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Landscape Poet
12-06-2010, 09:31 PM
Guys,


Here is the background. I have a client that wanted sod installed as chinch bugs destroyed a good part of his lawn this summer. He had some sod work done in the early spring before I picked him up and the contractor had did a absolute crap job ( loose seems, grass was yellow/orange with fungus) so he then called me.

Well i told him that I really thought fall and winter was the best time to install - so he held off. He called a couple of weeks wanting to know about sod - I went over and measured him up and gave him the numbers. He struggled with the numbers for a little while (which I can understand with Christmas right around the corner and it was more than what he paid for before) but he finally called a couple weeks ago and said go ahead.

So here is where the issues start and I need your experience if you have experience in FL with our sod or you have good knowledge about sod installation/soil mgmt etc.
So after receiving the call, I call my removal guy and schedule the removal. Removal happens a few days later ( last Wed.) . Removal goes well and gets complete, but the issue with completing the job last week was that the sod farm said the sod in the field they were cutting currently was not speck. So we asked when they would be in a good field and could deliver 10 pallets of good sod. We were told this week so we scheduled for drop today in the afternoon. Sod gets here and it is in great shape, looks very good.

Problem is that the weather conditions have dropped and it is currently going to be in the low 30's tonight and be in the mid to upper 30's for the next few nights with day time highs in the mid 60s and 70s over the next few days. My friend who is supervising the install and is a Master Gardener called his instructor at the extension who said it should be fine to still install the sod and it would be fine as long as we did not get long periods of freeze, for example a week or two like last week.


My question is this - what can I expect from the sod. Will it just take longer for the sod to grab? This is what I expected, but any other concerns?

How about watering it? I usually leave the customer instructions to water daily or as needed until it has soaked through the layer of sod and reached the soil underneath. I am thinking with the current conditions it might be best for him to water lightly first thing in the morning to bring the sod back up in temp after the low 30's at night and then allow it to bask in the FL sun all day long rather than try to water several times a day to get it constantly moist like you would with a spring or summer install.

So what are your all's opinion on watering? How long it will take for the sod to grab etc. Your input is appreciated.

Thanks,

Michael

Patriot Services
12-07-2010, 12:10 PM
I'm still laying sod. I just get real picky if the sod is dry, thin or bad color I refuse the whole lot. I usually up the starter fert too so it can store up as much as possible before it goes dormant. My opinion on the water is continue several times a day for 2 weeks. I feel the very dry air we have now evaporates a lot before it gets taken up. Just my way but it has worked every year until the day temps stay below 50.
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RAlmaroad
12-07-2010, 12:35 PM
Michael:
Pour the water to the sod for at least two weeks. Light watering will not get the roots wet to grab the soil underneath. Roll it of course. I just put down a pallet the first of November. It is beautiful now with watering every day for about two hours the first two weeks. Of course with the sand it needs that amount. Remember to water deep. Light watering will evaporate and do nothing for the roots. Should be fine. In SC, the sod farm that I deal with, cuts about every day so someone is putting it down.
Roy

Kiril
12-07-2010, 01:40 PM
Michael:
Pour the water to the sod for at least two weeks. Light watering will not get the roots wet to grab the soil underneath.

This is categorically untrue. Roots need oxygen to grow. Keeping your soil and sod saturated is the best way to extend the time it takes to get the sod established, not reduce it. Watering sod on clay, or even pure sand, for two hours is simply ridiculous, and is a tremendous waste of water even in the summer heat. Then there are the nutrients you are leaching out of the profile due to the potentially massive amounts of water you are applying. Yikes :dizzy:

@Michael

With sod, you obviously need to keep it moist throughout the day. Depending on the soil it has been installed on, the amount of water to keep that soil at or near field capacity, which is the moisture level that will be the most conducive to fast establishment, will vary tremendously. For example, sod on clay. The irrigation required to keep the sod moist throughout the day will be more than adequate to keep the soil moist, if not saturated. For sand or a sandy soil, you may need to water more frequently to keep the soil moist, but at this time of year and environmental conditions (say temps not exceeding 70 F), I would think once a day, around mid day, would be adequate, regardless of the soil type. The run time depends on what type of sprinklers, the efficiency of the system, and the soil type. That said, the only way to be sure is to monitor your soil moisture for the first couple of days, and add/subtract from the run time as needed to keep the sod moist, and at the same time providing enough water to keep the soil at or near field capacity.

