PDA

View Full Version : Real World Advantages That A Client Will Buy


Smallaxe
01-17-2011, 09:52 AM
With the high prices of ferts, getting worse every year, we could certainly use a simple, common sense idea of getting more NPK onto the lawns. Even utilizing NPK for efficiently...

What are some practical steps that are easily understood by clients, that maintain beautiful lawns?

starry night
01-17-2011, 03:42 PM
With the high prices of ferts, getting worse every year, we could certainly use a simple, common sense idea of getting more NPK onto the lawns. Even utilizing NPK for efficiently...

What are some practical steps that are easily understood by clients, that maintain beautiful lawns?

Improve the soil.

Smallaxe
01-17-2011, 06:55 PM
Improve the soil.

Thanks for the response...

I could speak for 15 minutes, just giving the client a brief over view... :)

How do we relate the idea of improving the soil, to the fella who thinks of grass as an outdoor carpet?
What is simply understood by the average homeowner?

dKoester
01-17-2011, 07:38 PM
Are you looking for great copy for your marketing material?

starry night
01-17-2011, 08:15 PM
How do we relate the idea of improving the soil, to the fella who thinks of grass as an outdoor carpet?

Somehow have to convince him that the soil underneath is more important than underlayment sheathing.

OrganicsMaine
01-17-2011, 09:44 PM
Are you looking for great copy for your marketing material?

Yeah I am! Lets see what we can come up with here!:clapping:

JDUtah
01-18-2011, 01:23 AM
It's not hard. The hard part is giving them the same quality turf.

But...
Depending on the fert used, they help with carbon sequestering compared to release of carbon.

Also, less use of pesticides which means less risk to health, pets, and family.

And again depending on fert, if it was a waste stream... recycling/sustainable.

Also, depending on fert... does not compete with food sources.

In the spring, depending on how you manage it, they have less surge growth.

Less immediate leach potential means there MAY be less chance of polluting their groundwater. I don't use this one though, as some organic practices can cause more leach potential and more groundwater pollution potential than chemical ferts.

In the end the bottom line is a lawn that MUST look just as good or better than a chemically managed turf, and at a comparable price. The bragging rights that they hired an "organic" company after that is only gravy.

Smallaxe
01-18-2011, 09:09 AM
It's not hard. The hard part is giving them the same quality turf.

But...
Depending on the fert used, they help with carbon sequestering compared to release of carbon.

Also, less use of pesticides which means less risk to health, pets, and family.

And again depending on fert, if it was a waste stream... recycling/sustainable.

Also, depending on fert... does not compete with food sources.

In the spring, depending on how you manage it, they have less surge growth.

Less immediate leach potential means there MAY be less chance of polluting their groundwater. I don't use this one though, as some organic practices can cause more leach potential and more groundwater pollution potential than chemical ferts.

In the end the bottom line is a lawn that MUST look just as good or better than a chemically managed turf, and at a comparable price. The bragging rights that they hired an "organic" company after that is only gravy.

You have just listed all the stuff that people do NOT want to hear about... Most people do not believe that CO2 is killing the planet. What most people see from environmental science, is the DNR... Little or no credibility... therefore they don't believe they are hurting a thing.

Kiril
01-18-2011, 09:14 AM
I don't use this one though, as some organic practices can cause more leach potential and more groundwater pollution potential than chemical ferts.

I'll bite ... which ones specifically?

Smallaxe
01-18-2011, 09:17 AM
Are you looking for great copy for your marketing material?

I would like to be able to market some organic activity, without sounding like an enviro-nut, with lots of do-gooder ideas. High sounding academic words, ideas, and concepts, appears like snake oil.

I am hoping for basic common sense ideas, that would appear to the client as a moment of discovery. For exa: We know that good soil structure, produces healthier turf but how can we sell a job to the client, that makes it happen?

Kiril
01-18-2011, 09:18 AM
I would like to be able to market some organic activity, without sounding like an enviro-nut, with lots of do-gooder ideas. High sounding academic words, ideas, and concepts, appears like snake oil.

I am hoping for basic common sense ideas, that would appear to the client as a moment of discovery. For exa: We know that good soil structure, produces healthier turf but how can we sell a job to the client, that makes it happen?

The same way you sell any job .... by appealing to their pocket book.

Smallaxe
01-18-2011, 09:46 AM
The same way you sell any job .... by appealing to their pocket book.

You get what you pay for... People that I work for would just as soon pay a standard price for standard squirt and fert, than to deal with a 'pie in the sky' option. Though it may be cheaper.

I have made headway with compost applications, but that is not easy to market to new clients. For the very reason you've just stated... :)

Kiril
01-18-2011, 10:32 AM
You get what you pay for... People that I work for would just as soon pay a standard price for standard squirt and fert, than to deal with a 'pie in the sky' option. Though it may be cheaper.

