20-2010, 05:26 PM
Link to this info - not mine just apssing along a link.


______________________________________


http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2005/feb/03/dormant_seeding_improves/

Although it's too soon for watering, fertilizing and mowing, it is time to be thinking about overseeding. If you have a less-than-perfect lawn and would like to do something about it, here are some tips:

Dormant seeding is best completed between November and February. Grass seeds are inactive and will remain that way until the ground warms later this spring. However, recent research has shown that grass seeds sown in February germinate faster than seeds planted in other dormant months. One study found seeds sown in February grew to cover 73 percent of bare soil by the middle of April. December-sown seeds covered 47 percent of the soil, January 53 percent and March 50 percent. However, a month later, both the February and March seedings had 80 percent coverage. Likewise, in all cases the dormant seeded grasses had stored energy, established root systems and were better able to handle the tough, dry growing conditions of summer.

Dormant seeding is a simple process. To ensure success, there has to be good seed to soil contact. Simply rake small bare areas or work the ground with a verticutter, core aerator or rototiller. Next, spread the correct amount of seed. Generally, fescue and bluegrass should be planted no more than 6 to 8 pounds per thousand square feet and slightly less if there is already some healthy existing grass. Once planted, rake or pack the area lightly to encourage good seed-to-soil contact. Finally, be patient and let Mother Nature do the rest.

Keep in mind, that the use of pre-emergent herbicide is not recommended for areas where seed has been sown. Although crabgrass is a rather invasive weed when allowed to grow, having healthy grass can choke it out. If you do find crabgrass beginning to grow in the seeded areas, apply post-emergent herbicides after you have mowed the seedlings at least three times.

Although the grass may always seem greener on the other side of the fence, it does not have to stay that way. A lush, green lawn begins with good seed establishment. If you have areas in the lawn that appear less than full, now is a great time to sow dormant seed.

Remember to prepare the seed bed well and use the correct seeding rate, then let nature finish the job.

*trucewhiteflag*

Thanks for finding the info. I couldn't remember where I had read it.

DavidNJ
11-20-2010, 06:20 PM
that is crazy, i am near jbell too. that is some good info. i usually dormant seed in december, i dont want to chance having snow on the ground or too cold to verticut the ground in february when it claims studies get better germination etc.

i however put down way more seed than normal to accomadate this known fact, i just never have seen the info written down from studies to support what i kinda knew already.

How deep to you cut? What rate do you use for TTTF? Which seeder do you use?

Right now I'm planning to use a rented Ryan to put down Lebanon Turf Winning Colors the week before Christmas.

grassman177
11-21-2010, 06:10 PM
that is a great blend, we cut in at a .5in depth or so, it really fluffs everything up. we are using simple and reliable classen 21in honda powered verticutters. nothing fancy, but very good at what it does.

we also have a larger slit seeder by classen, but currently are havving issues with the tubes clogging and not dropping seed into the slits. i had to redo a job as it got very little results because of later learning the seed metered in poorly.

we broadcast the area with either the scotts or lesco hand spreaders, and very large areas we will use the zspray with the large spyker spreader on it.

ihave done very large areas with these machines and it does very well, and i get very good results, provided mother nature does not really F it all up, which no one can avoid.

i usually put down TTTF at a rate of 12-14 lbs per 1000 knowing i am going to lose some of it to rot or whatever. or, you can put it down at the usual 8-10 lbs per K and then right before the last snow broadcast another 4lbs per K which finishes off any that did not take or like an added assurance.

either way seems to work about the same

CHARLES CUE
11-21-2010, 06:11 PM
Has any one ever tryed a seed emergence aid. You mix it with your seed before planting. It makes a little more work. It says it's 2-10-0 and has micronutrients. It is to help when you plant a seed before it is time to germinate. Farmers use it early in the spring on corn or small grains.

Just a thought

Charles Cue

Young Bros
11-22-2010, 01:41 PM
Has any one ever tryed a seed emergence aid. You mix it with your seed before planting. It makes a little more work. It says it's 2-10-0 and has micronutrients. It is to help when you plant a seed before it is time to germinate. Farmers use it early in the spring on corn or small grains.

Just a thought

Charles Cue

We put 12-28-12 fert down & seed starter mulch (recycled paper & corn fiber)

DavidNJ
11-22-2010, 02:03 PM
Has any one ever tryed a seed emergence aid. You mix it with your seed before planting. It makes a little more work. It says it's 2-10-0 and has micronutrients. It is to help when you plant a seed before it is time to germinate. Farmers use it early in the spring on corn or small grains.

Just a thought

Charles Cue

Do you mean this stuff: http://www.showmeagproducts.com/AmplifyPres.pdf

http://www.onetoughroof.com/images/amplify-d.jpg

CHARLES CUE
11-22-2010, 02:26 PM
We put 12-28-12 fert down & seed starter mulch (recycled paper & corn fiber)

I don't know how much of the NPK would be left buy the time the seed germinated in spring. But this stuff attaches it self to the seed and is there for the seed to use when it germinates in the spring. gives it a boot off the starting line. Then you can apply starter fert in the spring after it germinates and can make the best of NPK.

Charles Cue

CHARLES CUE
11-22-2010, 02:29 PM
[QUOTE=DavidNJ;3799197]Do you mean this stuff: http://www.showmeagproducts.com/AmplifyPres.pdf

Yea some thing like that and others.I image there are many different types.

Charles Cue

DavidNJ
11-22-2010, 02:51 PM
It is a seed coating, do you know of others?

CHARLES CUE
11-23-2010, 06:40 PM
It is a seed coating, do you know of others?

I personally don't know of others. The one i have is what you showed But i was only trying to start a idea and a conversation. Not to sell something.

I would imagine that if one co makes some others do to.

Seems to work very well when the conditions are not the greatest for seed germination.

Charles Cue

DavidNJ
11-23-2010, 09:30 PM
I've talked to some seed people and the feedback it is for specific seeds in specific climates, neither being TTFG in NJ.

Meanwhile, there is 500# of Lebanon Turf Winning Colors in my truck.

CHARLES CUE
11-24-2010, 03:44 PM
I've talked to some seed people and the feedback it is for specific seeds in specific climates, neither being TTFG in NJ.

Meanwhile, there is 500# of Lebanon Turf Winning Colors in my truck.