In my soils at this time of year, rotors will get about 5-20 minutes, sprays 3-5 minutes for a relatively efficient system. Even at these short run times the soil will get and stay saturated, especially with the additional rain inputs.

I agree with the freeze assessment. As long as you don't get an extended freeze, overnight temps in the high 20's shouldn't generate that much concern. If you expect there will be a potential for an extended frost/freeze in your area, it might not be a bad idea to do a short irrigation towards the end of the day, and again in the early morning. If there is a certain chance of freeze damage, then you are probably looking at doing the same as would be done for freeze sensitive crops, although that may not be an option.

Ric
12-07-2010, 06:12 PM
Guys,


Here is the background. I have a client that wanted sod installed as chinch bugs destroyed a good part of his lawn this summer. He had some sod work done in the early spring before I picked him up and the contractor had did a absolute crap job ( loose seems, grass was yellow/orange with fungus) so he then called me.

Your Customer should of called a real Professional with a L&O Pesticide License to fix the problem.


Well i told him that I really thought fall and winter was the best time to install - so he held off.

Once again the customer got the wrong advice. Fall and Winter are our dry season and while Sod will grow that time of year, Summer rains and heat have better success on establishing sod.

He called a couple of weeks wanting to know about sod - I went over and measured him up and gave him the numbers. He struggled with the numbers for a little while (which I can understand with Christmas right around the corner and it was more than what he paid for before) but he finally called a couple weeks ago and said go ahead.

So here is where the issues start and I need your experience if you have experience in FL with our sod or you have good knowledge about sod installation/soil mgmt etc.
So after receiving the call, I call my removal guy and schedule the removal. Removal happens a few days later ( last Wed.) . Removal goes well and gets complete, but the issue with completing the job last week was that the sod farm said the sod in the field they were cutting currently was not speck. So we asked when they would be in a good field and could deliver 10 pallets of good sod. We were told this week so we scheduled for drop today in the afternoon. Sod gets here and it is in great shape, looks very good.

Problem is that the weather conditions have dropped and it is currently going to be in the low 30's tonight and be in the mid to upper 30's for the next few nights with day time highs in the mid 60s and 70s over the next few days. My friend who is supervising the install and is a Master Gardener called his instructor at the extension who said it should be fine to still install the sod and it would be fine as long as we did not get long periods of freeze, for example a week or two like last week.


My question is this - what can I expect from the sod. Will it just take longer for the sod to grab? This is what I expected, but any other concerns?

How about watering it? I usually leave the customer instructions to water daily or as needed until it has soaked through the layer of sod and reached the soil underneath. I am thinking with the current conditions it might be best for him to water lightly first thing in the morning to bring the sod back up in temp after the low 30's at night and then allow it to bask in the FL sun all day long rather than try to water several times a day to get it constantly moist like you would with a spring or summer install.

So what are your all's opinion on watering? How long it will take for the sod to grab etc. Your input is appreciated.

Thanks,

Michael

Micheal

In Answer to your PM to me about this thread. Best advice I can give you is to stick to Grass Cutting and leave Lawn Care to those with the Certifications and knowledge to do the job correctly. In this case you have caused the customer more expense with a second sod install when a Real professional might of been able to save the first Sod install. You also advised the customer to install Sod at a unfavorable time of the year causing great expense of Irrigation cost, in a state where water costs like gold. BTW not to say the present cold weather would have been avoided.

