PDA

View Full Version : Dilemma - Switching to LED


JimLewis
01-11-2011, 06:32 PM
I'm pretty much planning to shift my emphasis toward Kichler LED lighting starting this year. In the past, I would mostly steer my customer toward Unique Lighting or sometimes FX Luminaire. But I'm kind of a big believer in the Kichler LED concept now. So I'm probably going to be selling or pushing that product.

The dilemma is I just invested quite a bit of money in a Unique Lighting demo kit near the end of last summer. I have quite a variety of fixtures and a large number of them too. And at this point I can't really spend a few thousand more on a whole new demo set up for Kichler. Not that I can't. Just that it's almost impossible for me to spend that much money again in light of the fact that I just dropped so much last year. And that's money that is needed elsewhere in our company.

But can you really do demos with one kind / brand of lighting but then tell the customer, "Well, we really don't use this brand anymore. This is just for demo purposes only. What you would be buying is this product, but it would look similar....." ????

Anyone else out there have this problem? Did you totally re-invest in an LED demo. kit?

bcg
01-11-2011, 09:05 PM
I tell customers that for the most part, the fixture is irrelevant, the effect is what we're selling. Done correctly, 90% or more of the fixtures aren't going to be seen anyway, so as long as you're giving them a product of equal or better quality, it shouldn't matter.

The way you can spin it is to say that we invested in this demo kit before LED technology had matured but now that it is, we use only LED products because ... and this kit is just to show you the effects we'll be creating, not the tools we're going to use to create them.

RLI Electric
01-11-2011, 10:24 PM
I have to agree. If you are selling "fixtures" then it is just a commodity and anyone can do it. If you are selling a "painting" be it art or a painted family room, does the homeowner really care about if your brush is horsehair or nylon? As long as it puts paint on the wall or canvas and the paint stays there, they probably don't care. Just my opinion though. Hey, use the existing kit and then upsell to the LED. Sir/Maam, how bout we do the same composition with a fraction of the power? If you are an innovator, I have just the thing for you.

JimLewis
01-11-2011, 10:37 PM
Normally I'd agree. Just switching brands is no big deal, really. They should produce about the same effect. I think most people would expect them to. But the problem I see is that a lot of consumers don't have a lot of faith in LED lighting yet. I don't know if you guys are noticing that or if it's just me. But for the times that I have discussed LED lights as an option, I've gotten some pretty good blowback from customers when I suggested it. A lot of them don't believe the color is going to be similar. They've seen or heard of the little blue-ish white LEDs and have the impression that they won't be impressive....won't illuminate well enough.....won't have the right color. Am I the only person getting this kind of skepticism from my clients???

So the real proof is when you do a demo. in all LED and SHOW them that the LED lights really do perform just as well as standard incandescent or halogen.

I feel like if I do a demo. using standard lighting that once I get to the install people are going to be really skeptical. Like I did a bait and switch on them.

extlights
01-12-2011, 01:33 AM
It's pretty simple actually. Order 1 or 2 of the LED's and add them to your demo kit. On a demo you can then show the customer the LED compared to the halogen. Tell the customer that you are now switching to LED and that the majority of your demo fixtures are for just that....a demo. It's used as a design tool to help the customer with the process so you can showcase your talents as a designer. Afterall seeing is believing right? Since you will have a couple of the Kichler fixtures with you, the potential customer will be able to actually see the fixture so they know exactly what they'll be getting.

While I agree that you're selling the "effect" the fixture is important to many people. I have gotten many many jobs based on the fixtures along with the design. People are more savy these days with the economy and they like to know exactly what they are getting when spending that much money. (Even the wealthy)

bcg
01-12-2011, 07:18 AM
I'd say mix in a couple of LED fixtures and ask them to tell you which ones they are from the output alone. They won't be able to do it and then you will have overcome that buying obection.

RLI Electric
01-12-2011, 07:55 AM
I do that with the LED's. I will mix in some with the halogens. I have to admit though, I think I only did one demo this past year. Granted I am not doing as many installs as the majority of you guys but I am also finding that I am having a better time "describing" what I am going to do. I have fixtures on my truck so I let them hold a big box brand and then hold a solid copper or bronze fixture and their tactile needs are fulfilled. I am no longer giving them too much of the technicalities of lamps, beam spreads, voltage drop or any of that. This will lead to paralysis of analysis a lot of the time. If they ask you technical questions, then answer them. They then have the proof you know your stuff. It has been said before and here it is again, LED's are not going away. There is not a solar option at this time.There will not be a CFL version of what we do. (That is a whole other subject and the bane of my lighting world:)) The other reality is, if you don't believe the LED has arrived, that is cool. If you don't believe in them, neither will they. Yet.