IT list corn and small grain. Grass seed would fall into small grain. I bet this stuff cant tell the differnce between seeds, It works fine on grass seed.

Charles Cue

grassman177
11-24-2010, 11:46 PM
intersting, how are the reviews of what it does. i mean, basically you are pregerminating your seed in this stuff?

DavidNJ
11-24-2010, 11:58 PM
I'd give them a ring on the phone. One supplier, a supplier who stocks top NTEP seeds like Cochise IV, Falcon V and VanGogh, said ti was typically used in specific climates.

CHARLES CUE
11-26-2010, 02:21 PM
intersting, how are the reviews of what it does. i mean, basically you are pregerminating your seed in this stuff?

Grassman no it's not pregerminating seed.

You take your grass seed pour in to a 5 gal bucket about 3/4 full . add ampliy D [it's a power ] put on the lid and roll it around till all the seeds are coated.

Than you plant the seeds.

It's a fert coating thats there when the seed first germinates and gives it a jump start to life.

And it protects the seed from mold.when it's wet and cold.

The guys that i have talked to that use it in farming say that it works great when you plant early before conditions are right.

But once you get into great weather where the soil is warm and planting conditions are good you cant tell the difference.

Charles Cue

DavidNJ
11-26-2010, 03:51 PM
Conklin specifies 'small seeded grasses'. Would that be bluegrass and not fescue? Would it be for a pasture rather than a lawn?

CHARLES CUE
11-26-2010, 06:18 PM
Conklin specifies 'small seeded grasses'. Would that be bluegrass and not fescue? Would it be for a pasture rather than a lawn?

That would be all grasses. That would be for application rate on how much it would take to treat a 50 lbs bag of seed.

You should call Conklin and talk to a expert on this stuff 1-800-888-8838 tell them you need to talk to some one in the ag dept.

Charles Cue

grassman177
11-26-2010, 06:25 PM
i get you, thanks for the explanation of what it was. you would have to dry out the seed afterwards i would assume as it will be wet, or is it a dry? or what? it sounds like it could be intensive if you had to dry it to then be able to spread it.

grassman177
11-26-2010, 06:26 PM
oh, and did you guys know that this thread(including me) was featured in the small TURF mag section "in your words". yuup, fall seeding was the title. well, at least i think it was this thread. i dont know for sure

CHARLES CUE
11-26-2010, 09:19 PM
i get you, thanks for the explanation of what it was. you would have to dry out the seed afterwards i would assume as it will be wet, or is it a dry? or what? it sounds like it could be intensive if you had to dry it to then be able to spread it.

It is dry sticks to the seed and every thing Else.

They make a liquid but i don't know about it?

Yes it could be labor intensive if you had a lot to do. Me i only try ed it out of wanting to try and have only done small stuff.

Just think what it would take to do 500 acres of corn seed. They use cement mixers and re bag it.

Charles Cue

CHARLES CUE
11-26-2010, 09:27 PM
oh, and did you guys know that this thread(including me) was featured in the small TURF mag section "in your words". yuup, fall seeding was the title. well, at least i think it was this thread. i dont know for sure

So what is the small TURF mag ?

My words? Don't remember trying yuup but have said it.

Nice to see your famous.

Charles Cue

grassman177
11-27-2010, 03:54 PM
you are funny charles, but far from famous i am, it was happenstance and larry was the one that told me, i do however usually read those to see who got spotlighted with their infinite words of wisdom!

CHARLES CUE
11-28-2010, 09:32 PM
you are funny charles, but far from famous i am, it was happenstance and larry was the one that told me, i do however usually read those to see who got spotlighted with their infinite words of wisdom!

I found it page 15 called FALL SEEDING and your in there congrats.

But it's not this thread

Charles Cue

grassman177
11-28-2010, 10:10 PM
oh, oops, all good

still, i am getting out this week to do what this thread is about, dormant seeding.

supposed to have a realatively dry winter so i think that will be great as to not rot my seed

CHARLES CUE
11-29-2010, 09:00 PM
oh, oops, all good

still, i am getting out this week to do what this thread is about, dormant seeding.

supposed to have a realatively dry winter so i think that will be great as to not rot my seed

Sounds like a good idea get it done while it's still a little dry and cold

We are to get 2 days of rain starting to nite

Well if it's a dry winter i hope we get some rain in the spring and summer

I will wait till later in the winter to do my seeding

Good luck

Charles Cue

grassman177
11-30-2010, 12:23 AM
yeah, we are farther north than you so that makes a difference.

i dont want to chance waiting till feb like some and the ground is frozen and wont allow me to verticut.

i did my seeding today, ground was nice a dry makes for a great overseed and verticut.

i seeded at about 10-12 lbs per K TTTF.

CHARLES CUE
11-30-2010, 09:01 PM
yeah, we are farther north than you so that makes a difference.

i dont want to chance waiting till feb like some and the ground is frozen and wont allow me to verticut.

i did my seeding today, ground was nice a dry makes for a great overseed and verticut.

i seeded at about 10-12 lbs per K TTTF.

Well i hope all works out in your seeding

Rained all day here ground is saturated and creeks are up. This is the first time the ground has had standing water on it for some time. thats good
.

So are you done for the year or is there more to do.

Charles Cue

DavidNJ
12-01-2010, 12:35 AM
Still too warm here in NJ, IMHO.

grassman177
12-01-2010, 08:18 AM
i am working the next couple of days to finish late leaf removals and we are done, had to wait till after the holiday to finish as the leaves were not quite down all the way, but we had several days of strong winds!

CHARLES CUE
12-01-2010, 08:05 PM
i am working the next couple of days to finish late leaf removals and we are done, had to wait till after the holiday to finish as the leaves were not quite down all the way, but we had several days of strong winds!

We haven't had leaves for the past month here good luck with your leaf removal and have a great winter.

The forecast called for rain to quit last night with a few snow showers this morning. It snowed till noon than sun came out for a hour and it's snowing again we got 3 inch.

We went sledding

Let it snow let it snow let it snow!

Charles Cue

grassman177
12-01-2010, 08:17 PM
dang, seems early for that, but it has happened before here.

today was in the upper 30s but sunny. did leaf vacs till lunch and then mowed last cuts for the rest of the day. between tomorrow and friday i have to mow about the same number of lawns plus removal on lawns of large size. i just want to be done, i dont know how anyone down south can do year round lawn care. it would kill me i think

CHARLES CUE
12-01-2010, 09:36 PM
I would not want to mow all year. Could do apps though.