If you real want to become a professional then Sign up for the Georgia Turf Grass study program. A local guy bought that program and I have seen it and feel it is very good. BTW I believe it only costs around $ 400.00 which is less than I paid for one semester for college classes.

Landscape Poet
12-07-2010, 10:36 PM
This is categorically untrue. Roots need oxygen to grow. Keeping your soil and sod saturated is the best way to extend the time it takes to get the sod established, not reduce it. Watering sod on clay, or even pure sand, for two hours is simply ridiculous, and is a tremendous waste of water even in the summer heat. Then there are the nutrients you are leaching out of the profile due to the potentially massive amounts of water you are applying. Yikes :dizzy:

@Michael

With sod, you obviously need to keep it moist throughout the day. Depending on the soil it has been installed on, the amount of water to keep that soil at or near field capacity, which is the moisture level that will be the most conducive to fast establishment, will vary tremendously. For example, sod on clay. The irrigation required to keep the sod moist throughout the day will be more than adequate to keep the soil moist, if not saturated. For sand or a sandy soil, you may need to water more frequently to keep the soil moist, but at this time of year and environmental conditions (say temps not exceeding 70 F), I would think once a day, around mid day, would be adequate, regardless of the soil type. The run time depends on what type of sprinklers, the efficiency of the system, and the soil type. That said, the only way to be sure is to monitor your soil moisture for the first couple of days, and add/subtract from the run time as needed to keep the sod moist, and at the same time providing enough water to keep the soil at or near field capacity.

In my soils at this time of year, rotors will get about 5-20 minutes, sprays 3-5 minutes for a relatively efficient system. Even at these short run times the soil will get and stay saturated, especially with the additional rain inputs.

I agree with the freeze assessment. As long as you don't get an extended freeze, overnight temps in the high 20's shouldn't generate that much concern. If you expect there will be a potential for an extended frost/freeze in your area, it might not be a bad idea to do a short irrigation towards the end of the day, and again in the early morning. If there is a certain chance of freeze damage, then you are probably looking at doing the same as would be done for freeze sensitive crops, although that may not be an option.


Kiril,

I appreciate you time and consideration in putting your thoughts into this questions. You know that I respect your knowledge and appreciate all that I have learned through your sharing on this site.
I appreciate you thorough input here.

fl-landscapes
12-07-2010, 10:51 PM
Kiril,

I appreciate you time and consideration in putting your thoughts into this questions. You know that I respect your knowledge and appreciate all that I have learned through your sharing on this site.
I appreciate you thorough input here.

uh oh, you may have a man crush going on:laugh:

Landscape Poet
12-07-2010, 11:05 PM
Micheal

In Answer to your PM to me about this thread. Best advice I can give you is to stick to Grass Cutting and leave Lawn Care to those with the Certifications and knowledge to do the job correctly. In this case you have caused the customer more expense with a second sod install when a Real professional might of been able to save the first Sod install. You also advised the customer to install Sod at a unfavorable time of the year causing great expense of Irrigation cost, in a state where water costs like gold. BTW not to say the present cold weather would have been avoided.

If you real want to become a professional then Sign up for the Georgia Turf Grass study program. A local guy bought that program and I have seen it and feel it is very good. BTW I believe it only costs around $ 400.00 which is less than I paid for one semester for college classes.

Ric,

First let me say that I do respect you also, but let me say that at times your bed side manner leaves a little be desired. I am sure that this is my quick typing last night that did not explain in detail the full issue here.

