PDA

View Full Version : food safety


treegal1
12-23-2010, 09:43 AM
so the food safety dill passed, dont even get into politricks, you all know my stand on that.

what i want to talk about is the death of organic farming and organic practices in the USA. this is the final nail in the coffin. has anyone seen this??whats the long term economic(treading on thin ice) outcome and what will the impact on organics be. plus is this a sustainable model..................

OrganicsMaine
12-23-2010, 10:09 AM
Who in their right mind thinks that more government oversight will fix this problem. No matter where you fall in the political spectrum, big government is NOT the answer. Bunch of idiots, every last one down there in Washington.

Smallaxe
12-23-2010, 02:01 PM
This only allows the FDA to take out, anybody they feel like. Technically, farmers' markets become illegal, giving a tomato to your neighbor becomes illegal, but they will only go after political enemies or anyone that has property that they want.
No different than the arbitrary shutting down of GM Dealerships, by the new owners of Government Motors.

This may do very well for the Organic/Sustainable Agriculture. With the stroke of a pen FDA can outlaw our entire food supply and order the grocery stores to be emptied. The UN then moves forward on their agenda 21, which will feed a few people left alive.

HayBay
12-23-2010, 02:51 PM
raw milk vs louie pasteur milk.

Barefoot James
12-23-2010, 07:49 PM
links - what happened? Head in sand here - LOL Obama - obrother.:hammerhead:

Tim Wilson
12-23-2010, 08:44 PM
links - what happened? Head in sand here - LOL Obama - obrother.:hammerhead:

Wait... What?

HayBay
12-23-2010, 10:13 PM
House of Representatives Passes FDA Food Safety Bill (Dec 22, 2010)

The House of Representatives today passed the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) Food Safety Bill for a third time by a vote of 215 to 144. During consideration in the Senate, S. 510, FDA Food Safety Modernization Act was attached as a substitute to H.R. 2751. The Senate passed H.R. 2751 during a rare weekend session on Sunday, December 19, 2010, by unanimous consent.

H.R. 2751 would increase government oversight of the food sector by expanding the FDA authority with mandatory recalls, increased inspection rates, collection of fees and require all facilities to have a food safety plan. The bill now heads to the President for his signature.

Click here to see the full bill: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-111hr2751eas/pdf/BILLS-111hr2751eas.pdf

Smallaxe
12-24-2010, 10:39 AM
Do you have a lisence and a safety plan for that tomato? Oh, Oh... there's a spot on that tomato, we'll have to shut you down, and recall all tomatoes at this Market and your 1/2 acre farm will be bankrupted, until we are done testing your operation, in 3-10 years...

They did it already, to the independant cheese producers, and protecting us from 'raw milk'. You like your hormone rich homogenized milk, I do not.

Is your hormone milk, and high cholesterol cheese safe? I just take Lipitor, that makes all the food safe...

Bottom line is... gov't is incapable of regulating our food supply in a one size fits all capacity... The UN will be even worse... Local cheese producers are made to do things that have nothing to do with their operation, because everybody has to be like Kraft... The cities can buy the Kraft Cheese, and the rest of the country can buy local if they want... "Oh no you don't!!!"... Does anyone see the problem here?

phasthound
12-24-2010, 11:22 AM
Do you have a lisence and a safety plan for that tomato? Oh, Oh... there's a spot on that tomato, we'll have to shut you down, and recall all tomatoes at this Market and your 1/2 acre farm will be bankrupted, until we are done testing your operation, in 3-10 years...

They did it already, to the independant cheese producers, and protecting us from 'raw milk'. You like your hormone rich homogenized milk, I do not.

Is your hormone milk, and high cholesterol cheese safe? I just take Lipitor, that makes all the food safe...

Bottom line is... gov't is incapable of regulating our food supply in a one size fits all capacity... The UN will be even worse... Local cheese producers are made to do things that have nothing to do with their operation, because everybody has to be like Kraft... The cities can buy the Kraft Cheese, and the rest of the country can buy local if they want... "Oh no you don't!!!"... Does anyone see the problem here?

What's the solution? Self regulation by huge corporations?

Many years ago I worked at a small meat packing plant that supplied hamburgers to local restaurants. When I started there it was regulated by the State & we might have seen an inspector once a month. Then the Feds took over and we were inspected every morning. I can tell you there was a huge improvement in food safety then. But, that was a long time ago and we don't want to pay for this quality anymore.