JimLewis
01-12-2011, 10:33 AM
RLI,

Yah, I am a lot like what you just described. We haven't done a lot of demo's in the past. We've done a dozen or so over the years. And we got jobs most every time we did them. But most of the lighting I've done came from me just giving a description of what I was going to do, like you said. And like you said, I don't get too much into the details unless someone asks. Where I live in Beaverton, OR we do have a fair amount of engineers (Intel, Techtronics, Solar World, Nike Headquarters, In Focus, etc. Lot of big tech. companies here) and analytical types. So when I get one of those guys, I'll go into more detail. Half the time they're just testing you to see if you know more than they do. They throw out some comment that they think you'll be surprised that they would know that and I'll say, "Yes. That's true. Very important. And we account for that. But what's even more important is...." And then I go into a little more detail that I'm sure they probably didn't know and that usually stops the questions. I think a lot of time those guys are just trying to figure out if they know more about it then you do. Once they figure out that I actually know this stuff pretty well, the questions start to dwindle down.

Otherwise, I don't get into all those unnecessary details unless asked.

The reason we got the demo. kit was an attempt to INCREASE the amount of lighting we do. I love doing lighting. But it's still something that takes a back seat to stuff like paver patios, walls, new landscapes. It's still a small % of our overall business. And I'd like to make it a bigger %. It's very profitable and fairly unique too. In our area, not a lot of homes have really nice landscape or outdoor lighting. So when you do a good job, it really makes the house and landscape stand out. So it's very rewarding too. So the goal was that every time we install a new landscape - if lighting wasn't part of the job - that we would go and put the demo. kit out on the new landscape once we're done with the big landscape job. Then leave it there a few days to let them enjoy it. Then once they've seen how awesome it looks, leave them a bid. I think we'd sell a lot more lighting this way.

It's also nice for people who are interested in lighting but looking at a few other contractors. It's a way to separate us from them. Most of my competitors who do lighting don't have demo. kits. So if I get the feeling that I need to do a demo. to help us land a big job, I'll bring it out for that as well.

ExLights and BCG,

thanks. I think that's what I'll do. I'll just buy a few LED fixtures and mix them in. I was afraid that you'd notice the difference. But for now I will trust BCG that I won't. I saw those photos you showed me in AZ where you had mixed them and I couldn't tell. The job looked great. So I'll trust that this will work. I guess maybe I'll try to build up more LED fixtures into my demo kit over the years as we do more.

sprinkler guy
01-12-2011, 11:26 AM
Jim,

I find that when I mix LED and Halogen, customers are able to spot the LED if I tell them there is a mixture. They look for it when they know it's there. If I don't say anything, they usually don't. IMO, because the LED is a cleaner and more evenly distributed spread of light, it can look different. The naysayers of LED are usually the customers that have seen the really bad blue-gray LEDs of yesterday. Show them the good stuff, even just a fixture or two, and they are usually sold.

RLI Electric
01-12-2011, 11:45 AM
I think Jan Moyers website has a picture called Apples to Apples. It is from the LLI class of 2009. See if you can spot the all LED tree in that picture.

bcg
01-12-2011, 11:52 AM
It depends a lot on the LED you're using. With the Ushio retrofit lamps, there is a subtle difference, their beam spread is just off in a way I can't describe. With the Kichler LED's, the only difference you're goinng to be able to see on the same area is that the Kichler is slightly brighter than its halogen equivalent (ie, the 4W LED is a little brighter than the 20W halogen it's supposed to be equal to). There will be color differences on different materials, for example light shining up a concrete wall will look cooler than light shining up green planting material, but that's a result of the way the surface reflects the light, not the light itself, ad will be there with halogen or LED.