First - I think you are getting sassy because you are thinking that I took over the PCO portion of the lawn care. That is incorrect - I have a licensed PCO that I hand all of my clients....so NO .....THEY COULD NOT SAVE THIS TURF......in fact I worked with them on what areas they thought could be saved and what they thought needed replaced. Areas that they felt they could bring together quickly....areas less than 18 inches in Diameter .....were left according to what they felt about the areas. They have been servicing the account since I took it over and TG went away. So again you are pulling the trigger on a issue that is not a concern, but yet you try to say leave it to a real professional?????? Ric, I am BMP certified , have my limited as well continue to take many workshops at the County Extension to continue my education beyond the need of my Continuing Education Credits....so please take the I am a Licensed PCO attitude and go somewhere else with it. I asked for your insights in regards to this because I feel that you are knowledgeable and respect your education. What I get out of a simple request for some insight on your part is YET ANOTHER degrading remark by RIC......speaking to me like I am just some smuck that mows the lawns short and flies through clients lawns and hacks their shrub. Now do not get me wrong - I may not posses your knowledge base and have your education - if I did - why would I ask you a question? But what I and I am sure others would appreciate if you gave your opinion like Kiril did - and not try to degrade me in the process. I am educated Ric - I do have a BS in Bus. Mgmt with a minor focusing on Human Resource Mgmt.....but this is what I enjoy...so please do not talk down to me because I have not yet went through the processes to get a full PCO license.....I am working my way .....please respect me and if you are not willing to give your insight to others......then why are you on this site? Just to inform everyone that you are LICENSED PCO?

In reguards to the sod job that was laid previously - it was earlier this summer ......it was full of fungus - so much so that it was almost orange...this was on the day of install....I personally seen it then as I service several accounts on that block.....seems were gapping in areas several inches etc etc.

Now even though I do not have a license Ric.....I do take the time to visit Sod Farms.....see what is going on where I am buying from....have a working relationship with several suppliers who know that if they send sh*t sod....it will get sent back on the truck....so I get quailty product because I insist on it. The install site is always cut with a bob cat and/or sod cutter and then the appropriate grading is applied.....then the sod is installed in nice tight brick formations with virtually no seems. This is more than 99.9% of others that do this , including companies that do nothing but sod installations and because of the quality I do...that is why this part of the business is bringing in more and more revenue each month, as you know word of mouth does wonders, because I do not even advertise this service, no have I ever that I am aware of.

Not trying to be a prick to you Ric, but I asked your opinion, on a site which is based on discussions of the green industries, and you do not give it but rather give another lecture on how us simple "Lawn Boys" can not do anything right because we do not have our PCO license. It was a simple request to get your input.

In regards to your PM - I understand that some people pay you for your knowledge - but again - this site is one which is about the green industry....what the hell are you doing on here if you which not to give your opinion.

And yes, I did not give you a link directly to this thread, I am SOOOOOO sorry that you had to look through my post and click on the second one down and read it from there....I bet you must be just plum wore out from that huh.

Come on Ric,

People here that respect your opinion here that ask you a question, give it , just like Kiril did. Do you think you are game for that without all the lectures about having a PCO....especially in a case like this were it was not even relevant?

Landscape Poet
12-07-2010, 11:08 PM
uh oh, you may have a man crush going on:laugh:

No Man Crush... I just respected his professionalism. He gave his opinion ....and from the man that probably has the most education on this site in regards to our industry.....no lectures about not knowing as much as he did (being a real professional) ...he just gave his input, one of which I asked for, because he obviously knows what he is talking about.

Landscape Poet
12-07-2010, 11:36 PM
I'm still laying sod. I just get real picky if the sod is dry, thin or bad color I refuse the whole lot. I usually up the starter fert too so it can store up as much as possible before it goes dormant. My opinion on the water is continue several times a day for 2 weeks. I feel the very dry air we have now evaporates a lot before it gets taken up. Just my way but it has worked every year until the day temps stay below 50.
Posted via Mobile Device

Thanks for your thought Patriot. I do not use a start fert on my installs unless the company I partner with does it and I am not sure what they use, I think the put down something like a 0-0-22 if I remember right, but not sure...but the traditional starter fertilizer I stopped a couple years ago on installs where they do not have a service because the extension stopped recommending it. I believe their thoughts were that it would essentially just go to run off because of the excessive watering on new sod and the leaching. I have just taken that approach and not had any issues. On a few installs I have had clients insist that I put down a starter fertilizer....I have put down milorganite -and to be honest - I do not see a huge difference in the establishment time of the lawns treated in the past and the ones now.
Check with your extension office and see if they say the same about not fertilizing new sod too...because if they do you could save the expense and save our aquifers