Tim Wilson
12-24-2010, 11:31 AM
It seems this bill makes lip service to exempting small farms but has other wording which could include them. Has anyone examined this? It is unfortunate the small community farm has demised because therein is a pretty good food safety self-regulation as the farmer has concern for his neighbors, not just money.

I noticed the muscle behind the bill is provided by the FDA and Homeland Security. Pretty formidable.

Smallaxe
12-24-2010, 04:35 PM
The "Food Safety Bill" is not about 'food safety'. it has been analysed, and as Phasthound, has alluded to, it is all about enforcement. Local farm markets and cheese plants alike are self regulated by means of their very existance.

Kraft and others like them may very well need the oversite of some, Higher Power, because they supply the whole nation. If the Farmers market irritates me I go back to the hormone heavy, antibiotic heavy, pesticide heavy, homogenoized heavy nationally sterilized food supply that exists, in competition with naturally grown, healthy food.

There is nothing wrong with gov't supervision, IMO. But when it steps outside of useful intervention, it should be challenged. Otherwise we have ONLY Kraft for cheese, Tyson for chicken, and OreIda or Del Monte for vegetables!

We do understand the nutritional value of these nation wide brands of food stuffs? Correct?

JDUtah
12-24-2010, 09:53 PM
Running a butcher shop for a branch of the richest company in the world, I can tell you there was much more regulation from a private, third party inspection company than from the government. I believe this is because of two variables: 1- the company likes its money and does everything it can to rule out liability 2- the inspection company was also the company that supplied the cleaning chemicals

About government regulation: I think it is important, but IMO the problem comes in effectiveness. Sometimes the wrong things receive attention.

cgaengineer
12-25-2010, 12:46 AM
Just another tax...move along...
Posted via Mobile Device

treegal1
12-25-2010, 03:33 AM
its so much more than that its a shift a complete shift in our society that is so desperately needed!! there is so many signs and warnings that are taking place every day. why do we stand for it, what are we waiting for, why are we killing our selves. I try and show the ways, I live what i preach. why............

http://www.hulu.com/watch/193726/a-river-of-waste-the-hazardous-truth-about-factory-farms

Smallaxe
12-25-2010, 09:16 AM
Well I didn't watch the 2 hour flick on factory farms, but I watch them evolve and to me the stupidist development is the manure silo. or maybe the dairy cattle that survive only 3 productive yars on concrete and hormones, possibly the hormone fed deformed chickens that can't standup and spend their lives in boxes with millions of others, dead and alive...

Did you know that healthy range chickens don't produce cholesterol from the eggs, nor is cholesterol in cheese produced from grass fed cattle? When animals are raised as God created them, the health hazards go away. Amazing...

NattyLawn
12-25-2010, 09:42 AM
I really don't get this bill, as I don't trust the gov't telling me what to eat or what is "safe" in their view. I'm with Axe, as I get most of my meat, eggs and milk from a pasture raised farm where I know where the animals came from and they ate. I don't want the feedlot raised and hormone fed meat and nutritionally deficient produce shipped across the country or from another country entirely. I think a lot of the cancers that it seems everyone has these days are rooted in the food we eat. A lot of the country is fat and unhealthy.
One of the reasons I gave up trusting the USDA is finding out about free range eggs. To be considered free range, all you have to do is offer an area outside of the chicken house where the birds can go. Too bad the area isn't available for the first 5 weeks of the birds life (for disease purposes) and then it's opened. By then the birds are used to the cramped house and most can't move because they're so top heavy to even get outside. Is that free range? No thanks. I can go to a local farm where I see the free houses and I also see the beef, pork and turkeys in the pasture.

It's funny how the tea partyers disappeared after the Republicans won the House. I saw no one protesting the tax cut extensions or the passage of this (potentially) repressive bill.

OrganicsMaine
12-25-2010, 10:20 AM
Shop with your neighbors....and not just for food.....the gov't is a disaster and the vast majority of the people that get sent down there are idiots that are in it for personal gain only, not the noble act of helping one's country. Those that we may have once thought were for small gov't really aren't and its too bad. When people are doing things based on payoffs and lobbyists, it means nothing good for the "folks".

Oh yeah, Merry Christmas everyone!

Tim Wilson
12-25-2010, 10:42 AM
One of the reasons I gave up trusting the USDA is finding out about free range eggs. To be considered free range, all you have to do is offer an area outside of the chicken house where the birds can go.