Got into construction. Work hard all Summer play all winter never got layed off. Worked all year.

Now in lawn care off in the winter. but have 2 business just work harder on the 2 one in the winter;

Charles Cue

americanlawn
12-02-2010, 05:48 PM
Sod farms here are still providing new sod here (central Iowa). I saw 2 semi-trailers today hauling fresh sod today (the big rolls). We did three "dormant seed" jobs earlier this week. Problem is, the topsoils here are between frozen and unfrozen depending on the day/time of day. Bottom line: We are at the end of successful dormant seeding, cuz spring germination rates will be greatly diminished. But if a customer calls in and says they have bare dirt, and they want help....it might be worth taking a chance (according to local seed companies). My 2 cents :waving:

CHARLES CUE
12-02-2010, 07:29 PM
Sod farms here are still providing new sod here (central Iowa). I saw 2 semi-trailers today hauling fresh sod today (the big rolls). We did three "dormant seed" jobs earlier this week. Problem is, the topsoils here are between frozen and unfrozen depending on the day/time of day. Bottom line: We are at the end of successful dormant seeding, cuz spring germination rates will be greatly diminished. But if a customer calls in and says they have bare dirt, and they want help....it might be worth taking a chance (according to local seed companies). My 2 cents :waving:

Why are we at the end of dormant seeding time.

Why would the spring germinate rates greatly diminish ?

I would think the longer the seed set on the ground the more time the seed has to rot get washed away eaten by a bird.

I would think the best time to dormant seed would be right before the ground would be warm enough to germinate.

Sounds like we got lots of time.

Thats why you seed at a high rate. Some seed wont mafe it.

If the ground is bare and it's to wet or frozen sprinkle some seed on the ground and soil on top about 1/4 inch.

Charles Cue

grassman177
12-02-2010, 09:55 PM
in the studies though,seed either right now, or end of feb, but anywhere in between the germination rates DO diminish.

garydale
12-03-2010, 10:38 AM
We seed up to Thanksgiving generally. Dormant seeding in March +/- is what we will do next.

The freeze/thaw action works the seed in without having to cultivate the wet soil.

There was a good amount of insect damage here and just about everyone has some damage. That has me thinking I will offer Dormant Seeding in place of our Round One application for both prepays and per application programs.

Then use Round Two to get pre-emergent down.

Dormant seeding is a stop gap thing and should be followed by early fall seeding.

RigglePLC
12-03-2010, 02:40 PM
Well I was in southern Maryland last week, and true, the-non irrigated lawns took a beating last summer (tall fescue). So you plan to do seeding for everyone with tall fescue in early spring? Is there anough time to get the crabgrass control down after the seed is established, but before crabgrass?

Oddly I ran into two Scotts lawn service trucks in the southern Maryland neighborhood. The were spreading winterizer using spreaders and Permagreen Ultras carried on double tube rear platforms. They also used the Permagreens to spray a few weeds as needed. Temps about 50. I talked with the guys and they said, "Too late to seed."

grassman177
12-03-2010, 07:04 PM
i am pretty sure it is and will be ok to seed here as a dormant seed up until we get our next precipitation. that is not in the forcast so it could be done, unitll then it is dry and cold.

americanlawn
12-03-2010, 08:10 PM
Thanks buddy -- I asked 2 local seed companies last week & also checked 2 national seed companies's sites. I also realize that Charles is in a different growing zone, but we are currently experiencing frozen soils, and the ten day forecast calls for daytime highs that are below freezing.

Bottom line: Seeding in these conditions greatly diminishes germination >>>> just like you said. :usflag::usflag:

in the studies though,seed either right now, or end of feb, but anywhere in between the germination rates DO diminish.

CHARLES CUE
12-03-2010, 09:15 PM
I am in zone 5 just like Kansans and and what zone are you in larry? It gets could here to i have seen 30 below.

I agree that any time you put grass seed down and have to wait for months for it to germinate the odds are some of it wont groww.

Hay guys i don't live in the south.

It has snowed here for several days now. We may run a few degs higher on the average than some of you. But believe it not that different.

Charles Cue

garydale
12-04-2010, 10:13 AM
We plan toonly offer the Round One Switch to Dormant Seeding to those clients that have turf damage. It will be their decision on whether to switch.

Late fall seedlings can be killed off by desiccation. Frost heave and wind will wipe the new turf out.

Attached are a couple of our handouts.

grassman177
12-04-2010, 03:31 PM
i do offer this service, but make it as a reccomendation and do not "trade out" as far as costs to do the early spring seeding and late app pre emergent. i usually dont reccomend it unless the lawn is super bad. either way, a spring seeding and what you have to deal with as far as more weed control costs more to the customer.

CHARLES CUE
02-19-2011, 09:47 PM
I was out doing some seeding to day All the snow is gone and we have had a couple 70 deg days and very windy dried it up very nice. To day it was 50 deg and got it done now hope for the best come spring. I think about 5 to 6 weeks to germination.

Charles Cue

DavidNJ
02-19-2011, 09:52 PM
How did you put the seed in? We are still snow covered.

Since I'm stuck for at least another week or two (3-4" of snow over 50-70% of the turf) I'm planning on using RoundUp and then a soil cultivator to prep the soil first.

CHARLES CUE
02-19-2011, 09:58 PM
How did you put the seed in? We are still snow covered.

Since I'm stuck for at least another week or two (3-4" of snow over 50-70% of the turf) I'm planning on using RoundUp and then a soil cultivator to prep the soil first.

A LS slit seeder NO snow here

Charles Cue

RigglePLC
02-19-2011, 10:39 PM
Oddly enough, the parks dept here did some digging on a creek bank (really a drainage ditch) about last Thanksgiving in 2010. They covered the bare dirt with mats of excelsior held down with wooden stakes. I am assuming there is seed in the mats or perhaps under the mats. Cold. No sign of germination yet in fall 2010, or so far in spring 2011. 25 degrees today--snow melted--but more expected. I will try to get photos.

DavidNJ
02-19-2011, 11:18 PM
Oddly enough, the parks dept here did some digging on a creek bank (really a drainage ditch) about last Thanksgiving in 2010. They covered the bare dirt with mats of excelsior held down with wooden stakes. I am assuming there is seed in the mats or perhaps under the mats. Cold. No sign of germination yet in fall 2010, or so far in spring 2011. 25 degrees today--snow melted--but more expected. I will try to get photos.