Landscape Poet
12-08-2010, 12:13 AM
@ Kiril

In regards to the watering amount.....I attached a hose end sprinkler for the client while on the property today and did a "catch can collection" with some nice large rain gauges. On average the water supply was taking about 1 hour to deliver 1 inch of water to the areas it was spraying.
I left the client with instructions to water 1/2 inch twice a day at min., I left gauges with client so that he could monitor amount of water being applied each watering. I told him that all though evaporation rates should not be as high as in our warm season, I felt that several lighter applications each day totaling 1 inch of water would be better after the initial soaking, preferably in a manner in which the leave blade would not be left overly moist going into the overnight period ( trying to get most of it done throughout the day while the sun still is present and could help dry the leaf blades).

unkownfl
12-08-2010, 01:48 AM
Not to state the obvious, but why didn't you just ask the farm you got it from? Do they not warranty the SOD? I wouldn't recommend one inch of irrigation daily this time of the year on new sod.

Landscape Poet
12-08-2010, 02:51 AM
Not to state the obvious, but why didn't you just ask the farm you got it from? Do they not warranty the SOD? I wouldn't recommend one inch of irrigation daily this time of the year on new sod.

Yep, even asked them, as you are local you will know that the local extension teacher that we talked to was Tom Maccubbin, just was wanting to approach the situation with as much info as I could as I was not expecting this cold snap when putting the plans in place.

Got the sod from Kirkland Sod over in New Smyrna as we were also doing a property with Palmetto also and since they are the farm that developed Palmetto, figured they were a good choice after visiting the farm. Warranty for the Sod? Might as well forget that....to many variables not many that I know who would do this for contractors in this area. As far as what the farm said....same basic misunderstanding....got the simple instructions to water it for 45 minutes each day ....twice a day....and of course the problem with this is not knowing how much water is being provided through the irrigation system during that 45 minutes...so yes...there advice was not anything to helpful.

fl-landscapes
12-08-2010, 09:08 AM
Mike, no doubt kiril has knowledge, however you realize he is in California and any of his knowledge about St Augustine sod intsall or maintenance would be speculation and based on books. No offense to Kiril but I suggest you take the advice of the FL guys on this one. And before you stroke him too hard look up his threads in the past and you will see he has the same bedside manners as you mentioned ric has at times. In my opinion your biggest mistake was purposely putting off the install this summer for the fall, the summer hot rainy months are the best time to sod warm season grass.

Patriot Services
12-08-2010, 09:14 AM
Thanks for your thought Patriot. I do not use a start fert on my installs unless the company I partner with does it and I am not sure what they use, I think the put down something like a 0-0-22 if I remember right, but not sure...but the traditional starter fertilizer I stopped a couple years ago on installs where they do not have a service because the extension stopped recommending it. I believe their thoughts were that it would essentially just go to run off because of the excessive watering on new sod and the leaching. I have just taken that approach and not had any issues. On a few installs I have had clients insist that I put down a starter fertilizer....I have put down milorganite -and to be honest - I do not see a huge difference in the establishment time of the lawns treated in the past and the ones now.
Check with your extension office and see if they say the same about not fertilizing new sod too...because if they do you could save the expense and save our aquifers
I think our window for laying sod just closed. A lot of good info in this thread albeit a little harsh in the wording. I have taken to only doing complete sod jobs. If they just want throw and go, they're not for me. Soil and irrigation analysis are not options. "Pouring" water on is a flat ******ed statement and was probably the reason the first install failed. The problem usually lies with the HO that doesn't get it.
Posted via Mobile Device

Patriot Services
12-08-2010, 09:20 AM
Mike, no doubt kiril has knowledge, however you realize he is in California and any of his knowledge about St Augustine sod intsall or maintenance would be speculation and based on books. No offense to Kiril but I suggest you take the advice of the FL guys on this one. And before you stroke him too hard look up his threads in the past and you will see he has the same bedside manners as you mentioned ric has at times. In my opinion your biggest mistake was purposely putting off the install this summer for the fall, the summer hot rainy months are the best time to sod warm season grass.