Matt,

It's even worse here (BC Canada). I live across from an egg factory farm where they just need to allow the birds to freely roam the building for them to be sold in supermarkets as free range. A semi truck rolls in twice a week to load up. I've been here since June, never seen a chicken and have not seen them scoop out the barn yet. Ten or fifteen years ago one could see farm animals out in the fields in this area. Now it is rare; instead there are giant buildings hiding the tortured souls we consume.

NattyLawn
12-27-2010, 10:49 AM
Matt,

It's even worse here (BC Canada). I live across from an egg factory farm where they just need to allow the birds to freely roam the building for them to be sold in supermarkets as free range. A semi truck rolls in twice a week to load up. I've been here since June, never seen a chicken and have not seen them scoop out the barn yet. Ten or fifteen years ago one could see farm animals out in the fields in this area. Now it is rare; instead there are giant buildings hiding the tortured souls we consume.

Here those birds we consume would be "cage free".

I think there's something to the tortured souls. Stressed animals lead to tough meat. The animals are stressed from birth to death. They can't roam and look for bugs and cows are fed food they can't digest. When a chicken isn't allowed to be a chicken or a cow a cow, what exactly are we eating?
When I talk to people about this I always get the argument "The way you described can't feed everyone". Yes, it can. If land is used efficiently and you follow the pasturing method used by Joel Salatin and others, it works. Cows graze a section and then move on. The chickens are then brought in to do the insect control and fertilize with their manure. Then the pigs. How much fertilizer cost or runoff is their in this system? How much disease?

We need a good thread on lawn care to start....

ICT Bill
12-27-2010, 07:53 PM
Here those birds we consume would be "cage free".

I think there's something to the tortured souls. Stressed animals lead to tough meat. The animals are stressed from birth to death. They can't roam and look for bugs and cows are fed food they can't digest. When a chicken isn't allowed to be a chicken or a cow a cow, what exactly are we eating?
When I talk to people about this I always get the argument "The way you described can't feed everyone". Yes, it can. If land is used efficiently and you follow the pasturing method used by Joel Salatin and others, it works. Cows graze a section and then move on. The chickens are then brought in to do the insect control and fertilize with their manure. Then the pigs. How much fertilizer cost or runoff is their in this system? How much disease?

We need a good thread on lawn care to start....

There is a big movement (over 6 or 7 years) with NOFA for RAW milk! yes raw milk, it seems it is the process of milk mills that create the chance to get sick not the milk itself.
growing up I drank raw milk from 11 to 18 and never had any issues (and always loved the cream on top)

Tim Wilson
12-27-2010, 08:56 PM
There is a big movement (over 6 or 7 years) with NOFA for RAW milk! yes raw milk, it seems it is the process of milk mills that create the chance to get sick not the milk itself.
growing up I drank raw milk from 11 to 18 and never had any issues (and always loved the cream on top)

The day I could not get raw milk, I quit drinking milk, even in my coffee.

treegal1
12-27-2010, 11:50 PM
so its even worse than i had imagined............... i had a feeling.

Bill and Tim, raw milk has been a staple in our house as long as i can think back, some days a gallon per day, healthy cow = good SAFE milk

ICT Bill
12-28-2010, 10:11 PM
although the bill has passed the house and the senate it has not been signed by the President, the word is it will go back the congress for changes before it will be passed

HayBay
12-30-2010, 07:50 PM
Updated info on Raw Milk:

From the FDA website:
http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodSafety/Product-SpecificInformation/MilkSafety/ucm122062.htm

Questions & Answers: Raw Milk
March 1, 2007; Updated March 26, 2010

1.Is it legal to sell raw milk for human consumption?
2.Is it safe to consume raw milk?
3.Have any illnesses or deaths been caused by consuming raw milk products?
4.What are some of the symptoms of illnesses that can be caused by consuming raw milk?
5.How does the pasteurization of raw milk protect consumers?
6.Does pasteurization affect the nutrient content of milk?
7.Does pasteurizing milk alter it in a fashion that can cause allergic reactions?
8.Can drinking pasteurized milk cause lactose intolerance?
9.Does raw milk kill pathogens?
10.Does consuming raw milk cure some illnesses and allergies?
1. Is it legal to sell raw milk for human consumption?