Michigan did a paper on dormant seeding. I think they expect germination in early April. Can't find the link right now.

OrganicsMaine
02-20-2011, 05:58 AM
I was out doing some seeding to day All the snow is gone and we have had a couple 70 deg days and very windy dried it up very nice. To day it was 50 deg and got it done now hope for the best come spring. I think about 5 to 6 weeks to germination.

Charles Cue

Jealous! Still have 2' of snow on the ground here. We're still 6 weeks out until anything good is going to happen here.

Smallaxe
02-20-2011, 03:18 PM
Michigan did a paper on dormant seeding. I think they expect germination in early April. Can't find the link right now.

Here in Wisco, we're doing good to get germination by the end of April, and in the shadier areas, I've waited until Memorial Weekend... :)

CHARLES CUE
02-20-2011, 07:31 PM
Jealous! Still have 2' of snow on the ground here. We're still 6 weeks out until anything good is going to happen here.

Yea but it's going to rain now and we will have mud yuk.

We are so far way from each other. But some times just 30 miles makes a difference. I live about 30 miles from the Ohio river and the valley that the river runs in. Spring will come a week or two early than here where i live because of the water in the river keeps it warmer and the leaves come on sooner the same is true in the fall to. Just a thought for the day.

Charles Cue

Barefoot James
02-20-2011, 07:56 PM
Michigan did a paper on dormant seeding. I think they expect germination in early April. Can't find the link right now.
Here are a couple:waving:
Dormant Seeding –
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2005/fe...ding_improves/

Although it's too soon for watering, fertilizing and mowing, it is time to be thinking about overseeding. If you have a less-than-perfect lawn and would like to do something about it, here are some tips:

Dormant seeding is best completed between November and February. Grass seeds are inactive and will remain that way until the ground warms later this spring. However, recent research has shown that grass seeds sown in February germinate faster than seeds planted in other dormant months. One study found seeds sown in February grew to cover 73 percent of bare soil by the middle of April. December-sown seeds covered 47 percent of the soil, January 53 percent and March 50 percent. However, a month later, both the February and March seedings had 80 percent coverage. Likewise, in all cases the dormant seeded grasses had stored energy, established root systems and were better able to handle the tough, dry growing conditions of summer.

Dormant seeding is a simple process. To ensure success, there has to be good seed to soil contact. Simply rake small bare areas or work the ground with a verticutter, core aerator or rototiller. Next, spread the correct amount of seed. Generally, fescue and bluegrass should be planted no more than 6 to 8 pounds per thousand square feet and slightly less if there is already some healthy existing grass. Once planted, rake or pack the area lightly to encourage good seed-to-soil contact. Finally, be patient and let Mother Nature do the rest.

Keep in mind, that the use of pre-emergent herbicide is not recommended for areas where seed has been sown. Although crabgrass is a rather invasive weed when allowed to grow, having healthy grass can choke it out. If you do find crabgrass beginning to grow in the seeded areas, apply post-emergent herbicides after you have mowed the seedlings at least three times.

Although the grass may always seem greener on the other side of the fence, it does not have to stay that way. A lush, green lawn begins with good seed establishment. If you have areas in the lawn that appear less than full, now is a great time to sow dormant seed.

Remember to prepare the seed bed well and use the correct seeding rate, then let nature finish the job.
Link to Purdue info -
http://www.agry.purdue.edu/turf/pubs/ay-20.pdf

Dormant Seeding
If a spring seeding is necessary, consider
doing it before the frost comes out of the
ground. This is defined as “dormant seeding”
because the seed will lie dormant until the
soil temperatures warm in April or May.
Depending on your location in Indiana,
dormant seeding can be done as early as
Thanksgiving and as late as March. The
benefit of dormant seeding is that as the soil
heaves and cracks during the winter, crevices
are created for the seeds which create ideal
germination conditions. Additionally,dormant seeding is easier to schedule than
spring seeding, because spring rains make it
difficult to seed after March in Indiana.

RigglePLC
02-20-2011, 09:16 PM
I was skeptical about dormant seeding...BUT...seeing is believing. As mentioned above the parks dept did some digging and construction resulting in some bare dirt on the banks of a creek last November. They covered the bare soil with special mats of escelsior in nylon mesh. It was held down with wooden stakes. Seed was probably sown underneath the mats. Up until December I saw no response. However today, Feb 20, I lifted the mat and found grass sprouting--to a maximum of about an inch, (I presume ryegrass). 18 inches of snow fell Feb 2nd, but it melted as it was 50 degrees for 3 days earlier this week. I took pictures, but not likely you can see the new grass next to the copper penny. Snow storm had just started, and eventually added 6 inches of snow. Temp 26 now.

CHARLES CUE
02-20-2011, 09:56 PM
I was skeptical about dormant seeding...BUT...seeing is believing. As mentioned above the parks dept did some digging and construction resulting in some bare dirt on the banks of a creek last November. They covered the bare soil with special mats of escelsior in nylon mesh. It was held down with wooden stakes. Seed was probably sown underneath the mats. Up until December I saw no response. However today, Feb 20, I lifted the mat and found grass sprouting--to a maximum of about an inch, (I presume ryegrass). 18 inches of snow fell Feb 2nd, but it melted as it was 50 degrees for 3 days earlier this week. I took pictures, but not likely you can see the new grass next to the copper penny. Snow storm had just started, and eventually added 6 inches of snow. Temp 26 now.

Nice photos

You are probably right a contractors mix lots of rye

I have seen grass germinate in the middle of the winter.

All it takes is a couple of sunny days and warm weather to get soil temps up.

The problem is getting grass to a point to get crabgrass control down buy the middle of may

Charles Cue



Charles Cue

DavidNJ
02-20-2011, 10:24 PM
Having missed the dormant seeding windows (still covered with snow) we are doing a rennovation.

We will use a Dingo soil cultivator to prepare the bed, probably mixing in a top dressing and lime. Then slit seed Lebanon Turf Winning Colors Tall Fescue mix. Either Dupont Imprellis or Syngenta Tenacity will be sprayed for crabgrass control, TBD.

No irrigation though. With a 3/4" water main, an irrigation for 1.5 acres is problematic.

