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dustinhuck08
01-13-2011, 09:25 PM
I have been researching the negatives of chemical applications and have not had much luck finding anything. I have been thinking about entering into the organic fertilizer application business. To actually get customers to understand why organic is better I'm going to need to give possible clients reasoning of why chemicals are bad and why the organics are the best alternative.


Thanks for all the responses ahead of time!

Barefoot James
01-13-2011, 09:34 PM
Well first you should educate yourself about organics - this site is great - all the stuff you need to know is right here - start reading threads on this forum and about a week from now you will be able to ask some more specific questions - this first question is already answered, but it is gonna take you about 100 hours of reading to get your answers in your head to be able to talk to those future clients. It's all right here start reading!
Welcome to the organic side of Lawnsite!

phasthound
01-14-2011, 08:16 AM
I have been researching the negatives of chemical applications and have not had much luck finding anything. I have been thinking about entering into the organic fertilizer application business. To actually get customers to understand why organic is better I'm going to need to give possible clients reasoning of why chemicals are bad and why the organics are the best alternative.


Thanks for all the responses ahead of time!

You'll find a lot of info here http://www.beyondpesticides.org/
I don't agree with everything stated there, but I don't always agree with everything I have stated either. :)

Kiril
01-14-2011, 09:34 AM
Put this list together a while ago. Links may or may not work, if they don' I am sure you can find the new one that does. This is by no means an all inclusive list of available literature.

Impacts on Microbes & Microbial Communities


FERTILIZERS (Organic & Inorganic)

The effects of chronic nitrogen fertilization on alpine tundra soil microbial communities: implications for carbon and nitrogen cycling (http://amo.colorado.edu/n.pdf)

Chronic nitrogen enrichment affects the structure and function of the soil microbial community in temperate hardwood and pine forests (http://www.biology.duke.edu/fungi/mycolab/publications/Frey%20et%20al.%202004.pdf)

Chronic nitrogen additions reduce total soil respiration and microbial respiration in temperate forest
soils at the Harvard Forest (http://www.whrc.org/resources/published_literature/pdf/BowdenetalEcosyst.04.pdf)

Changes in Soil Microbial Biomass and Bacterial Community in a Long-term
Fertilization Experiment During the Growth of Maize (http://www.aensi.org/aeb/2008/1-8.pdf)

Bacterial Community Structure and Diversity in a Century-Old Manure-Treated Agroecosystem (http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/70/10/5868.pdf)

Seasonal changes in soil microbial communities along a fertility gradient of temperate grasslands (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0038-0717(99)00016-4)

Responses of the bacterial and fungal biomass in a grassland soil to multi-year applications of dairy manure slurry and fertilizer (http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=16474557)

Responses of grassland soil nematodes and protozoa to multi-year and single-year applications of dairy manure slurry and fertilizer (http://umanitoba.ca/faculties/afs/soil_science/MSSS/Ecology/Graduate/Forge%20et%20al%202005%20manure%20nema%20proto.pdf)

Soil microbial biomass and selected soil enzyme activities: effect of fertilization and cropping practices (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/9924)

Responses of Active Bacterial and Fungal Communities in Soils under Winter Wheat to Different Fertilizer and Pesticide Regimens (http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/70/5/2692.pdf)

Spatial and seasonal variation of gross nitrogen transformations and microbial biomass in a northeastern US grassland (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/20976)


Abstracts


Soil biological quality of grassland fertilized with adjusted cattle manure slurries in comparison with organic and inorganic fertilizers (http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s00374-009-0370-2)

Fungal biomass in pastures increases with age and reduced N input (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.soilbio.2007.01.013)

Fungal/bacterial ratios in grasslands with contrasting nitrogen management (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.soilbio.2006.01.008)

Soil microbial community responses to dairy manure or ammonium nitrate applications (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0038-0717(01)00004-9)

Chemical and biological indicators of soil quality in organic and conventional farming systems in Central Italy (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.ecolind.2005.08.029)

Application of fresh and composted organic wastes modifies structure, size and activity of soil microbial community under semiarid climate (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.apsoil.2008.05.007)

Structure and function of the soil microbial community in a long-term fertilizer experiment (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0038-0717(02)00297-3)

The role of tree leaf mulch and nitrogen fertilizer on turfgrass soil quality (http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s003740050524)