Federal regulation prohibits the introduction into interstate commerce of any unpasteurized milk product in final package form, intended for human consumption (21 CFR 1240.61). In promulgating this regulation in 1987, FDA made a number of findings relative to raw milk, including that "raw milk, no matter how carefully produced, may be unsafe." However, some states do permit the intrastate sale of raw milk intended for human consumption.

2. Is it safe to consume raw milk?

No. Raw milk is inherently dangerous and it should not be consumed by anyone at any time for any purpose. Raw milk may contain many pathogens, including but not limited to:

Enterotoxigenic Staphylococcus aureus
Campylobacter jejuni
Salmonella species
E. coli
Listeria monocytogenes
Mycobacterium tuberculosis
Mycobacterium bovis
Brucella species
Coxiella Burnetii
Yersinia enterocolitica
Illnesses caused by these bacteria can be especially problematic for infants, young children, the elderly, and the immunocompromised. One complication that can arise as a result of infection with E. coli O157:H7 is hemolytic uremic syndrome (HUS), which can cause acute renal failure, especially in the very young or the elderly.

3. Have any illnesses or deaths been caused by consuming raw milk products?

From 1998 to 2008, 85 outbreaks of human infections resulting from consumption of raw milk were reported to CDC. These outbreaks included a total of 1,614 reported illnesses, 187 hospitalizations and 2 deaths. Because not all cases of foodborne illness are recognized and reported, the actual number of illnesses associated with raw milk likely is greater.

4. What are some of the symptoms of illnesses that can be caused by consuming raw milk?

Symptoms of illness caused by consuming raw milk include: vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal pain, fever, headache and body ache. Most healthy people will recover from illness caused by harmful bacteria in raw milk - or in foods made with raw milk - within a short period of time, however some individuals can develop symptoms that are chronic, severe, or even life threatening.

If you or someone you know becomes ill after consuming raw milk - or, if you are pregnant and think you could have consumed contaminated raw milk or cheese made from raw milk - see a doctor or healthcare provider immediately.

5. How does the pasteurization of raw milk protect consumers?

Pasteurization is a process that kills harmful bacteria by heating milk to a specific temperature for a set period of time. Pasteurization kills the bacteria responsible for diseases such as listeriosis, salmonellosis, campylobacteriosis, typhoid fever, tuberculosis, diphtheria, and brucellosis, as well as other bacteria. However, pasteurized milk still contains low levels of the type of nonpathogenic bacteria that can cause food to spoil, so it is important to keep pasteurized milk refrigerated.

6. Does pasteurization affect the nutrient content of milk?


Research shows no meaningful difference between the nutrient content of pasteurized and unpasteurized milk.

7. Does pasteurizing milk alter it in a fashion that can cause allergic reactions?

No. The milk proteins which cause allergic reactions in dairy-sensitive people are present in both raw milk and pasteurized milk.

8. Can drinking pasteurized milk cause lactose intolerance?

No. Lactose intolerance is due to an insufficient production in the body of the enzyme needed to break down lactose, beta-galactosidase. Lactose is present in both raw milk and pasteurized milk at the same concentration. Pasteurization does not impact the concentration of lactose.

9. Does raw milk kill pathogens?

No, it does not. In fact, raw milk potentially harbors a wide range of dangerous pathogens that can cause illness.

10. Does consuming raw milk cure some illnesses and allergies?

No, it does not.

Smallaxe
12-30-2010, 08:19 PM
Raw milk is inherently a disease causing food! Really!?!! Throughout human history, people drank raw milk, but it can kill you!
What a joke to talk about pastuerization and omit the whole issue of homogenization, and expect people to take the phony, 'expert', scientific article seriously. Microwaves don't destroy food value either. Wow!!!
Do city people even know what un-homogenized milk is? What is their 'reason' to do so and what many people outside the FDA actually say about it?

Some stupid, lieing, bought-off chumps in DC say it is illegal, therefore it is wise and right. :laugh:

Tim Wilson
12-30-2010, 08:50 PM
You go Smallaxe. Send the community science quotes where they belong.

fl-landscapes
12-30-2010, 08:57 PM
What's the solution? Self regulation by huge corporations?

Many years ago I worked at a small meat packing plant that supplied hamburgers to local restaurants. When I started there it was regulated by the State & we might have seen an inspector once a month. Then the Feds took over and we were inspected every morning. I can tell you there was a huge improvement in food safety then. But, that was a long time ago and we don't want to pay for this quality anymore.