Like I said, I'd just mix them in and then if they object to LED, point out that there are a couple (few) LED fixtures in the demo kit and that they didn't stand out so color and intensity aren't an issue anymore.

jmiller@kichler.com
01-12-2011, 04:48 PM
Jim

I don't know which Kichler distributor you are near, but why don't you contact them and have them talk to our rep or regional manager to see in what way we may be able to help you out with a demo bag. Our demo bags are typically not a lot of fixtures since we suggest contractors simply show a home owner affects they can acheive. For example, if you had a Kichler LED accent light, deck light, path light, you could show many, many affects to a home owner that you could achieve. When you shine our LED accent light up a tree or up the front of their house and they see the white light and how much light an 8.5 watt fixture can put out, how much energy it saves, how it grazes the tree trunk or surface of their home, tell them about the 15 year warranty, state of the art, green, no replacement light bulbs, I think you'll have yourself a sale.
And remember you can do this all with a small battery pack we have as well. It can run down to 9 volts and will still light up. Then you simply recharge it when you get home.

Pro-Scapes
01-14-2011, 05:24 PM
You can read both Mike and my own opinion on it here

http://www.turf-digital.com/Jan2011/South#&pageSet=30&page=0

Our latest article is now out in digital. We see things a bit differently. Make sure you read the line where it says It may seem we are against LED but nothing is further from the truth. I have showed LED vs halogen side by side to my past 6 clients. Every one of them picked the beefy brass fixtures with halogen lamps except for a colored lamp in a small fountain and using LED lamps in the MR16 based pathlights.

steveparrott
01-14-2011, 05:34 PM
Billy, nice article from you and Mike, a very fair and informed appraisal.

Alan B
01-14-2011, 05:47 PM
You can read both Mike and my own opinion on it here

http://www.turf-digital.com/Jan2011/South#&pageSet=30&page=0

Our latest article is now out in digital. We see things a bit differently. Make sure you read the line where it says It may seem we are against LED but nothing is further from the truth. I have showed LED vs halogen side by side to my past 6 clients. Every one of them picked the beefy brass fixtures with halogen lamps except for a colored lamp in a small fountain and using LED lamps in the MR16 based pathlights.
Billy,

Excellent article and I agree with much of what you write. It's refreshing to read what I feel is a more balanced view point on the subject over those marketing their products. I say this on the eve of Volt releasing our own retrofit LED solutions (so maybe I am not being a commercial marketer by largely agreeing with you) but like a lot of things in life I do not see the need for extremes or black and white. There are pros and cons and applications and needs for both LED and halogen. It will transfer over to mainly LED, but I believe in due time and after proper development, innovation and continual micro improvements by everyone along the manu process.

In addition the article was well written. Congrats.

Sincerely,

Alan

Pro-Scapes
01-14-2011, 09:46 PM
Thanks for the compliments. We only tried to share our experiences and opinions. Everytime I have offered an LED installation it has been declined for halogens with the ability to retrofit late. LED's in limited applications such as the one Tim Ryan shows in the article photo credited to him is quite striking. The photo from Tim is a Halco par36 LED if I am not mistaken. They cut the captions back quite a bit from where we had them but it is CLEAR the difference in what claims to be an 20w equivelent to a 20 w halogen in the side by side of the Gambino path light.

In the LED photo you can see a noticably diminshed output while the halogen is much more robust. That is not to say the LED does not still look pleasing but there is a time and a place for them. These photos were taken on identical settings just moments apart without moving the camera.

I do agree, we will be seeing LED's become more and more mainstream and I do think even in large scale applications. I do know of a few firms doing some large 120v LED arrays in commercial applications and it seems to work fairly well however the focus of our article was of course lights within the landscape.

Illumicare
01-15-2011, 11:53 AM
Just a reminder to not paint all LED lamps (or fixtures for that matter) with the same brush! There are LED products on the market that have been specifically designed, engineered and developed for the outdoor lighting industry. Just because there is a bunch of mediocre product on the market does not mean that it is all bad.

Illumicare's LED products have all been designed by "a lighting guy" with years of experience in outdoor lighting. No corners have been cut, no development expenses spared. We are not simply re-branding and re-selling generic, open sourced lamps here. Our current lineup of LED lamps manage thermal output (heat) better than any other LED lamps on the market, and are built to be installed in enclosed fixtures (not so with almost any other LED lamp you will find - read the fine print!) Full IC drivers, stepped drivers, fully epoxy potted drivers, sealed chip boards, thermal bonding between chip & board and between board & heat sink, and the best quality, most efficient optics (collimators) on the market make our products truly unique. Not to mention we have the most complete line of high output, omni-directional miniature LED lamps in the world. All designed specifically and primarily for low voltage outdoor lighting systems.