Long-term effect of mineral fertilizers and amendments on microbial dynamics in an alfisol of Western Himalayas (http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s12088-007-0016-8)

Ground beetle abundance and community composition in conventional and organic tomato systems of California's Central Valley (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0929-1393(98)00138-3)

Organic and synthetic fertility amendments influence soil microbial, physical and chemical properties on organic and conventional farms (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0929-1393(01)00187-1)

Long-term effects of organic and synthetic soil fertility amendments on soil microbial communities and the development of southern blight (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.soilbio.2007.04.001)

Effects of cover crops, compost, and manure amendments on soil microbial community structure in tomato production systems (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.apsoil.2007.08.003)


WATER


Influence of irrigated agriculture on soil microbial diversity (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/21497)

Response of microbial community composition and activity in agricultural and grassland soils after a simulated rainfall (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/6845)

Flooding effects on soil microbial communities (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/31492)

Microbial Communities in High and Low Recharge Environments: Implications for Microbial Transport in the Vadose Zone (http://www.springerlink.com/content/qa7eatvnbhl90b84/fulltext.pdf)


CROP RESIDUES


Redistribution of crop residues during row cultivation creates a biologically enhanced environment for soil microorganisms (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/8051)

Effects of mycorrhizal roots and extraradical hyphae on 15N uptake from vineyard cover crop litter and the soil microbial community (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/6870)


WEEDS


Nitrogen source influences wild mustard growth and competitive effect on sweet corn (http://arsweeds.cropsci.illinois.edu/nisource.pdf)

Nitrogen Fertilizer, Manure, and Compost Effects on Weed Growth
and Competition with Spring Wheat (http://agron.scijournals.org/cgi/reprint/97/6/1612.pdf)


COMPACTION & TEXTURE


Nitrogen mineralization and microbial biomass as affected by soil compaction (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/0038-0717(95)00154-9)

Microbial Responses to Wheel-Traffic in Conventional and No-Tillage Systems (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/15133)

Compaction alters physical but not biological indices of soil health (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/4078)

Active fractions of organic matter in soils with different texture (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/9925)


GENERAL DISTURBANCE


Microbial community responses in forest mineral soil to compaction, organic matter removal, and vegetation control (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/1423)

Soil microbial community composition and land use history in cultivated and grassland ecosystems of coastal California (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/20973)

Carbon and nitrogen conservation in dryland tillage and cropping systems (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/14341)

Soil Scarification and Wildfire Interactions and Effects on Microbial Communities and Carbon (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/10887)


PLANT COMPOSITION


Invasion by an exotic tree alters above and belowground ecosystem components (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/33745)

JDUtah
01-14-2011, 09:11 PM
I wanna i wanna i wanna... but I wont. :)

ok i will...

salts kill microbes.... NOT!

Landscape Poet
01-15-2011, 12:22 AM
Put this list together a while ago. Links may or may not work, if they don' I am sure you can find the new one that does. This is by no means an all inclusive list of available literature.

Impacts on Microbes & Microbial Communities


FERTILIZERS (Organic & Inorganic)

The effects of chronic nitrogen fertilization on alpine tundra soil microbial communities: implications for carbon and nitrogen cycling (http://amo.colorado.edu/n.pdf)

Chronic nitrogen enrichment affects the structure and function of the soil microbial community in temperate hardwood and pine forests (http://www.biology.duke.edu/fungi/mycolab/publications/Frey%20et%20al.%202004.pdf)

Chronic nitrogen additions reduce total soil respiration and microbial respiration in temperate forest
soils at the Harvard Forest (http://www.whrc.org/resources/published_literature/pdf/BowdenetalEcosyst.04.pdf)

Changes in Soil Microbial Biomass and Bacterial Community in a Long-term
Fertilization Experiment During the Growth of Maize (http://www.aensi.org/aeb/2008/1-8.pdf)

Bacterial Community Structure and Diversity in a Century-Old Manure-Treated Agroecosystem (http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/70/10/5868.pdf)

Seasonal changes in soil microbial communities along a fertility gradient of temperate grasslands (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0038-0717(99)00016-4)

Responses of the bacterial and fungal biomass in a grassland soil to multi-year applications of dairy manure slurry and fertilizer (http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=16474557)