Kiril is a Florida OG from back in the iron and brass irrigation days.
Posted via Mobile Device

fl-landscapes
12-08-2010, 09:23 AM
Kiril is a Florida OG from back in the iron and brass irrigation days.
Posted via Mobile Device

Then he should have pointed out the timing is off like you and I and Ric did.

Ric
12-08-2010, 10:40 AM
Not to state the obvious, but why didn't you just ask the farm you got it from? Do they not warranty the SOD? I wouldn't recommend one inch of irrigation daily this time of the year on new sod.

Unknown

There is a lot of OBVIOUS here that is going over some heads like a hot air balloon. :dizzy:

Kiril
12-08-2010, 11:30 AM
@ Kiril

In regards to the watering amount.....I attached a hose end sprinkler for the client while on the property today and did a "catch can collection" with some nice large rain gauges. On average the water supply was taking about 1 hour to deliver 1 inch of water to the areas it was spraying.
I left the client with instructions to water 1/2 inch twice a day at min., I left gauges with client so that he could monitor amount of water being applied each watering. I told him that all though evaporation rates should not be as high as in our warm season, I felt that several lighter applications each day totaling 1 inch of water would be better after the initial soaking, preferably in a manner in which the leave blade would not be left overly moist going into the overnight period ( trying to get most of it done throughout the day while the sun still is present and could help dry the leaf blades).

1" of water/day is way too much. That said, you application rate will be dictated by your low quarter, and given there is no real irrigation (why not?), the ability to accurately determine your low quarter is difficult. Let me demonstrate why it is too much water. I will use a fine sand as an example, even though your soil is most likely not a fine sand, and therefore will hold more water than a fine sand.

The water holding capacity of a fine sand is roughly 0.75-1.00 inches/foot. According to this site (http://www.rivercityweather.net/), ET in the Jacksonville area was 0.067 inches yesterday. In a single day at a 1" AR, you have met or exceeded the soils water holding capacity. Lets assume for simplicity sake that the soil has 1" of plant available water. At the above ET rate, it will take 15 days to go through that amount of water. So are you beginning to see why 1" of water/day is way too much?


Mike, no doubt kiril has knowledge, however you realize he is in California and any of his knowledge about St Augustine sod intsall or maintenance would be speculation and based on books. No offense to Kiril but I suggest you take the advice of the FL guys on this one. And before you stroke him too hard look up his threads in the past and you will see he has the same bedside manners as you mentioned ric has at times. In my opinion your biggest mistake was purposely putting off the install this summer for the fall, the summer hot rainy months are the best time to sod warm season grass.

Not speculation .... extensive knowledge (both field and formal) of plants, soils and irrigation. I am curious though, is there something special about FL that makes it different than every other location St. Augustine is grown? How about irrigation? Is irrigation somehow different in FL than it is for the rest of the world? Is my above example enough to demonstrate most people don't know the first thing about proper irrigation?

FYI, anyone here who is commenting on a site unseen is speculating. Furthermore I never have degraded someone like Ric does on a regular basis on this site for absolutely no good reason. Now if you want to provide a link to a post where I have attacked & degraded someone for absolutely no good reason like Ric has in this thread, then by all means please do and I will formally apologize. If you can't provide this quote, then you might consider keeping your unsubstantiated opinions to yourself. Before you start C&P, you had better check the context of the post, because if my post is a result of being attacked by the likes of Ric, then you better keep looking.

Kiril
12-08-2010, 11:33 AM
Kiril is a Florida OG from back in the iron and brass irrigation days.