Smallaxe
02-21-2011, 11:39 AM
Having missed the dormant seeding windows (still covered with snow) we are doing a rennovation.

We will use a Dingo soil cultivator to prepare the bed, probably mixing in a top dressing and lime. Then slit seed Lebanon Turf Winning Colors Tall Fescue mix. Either Dupont Imprellis or Syngenta Tenacity will be sprayed for crabgrass control, TBD.

No irrigation though. With a 3/4" water main, an irrigation for 1.5 acres is problematic.

Your ground thawed already... Where are you from... :)

James,
good article, thanks. but Feb is useless for us, we go into Mar/Apr...
Dormant seeding was correctly identified in the article as anytime when the frost is still in the ground... Heaving and cracking during the freeze thaw cycle makes the self planting thing work as well. I don't put too much into surface tilling during dormancy, but of course it all helps..
I'm glad that the Universities are finally identifying what the farmers did long b4 they had Universities... :)

DavidNJ
02-21-2011, 03:47 PM
Your ground thawed already... Where are you from... :)

James,
good article, thanks. but Feb is useless for us, we go into Mar/Apr...
Dormant seeding was correctly identified in the article as anytime when the frost is still in the ground... Heaving and cracking during the freeze thaw cycle makes the self planting thing work as well. I don't put too much into surface tilling during dormancy, but of course it all helps..
I'm glad that the Universities are finally identifying what the farmers did long b4 they had Universities... :)

That would be hard to tell since it is still under 6" of snow in most areas and half the rest has about 1/2" of ice.

Smallaxe
02-21-2011, 07:27 PM
That would be hard to tell since it is still under 6" of snow in most areas and half the rest has about 1/2" of ice.

Well, you got time then... Just like us, only our ice was just covered with another foot of snow... :)

DavidNJ
02-21-2011, 09:31 PM
We only got another 3 inches or so, very fluffy. It melted off the blacktop by itself.

Smallaxe
02-21-2011, 09:58 PM
We only got another 3 inches or so, very fluffy. It melted off the blacktop by itself.

Lucky, ours iced onto the road way immediately on wheel contact... Sunday morning... our drifting continues, with another band on its way tonite... May be able to head for town tomorrow... I think the beer will last... :)

RigglePLC
02-22-2011, 11:56 AM
This brings up a good point. Is it possible to apply seed over snow? Someone try it and let us know. Maybe I will try it.

Also is it possible to pre-germinate seed inside in warm water. Dry it...and...sock it onto slightly warm soil when soil temps hit about 40? ( air temp of about 50.)
If this works--maybe--maybe you could sow seed in spring and have time to apply crabgrass control in May. Or just us Imprelis?

Smallaxe
02-22-2011, 06:48 PM
I thought about the seed on top of snow thing as well. I think though that once it melts that it will be floating all over the place...

I think that once you soak a seed and it starts coming to life it has to continue. Interuption of that process may cause death... JMO...

Riggle, you don't believe that grasslings can germinate and outgrow Pre-m b4 CG, do you? :)

OrganicsMaine
02-22-2011, 07:24 PM
Where I am, we have almost optimal growing conditions all season. Our average high is upper 70's in July and August, and we usually get enough rain to keep established lawns going well, so I have no worries about dormant seeding and cg issues.

RigglePLC
02-25-2011, 11:00 AM
Yes, Organics, but its cold in Maine. Don't you have trouble getting grass (especially bluegrass) to germinate when the soil is cold? Which is pretty much all the time?
Is it possible under your conditions, to sow bluegrass in the spring and have it mature enough to survive crab grass pre-emergent in time for the crabgrass control to be effective? How about perennial rye?

I began a test of pregerminating Scotts "High Traffic", a mostly rye mixture( Silver Dollar, and Devine perennial rye). 24 hours soaking with a pump running to circulate the water, and provide mild aeration. Changed to new water at 12 hours. Used about an ounce of seed in 2 gallons of water. But ...most of Scotts seed is coated with the Zeba cellulose coating to retain water--not sure of what effect that will have.

OrganicsMaine
02-25-2011, 11:19 AM
Our soil temps are adequate by late April/Early May. CG doesn't really kick in until mid-late June. Fall is still best for seeding here, but a spring seeding can work well if done properly.

I have been toying with the idea of soaking the seed, and spot seeding with compost during the season. I will probably do this and see how it works. I have not used Scotts seed, I usually use Lesco mix or seed from a local supplier.

Oh yeah, I'm not a huge fan of Rye because if we have a cold winter with little/no snow cover, there can be a good amount of die back. I usually use a little as a cover until the KBG/TTTF can fill in.

ChiTownAmateur
02-26-2011, 12:01 PM
If you dormant seed then, is there any need for watering once spring does come and it has not fully come up yet? It seems to me as an amateur that if dormant seeding does not require watering that it would be ideal for the typical lazy homeowners that won't water. I will water....but the question stands, is watering necessary?

OrganicsMaine
02-26-2011, 12:48 PM
If you dormant seed then, is there any need for watering once spring does come and it has not fully come up yet? It seems to me as an amateur that if dormant seeding does not require watering that it would be ideal for the typical lazy homeowners that won't water. I will water....but the question stands, is watering necessary?

You don't need to water when you seed, but if there isn't enough moisture in the spring, you will have to water once you see germination. There was most likely enough moisture in the ground to get the process started, but if you let the new seedlings dry out, no good.

garydale
02-26-2011, 01:27 PM
You don't need to water when you seed, but if there isn't enough moisture in the spring, you will have to water once you see germination. There was most likely enough moisture in the ground to get the process started, but if you let the new seedlings dry out, no good.

New seedlings are very sensitive to drying out. Thats why I don't think presoaking will work. IMO

RigglePLC
02-26-2011, 03:07 PM
I soaked the seed for 24 hours with circulation. Odd--seed sank to bottom of bucket. My mistake Scotts "High Traffic" has no cultivar "Devine".
It is mostly "Silver Dollar", which is resistant to gray leaf spot, red thread, dollarspot, rust, and brown patch. http://www.scottsproseed.com/download.php?obj_id=228&browser=true
and
"Defender" perennial rye, (which is highly resistant to the serious disease:Gray leaf spot. http://www.scottsproseed.com/download.php?obj_id=219&browser=true

I planted soaked and unsoaked seed at the same time in coffee mugs inside in potting soil. We keep our house cool--about 65 degrees.