I have made headway with compost applications, but that is not easy to market to new clients. For the very reason you've just stated... :)

You need to successfully explain how proper landscape/soil management will reduce overall maintenance costs in the long term, saving them money. It is a hard sell to anyone when the initial costs are high.

Smallaxe
01-18-2011, 10:40 AM
You need to successfully explain ....

Successfully Explain... You nailed the question exactly... :)

What sort of lingo, will explain simply?... and understandably?... preferably in 2-3 minutes or less?

Kiril
01-18-2011, 10:54 AM
Successfully Explain... You nailed the question exactly... :)

What sort of lingo, will explain simply?... and understandably?... preferably in 2-3 minutes or less?

There is no cue card here Axe. You need to assess the client and temper your presentation to fit.

Barefoot James
01-18-2011, 12:16 PM
I would like to be able to market some organic activity, without sounding like an enviro-nut, with lots of do-gooder ideas. High sounding academic words, ideas, and concepts, appears like snake oil.

I am hoping for basic common sense ideas, that would appear to the client as a moment of discovery. For exa: We know that good soil structure, produces healthier turf but how can we sell a job to the client, that makes it happen?

How about this? Pretty simple and straight forward - no fancy words - just common sense.

1234 Any Street hint use an address of a couple of prime properties in the specific marketing area you have targeted!

Have you seen the above lawns in your neighborhood?
Would you like a yard like theirs?

Fill in blank (name of your company) organic-targeted lawn care programs are like no other – because we have filled in the missing link that ‘other’ programs don’t do in their regular fertilization/weed programs. That missing link is called “SEEDING”. Fescue grass is bunch grass. This means it grows in bunches; it does not spread or fill in bad or bare spots. Thin, bare spots and overall damage in turf caused by poor mowing practices, pets, draught, erosion or pests can only be repaired using expensive sod or affordable seeding. fill in blank is all about seeding and we go the extra mile by top dressing the seed with compost. We have the tools (dump truck and top dresser) to do this at a very affordable price. Seeding and compost top dressing is the core of our company and why our programs work better than others. Fill in blank programs can work with your existing lawn care program, or better yet, you can use the entire fill in blank protocol – including mowing services.

JDUtah
01-18-2011, 12:36 PM
I'll bite ... which ones specifically?

A few. :nono: I don't care to debate with you on this matter also Kiril. So I'm going to leave it at that.

JDUtah
01-18-2011, 12:43 PM
You have just listed all the stuff that people do NOT want to hear about... Most people do not believe that CO2 is killing the planet. What most people see from environmental science, is the DNR... Little or no credibility... therefore they don't believe they are hurting a thing.

I don't know. Most people are interested in less risk to their health and family.

And like I said ta the beginning and ending.. it's about great turf at a competitive rate. Bottom line.

As far as the others points I made. If they do not appeal to the customer than any attempt to "convert" them is misspent energy. It would simply be wise to sell the quality and comparable price.

ecoguy
01-18-2011, 12:51 PM
Hey guys. Happy 2011. Good discussian here Smallaxe. I think people are hesitant to give away their secrets - which is why your not getting the specifiities that your after.

Here's a few things I've found helpful:

- Focusing on the fact that squirt and fert is an outdated, dying technology and method. Organic is the future and the future has arrived.

- Explaining the difference between working with nature and working against nature and why the former works best

- Turn Organic principles into metaphors that fit your client's unique personality/ interests. eg. I have a customer who is a high profile investment broker with over 500 clients. When he began to lose patience with my organics I asked him how he would respond if his own client's said "hey, I invested with you 3 months ago and haven't seen any gains yet.?" Anything of value takes time and we should be skeptical of anything that doesn't.

Kiril
01-18-2011, 02:12 PM
A few. :nono: I don't care to debate with you on this matter also Kiril. So I'm going to leave it at that.

I see. :rolleyes:

OrganicsMaine
01-18-2011, 02:30 PM
Hey guys. Happy 2011. Good discussian here Smallaxe. I think people are hesitant to give away their secrets - which is why your not getting the specifiities that your after.

Here's a few things I've found helpful:

- Focusing on the fact that squirt and fert is an outdated, dying technology and method. Organic is the future and the future has arrived.

- Explaining the difference between working with nature and working against nature and why the former works best

- Turn Organic principles into metaphors that fit your client's unique personality/ interests. eg. I have a customer who is a high profile investment broker with over 500 clients. When he began to lose patience with my organics I asked him how he would respond if his own client's said "hey, I invested with you 3 months ago and haven't seen any gains yet.?" Anything of value takes time and we should be skeptical of anything that doesn't.

Well said!