Actually, I lived in NW FL for 5 years.

Landscape Poet
12-08-2010, 01:14 PM
Mike, no doubt kiril has knowledge, however you realize he is in California and any of his knowledge about St Augustine sod intsall or maintenance would be speculation and based on books. I also knew that he had worked here previously FL-Landscapes, but that was not my concern, my issue was getting his input because he has a grasp on soil mgmt for sure - and I knew he would be a good source of information if he posted, the 1 thing about Kiril you can always count on, is if he puts it out there other than saying IMHO, he can back it up with peer reviewed research. So his advise is usually pretty reliable IMHO.





No offense to Kiri
][l but I suggest you take the advice of the FL guys on this one. I do also value your guys input also...trust me I know you guys see the same things I see day in and day out...but I have learned to follow some guys on the site because they obviously have a greater than common knowledge. Like I said before I respect ric and his knowledge...and would of valued his opinion...that is why I asked for it too. I just not need to be lectured about not being "smart" and being a "lawn boy" because I do not hold the same license that he does.


And before you stroke him too hard look up his threads in the past and you will see he has the same bedside manners as you mentioned ric has at times. I know that Kiril can see harsh at times...but generally what that in my experience with him has been this, he provides links to support his information or opinion to creditable sources. Then when people still want to argue the point it can get ugly, because he has put the proof up and they just want to argue. Do not get me wrong - Kiril - can be a little hard to follow at times to - but I personally have never found him to be degrading to me personally.



In my opinion your biggest mistake was purposely putting off the install this summer for the fall, the summer hot rainy months are the best time to sod warm season grass. This was not my mistake - I told the client it was best not to due it during the heat of the summer - as it would not be facing the heat pressures we have - or the pest pressure - I was specifically talking about a fall install not a winter. But the client did not ask until as I have said less than a month ago and then he thought about the price tag and got back to me, but even with this late install I was not expecting the frost to even be present because it happend early this early.
And I would consider sod solutions a pretty credible source of info wouldn't you?

As you can see they list sod as being able to be installed anytime of year - and that the summer period is not the idea time the suggested - http://www.sodsolutions.com/palmetto_faqs#248

Landscape Poet
12-08-2010, 01:15 PM
1" of water/day is way too much. That said, you application rate will be dictated by your low quarter, and given there is no real irrigation (why not?), the ability to accurately determine your low quarter is difficult. Let me demonstrate why it is too much water. I will use a fine sand as an example, even though your soil is most likely not a fine sand, and therefore will hold more water than a fine sand.

The water holding capacity of a fine sand is roughly 0.75-1.00 inches/foot. According to this site (http://www.rivercityweather.net/), ET in the Jacksonville area was 0.067 inches yesterday. In a single day at a 1" AR, you have met or exceeded the soils water holding capacity. Lets assume for simplicity sake that the soil has 1" of plant available water. At the above ET rate, it will take 15 days to go through that amount of water. So are you beginning to see why 1" of water/day is way too much?


I am looking into your info know and seeing your point of view here I think.
I will let you know if I am not following what you are saying.

Kiril
12-08-2010, 02:08 PM
This was not my mistake - I told the client it was best not to due it during the heat of the summer - as it would not be facing the heat pressures we have - or the pest pressure - I was specifically talking about a fall install not a winter. But the client did not ask until as I have said less than a month ago and then he thought about the price tag and got back to me, but even with this late install I was not expecting the frost to even be present because it happend early this early.
And I would consider sod solutions a pretty credible source of info wouldn't you?