OrganicsMaine
02-26-2011, 06:13 PM
New seedlings are very sensitive to drying out. Thats why I don't think presoaking will work. IMO

Pre-soaking for dormant seeding is not worth it, and could potentially cause germination, which you don't want too early, so no it wouldn't work in this case. However, if you are simply overseeding, then it makes sense.

Riggle, keep us posted on the results.

DavidNJ
02-26-2011, 07:18 PM
I soaked the seed for 24 hours with circulation. Odd--seed sank to bottom of bucket. My mistake Scotts "High Traffic" has no cultivar "Devine".
It is mostly "Silver Dollar", which is resistant to gray leaf spot, red thread, dollarspot, rust, and brown patch. http://www.scottsproseed.com/download.php?obj_id=228&browser=true
and
"Defender" perennial rye, (which is highly resistant to the serious disease:Gray leaf spot. http://www.scottsproseed.com/download.php?obj_id=219&browser=true

I planted soaked and unsoaked seed at the same time in coffee mugs inside in potting soil. We keep our house cool--about 65 degrees.

How do you keep the seed from drowning? Do you soak until seeing germination/root growth? Do you pre-soak in water or do you use a compost tea?

RigglePLC
02-26-2011, 10:24 PM
I pre-soaked in plain water, (although some experts suggest various additives). The circulation pump provided a little bit of aeration. Hopefully enough to prevent drowning. I used a small submersible fountain pump. No result at 24 hours--but I am thinking it would be faster if temps were a little higher. Once dried the seed looks about the same.

Barefoot James
02-26-2011, 10:51 PM
You can't let it totally dry - it will die! That's my first point.

Basically you soak in good water - 9no chlorine), for 12 hours and out for 12 hours - do this over 4/5 days and you will have germination in 48 hours in fall soil. Spring time no clue the soil temp has to be 55. Not really needed when doing dorment seeding the winter soil is always moist and is priming the seed so when the soil temp is right it will germinate. This is the big advantage of dormant seeding - no water.

We got rain once for 24 hours right after we pregerminated the seed and had grass 1/2 inch high - in 24 hours! this was fescue too not rye! they do this all the time on pro sports fields. google it! This is how I learned.

OrganicsMaine
02-27-2011, 07:29 AM
Hey Barefoot, how do you soak it? In the sack or some other way? I would think if you left it in the sack it wouldn't have a chance to dry out.

Barefoot James
02-27-2011, 02:32 PM
50 lbs bags in 55 gal drums - soak and take out lay flat for 12 hours and soak again - never dries out. Then when ready to use I spread it out on concrete and mix humates in with it or bio sludge (Louisville Green) so dry it up a bit (but it is still moist) so it will spread with a push spreader or drop out of a Turf Revitalizer. It has to be some what dry on the outside but moist inside. The humates and/or bio help with this. what ever you do don't let it go more than 12 hours or lay in sun when drying.

Smallaxe
02-28-2011, 12:02 PM
This all reminds me of the "cowpies" of germinated seedlings in spagnum, compost or peat... Mix up a whole lot of seed w/spagnum, in a 20 gal. garbage and soak it with water...
Best w/out standing water in the barrel, but thoroughly soaked. The stuff gets stirred daily for aeration and in about 7-10 days, KBG is germinating and ready to wheel barrow around and plop the handfuls as needed around the yard...

If you've got areas that absolutely need to be done and are afraid that dormant seeding will not work quickly enough, this is the best way to go, in that it is growing already... :)

OrganicsMaine
02-28-2011, 12:50 PM
50 lbs bags in 55 gal drums - soak and take out lay flat for 12 hours and soak again - never dries out. Then when ready to use I spread it out on concrete and mix humates in with it or bio sludge (Louisville Green) so dry it up a bit (but it is still moist) so it will spread with a push spreader or drop out of a Turf Revitalizer. It has to be some what dry on the outside but moist inside. The humates and/or bio help with this. what ever you do don't let it go more than 12 hours or lay in sun when drying.

So, soak it overnight, lay it out but not in direct sun. Mix with a quality compost and spot seed when pulling weeds, or finding thin areas. Or do a complete topdressing with this mixed in....a lot of extra mixing I would think.

RigglePLC
03-01-2011, 09:50 PM
The results so far. At 96 hours after sowing, at 65 degrees, the pre-soaked seed was up to about a maximum of 1/4 inch tall. I could count about 20 new grass sprouts. No sprouts yet from the non-presoak seed.

RigglePLC
03-01-2011, 10:08 PM
Here is the soaking bucket and small pump.
Next is non-primed seed sown on top of snow in plastic container, And the same container, closer up.

DavidNJ
03-01-2011, 10:32 PM
That pail looks quite small. Can you process 500# that way? If you did, how would you sow the germinated seed?

RigglePLC
03-02-2011, 11:22 AM
Oh sure, David,
that bucket holds about 2 gallons of water. And I am thinking it would work faster if the water was warm, or perhaps even heated to about 80. Anybody tried this? No way I could experiment with 500 pounds. I would be difficult to dry the seed. You would do that amount within your hydroseeder tank, I suppose.

However, here are the photos of the new sprouts. The pre-soaked are in the red and white heart-decorated mug. Tallest sprout is about a half-inch high. There are tiny beginning sprouts of the non pre-soaked seed in the purple mug. Probably not visible, yet.

Smallaxe
03-02-2011, 01:59 PM
... The pre-soaked are in the red and white heart-decorated mug. Tallest sprout is about a half-inch high. There are tiny beginning sprouts of the non pre-soaked seed in the purple mug. Probably not visible, yet.

One of the most important aspect about seeding a lawn is that it stay consistantly wet. If a seedling sprouts and grows a root into the ground as it should, then the ground is allowed to dry, your sprouts will die...

If a bag of seed gets wet in winter storage and soaks up enough water to to break throuh the 'protection layer' for the seed, the seed will rot and die...

The germ of the seed provides the new plant with enough energy to put out a root, that in turns makes the new plant self sufficient... If that root dries out the plant will die...

Did your "presoaked" seed dry out, then be rehydrated? and sprout more quickly than the 'nonpresoaked'?... :)

RigglePLC
03-02-2011, 10:14 PM
Water was poured off. The presoaked seed was dried on paper towels over a wire mesh. Dried for a couple of hours. I retained a sample of the dried seed. And yes, it did sprout more quickly--about 24 hours faster.
Here is a good discussion of presoaking by Judy Brede, of Jacklin seed.

http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/grnma/article/1990jan18.pdf

She mentions a temp of 77 degrees, and improved results from adding Gibberallic acid. She discusses chemical seed inhibitors contained in the seed that must be allowed to evaporate, or be washed away.