Im not being a jack azz but are you aware of any deaths or lawsuites prior to the feds stepping up the quality control. Ive kinda been under the impression that food companies that kill or make their customers sick dont last very long and self policing is usually the strictist police in this industry. Now a few more rodent hairs or 3 second rules may happen sure.

HayBay
12-30-2010, 10:32 PM
The whole street here drinks raw milk from their own cows.


They drink their own milk.

Selling the milk to others is different. Who is liable.
There has been many recorded deaths relating to Raw Milk.
That is more than likely the reason the FDA took this position.

It does say that some states allow raw milk interstate usage


Are you saying that Homogenized milk is safer/not safer than raw milk.

Or are you looking at it from a nutrient standpoint?

Do you think the Enviros use the 'precautionary principle' when vulnerable persons, pregnant women or young children are drinking Raw milk?

Or is that thrown out the door because its ORGANIC.

Why do you discredit the government?

NattyLawn
12-31-2010, 09:36 AM
Im not being a jack azz but are you aware of any deaths or lawsuites prior to the feds stepping up the quality control. Ive kinda been under the impression that food companies that kill or make their customers sick dont last very long and self policing is usually the strictist police in this industry. Now a few more rodent hairs or 3 second rules may happen sure.

Look at the regulations in place and all the recalls on beef, milk and other products that are already out there. Not to mention the sicknesses and deaths.

The reason people are mad over here is the regulation of the small organic farmer, or just small farmers in general. The ag lobby's in this country are huge, and those are the ones that need more regulation, not the small farmer. I trust the farm where I get my meat. Why? Because I've been there and see the conditions the animals are raised. Pastured and seems like healthy happy cows. I've never been to a feedlot in Kansas and seen the filth the animals live in, the feed that they're fed (and can't digest), the antibiotics they're given, or the lack of space they're given to move. I won't go into the chickens or pigs on factory farms.

Honestly, I don't feel like the raw milk needs to be pasteurized because the overall conditions of the farm and animals is good. Is anything 100% safe? Just like in lawn care, no. There's a reason milk needs to be pasteurized, and that goes into the condition of the farm and the animal.

Smallaxe
12-31-2010, 09:47 AM
The whole street here drinks raw milk from their own cows.


They drink their own milk.

Selling the milk to others is different. Who is liable.
There has been many recorded deaths relating to Raw Milk.
That is more than likely the reason the FDA took this position.

It does say that some states allow raw milk interstate usage


Are you saying that Homogenized milk is safer/not safer than raw milk.

Or are you looking at it from a nutrient standpoint?

Do you think the Enviros use the 'precautionary principle' when vulnerable persons, pregnant women or young children are drinking Raw milk?

Or is that thrown out the door because its ORGANIC.

Why do you discredit the government?

Homogenization never was a safety issue as far as I know. All they do is bust up the butterfat into globules that stay in solution. They say that your body doesn't properly digest the modified globules. And our gov't won't verify...
Discredit the gov't?

Milk is pretty simple to discern when its gone bad. How did these deaths occur? If farmers sell mastitis milk, shut them down and put them in jail. Otherwise, all of your problems will be in packaging and shipping. Does the gov't ever address the real issue?

Just like the ecoli going 'systemic' and it can't be 'washed' off the lettuce. That occured during shipping when the lettuce spent 3 days going to Indiana, b4 washing off the deer manure. It got inside the lettuce's system by a break in the leaf, that was in contact with deer manure long enough, for the ecoli to be growing into the open veins of the lettuce.

From that 'problem' the gov't advice is to, don't use animal manure on your vegetable garden.

Real people use the advice:
don't put poop on your vegetables. Put in on the soil.
check your milk b4 you drink it.
learn about the diabetes epidemic b4 consuming any hydrogenated oils.

We really think we can protect stupid people from themselves by making us all pay for stupid people. Well I object... :)

phasthound
12-31-2010, 02:08 PM
Ive kinda been under the impression that food companies that kill or make their customers sick dont last very long and self policing is usually the strictist police in this industry.

Sorry, but I have a hard time swallowing that one.