Responses of grassland soil nematodes and protozoa to multi-year and single-year applications of dairy manure slurry and fertilizer (http://umanitoba.ca/faculties/afs/soil_science/MSSS/Ecology/Graduate/Forge%20et%20al%202005%20manure%20nema%20proto.pdf)

Soil microbial biomass and selected soil enzyme activities: effect of fertilization and cropping practices (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/9924)

Responses of Active Bacterial and Fungal Communities in Soils under Winter Wheat to Different Fertilizer and Pesticide Regimens (http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/70/5/2692.pdf)

Spatial and seasonal variation of gross nitrogen transformations and microbial biomass in a northeastern US grassland (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/20976)


Abstracts


Soil biological quality of grassland fertilized with adjusted cattle manure slurries in comparison with organic and inorganic fertilizers (http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s00374-009-0370-2)

Fungal biomass in pastures increases with age and reduced N input (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.soilbio.2007.01.013)

Fungal/bacterial ratios in grasslands with contrasting nitrogen management (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.soilbio.2006.01.008)

Soil microbial community responses to dairy manure or ammonium nitrate applications (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0038-0717(01)00004-9)

Chemical and biological indicators of soil quality in organic and conventional farming systems in Central Italy (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.ecolind.2005.08.029)

Application of fresh and composted organic wastes modifies structure, size and activity of soil microbial community under semiarid climate (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.apsoil.2008.05.007)

Structure and function of the soil microbial community in a long-term fertilizer experiment (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0038-0717(02)00297-3)

The role of tree leaf mulch and nitrogen fertilizer on turfgrass soil quality (http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s003740050524)

Long-term effect of mineral fertilizers and amendments on microbial dynamics in an alfisol of Western Himalayas (http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s12088-007-0016-8)

Ground beetle abundance and community composition in conventional and organic tomato systems of California's Central Valley (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0929-1393(98)00138-3)

Organic and synthetic fertility amendments influence soil microbial, physical and chemical properties on organic and conventional farms (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0929-1393(01)00187-1)

Long-term effects of organic and synthetic soil fertility amendments on soil microbial communities and the development of southern blight (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.soilbio.2007.04.001)

Effects of cover crops, compost, and manure amendments on soil microbial community structure in tomato production systems (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.apsoil.2007.08.003)


WATER


Influence of irrigated agriculture on soil microbial diversity (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/21497)

Response of microbial community composition and activity in agricultural and grassland soils after a simulated rainfall (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/6845)

Flooding effects on soil microbial communities (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/31492)

Microbial Communities in High and Low Recharge Environments: Implications for Microbial Transport in the Vadose Zone (http://www.springerlink.com/content/qa7eatvnbhl90b84/fulltext.pdf)


CROP RESIDUES


Redistribution of crop residues during row cultivation creates a biologically enhanced environment for soil microorganisms (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/8051)

Effects of mycorrhizal roots and extraradical hyphae on 15N uptake from vineyard cover crop litter and the soil microbial community (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/6870)


WEEDS


Nitrogen source influences wild mustard growth and competitive effect on sweet corn (http://arsweeds.cropsci.illinois.edu/nisource.pdf)

Nitrogen Fertilizer, Manure, and Compost Effects on Weed Growth
and Competition with Spring Wheat (http://agron.scijournals.org/cgi/reprint/97/6/1612.pdf)


COMPACTION & TEXTURE


Nitrogen mineralization and microbial biomass as affected by soil compaction (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/0038-0717(95)00154-9)

Microbial Responses to Wheel-Traffic in Conventional and No-Tillage Systems (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/15133)

Compaction alters physical but not biological indices of soil health (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/4078)

Active fractions of organic matter in soils with different texture (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/9925)


GENERAL DISTURBANCE


Microbial community responses in forest mineral soil to compaction, organic matter removal, and vegetation control (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/1423)

Soil microbial community composition and land use history in cultivated and grassland ecosystems of coastal California (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/20973)

Carbon and nitrogen conservation in dryland tillage and cropping systems (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/14341)

Soil Scarification and Wildfire Interactions and Effects on Microbial Communities and Carbon (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/10887)


PLANT COMPOSITION


Invasion by an exotic tree alters above and belowground ecosystem components (http://hdl.handle.net/10113/33745)


Kiril is kind of like the librarian around here - read his links and you will learn more than you will spending hours running through other websites.

starry night
01-15-2011, 10:35 AM
I wanna i wanna i wanna... but I wont. :)

ok i will...

salts kill microbes.... NOT!