RigglePLC
03-02-2011, 10:34 PM
And data from Iowa State University. Use of pregermination on atheletic fields.
http://www.hort.iastate.edu/turfgrass/extension/EGathfldpregerm.pdf

DavidNJ
03-03-2011, 01:06 AM
This probably rates a new thread, but I found this study of using Gibberellic Acid:

http://turf.uark.edu/research/research%20series/475/TURFGRASS%20SEED%20GERMINATION%20AS%20INFLUENCED%20BY%20TEMPERATURE%20AND%20PLANT%20GROWTH%20REGULAT ORS.pdf

http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/gcman/article/1959may30.pdf

That second one is a bit old.

The Gibberellic acid in one test is from Micro Flo PGR IV. This is the label which has instructions for application to turf grass plantings; seed recommendations appear to be limited to crops:

http://www.golf-venture.com/labels/PGRIV167.pdf

However Micro Flo was acquired from BASF by a Japanese company in 2006; PGRIV no longer seems to be available. Other GA3 sources appear to be lab grade and price.

Smallaxe
03-03-2011, 12:43 PM
Water was poured off. The presoaked seed was dried on paper towels over a wire mesh. Dried for a couple of hours. I retained a sample of the dried seed. And yes, it did sprout more quickly--about 24 hours faster.
Here is a good discussion of presoaking by Judy Brede, of Jacklin seed.

http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/grnma/article/1990jan18.pdf

She mentions a temp of 77 degrees, and improved results from adding Gibberallic acid. She discusses chemical seed inhibitors contained in the seed that must be allowed to evaporate, or be washed away.

This is a good article, Riggle... :) It makes thenecessary distinctions...

*** "Seed priming or "osmoconditioning" is a seed pretreatment where moisture is controlled, allowing the seed to be brought through the germination process just up to, but not including, root and shoot emergence. Nothing breaks the seed coat.

*** The difference between presoaking and priming is important to understand. In priming the root and shoot do not break through the seed coat. The seed can be dried back and planted dry by traditional methods without any physical damage to the seed."

RigglePLC
03-03-2011, 01:37 PM
Here are the photos of Scotts "High Traffic" seed (a mixture high in perennial rye). Sown on top of 6 inches of snow. Temp 32. On Feb 25, 2011. Area is thin due to shade problems in recent years.

I did not have skiis on my spreader. I used a small "organ grinder" spreader and walked around in the snow in a 10 foot circle twice. It snowed an inch or two in the following few days. Temp today is 34. Snow still present.

Smallaxe
03-03-2011, 02:44 PM
Here are the photos of Scotts "High Traffic" seed (a mixture high in perennial rye). Sown on top of 6 inches of snow. Temp 32. On Feb 25, 2011. Area is thin due to shade problems in recent years.

I did not have skiis on my spreader. I used a small "organ grinder" spreader and walked around in the snow in a 10 foot circle twice. It snowed an inch or two in the following few days. Temp today is 34. Snow still present.

Watch and see where the seed goes as the snow melts and the seed finally makes contact with the soil... :)

DavidNJ
03-03-2011, 03:32 PM
It does seem like priming, does have a significant improvement in germination. The question is how much Gibberellic acid or adenosine monophosphate (the ingredient in Conklin Amplify) add in that and weather they are cost effective.

This was an interesting presentation about growing turf in the shade: https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/tlcheck/web/MG07shade.ppt

RigglePLC
03-04-2011, 09:04 PM
After 8 days, the pre-soaked rye seed sprouted to about 1.75 inches high. The non pre-soaked seed was about 1.25 inches high. Temp about 66 degrees.
Possibly mowable in two weeks.

DavidNJ
03-05-2011, 01:59 AM
with or without irrigation?

RigglePLC
03-05-2011, 10:04 AM
There is no irrigation, but soil is kept moist with manual watering. Remember this is inside in two coffee mugs. See pics above.

Outdoor seed experiment. Seed applied on top of snow. Seed became slightly more visible as a bit of snow melted, but still about 3 inches of snow.

RigglePLC
03-10-2011, 09:05 PM
Here is an update. First pic shows similar to above picture. Pre soaked seed came up about 24 hours earlier (in mug with red hearts), at about 5 days after planting.
Second pics show results at about 11 days after planting. Pre-soaked seed in red and white mug was about 3.5 inches tall, and the untreated control was about 3 inches tall. Mowable--maybe. The grass blades are probably perennial ryegrass. Indoors, but temp was only about 65.

Also seed (High Traffic Mix), planted on top of snow in a plastic tub outside. Snow partially melted. Temp at this time 32. Planted Feb 25, 2011.

Smallaxe
03-11-2011, 08:47 AM
Is your snow cup inside @ 32 degrees or outside? Does it have sun?

RigglePLC
03-11-2011, 11:34 AM
The seed was sown on top of about 6 inches of snow, February 26, 2011. I used Scotts "High Traffic Mix"--which is high in perennial rye. The snow tub is outside. Temps have been about 20 to 40 degrees in last two weeks. Area has morning sun. Snow melting. No sign of germination--of course.

On the other hand, in the second experiment, I soaked a new sample of the same seed for 72 hours (changing the water at 12 hour intervals). I then dried the seed fully and planted it on March 8, 2011. I planted untreated seed for comparison. And I planted a sample of the seed that had been soaked 24 hours and then dried for about a week. I kept all three containers slightly warmer, near a heat register, about 65 to 75.

The results so far are that the soaked seed sample has germinated. The sprouts are up to a height of about 1/4 inch. March 8 to March 11--or 72 hours.

DavidNJ
03-11-2011, 11:50 AM
It seems clear that soaked seed has higher germination rates and more even germination. However, it also more vulnerable to insufficient irrigation after germination since the moisture at germination wasn't provided by nature or the installed system.

The bigger question may be whether it is worth the extra cost and effort for the amount of enhanced result. For a small patch or a sports field that has to be ready at a specific date. However, for overseeding or renovation of a mid- to large-sized residential or commercial lawn, does it make sense and cents?