Our new 35W equivalent LED MR16 is coming along well and we expect to be the first to market with a viable solution. We are also working on a new PAR36 LED lamp that will have all of the features that our current line of lamps offer. A new line of smaller diameter miniature LED lamps is in production too.

Highly efficient, highly effective, field tested and proven and completely different from all the rest. Still not sure? Just take a look at our full specifications, photometrics and spectra-analysis reports and compare them to the 'competition'.... oh wait... the competion doesn't publish all of that data. I wonder why?

bcg
01-15-2011, 12:13 PM
Are you guys goinng to have product for sale at the AOLP show? I'd like to try some of the lamps but I've got to be honest, I'm too lazy to take the time to order them for testing use only. If I could get a couple or a few at the show, I'd probably do so.

Illumicare
01-15-2011, 12:28 PM
Are you guys goinng to have product for sale at the AOLP show? I'd like to try some of the lamps but I've got to be honest, I'm too lazy to take the time to order them for testing use only. If I could get a couple or a few at the show, I'd probably do so.

I will have to look into that and get back to you with a firm answer. I would suspect, that like most trade shows, we will not be allowed to sell product at the venue. Nor are we set up to bring inventory and payment processing systems with us.

Ordering from Illumicare is pretty easy. You go to our online store at: http://store.illumicaregroup.com/

Once you have opened an account with us, you will be contacted by client care to establish your contractor/trade status which allows you to view your NET prices live on-line. Place your order, pick your shipping, put it on your Visa and that is it.

We are also working at developing distributors throughout the USA. If you have a favourite distributor please send us their information so that we can contact them, making the process even more convenient for you.

Regards

Pro-Scapes
01-15-2011, 05:24 PM
Just a reminder to not paint all LED lamps (or fixtures for that matter) with the same brush! There are LED products on the market that have been specifically designed, engineered and developed for the outdoor lighting industry. Just because there is a bunch of mediocre product on the market does not mean that it is all bad.

Illumicare's LED products have all been designed by "a lighting guy" with years of experience in outdoor lighting. No corners have been cut, no development expenses spared. We are not simply re-branding and re-selling generic, open sourced lamps here. Our current lineup of LED lamps manage thermal output (heat) better than any other LED lamps on the market, and are built to be installed in enclosed fixtures (not so with almost any other LED lamp you will find - read the fine print!) Full IC drivers, stepped drivers, fully epoxy potted drivers, sealed chip boards, thermal bonding between chip & board and between board & heat sink, and the best quality, most efficient optics (collimators) on the market make our products truly unique. Not to mention we have the most complete line of high output, omni-directional miniature LED lamps in the world. All designed specifically and primarily for low voltage outdoor lighting systems.

Our new 35W equivalent LED MR16 is coming along well and we expect to be the first to market with a viable solution. We are also working on a new PAR36 LED lamp that will have all of the features that our current line of lamps offer. A new line of smaller diameter miniature LED lamps is in production too.

Highly efficient, highly effective, field tested and proven and completely different from all the rest. Still not sure? Just take a look at our full specifications, photometrics and spectra-analysis reports and compare them to the 'competition'.... oh wait... the competion doesn't publish all of that data. I wonder why?

I stand by our article. Since you only have at this time a 20w equivelent (aprox) and there is no 35w equiv on the market it proves our point that retrofit LED is suitable for low level applications AT THIS TIME. I have tested several LEDs and some that claim to be the best on the market and tested them and found them to be very similar to open source ones from over seas suppliers. Mike has had the same results I have. The year you have had this line up of LED out is hardley something I would consider field tested. Anyone recall the Kumho failure ?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-15-2011, 08:43 PM
I stand by our article. Since you only have at this time a 20w equivelent (aprox) and there is no 35w equiv on the market it proves our point that retrofit LED is suitable for low level applications AT THIS TIME. I have tested several LEDs and some that claim to be the best on the market and tested them and found them to be very similar to open source ones from over seas suppliers. Mike has had the same results I have. The year you have had this line up of LED out is hardley something I would consider field tested. Anyone recall the Kumho failure ?

Clearly your 'testing' and opinions are subjective and not comprehensive nor technical in nature, and as such they remain only your opinion.