ICT Bill
01-18-2011, 06:16 PM
Many states are moving to integrated pest management practices or IPM, although the background of these services is completely chemical they are embracing some fundamentals that are key

indentify before you apply anything, which to me means your a pretty smart guy to know all of the bugs and fungi that may be affecting my lawn and landscape

reduced inputs, by building soil organics matter fertility increases and the need for chemical fertilizers and pesticides is reduced, if you do have to pull a chemical trigger it seems to work much better at the lowest rate

not tied to foreign oil, chemical fertilizers ( and I will go a little over board here) are supporting foreign oil, the cost is increasing all of the time, sustainable practices are local and typically something someone else does not want, corn gluten meal for instance is a byproduct of the corn strach industry, it is their waste

although the initial cost may be more, long term cost will be less than chemicals, core aeration, overseeding and top dressing with compost costs a little extra at first but once we get the soil organic matter up to 5% to 7% we only have to do this every 3 or 4 years

weeds grow where grass isn't, we always carry seed and compost and will fill any void in the lawn that we may see, almost eleminating chemical herbicides, if we have to use them we can spot spray saving everybody time and money and not exposing your children and pets a broadcast spray of chemicals

chemical fertilizers melt into the top inch or 2 of the soil, that is where the roots go to get nutrients, if there is any stress like drought or heat the plants have no way to protect themselves from the stress, organic yards can have roots 18 inches long allowing the yard to handle stress easily

It is shown that yards high in organic matter need less water svaing you time and money in the heat of summer

Overseeding is always a good idea every couple of years as new strains come out that have much better color, use less water, and resist common disease better saving time, money and using much fewer chemicals

dKoester
01-18-2011, 06:32 PM
There is no cue card here Axe. You need to assess the client and temper your presentation to fit.

It all comes down to compelling copy. This is what college was all about. I would suggest he take some strong marketing classes if he wants to really captivate his potential buyers.

Barefoot James
01-18-2011, 11:28 PM
Good stuff Bill

dKoster show use your marketing phrases

Smallaxe
01-19-2011, 10:11 AM
Lots of good ideas out there. Of course a lot of it is over the head of the client in most cases, but gradually they can understand if they care to.

I believe the 'instant attention' would be the pocket book. Perhaps selling 'Organic' is not the best idea. To go 'Organic" means it is going to cost more... and take time to regain what they HAVE already.

Selling one idea, that saves the new client money, without diminishing turf color, while at the same time improving the soil.
Eliminating Nitrogen loss through evaporation/leaching as much as possible, may meet that criteria.

Describing the 'idea' to the potential client as the lawn being a sponge that allows N to soak in and stay, for the plants to use, or the soil being like steel wool, that doesn't hold anything for very long.
Then giving it a name like IPM, which deals with pest management of course, but gives the client the idea that, he pays for something ONLY if it is needed.

phasthound
01-19-2011, 10:28 AM
I like to compare IPM with Plant Health Care. IPM is treating mostly with pesticides when a problem arises. PHC is all about improving plant vitality so it can fend off pests with it's immune system. I stress that these plants, turf or ornamental, will also provide a better looking landscape.

I also explain the value and benefits for them in terms of health and safety.
We will not be the low cost provider, we will provide them with more value for the money. If they are not interested in this type of program, I can refer them to someone else.

Smallaxe
01-19-2011, 11:35 AM
I like to compare IPM with Plant Health Care. IPM is treating mostly with pesticides when a problem arises. PHC is all about improving plant vitality so it can fend off pests with it's immune system. I stress that these plants, turf or ornamental, will also provide a better looking landscape.

I also explain the value and benefits for them in terms of health and safety.
We will not be the low cost provider, we will provide them with more value for the money. If they are not interested in this type of program, I can refer them to someone else.

The interestting thing here is that most people believe that their turf is "healthy" as long as it gets too much water and too much fertilizer.
I'm not in favor of low cost either, just saving them money as it saves me work... :)

As for ornamentals, I can't really get a consenus about the application of N every spring. I personally believe that shrubs and other woody plants are subject to disease with high N, but it doesn't fit well with conventional wisdom. I think 'water sprouts' are a symptom of unhealthy, rapid growth.
With all the voices out there saying the landscape need fertilizer, people tend to think you are a moron if you say it isn't necessary, even damaging...

Smallaxe
01-19-2011, 11:41 AM
I like to compare IPM with Plant Health Care. IPM is treating mostly with pesticides when a problem arises. PHC is all about improving plant vitality so it can fend off pests with it's immune system. I stress that these plants, turf or ornamental, will also provide a better looking landscape.

I also explain the value and benefits for them in terms of health and safety.
We will not be the low cost provider, we will provide them with more value for the money. If they are not interested in this type of program, I can refer them to someone else.