As you can see they list sod as being able to be installed anytime of year - and that the summer period is not the idea time the suggested - http://www.sodsolutions.com/palmetto_faqs#248

Aside from getting your source of water from rain (which would be preferred on a site without automatic irrigation), there is nothing wrong with laying sod now in FL. If you look at the soil temps on that site I posted a link to, 7 days ago (Dec 1) the soil temp was 68 F. Given root growth for C4 grasses starts to slow when soils temps fall below 50 F, IMO you were not entirely out of line to suggest a fall/early winter install. Contrary to what some might want to believe, slowed/halted top growth does not necessarily mean slowed/halted root growth. Will it take longer to establish sod at this time of year ..... yes. Is it impossible to establish sod at this time of year in FL .... no. Is it the best time of year to establish sod .... no. Irregardless, the job is either done or in the process of being finished, whether or not it is the best time is irrelevant.

BTW, I may as well point out, given some people on here seem to think we don't use St. Augustine in CA, that SA has been used in CA for over 200 years, very nearly as long as it has been used in FL.

I am looking into your info know and seeing your point of view here I think. I will let you know if I am not following what you are saying.

Consider how thick the sod soil/roots is (probably 3/4" +/- 1/4"), this is what you are concerned with keeping moist and what your calculations should be based on. Making up for the irrigation inefficiencies will most likely provide more than enough water to keep the underlying soil moist. Once again, your low quarter is going to determine how much water you need to apply to keep all the sod moist (not sopping wet). Remember, St. Augustine doesn't deal with water logging very well.

CkLandscapingOrlando
12-08-2010, 05:13 PM
Brother just put the green side up and kick. I layed 15 pallets 3 days before our week long freeze last year. Took a bit longer to florish but as we have discussed a few times this year, everything took a while to florish. Between recored cold and dry summer it was a bad year. But the grass has done just fine.

Who ever was talking smack a few pages back really dont know MGLW.

Landscape Poet
12-08-2010, 06:43 PM
Brother just put the green side up and kick. I layed 15 pallets 3 days before our week long freeze last year. Took a bit longer to florish but as we have discussed a few times this year, everything took a while to florish. Between recored cold and dry summer it was a bad year. But the grass has done just fine.

Who ever was talking smack a few pages back really dont know MGLW.

I figured as much - I do not see it being any worse than laying it during the peak of summer with the heat and insect pressures at that time - yes you can make it live then to but at the cost of what inputs - More water? More Fungicides? More ...More....More?????

Landscape Poet
12-08-2010, 06:49 PM
@Kiril

Let me clear up that there is irrigation in place - there is a system on the property - the issue is that he is on reclaimed - which in our location has been suspect as of late as weather you will actually be able to irrigate on your assigned day because it has been exteamly dry....so a lot of times ---you go to irrigate you lawn -and there is no pressure.

I went by and visited the property today - other than the initial watering we had put down right after install (1 inch) there has been no additional water applied. The base is still good and moist...the soil surface is good and moist.. the turf is looking good...no additional irrigation is needed at this time.

The homeowner should be leaving work in less than a half hour...I am planning to call him and explain that there is not a need for extra watering at this time....we are out of the freeze warning now....temps getting higher the next few days again...should bring soil temps back up again. Then appear they will be in good shape.

Thanks to all that have supplied input.

Landscape Poet
12-08-2010, 06:51 PM
Brother just put the green side up and kick. I layed 15 pallets 3 days before our week long freeze last year. Took a bit longer to florish but as we have discussed a few times this year, everything took a while to florish. Between recored cold and dry summer it was a bad year. But the grass has done just fine.

Who ever was talking smack a few pages back really dont know MGLW.

By the way - good to see you back on here....will be in touch soon...need to get together with you.

Landscape Poet
07-07-2011, 08:52 PM
So many months have past since the installation the night before the first freeze.

Just updating this for those that may search for info on this in the future on the site.


The sod did not take any longer than sod installed in the spring/summer time frame. The irrigation that was most likely much less than what would of been used during the heat of summer as the home owner and I worked closely on checking the base daily and only watering if appeared not to be moist. The sod did not have any issues coming out in spring not also experienced in homes in the area with the same exposures.

I have included a couple of photos of the property taken yesterday during a visit, as you can see the turf is in good shape.