The Illumicare line of LED MR16 lamps are equivalent to top quality halogen MR16 lamps which can be proven with both metrics and real world comparisons. Just ask those who continue to purchase the products for their experiences.

The differences between Illumicare LED lamps, developed and built specifically for use in outdoor lighting systems, and the competition (be they generic or name brand) are deliberate and obvious. You only have to compare construction techniques, component quality and performance. Specification sheets are a good place to start.

The current line of Illumicare LED MR16 lamps have been in production for almost 2 years now with multiple thousands of units sold and installed successfully.

The Kumho LED lamps were not a failure at all. They continue to be made and sold under another brand that entered into a private label supply agreement with the manufacturer. It should be noted that they were not designed for use in humid or moist environments. That being said, I personally have about 1000 of them installed and working just fine, most well into their 3rd year of operation and some into year 4. This is fact, not conjecture.

Pro-Scapes
01-16-2011, 11:33 AM
James,

Just a few random thoughts here. I applaud your efforts in working with LED's and the time and finances you have invested in them.

Few quick thoughts here. What are the listings on your LED lamps? UL ? cUL...ETL ? This info isnt on your website and I know it is super important to have these listings up there in Canada on every single piece.

I also appreciate your sponsorship of lawnsite however must just about every thread turn into an Illumacare thread stating the same info over and over again ? (just fyi I am not the only one who has noticed this).

As far as our tests being comprehensive, our tests are based on what counts. Real world experience. Of course the article was our opinions and based on our experiences! Of course I am not going to write an article based on what some sales rep has to say or some "manufactures claim"

I think what you are missing is the core of our article. We are BOTH using LED's in limited applications. LED's are in fact making great strides and we are ALL anxious to see what unfolds in the future.

I do recall some place a conversation with Joey DiGiovanni where you specifically admitted to a problem with the Kumho LED stuff. Lets not dig that up tho.

One more thing. All this posting under multiple names gets confusing :dizzy:

indylights
01-16-2011, 12:44 PM
Just a few more random thoughts. Aren't sponsors allowed to promote their products on here? And before you say "but he hi-jacks every thread", what do you think Joey D did when he was still posting on here? It was unbearable and really turned me off of Unique. Let James run that risk if he wants to. There are several manufacturers who are not sponsors of this board but continually promote their product under the muse of "responding to a question". You promote the Gambino line every chance you can on here, and we all know you profit from that, and no one complains. As for the article itself, I found it just to be two guys opinions, which is fine. Other than that, I didn't take a whole lot out of it.

Scott Maloney
Sunflower Landscapes

steveparrott
01-16-2011, 02:15 PM
Of course, sponsors have the right to promote their products here, but my preference is to keep such comments as brief and to-the-point as possible. I also like to see claims backed up by facts such as specs and test results.

Pro-Scapes
01-16-2011, 03:09 PM
Of course, sponsors have the right to promote their products here, but my preference is to keep such comments as brief and to-the-point as possible. I also like to see claims backed up by facts such as specs and test results.

Level headed as usual Steve. I find your contributions here to be remarkable, informative and well educated. Specs and test results only go so far. Real world applications rule.

Scott,

Get from the article what you will. You are correct Joey did hijack almost every thread and alot of us gave him crap for it. You are wrong on another point. I do not directly benefit from my comments on the Gambino line in the way that you are putting it. Mike does not compensate me for my endorsements however I do benefit greatly from the value it adds to my business being able to provide my clients with the very best that I can.

Alan B
01-16-2011, 04:24 PM
Of course, sponsors have the right to promote their products here, but my preference is to keep such comments as brief and to-the-point as possible. .
X2
I would like to ad that I believe and think of this as the contractors forum first (and sponsors are hear to support it, not drive it).

Manus who sponsor get visibility from their banner, private sub-forum should they want to promote specifics about their products, the right to have a voice and promote their company. Hopefully because of the support a sponsor gives the forum, contractors will take a look at their products and give them a fair shake.

There is not a rule and I am not the boss, but as a matter of social graces I just personally think it would get annoying to others if I posted to threads and promoted my company every time the word fixture was mentioned.

In short, sponsors can post and promote, how they do it is their business. Personally I believe it is best for the forum and contractors that it be as Steve mentioned, short and to the point and no need to repeat continually the same items.