The interestting thing here is that most people believe that their turf is "healthy" as long as it gets too much water and too much fertilizer.
I'm not in favor of low cost either, just saving them money as it saves me work... :)

As for ornamentals, I can't really get a consenus about the application of N every spring. I personally believe that shrubs and other woody plants are subject to disease with high N, but it doesn't fit well with conventional wisdom. I think 'water sprouts' are a symptom of unhealthy, rapid growth.
With all the voices out there saying the landscape need fertilizer, people tend to think you are a moron if you say it isn't necessary, even damaging...

Barefoot James
01-19-2011, 12:10 PM
Well you can talk IPM and PHC, NPK, TTF, BG, CG, AACT and ..... all the other stuff till you are blue in the face and the customer does not care. Being the lost cost provider is DONE - thats called True Green or Scotts. This thread is going nowhere as the real solutions here are not being discussed in depth - real life solutions (not theories) have been proposed here with little to no discussion.
Compelling copy has been stated - I myself have shown you what I do, Compost top dress over seed pretty simple and it works, Bill had some good 'compelling copy' suggestions and so did ecoguy. The rest of this thread is pointless.:dizzy:

The original question was -
What are some practical steps that are easily understood by clients, that maintain beautiful lawns?

Compost and seed - pretty easy to understand.

Smallaxe
01-19-2011, 06:43 PM
Well you can talk IPM and PHC, NPK, TTF, BG, CG, AACT and ..... all the other stuff till you are blue in the face and the customer does not care. Being the lost cost provider is DONE - thats called True Green or Scotts. This thread is going nowhere as the real solutions here are not being discussed in depth - real life solutions (not theories) have been proposed here with little to no discussion.
Compelling copy has been stated - I myself have shown you what I do, Compost top dress over seed pretty simple and it works, Bill had some good 'compelling copy' suggestions and so did ecoguy. The rest of this thread is pointless.:dizzy:

The original question was -
What are some practical steps that are easily understood by clients, that maintain beautiful lawns?

Compost and seed - pretty easy to understand.

You may be correct, if the average Joe HO and business manager, believed that TGCL isn't doing th best job possible. Their turf is green, they've acceped the cost as reasonable, and their weed situation is within the limits they would expect...

The old adage comes into play, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

What I'm talking about is changing the idea of healthy turf, that doesn't need the crutch of synthetic life support without sounding like a 'Snake Oil Salesman'...

Very few people in my neighborhood believe that conventional lawn care is dangerous. Most believe the danger comes from tree hugging goofballs.

I am trying to move beyond the 'beliefs' of the average Joe. I know that turf doesn't need all the foolish apps done by people who make a living at applying those foolish apps. I see the propaganda on all sides of the foolish app issue, as does the client.

In reality, anyones belief system, doesn't change the reality of how the turf will perform. You can believe that over fertilization is making your lawn better, than soil building, but that doesn't make it so. However their belief system will never allow a foot in the door.

If I can get my 'foot in the door' I can save them money, and make for a healthy lawn with safe healthy environment for people and pets to live... but I need to get the foot in the door with something less expensive than a compost app, if possible. I agree that compost with overseeding in the spring, will out perform any squirt and fert, pre-m silliness that currently exists. However, average Joe agrees with most LCOs that the root inhibitor w/high N, is paramount to a healthy weed free lawn.

ICT Bill
01-19-2011, 09:43 PM
You may be correct, if the average Joe HO and business manager, believed that TGCL isn't doing th best job possible. Their turf is green, they've acceped the cost as reasonable, and their weed situation is within the limits they would expect...

The old adage comes into play, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

What I'm talking about is changing the idea of healthy turf, that doesn't need the crutch of synthetic life support without sounding like a 'Snake Oil Salesman'...

Very few people in my neighborhood believe that conventional lawn care is dangerous. Most believe the danger comes from tree hugging goofballs.

I am trying to move beyond the 'beliefs' of the average Joe. I know that turf doesn't need all the foolish apps done by people who make a living at applying those foolish apps. I see the propaganda on all sides of the foolish app issue, as does the client.

In reality, anyones belief system, doesn't change the reality of how the turf will perform. You can believe that over fertilization is making your lawn better, than soil building, but that doesn't make it so. However their belief system will never allow a foot in the door.

If I can get my 'foot in the door' I can save them money, and make for a healthy lawn with safe healthy environment for people and pets to live... but I need to get the foot in the door with something less expensive than a compost app, if possible. I agree that compost with overseeding in the spring, will out perform any squirt and fert, pre-m silliness that currently exists. However, average Joe agrees with most LCOs that the root inhibitor w/high N, is paramount to a healthy weed free lawn.