Hmmmm. That gives me an idea for something to look at under the microscope I got for Christmas. JD are you saying there won't be ANY effect on the microbes?

Kiril
01-15-2011, 11:11 AM
Hmmmm. That gives me an idea for something to look at under the microscope I got for Christmas. JD are you saying there won't be ANY effect on the microbes?

What kind of scope did santa get you?

phasthound
01-15-2011, 11:12 AM
Rather than beat a dead horse, let's take another look at the OP's question.

I interpret his post as asking how to best explain negative effects of chemical lawn care to potential residential clients. The average homeowner would more likely listen to potential health and environmental problems than the effect of salt based fertilizers on soil microbiology.

horttenn
01-15-2011, 11:18 AM
Just got the new issue of total landscape care. The title of the article is Pesticide PR. I think it is funny they are running articles in professional magazines. Here is a link.
http://www.digitalmagazinetechnology.com/a/?KEY=totallandscapecare-11-01january#page=39

phasthound
01-15-2011, 12:06 PM
I think it's important for the public to hear input from both industry and environmental groups. Smart people will realize the truth lays somewhere in the middle and may be motivated to do some research on their own. Open discussions are much more fruitful the typical "us vs. them" arguments.

Smallaxe
01-15-2011, 01:20 PM
I think it's important for the public to hear input from both industry and environmental groups. Smart people will realize the truth lays somewhere in the middle and may be motivated to do some research on their own. Open discussions are much more fruitful the typical "us vs. them" arguments.

Have to agree that this is true. Extremism on either side of the issue, rarely involves the proper understanding of botany. Botany being the development of root, stem and leaf, at the very least... :)

starry night
01-15-2011, 03:28 PM
What kind of scope did santa get you?

A refurbished Bausch & Lomb which is more scope than I would have bought new. Found one deficiency for my purposes. Objectives are 4x, 10x, 40x and 100x. I'm assuming the objectives can be replaced? If so, I will get a 20x to replace the 100. I've looked at my dry compost (slightly moistened) and it was fascinating. Next, I have to take the time to wake up some microbes and watch them working, or at least moving.

phasthound
01-15-2011, 03:43 PM
A refurbished Bausch & Lomb which is more scope than I would have bought new. Found one deficiency for my purposes. Objectives are 4x, 10x, 40x and 100x. I'm assuming the objectives can be replaced? If so, I will get a 20x to replace the 100. I've looked at my dry compost (slightly moistened) and it was fascinating. Next, I have to take the time to wake up some microbes and watch them working, or at least moving.

Ya shoulda got one of Tim's scopes.

JDUtah
01-15-2011, 06:29 PM
Rather than beat a dead horse, let's take another look at the OP's question.

I interpret his post as asking how to best explain negative effects of chemical lawn care to potential residential clients. The average homeowner would more likely listen to potential health and environmental problems than the effect of salt based fertilizers on soil microbiology.

:dancing::clapping::cool2::walking:

JDUtah
01-15-2011, 06:36 PM
Hmmmm. That gives me an idea for something to look at under the microscope I got for Christmas. JD are you saying there won't be ANY effect on the microbes?

Nope, there will probably be change. And which direction of change depends GREATLY on the test you do!

Tim Wilson
01-15-2011, 06:48 PM
I wanna i wanna i wanna... but I wont. :)

ok i will...

salts kill microbes.... NOT!

There are actually microbes which thrive on fertilizer salts, as JD knows.

One negative with using chemical (ionic form) fertilizers is; that if using natural substances like compost or many organic fertilizers the nutrients remain stored (sequestered) until released (mineralized) by soil microorganisms through signals received (carbon exudates) from the roots of plants BUT when ionic form fertilizers are used, these are uptaken immediately by roots, bypassing the microbial mineralization system or unused ionic nutrients can wash away or leach into the water system. The problem with this is that over time the soil microbes responsible for mineralization will die off (use it or lose it) and the obvious fact that chemical nutrient salts can leach into ground water or remain in an altered (harmful) form in the soil for many years (e.g. the muck farms of Florida). Chemical nutrients which end up in bodies of water can cause a profound nutrient and life imbalance, like causing huge algae blooms which result in dominant monocultures of plants and animals which chock diversity and the delicate chain (cycle) of life itself.