Sincerely,

Alan

Pro-Scapes
01-20-2011, 11:32 AM
The differences between Illumicare LED lamps, developed and built specifically for use in outdoor lighting systems, and the competition (be they generic or name brand) are deliberate and obvious. You only have to compare construction techniques, component quality and performance. Specification sheets are a good place to start.

.

Just curious still James. You seemed to have missed my inquiry. What listings are on the Illumicare LED products ? I know these listings are very important.

irrig8r
01-20-2011, 02:08 PM
Interesting observation. I noticed at least one lamp listed product standards of CE and RoHS... I've seen them before, but I don't know what they mean.

I expect that as finicky as James is about the numbers, etc. that they either have been or will be submitted for UL listings... how about it James? Are LED lamps "listable" apart from their being an integral component of a fixture? And Billy, have you seen any others that carry a UL listing?

Illumicare
01-20-2011, 05:55 PM
Here at Illumicare we take appropriate electrical, safety and performance approvals, listings and labels seriously. In our investigations, there is currently no electrical listing requirement for low voltage, "drop in" replacement LED Lamps. We are continually monitoring the situation, and are aware that changes are coming, currently slated for 2012.

As for the CE and RoHS designations:
The CE mark is a mandatory conformance mark on many products placed on the single market in the European Economic Area (EEA). The CE marking certifies that a product has met EU consumer safety, health or environmental requirements. The CE mark is not recognized as an acceptable electrical safety mark here in North America.

The RoHS mark is an acronym for the Restriction of Hazardous Substances Directive and was adopted in February 2003 by the European Union. This directive restricts the use of six hazardous materials in the manufacture of various types of electronic and electrical equipment.

Rotor_Tool
01-28-2011, 04:47 PM
I'm pretty much planning to shift my emphasis toward Kichler LED lighting starting this year. In the past, I would mostly steer my customer toward Unique Lighting or sometimes FX Luminaire. But I'm kind of a big believer in the Kichler LED concept now. So I'm probably going to be selling or pushing that product.

The dilemma is I just invested quite a bit of money in a Unique Lighting demo kit near the end of last summer. I have quite a variety of fixtures and a large number of them too. And at this point I can't really spend a few thousand more on a whole new demo set up for Kichler. Not that I can't. Just that it's almost impossible for me to spend that much money again in light of the fact that I just dropped so much last year. And that's money that is needed elsewhere in our company.

But can you really do demos with one kind / brand of lighting but then tell the customer, "Well, we really don't use this brand anymore. This is just for demo purposes only. What you would be buying is this product, but it would look similar....." ????

Anyone else out there have this problem? Did you totally re-invest in an LED demo. kit?

Jim,

If you are committed to using Kichler, which it kind of sounds like you are, why wouldn't you hit them up for the samples? It seems like a no-brainer for Kichler, give you a few fixures to show to secure your lighting business. I know if I were trying to win your business in an ever-increasing competitive market I would give you whatever you needed for your demo-kit. Just my $.02.

JimLewis
01-29-2011, 02:54 AM
Yah, you'd think that, wouldn't you? But I've never found a lighting manufacturer yet who would just outfit me with a free demo kit. I have used Unique for years and spent tens of thousands of $$ on their fixtures and still had to pay for my demo. kit I have now. I got it at a pretty good discount. But I still paid over $1000 for the kit I have now, which is pretty extensive.

I'm pretty sure Kichler would be the same way. They'd tell me if I wanted to create a demo kit they would set me up with some special one-time pricing that was a little lower than I would normally pay, but that's the best they could do for me.

FX Luminaire pretty much said the same thing to me back when I inquired about a kit from them too. Just seems to be that they don't like to give out free kits for some reason. I wish I could get them to, though. You figure out how to do that and then let me know, will ya?

indylights
01-29-2011, 09:02 AM
Just curious as to how much free product or services you give your customers to entice them to use you instead of someone else? I don't give anything, time or materials, away, and I don't expect my manufacturers to either. I've paid for every sample, whether it be stone, plant, or lighting I have, and don't have a problem with it. Cost of doing business, and this way I don't have to answer to any manufacturer or feel pressure to use their product. Must of us preach to our clients or potential clients that our experience, skills, training and high quality products we use are what create our value, thereby justifying the prices we charge. Once you start giving things away, that entity, whether it be time or material, quickly becomes devalued.

Scott Maloney
Sunflower Landscapes