You said it "save money with organic lawn care, less dead pets"

when I speak to people and say "endocrine system" or endocrine inhibitors" especially women, they know exactly what I am speaking about

most of the herbicides are endocrine disruptor's

they disrupt the endocrine system within a plant and kill it, no carry over to mammals is what the chemical companies say, six legged frogs and fish with male and female reproductive systems almost nationally may give you a clue

Tim Wilson
01-19-2011, 11:01 PM
You said it "save money with organic lawn care, less dead pets"

when I speak to people and say "endocrine system" or endocrine inhibitors" especially women, they know exactly what I am speaking about

most of the herbicides are endocrine disruptor's

they disrupt the endocrine system within a plant and kill it, no carry over to mammals is what the chemical companies say, six legged frogs and fish with male and female reproductive systems almost nationally may give you a clue

Careful Bill, don't get branded a radical,:):laugh: like me:canadaflag:

Smallaxe
01-20-2011, 09:06 AM
You said it "save money with organic lawn care, less dead pets"

when I speak to people and say "endocrine system" or endocrine inhibitors" especially women, they know exactly what I am speaking about

most of the herbicides are endocrine disruptor's

they disrupt the endocrine system within a plant and kill it, no carry over to mammals is what the chemical companies say, six legged frogs and fish with male and female reproductive systems almost nationally may give you a clue

I had heard that insecticides work on the basis of nerve damage, but I hadn't heard about endocrine disruption from herbicides. Are you saying that its the herbicides getting into the frogs and creating the problem with them?
What do you think about the spraying of aluminum. barium, and strontium into the atmosphere, being the cause for the dead birds? Personally I think it had to be something else that was sprayed, but they claim it is just those 3 elements.

Barefoot James
01-20-2011, 05:24 PM
I agree that compost with overseeding in the spring, will out perform any squirt and fert, pre-m silliness that currently exists. However, average Joe agrees with most LCOs that the root inhibitor w/high N, is paramount to a healthy weed free lawn.
Then basically you got nothing - EXCEPT and better product like a Nutrients Plus that at least the filler is organic matter instead of salts!
Use Nutrients Plus and you got your high N and for your spring app broadcast a couple pounds of seed per 1000. This will cost you about $3 per thousand (for the NP and seed) so at least you are in the ball park cost wise - I would say that would be your only available "price program" that is better. Throw the seed in as a free app to pick up new clients and make your existing ones see you do value their business.

Smallaxe
01-20-2011, 07:00 PM
Then basically you got nothing - EXCEPT and better product like a Nutrients Plus that at least the filler is organic matter instead of salts!
Use Nutrients Plus and you got your high N and for your spring app broadcast a couple pounds of seed per 1000. This will cost you about $3 per thousand (for the NP and seed) so at least you are in the ball park cost wise - I would say that would be your only available "price program" that is better. Throw the seed in as a free app to pick up new clients and make your existing ones see you do value their business.

Are you saying that there is no other way to reduce the application of N? and no other way to improve the soil?

I agree that the few extra bucks it takes to add compost in the Spring, here in Wisco, will do more than the 5 apps. of N throughout the 6 month growing season(at best)... Is worth while; not everyone is on board with that... Kind of like Missouri in that respect... the "Show Me" state... :)

I like one response that came in early was' "Improve the soil"..... Are there cultural practices that would 'improve' the soil to the extent that the N that is applied, would work longer, not evaporate as quickly and not leach away as easily?

My point is: we need to conserve the N and make it available to the plants, b4 it is wasted. I'm confident that in the cool season areas, that we can postpone the spring applications, thereby eliminating the hot weather apps, without missing a step.

My ambition is too improve the soil structure, AND encouraging cultural habits that would eliminate a second app of N... With 2 apps out of the picture, surely 1 app of compost or your Nutirent Plus, would eliminate a 3rd app.

All I need is a, "foot in the door" and we are ready to go... The biggest albatross around my neck is the hyperbolic remarks about things that folks here in Wisco don't really believe...

To set the record straight, I am a naturalist that really doesn't appreciate NPK being dumped on frozen ground near lakes and sandy ground in which most of it leaches into the well water and never benefits the plants for which they were intended... Then to deal with the WI-DNR that talks as stupid as they possibly could in order to promote 'Control" rather than an effective solution. Its all politics so I'm trying to find a way around it... :)

ICT Bill
01-20-2011, 07:04 PM
I had heard that insecticides work on the basis of nerve damage, but I hadn't heard about endocrine disruption from herbicides. Are you saying that its the herbicides getting into the frogs and creating the problem with them?
What do you think about the spraying of aluminum. barium, and strontium into the atmosphere, being the cause for the dead birds? Personally I think it had to be something else that was sprayed, but they claim it is just those 3 elements.