Recall expands to more than half a billion eggs
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38741401/ns/health-food_safety/
Owner is "habitual violator"
http://iowaindependent.com/42241/more-decoster-history-comes-to-light-in-wake-of-congressional-request-for-testimony
http://iowaindependent.com/41566/iowa-producer-worked-to-stifle-rules-some-say-could-have-prevented-egg-recall
Business as usual
http://iowaindependent.com/48170/wright-county-egg-given-green-light-to-once-again-begin-shipping-shell-eggs

fl-landscapes
12-31-2010, 02:51 PM
Sorry, but I have a hard time swallowing that one.

Recall expands to more than half a billion eggs
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38741401/ns/health-food_safety/
Owner is "habitual violator"
http://iowaindependent.com/42241/more-decoster-history-comes-to-light-in-wake-of-congressional-request-for-testimony
http://iowaindependent.com/41566/iowa-producer-worked-to-stifle-rules-some-say-could-have-prevented-egg-recall
Business as usual
http://iowaindependent.com/48170/wright-county-egg-given-green-light-to-once-again-begin-shipping-shell-eggs

I didnt read your links but I assume these are recent, so why didnt all the regulations that you mentioned being imposed stop theses incidents? Smoke and mirror inspections by the government are a waste of money in my opinion. We dont agree on this one but I'll put my safety in the hands of a business owner who wants to continue making a living over the government anyday.

fl-landscapes
12-31-2010, 03:01 PM
here is a link from the cdc http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol5no5/mead.htm

76 miillion cases of food born illness a year in the U.S.!!!!

Thats a lot. So we will look at this in different ways I am sure. I say.....what a waste of frikin money all the millions or billions spent on food safety and still have this many people getting sick. Get the useless gov. out of the way because obviously the sytem isnt working. I dont believe the numbers would go higher if they stepped aside, I think its simple, people eat food and will sometimes get sick doing it.

Kiril
12-31-2010, 03:20 PM
I dont believe the numbers would go higher if they stepped aside, I think its simple, people eat food and will sometimes get sick doing it.

IMO, that is a foolish and naive belief, not that I trust the gov't to protect consumers, but I trust corporations even less.

fl-landscapes
12-31-2010, 04:13 PM
IMO, that is a foolish and naive belief, not that I trust the gov't to protect consumers, but I trust corporations even less.

we're not talking about wall st, we are talking about food producers, Not sure why you think I am naive to think people who sell food for a living would think it was in their best interest not to kill or make people (their customers and financial life line) sick? The food war is as successful as the war on drugs........giant waste of money!! But I am just naive, and a fool I guess, regulate away my friend.

Kiril
12-31-2010, 04:26 PM
If you think businesses and corporations have the consumers best interests in mind then I don't know what to say to you. Heck .... witness all the f'd up chemicals people in the lawn care industry use on a regular basis and ask yourself if those companies have their clients interests/health in mind .... or are they just out to generate the biggest profit margin possible ... to hell with the client or the environment we all live in.

You are however free to keep your blinders on if that is what you are comfortable with.

That said .... in light of failed and corrupt gov't "regulation" and the knowledge that companies/corps only interest is in the bottom line, making "self-regulation" largely a joke (except to those people who actually believe it happens on a regular basis) .... what do you propose be done to protect the consumer?

OrganicsMaine
12-31-2010, 05:00 PM
If we all shopped from our local farmers, and not the big corp farmers, I think many good things will come from this. First, the "bad" ones will quickly develop a reputation and not have any work....free market forces at their best. Second, at we would be helping out the local economy. I don't believe that large corps. will self regulate, and I'm not confident that the free market would work quickly enough, so there should be SOME regulation.

Why not make the penalties catastrophic against those corps that skirt the rules and harm people? I mean hit them where it would hurt the most, devalue their stock. Kind of like what the NCAA does to the athletic programs that cheat.

I really don't like the idea of the government telling us how to run our lives. If someone is stupid enough to eat the wrong things, then that is their problem, not mine. Sure I would feel bad for them if something happened, but if they have yet to see all of the information about how bad McD's et al is for them, then that is their problem....period.

fl-landscapes
12-31-2010, 05:06 PM
If you think businesses and corporations have the consumers best interests in mind then I don't know what to say to you. Heck .... witness all the f'd up chemicals people in the lawn care industry use on a regular basis and ask yourself if those companies have their clients interests/health in mind .... or are they just out to generate the biggest profit margin possible ... to hell with the client or the environment we all live in.

You are however free to keep your blinders on if that is what you are comfortable with.