JDUtah
01-15-2011, 07:45 PM
Yes, there are many negatives for using synthetics. There are also many negatives for using "organics". There are also negatives for buying things at the grocery store. There are negatives all around us.

One negative I see in the original post is that he wants to break into the market by convincing people that synthetics are bad. This is a negative because he is pitching it to them using a negative. Bahaha. :)

His time would be MUCH better spent by teaching them that organics are GOOD! And also, as a start up market, by simply trying to find the people who already know and want organics. Converting, I mean convincing people of what's wrong in this world is a very HARD and INEFFECTIVE thing to do. Especially while just entering the market.

Again, push the good of organics, not the bad of synthetics. Why? Because it is much more effective and because well.. organics ARE good!

Tim, I have a concern with a point you made. I am not so sure I believe that...... ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh wait. I just re-read it differently. At first I thought you were saying that the organic based ferts sit there, not breaking down if you use synthetic ferts... but now I see you mean that they are allowed to break down over time compared to break down relatively instantly (dissolve). So never mind. :)

starry night
01-15-2011, 08:24 PM
Again, push the good of organics, not the bad of synthetics. Why? Because it is much more effective and because well.. organics ARE good!

Here;here. I agree completely and that's how I market organics........
the best way to grow good grass.

Kiril
01-15-2011, 08:50 PM
Yes, there are many negatives for using synthetics. There are also many negatives for using "organics". There are also negatives for buying things at the grocery store. There are negatives all around us.

Don't forget the negatives to listening to your uniformed crap.

His time would be MUCH better spent by teaching them that organics are GOOD! And also, as a start up market, by simply trying to find the people who already know and want organics. Converting, I mean convincing people of what's wrong in this world is a very HARD and INEFFECTIVE thing to do.

This is true .... look at how many times I have posted that list of studies and you still spout off your nonsense.

JDUtah
01-15-2011, 10:01 PM
Don't forget the negatives to listening to your uniformed crap.



This is true .... look at how many times I have posted that list of studies and you still spout off your nonsense.

Kiril--->> "Lets go back to name calling and criticism class. I'm the teacher after all, so I am always right."

Kiril
01-15-2011, 10:33 PM
What do you expect when you keep posting your nonsense? How about you do some research before you post so you can actually contribute something worthwhile instead of the same old uniformed crap. Wouldn't that be nice for a change? One thing for certain .... there is no shortage of people on this website who like to pretend they are an authority on subjects they have little understanding of.

JDUtah
01-16-2011, 12:51 AM
Kiril, yes or no... do microbes use the same ions that are found in synthetic fertilizers?

Kiril
01-16-2011, 01:22 AM
It is not a yes or no question.

phasthound
01-16-2011, 08:03 AM
So just discuss your answer.

Kiril
01-16-2011, 08:50 AM
So just discuss your answer.

I already have on numerous occasions ..... and I am tired of repeating myself.

JDUtah
01-16-2011, 10:42 AM
Answer my question Kiril. Do soil microbes use the same ions that are found in synthetic fertilizers?

Smallaxe
01-16-2011, 10:42 AM
It is real difficult to convince a HO that synthetics are 'bad', when they have been used to grow outstanding crops and bright green beautiful lawns for just a couple of bucks, for over 70 years. However one thing that really IS 'bad' is using way too much...

I don't believe it is necessary to tell the client that he may have only 86 microbes/unit of soil instead of a 100. Talk about discreditting yourself as a goofball. We had interviewed a number of different 'tree pros', a few years ago, and everyone still mocks the enviro whacko, who was making major issues out of minor details...

If you are building up salt reserves in your lawns, then stop and explain it. If nothing is really happening, then don't pretend that it is... People want an LCO with integrity, not some shuckster with a 'plan for you...'

Only discuss REAL issues that are obviously effecting their lawns and habitats... :)

Kiril
01-16-2011, 11:59 AM
Answer my question Kiril. Do soil microbes use the same ions that are found in synthetic fertilizers?

As already stated, a straw man argument, and I have no interest in playing your childish games. Soil fertility is far more complex than your ignorant yes/no question. If you actually knew what you were talking about you would never use such a lame question/tactic as a means to defend your uninformed position.