ChiTownAmateur
03-11-2011, 05:04 PM
For commercial uses it does have it's benefits. For homeowners my 2c for now anyway is that for a lazy homeowner unwilling to water or use timers, or for a land area that is not practical to water, I would suggest it. but for homeowners who were lazy I would not offer it as a first choice, I would let them know it can be done but that fall seeding (or spring, if need be) is preferable. Mostly because of the variability of the result as you guys discussed throughout this thread.

ChiTownAmateur
03-11-2011, 05:08 PM
I've said this before but if he was in my area Riggle would be my lawn guy simply because he loves this stuff so much it's not just about work for him, it's truly a passion. Instead of just reading up or asking questions the guy just does the experiment himself.

RigglePLC
03-13-2011, 08:24 PM
Thank you very much--true--I am a bit of a grass nerd.

The pre-soak seed results so far.
Seed soaked 72 hours, and dried for 2 hours: sprouted about 1/4 inch tall at 3 days.
Seed soaked 24 hours and dried for 12 days: sprouted at 4 days.
Seed from the package direct: sprouted at 5 days.

Seed outside in the snow: settled gently down to soil as snow melted. No sign of movement.

Smallaxe
03-14-2011, 07:28 AM
Thank you very much--true--I am a bit of a grass nerd.

The pre-soak seed results so far.
Seed soaked 72 hours, and dried for 2 hours: sprouted about 1/4 inch tall at 3 days.
Seed soaked 24 hours and dried for 12 days: sprouted at 4 days.
Seed from the package direct: sprouted at 5 days.

Seed outside in the snow: settled gently down to soil as snow melted. No sign of movement.

This infrmation can be used in another way if one utilizes a way to sow the wet seed... It can spend its '12 hrs drying time' while on the lawn and if it never dries as it sits there, so much th better...

Let us know if your seed on the snow actually works its way into the soil during the freeze/thaw cycle once the snow is completely gone...

DavidNJ
03-14-2011, 09:42 AM
Have you tried a soaked for 12 hours, dried for 12 hours, done 2x or 3x? It was suggested somewhere using 55gal drums and just leaving the seed in the bag.

RigglePLC
03-14-2011, 09:28 PM
I have not tried above, 12 wet 12 dry, but of course the seed would probably not dry out enough to be used in a seeder in 12 hours still in the (open weave) bag.

I put the grass seedlings from 5 days ago outside in the garden--it looked Ok even tho it went down to 20 degrees last night.

bx24
03-27-2011, 03:53 PM
I get seed for free, so I put down 500 lbs (1/2 acre lot) of landscaper Pro mix last week in MA. See what happens..

Barefoot James
03-27-2011, 04:31 PM
Dude you wasted a loooot of seed. 10 pounds per 1000 is the max. 22 pounds is stupid (really it is) Too much seed is worse than not enough. I have had great results @ 3 pounds a 1000. It might come up great but soon die out due to lack of nutrients/space and a breeding ground this summer for fungus! Bad move.

DavidNJ
03-27-2011, 08:36 PM
Of course that depends on the size of the seed. However, tall fescue is still only 6-8lb/1000sqft, so a half acre would be under 180lbs. For KBG it would be a lot less.

RigglePLC
03-27-2011, 08:38 PM
I checked the seed sown on top of snow in two places last February. As snow melted it dropped down to the soil just fine. It was much colder than usual this week. It froze and thawed at least 7 times. The soil was disturbed, puckered, forming tiny peaks and valleys. I could not tell how much seed buried itself, but plenty of seed was still on the surface. Temp was 16 last night. Stay tuned.

I plan to plant some presoaked and non-presoaked seed when the soil temp comes up to about 45.

Perhaps the above Bx24 guy that planted 500 pounds of seed meant to say 50 lbs. Well?

And of course, Small, if you can sow the soaked seed without drying it--so much the better.

CHARLES CUE
03-27-2011, 08:54 PM
I checked the seed sown on top of snow in two places last February. As snow melted it dropped down to the soil just fine. It was much colder than usual this week. It froze and thawed at least 7 times. The soil was disturbed, puckered, forming tiny peaks and valleys. I could not tell how much seed buried itself, but plenty of seed was still on the surface. Temp was 16 last night. Stay tuned.

I plan to plant some presoaked and non-presoaked seed when the soil temp comes up to about 45.

Perhaps the above Bx24 guy that planted 500 pounds of seed meant to say 50 lbs. Well?

And of course, Small, if you can sow the soaked seed without drying it--so much the better.

If you had a Hydra seeder you could soak it than spray it ! that would work

We always soak garden seeds.

Charles Cue

grassman177
03-27-2011, 10:12 PM
all the dormant seeding we did back in early december or so is coming up like crazy now. job well done! thanks, i am up for giving lessons now! ahahhaha

BostonBull
03-27-2011, 10:24 PM
After reading this thread, I threw down some seed 2 weeks ago. We'll see what happens in the coming weeks as temps rise and the seed starts to sprout......hopefully!

DavidNJ
03-28-2011, 01:12 AM
Perhaps the above Bx24 guy that planted 500 pounds of seed meant to say 50 lbs. Well?


That would have worked for KBG. However, he said 'landscapers mix'. Isn't that usually mostly perennial ryegrass?

Smallaxe
03-28-2011, 07:52 AM
Great experiment Riggle, thanks for keeping us updated...

I'm jealous that Kanas already has dormant seed sprouting...

grassman177
03-28-2011, 08:10 AM
yup, but it got back to freezing again and hard to do any work!

RigglePLC
03-28-2011, 07:21 PM
Turned unusually cold here. Soil temp about 35 degrees on sunny west side of house. But more shady east side--no reading--thermometer would not penetrate the soil in container, soil frozen.

Smallaxe
03-29-2011, 09:11 AM
Turned unusually cold here. Soil temp about 35 degrees on sunny west side of house. But more shady east side--no reading--thermometer would not penetrate the soil in container, soil frozen.

Hahaha, this is definately a disappointing Spring... that snow we got last week is still frozen hard enough to drive on... :)

DavidNJ
03-29-2011, 04:37 PM
Is that a comment on the politics or the weather?

Smallaxe
03-29-2011, 04:45 PM
It wasn't a disappointing politcal Spring in that, I'm a homeowner and businessman that may be able to take a breath, from one of the highest taxing states in the Union... That's "Union of States" not Union of mafia.... :)