That said .... in light of failed and corrupt gov't "regulation" and the knowledge that companies/corps only interest is in the bottom line, making "self-regulation" largely a joke (except to those people who actually believe it happens on a regular basis) .... what do you propose be done to protect the consumer?

still talking apples to oranges, AGAIN I am talking only about the food industry. Most corporations run on a cost benifit analysis and if law suites from f'ed up people cost less than fixing f'ed up people they f-people up. I dont have blinders on, I just think the gov. is a joke when it comes to regulation and when it comes to FOOD PRODUCERS by and large I think they try their best to keep their product safe....not because they are nice guys but because they wouldnt last long if they killed and got people sick. Ill even go as far as to say I can see both sides of the coin on this and refrain from pretending my view is the correct view and the only view and anyone who disagrees has blinders on, is naive, and foolish.

fl-landscapes
12-31-2010, 05:09 PM
If we all shopped from our local farmers, and not the big corp farmers, I think many good things will come from this. First, the "bad" ones will quickly develop a reputation and not have any work....free market forces at their best. Second, at we would be helping out the local economy. I don't believe that large corps. will self regulate, and I'm not confident that the free market would work quickly enough, so there should be SOME regulation.

Why not make the penalties catastrophic against those corps that skirt the rules and harm people? I mean hit them where it would hurt the most, devalue their stock. Kind of like what the NCAA does to the athletic programs that cheat.

I really don't like the idea of the government telling us how to run our lives. If someone is stupid enough to eat the wrong things, then that is their problem, not mine. Sure I would feel bad for them if something happened, but if they have yet to see all of the information about how bad McD's et al is for them, then that is their problem....period.

thats the key, make the cost benefit analysis equation always come out in the end to equal more pain if someone is injured due to negligence, unfortunately too many lobyists will never allow it.

fl-landscapes
12-31-2010, 05:12 PM
If you think businesses and corporations have the consumers best interests in mind then I don't know what to say to you. Heck .... witness all the f'd up chemicals people in the lawn care industry use on a regular basis and ask yourself if those companies have their clients interests/health in mind .... or are they just out to generate the biggest profit margin possible ... to hell with the client or the environment we all live in.

You are however free to keep your blinders on if that is what you are comfortable with.
That said .... in light of failed and corrupt gov't "regulation" and the knowledge that companies/corps only interest is in the bottom line, making "self-regulation" largely a joke (except to those people who actually believe it happens on a regular basis) .... what do you propose be done to protect the consumer?

no other member on this site has blinders on as frequently as you, fact.

starry night
12-31-2010, 05:18 PM
Caveat emptor.

fl-landscapes
12-31-2010, 05:20 PM
they dont all suck

http://www.mallenbaker.net/csr/crisis02.html

Kiril
01-01-2011, 09:38 AM
still talking apples to oranges, AGAIN I am talking only about the food industry. Most corporations run on a cost benifit analysis and if law suites from f'ed up people cost less than fixing f'ed up people they f-people up.

I see ..... so the businesses/corps in the food industry operate differently than all non-food industry businesses? :rolleyes:

I dont have blinders on, I just think the gov. is a joke when it comes to regulation and when it comes to FOOD PRODUCERS by and large I think they try their best to keep their product safe....not because they are nice guys but because they wouldnt last long if they killed and got people sick. Ill even go as far as to say I can see both sides of the coin on this and refrain from pretending my view is the correct view and the only view and anyone who disagrees has blinders on, is naive, and foolish.

I don't see two sides of any coin in your argument here. You have stated gov't regulation is a worthless, ineffective, and a massive waste of money.
here is a link from the cdc http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol5no5/mead.htm

76 miillion cases of food born illness a year in the U.S.!!!!

Thats a lot. So we will look at this in different ways I am sure. I say.....what a waste of frikin money all the millions or billions spent on food safety and still have this many people getting sick. Get the useless gov. out of the way because obviously the sytem isnt working. I dont believe the numbers would go higher if they stepped aside, I think its simple, people eat food and will sometimes get sick doing it.

Your position here is clearly on a single side of the coin.

Hell, even with the government "regulation", the food industry still can't self regulate, and yet for some reason you think by removing gov't "regulation" it won't get worse? You do see how illogical your premise is here .... don't you?

In fact, the link you posted above is sufficient to show the food industry cannot self-regulate. I see now the blinders comment was inappropriate ... perhaps blindfold would have been a more appropriate term.