Yes the basis of most herbicides these days is to disrupt the endrocrine system within the plant causing plant failure

atrazine is one of the biggest culprits, did you know cities along the Mississippi river that use the river for a water source have to close the inlets in the spring as the cloud of herbicides and fertilizers move south, the toxicity is way over human consumption levels

Smallaxe
01-20-2011, 09:02 PM
Yes the basis of most herbicides these days is to disrupt the endrocrine system within the plant causing plant failure

atrazine is one of the biggest culprits, did you know cities along the Mississippi river that use the river for a water source have to close the inlets in the spring as the cloud of herbicides and fertilizers move south, the toxicity is way over human consumption levels

Yes, I do believe it... We have it in our groundwater to this day. It was outlawed in this area about 15 - 25 years ago. But we still have it in many localities...

Barefoot James
01-20-2011, 09:06 PM
... but I need to get the foot in the door with something less expensive than a compost app, if possible.
Axe this is what you said not me - basically you got nothing like I said before - EXCEPT some sort of Nutrients Plus program to give them the excessive N you said they needed and the price you keep talking about. You can't do Price, N and Improve the Soil with out biology, minerials and humus - if you throw out the compost like you did you are left with Nutrients Plus - This at least gives you biology, minerials and some humus.

Good Luck!

Smallaxe
01-21-2011, 06:27 AM
Yes, I do believe it... We have it in our groundwater to this day. It was outlawed in this area about 15 - 25 years ago. But we still have it in many localities...

I realized after I went to bed that I was thinking about aldicarb, and Bill was talking about atrazine... Sorry for the error... I'll shut up now... :)

Smallaxe
01-21-2011, 06:51 AM
Axe this is what you said not me - basically you got nothing like I said before - EXCEPT some sort of Nutrients Plus program to give them the excessive N you said they needed and the price you keep talking about. You can't do Price, N and Improve the Soil with out biology, minerials and humus - if you throw out the compost like you did you are left with Nutrients Plus - This at least gives you biology, minerials and some humus.

Good Luck!

Well I do have the idea of proper irrigation and mulching in the clippings and using sugar/molasses to change the 'thatch' into food and build up the soil structure from that simple and inexpensive way.

I was hoping for other ideas, but mostly how to sell it to the client. Most people don't respond to the fear tactic of destroying Wisco with 5 apps of cides/fert, even though they should.

Perhaps just selling an app of compost, or Nutrients Plus, in the spring and letting people know that it replaces 2 apps of spring fert. [Which they shouldn't have anyways.] Most squirt and ferts apply b4 the turf breaks dormancy, the compost would go on after a couple of mowings, then cheap fert b4 the heat of summer.

I think you might be right, why even bother if compost is too expensive for someone who doesn't want to give up 2 cheap apps... :)

OrganicsMaine
01-21-2011, 10:52 AM
FOr new accounts, and budget allowing, I will be starting with a compost/seed app in April, then in mid may an NP screamin' green, then in late June Alfalfa meal. July, CT w/molassass. Aug./Sept. CT & Seed, Oct. NP

Insect control would be IPM

Thoughts on the program?

I don't approach customer's with the fear factor either, they usually shut down. I usually just ask why, if I can produce comparable results, wouldn't you eliminate the pesticides etc? If nothing else, start with an NP program, this will get you good results w/out the compost. Once you develop the relationship, then you can upsell the 'post app.

phasthound
01-21-2011, 12:07 PM
A good substitute for compost top dressing is NP 4-3-1 applied at 20lbs/K with a regular spreader.

Snowy66
01-21-2011, 12:56 PM
Hey Barry, is the 4-3-1 available at the El Dorado plant? That's the Dynamic Duo right?

phasthound
01-21-2011, 03:03 PM
You'll have to contact me privately for product information.

Hey, you've grown your business well. Care to share how you present your case to prospects with this forum?

JDUtah
01-21-2011, 07:44 PM
nevermind ill pm

Az Gardener
01-22-2011, 12:13 AM
My pitch is something like this.

The product we use buffers the salts (big problem here) I can usually point out some salt burn within 15' of the front door.

It breaks up compacted soil and allows the water to penetrate deeper and prevents runoff so the water put down on the landscape actually stays on the landscape.

Our product does not cause that big flush of fleshy, watery growth that is so attractive to pests. So our product makes the plants naturally more resistant to pests and disease.

It allows the plants roots to penetrate deeper so we get a bigger nutrient trey to draw from. Over time this also allows us to water less frequently which minimizes weed growth.

Plus the fact that I practically give away fertilizer injectors to consistently apply the product helps too.

In one of the earlier posts someone said they had a topdresser I am guessing its a machine. Someone have a link or picture and ballpark cost of one of those? Does Walker make an attachment?

Barefoot James
01-22-2011, 12:38 AM
My pitch is something like this.

The product we use buffers the salts (big problem here) I can usually point out some salt burn within 15' of the front door.


I hope you are using lots of humus. Thats the only way you are ever going to fix the salt issues.