OrganicsMaine
01-01-2011, 09:55 AM
People also need to start taking responsibility for themselves as opposed to waiting for other people to take care of them. Yeah, companies will sometimes do bad things, but that is when the regulations should come down extremely hard on them and possibly take a little of the corporate veil away and allow people who operated negligently to be financially responsible as well as criminally. Now if the market tanks and the company goes belly up, then that is one thing, but if they did things illegally, then drop that hammer hard and make it so that the risk is much greater than the reward. None of this pansy slap on the wrist crap.

Now just to clarify, I don't feel that the CEO should always be on the hook if a subordinate did something that he/she had no knowledge of, but if they sent the directive, then absolutely.

It all comes down to smaller being better. Mom and Pop down the street will absolutely care more about your business than does Wal Mart. So will farmer Joe vs. the Cargills of the world. So we have the choice of where to get our food, goods, and services. I cherish that right to make the choice, so for me, less gov't.

Kiril
01-01-2011, 10:10 AM
It all comes down to smaller being better. Mom and Pop down the street will absolutely care more about your business than does Wal Mart. So will farmer Joe vs. the Cargills of the world. So we have the choice of where to get our food, goods, and services. I cherish that right to make the choice, so for me, less gov't.

While I absolutely agree with this, the sad fact of the matter is it won't happen. As you have already pointed out, in an ideal world all the food people consume would be produced at the community level, and the consumers would personally know the providers. In this type of scenario I can see the food industry being self-regulated to some extent, but certainly not entirely. Just because you don't get food poisoning doesn't necessarily mean the food is safe to consume.

OrganicsMaine
01-01-2011, 10:47 AM
If it is left up to government to make the changes, they won't happen. However, if enough people decided to shop locally then it would happen. Market forces would take effect and the change would happen.

Now that said, I'm not very confident that it will happen because too many people are stuck and have no idea that there is another way.

Case in point, my mother-in-law, who lives in NJ, came to visit one time and we had simple brown eggs. When seeing them she said "those eggs are from chickens, you might get sick". Now, I hope that she knows all eggs are from chickens, but that is the general ignorant mindset that is out there. It would take a herculean effort to overcome all of this, and I don't know that people have the stomach to take that on at this point.

Maybe when other issues are a little more secure.

Kiril
01-01-2011, 11:27 AM
If it is left up to government to make the changes, they won't happen. However, if enough people decided to shop locally then it would happen. Market forces would take effect and the change would happen.

The problem with this is location. Not every location can provide the food people want. For example, where do you get your produce from when the climate and/or land is not conducive to growing produce? While I believe it is more healthy to eat food that is "grown" locally, doing so would be a major step back in most peoples minds .... including mine.

phasthound
01-01-2011, 05:12 PM
Case in point, my mother-in-law, who lives in NJ, came to visit one time and we had simple brown eggs. When seeing them she said "those eggs are from chickens".

That's because we Jersey folks are smart enough to know the answer to that age old question, the chicken came first!

Sorry, I couldn't help myself. :)

OrganicsMaine
01-01-2011, 05:33 PM
That's because we Jersey folks are smart enough to know the answer to that age old question, the chicken came first!

Sorry, I couldn't help myself. :)

LOL, oh Barry, that was a bit painful!

Tim Wilson
01-01-2011, 06:56 PM
Case in point, my mother-in-law, who lives in NJ, came to visit one time and we had simple brown eggs. When seeing them she said "those eggs are from chickens, you might get sick".

Is she a tea bagger?

Smallaxe
01-02-2011, 09:55 AM
...It all comes down to smaller being better. Mom and Pop down the street will absolutely care more about your business than does Wal Mart. So will farmer Joe vs. the Cargills of the world. So we have the choice of where to get our food, goods, and services. I cherish that right to make the choice, so for me, less gov't.

That choice is exactly the 'choice' that SB510 has eliminated. The idea of punishing the reckless handling of food is no part of the equation. Shutting down competition at will, is the ONLY consequence of the 'Bill'. I does nothing for food safety, that proper enforcement of what is already in place, would do. Even 'organic farmers' are now at risk...

OrganicsMaine
01-02-2011, 08:05 PM
Is she a tea bagger?

Actually Tim, no, she leans left, feels that the company her husband worked for "owed" him something more than a paycheck, you know all of that kind of "entitlement" type of stuff.

My point is that there are is a large number of people out there that don't know their heads from a hole in the ground and are already stuck in "the system".