Az Gardener
01-22-2011, 01:22 AM
I hope you are using lots of humus. Thats the only way you are ever going to fix the salt issues.

I don't know if you can fix them here with water that comes out of the tap at 8.2 and everything needing to be irrigated even something that is fixed now will be broken again in a short time with our water.

I have been using this product for almost 20 years, all I can tell you is it works! The guy that makes the stuff starts explaining stuff to me and he quickly gets over my head. I don't need to know how it works, just that it does. Here is a link if you have questions http://biofeedsolutions.com/ I use about 25% of the multicare and 75% of the gro max in my injectors. They put product out at about 2000 to 1.

Smallaxe
01-22-2011, 07:40 AM
FOr new accounts, and budget allowing, I will be starting with a compost/seed app in April, then in mid may an NP screamin' green, then in late June Alfalfa meal. July, CT w/molassass. Aug./Sept. CT & Seed, Oct. NP

Insect control would be IPM

Thoughts on the program?

I don't approach customer's with the fear factor either, they usually shut down. I usually just ask why, if I can produce comparable results, wouldn't you eliminate the pesticides etc? If nothing else, start with an NP program, this will get you good results w/out the compost. Once you develop the relationship, then you can upsell the 'post app.

Do you think you could get by without the July app, and possibly combine the may/june app into 1? At least with compost you can't really put on 'too much'...

Do you/they typically mulch mow the lawns?

Smallaxe
01-22-2011, 08:05 AM
My pitch is something like this.

The product we use buffers the salts (big problem here) I can usually point out some salt burn within 15' of the front door.

It breaks up compacted soil and allows the water to penetrate deeper and prevents runoff so the water put down on the landscape actually stays on the landscape.

Our product does not cause that big flush of fleshy, watery growth that is so attractive to pests. So our product makes the plants naturally more resistant to pests and disease.

It allows the plants roots to penetrate deeper so we get a bigger nutrient trey to draw from. Over time this also allows us to water less frequently which minimizes weed growth.

Plus the fact that I practically give away fertilizer injectors to consistently apply the product helps too.

In one of the earlier posts someone said they had a topdresser I am guessing its a machine. Someone have a link or picture and ballpark cost of one of those? Does Walker make an attachment?

That bio-feed sounds like it is similar to compost tea. I believe that stuff works as you say in remediating the soils, I wonder do you have compost available and whether people typically mulch mow their lawns down there?

I would think that in a sandy salty desert, people grab and hold any opportunity at OM whenever possible...

phasthound
01-22-2011, 09:07 AM
In one of the earlier posts someone said they had a topdresser I am guessing its a machine. Someone have a link or picture and ballpark cost of one of those? Does Walker make an attachment?

http://www.earthandturf.com/ I have the 100sp.

OrganicsMaine
01-22-2011, 09:48 AM
Do you think you could get by without the July app, and possibly combine the may/june app into 1? At least with compost you can't really put on 'too much'...

Do you/they typically mulch mow the lawns?

I probably could, but I like to be on the property to gauge how things look, and it gives me an opportunity to upsell other services. It seems that offering an organic program really puts a lawn under the microscope....literally and figuritively! So I want to make sure that I can get any weed issues ASAP. I am planning on having a few 5 gal. buckets with 'post and a few different bags of seed with me at all times so I can pop a weed out and throw down 'post and seed. We are usually cool enough all year with enough rain so that it will work even in July.

If they have a mowing service, usually not mulched. If it is the homeowner, they usually do what I advise and mulch. Most of my customers have a service though. It is this reason that I am considering offering a complete landscape maintenance service including mowing, beds, spring/fall clean ups etc.

Barefoot James
01-22-2011, 12:09 PM
I don't know if you can fix them here with water that comes out of the tap at 8.2 and everything needing to be irrigated even something that is fixed now will be broken again in a short time with our water.

I have been using this product for almost 20 years, all I can tell you is it works! The guy that makes the stuff starts explaining stuff to me and he quickly gets over my head. I don't need to know how it works, just that it does. Here is a link if you have questions http://biofeedsolutions.com/ I use about 25% of the multicare and 75% of the gro max in my injectors. They put product out at about 2000 to 1.
You have the best stuff on the planet of in Albuquerque, NM - check out www.humates.com - Company called Mesa Verde - Joel and Bruce Reid. Tell them James from KY sent you. This stuff will buffer the salts big time and is totally what your soil is lacking. Another product that for sure works is also out of NM called Soil Secrets - Dr Melendrez is a genius - lots of paper and pics on his site about how salty soils have been totally remediated with SS cultured humus and mycorrhizae.

starry night
01-22-2011, 12:11 PM
Does Walker make an attachment?

I am a Walker user and also know the Ohio distributor personally so I can tell you for sure there is no attachment for topdressing. Topdressers range from small push spreaders to machines like the one phasthound referenced on up to large tow-behinds such as they use on golf courses. Excuse me if you know all of that.

Az Gardener
01-23-2011, 04:54 PM
That bio-feed sounds like it is similar to compost tea. I believe that stuff works as you say in remediating the soils, I wonder do you have compost available and whether people typically mulch mow their lawns down there?

I would think that in a sandy salty desert, people grab and hold any opportunity at OM whenever possible...

Our opportunity to mulch lawns is limited here because of the climate. In the summer I have been told it is just too hot and dry for the for the microbes needed to break down the lawn on the surface of the ground. We mulch the lawns in a brief period from about now-late April

There is lots of compost available. Our soil is mostly heavy clay here in the Phoenix area. If you get up on a mountain side or just at the base of one you run into a lot of decomposing granite as a soil base and it flushes like a toilet. You can run water 24-7 and never see it puddle. We also have caliche layers/pockets that are very hard and they don't let water penetrate so they cause problems too.

Smallaxe
01-24-2011, 06:15 AM
So your grass clippings become mummified too. Sounds like you guys really got a challenge for turf.

Kiril
01-24-2011, 09:57 AM
Our opportunity to mulch lawns is limited here because of the climate. In the summer I have been told it is just too hot and dry for the for the microbes needed to break down the lawn on the surface of the ground. We mulch the lawns in a brief period from about now-late April

Not following this line of thought, especially considering temperatures compost piles will reach. One might also think if it is too hot and dry for decomposition to occur, then it would also be too hot and dry for turf to grow.

JDUtah
01-24-2011, 02:37 PM
Not following this line of thought, especially considering temperatures compost piles will reach. One might also think if it is too hot and dry for decomposition to occur, then it would also be too hot and dry for turf to grow.

I was thinking the same thing.

phasthound
01-24-2011, 05:13 PM
Kiril & JD thinking the same thing?!?!?!?!?

Be afraid, be very afraid. :)

starry night
01-24-2011, 05:16 PM
Kiril & JD thinking the same thing?!?!?!?!?

Be afraid, be very afraid. :)

I think that if you put each in the "proverbial" sound-proof booth and asked a series of questions, there would be plenty they would agree on. But they wouldn't have any fun that way.

ecoguy
01-24-2011, 06:38 PM
Kiril & JD thinking the same thing?!?!?!?!?

Be afraid, be very afraid. :)

haha, I was thinking the same thing. They should start their own show. Turf Wars...

Barefoot James
01-24-2011, 06:53 PM
Would not be a fair fight Kiril has forgotten more than most folks will ever know. :weightlifter: He is one of the smartest folks I have ever communicated with. Agree or not he backs up his information. Very well founded and accurate. No gray areas with Kiril.:nono:

starry night
01-24-2011, 08:12 PM
A lot of folks are put off by Kiril because he seems so sure of himself.
But he appears that way simply because he doesn't argue what he doesn't know. There are plenty of times when he makes statements that he will label as his opinion. Most people don't notice those statements or choose to ignore them.

Az Gardener
01-24-2011, 09:16 PM
I guess the forgotton factor is hot and dry you need moisture to get a compost pile cooking. But happy to play my small part in this rare event.

ICT Bill
01-24-2011, 10:32 PM
A lot of folks are put off by Kiril because he seems so sure of himself.
But he appears that way simply because he doesn't argue what he doesn't know. There are plenty of times when he makes statements that he will label as his opinion. Most people don't notice those statements or choose to ignore them.

How do you know that Kiril is a "he" or a "she" you need to prove that you are labeling correctly, I also want the data on your research

just joking, lets have a little more fun and share information

JDUtah
01-25-2011, 12:43 AM
Would not be a fair fight Kiril has forgotten more than most folks will ever know. :weightlifter: He is one of the smartest folks I have ever communicated with. Agree or not he backs up his information. Very well founded and accurate. No gray areas with Kiril.:nono:

Hey now, publications don't grow grass. :nono: :laugh:

Kiril
01-25-2011, 09:56 AM
I guess the forgotton factor is hot and dry you need moisture to get a compost pile cooking. But happy to play my small part in this rare event.

Yes Az, but you also need moisture to keep a lawn alive in an (semi-) arid environment.

Kiril
01-25-2011, 10:01 AM
How do you know that Kiril is a "he" or a "she" you need to prove that you are labeling correctly, I also want the data on your research

just joking, lets have a little more fun and share information

It's he ... and he has nearly 20 years of professional field experience (JD) in addition to the 10+ years of higher education.

jonthepain
01-26-2011, 01:40 PM
...there would be plenty they would agree on. But they wouldn't have any fun that way.
rofl and neither would we :laugh: