PDA

View Full Version : Fertilizer bans


South Florida Lawns
01-23-2011, 11:36 PM
This past year I have seen a lot of yellowing lawns due to the ban. Hell i cant even buy anything off the shelf for my own lawn anymore. I notified my customers last year to increase their watering cycles . What are your guys thoughts on this? I may get into topdressing this spring.

Landscape Poet
01-24-2011, 02:50 AM
This past year I have seen a lot of yellowing lawns due to the ban. Hell i cant even buy anything off the shelf for my own lawn anymore. I notified my customers last year to increase their watering cycles . What are your guys thoughts on this? I may get into topdressing this spring.

Is your ban a complete blackout period? Or is it one in which you just have to get your BMP to apply during that period?


watering may help a little, but I like the topdressing idea much better. It should not only give a place for new microbes to come in during a time in which they will not be getting zapped by the salts of fertilizer, but of course it will help retain moisture when it is applied, help keep any nutrients that you do apply in the root zone longer. The benefits are to numerous to list, so if you can find the time to explain this to your clients, it could be a real money maker for you.

I do not have a ban in my county but in Orange county (a area i service) there is a ban during the heat of the season, but you are allowed to still apply if you have your BMP certification.

Patriot Services
01-24-2011, 09:16 AM
Topdressing is always a good idea. Start with a soil sample to see exactly what you need. Pasco and Hillsborough are still selling supplies. If you haven't taken the BMP class now is a great time. Even if you only want to work on your own lawn it's great info. The lawn guy should have the neighborhood trophy lawn.
Posted via Mobile Device

Ric
01-24-2011, 11:39 AM
Attention Lee and Sarasota Counties with fertilizer Black out. Contact LS member Fl-landscape and beg him to work with you. He has a Professional power driven Top Dresser and Class B CDL 14 yard truck to haul compost. His equipment is still in great shape and there is no way you could top dress yourself as economical as he does. In addition he can offer you full service Pest & Weed Control.

Without getting too technical Top dress is the way to go on our Sandy Soil. It adds Water and Chemical Holding power to the sand. Use this in conjunction with SLOW RELEASE Synthetics creates a year round Green response. This is called a Bridge Program because it uses both Orgasmic and Synthetic products or the best of both worlds. Studies by the U of F have proven properly managed Bridge programs have a positive impact on our environment. 1st these applications are less prone to leaching or run off and the healthier turf acts as a filter to inhibit leaching or run off by other chemicals.

Patriot Services
01-24-2011, 11:46 AM
Florida, where we have "soil" in our sand.
Posted via Mobile Device

Ric
01-24-2011, 11:54 AM
Florida, where we have "soil" in our sand.
Posted via Mobile Device

Patriot

There actually is a Green Belt in Florida with excellent soil. However Coastal S. W. Florida is not that area. I can't speak for your area but I have pulled enough soil samples from my area to know exactly what is lacking.

Patriot Services
01-24-2011, 12:05 PM
Seems all the stucco boxes built in my area are on leveled sand with the only soil being what is on the sod. Looks great for a while. I would think the old orange groves they turn into developments would have decent soil.
Posted via Mobile Device

Ric
01-24-2011, 12:22 PM
Seems all the stucco boxes built in my area are on leveled sand with the only soil being what is on the sod. Looks great for a while. I would think the old orange groves they turn into developments would have decent soil.
Posted via Mobile Device

Patriot

Most successful Orange Gloves were in fact planted on better soil. But Look where they are????? They are not the water front canal property that has the big bucks for a trophy Yard. Orange Groves are inland and moving farther south each years because of our climate change.

Fact is blame the poor soil on the builder. They save about $ 200 bucks in my area by using Crapola for final fill and grade instead of Top soil. If it is behind the walls or under the ground who cares?? Plastic Pipe running to Gold faucets.

fl-landscapes
01-24-2011, 02:56 PM
Attention Lee and Sarasota Counties with fertilizer Black out. Contact LS member Fl-landscape and beg him to work with you. He has a Professional power driven Top Dresser and Class B CDL 14 yard truck to haul compost. His equipment is still in great shape and there is no way you could top dress yourself as economical as he does. In addition he can offer you full service Pest & Weed Control.

Without getting too technical Top dress is the way to go on our Sandy Soil. It adds Water and Chemical Holding power to the sand. Use this in conjunction with SLOW RELEASE Synthetics creates a year round Green response. This is called a Bridge Program because it uses both Orgasmic and Synthetic products or the best of both worlds. Studies by the U of F have proven properly managed Bridge programs have a positive impact on our environment. 1st these applications are less prone to leaching or run off and the healthier turf acts as a filter to inhibit leaching or run off by other chemicals.

Ric, you talking about this guy? Thanks for the free advertisment. Those are not \gaps in coverage you see, just the areas the tires go over and push the compost down into the turf. And that particular spot on the property isnt in great shape, bermuda mixed in and brown due to frost

TheGoat
01-24-2011, 03:12 PM
Attention Lee and Sarasota Counties with fertilizer Black out. Contact LS member Fl-landscape and beg him to work with you. He has a Professional power driven Top Dresser and Class B CDL 14 yard truck to haul compost. His equipment is still in great shape and there is no way you could top dress yourself as economical as he does. In addition he can offer you full service Pest & Weed Control.

Without getting too technical Top dress is the way to go on our Sandy Soil. It adds Water and Chemical Holding power to the sand. Use this in conjunction with SLOW RELEASE Synthetics creates a year round Green response. This is called a Bridge Program because it uses both Orgasmic and Synthetic products or the best of both worlds. Studies by the U of F have proven properly managed Bridge programs have a positive impact on our environment. 1st these applications are less prone to leaching or run off and the healthier turf acts as a filter to inhibit leaching or run off by other chemicals.


Lmao!

funny!

Patriot Services
01-24-2011, 03:59 PM
Ric is just multi-tasking.
Posted via Mobile Device

gregory
01-24-2011, 04:49 PM
go where the sugar cane is grown if you want to see some good soil.....

South Florida Lawns
01-24-2011, 06:10 PM
I have a customer in a new subdivision that was all former groves and they scraped all the black soil out screened it and sold it as topsoil.

Ric
01-24-2011, 10:12 PM
I have a customer in a new subdivision that was all former groves and they scraped all the black soil out screened it and sold it as topsoil.

South

That is SOP to remove the top soil. The Builder wants to get down to hard packed Marla. Even then the concrete floor slab cracks all to Heck and gone before the framing is finished. The problem comes when don't replace the final fill and grade with a good top soil.

Interesting enough I have a Canal Neighborhood with the best back yards you can find. The reason is the builder pushed the top soil to the back so he doesn't have to move final fill and grade dirt to the back yard. In the mean time he uses El Crapo for fill on the front and side yards.

BShaffer
01-24-2011, 11:35 PM
ric,

what r u thoughts on a ol fashion milorganite program. When I was down in FL, that quickly became my favorite product. So much so that I had the fert plants use Milorganite as the filler on my blends. I would think now with the bans that might just be a good program, milorganite a few times a year and done. Thoughts?

Ric
01-24-2011, 11:54 PM
ric,

what r u thoughts on a ol fashion milorganite program. When I was down in FL, that quickly became my favorite product. So much so that I had the fert plants use Milorganite as the filler on my blends. I would think now with the bans that might just be a good program, milorganite a few times a year and done. Thoughts?

You said it, Milorganite is a great product and I use it all the time. If you can't topdress, Milorganite is the next best thing. However I don't want to take away from the value of Top Dressing.

Interesting Fact here in Florida. All of our sewage treat plants sell their solids to Sod Farmers as a Top Dressing. That should tell you something.

HOWEVER Milorganite is not a Complete Fertilizer and must be supplemented with synthetics.

tallrick
01-25-2011, 02:57 PM
Is it not true that golf courses and farms ( the biggest polluters) are still able to fertilize? What about people who use in-line fertilizing systems with their irrigation? Personally I inject ammonia waste from making biogas and iron phosphate to irrigate my "lawn" which grows thick and green despite growing on rock covered by compost from chipped yard waste. Most of the manure I use for making boigas comes from a friend who raises pigs. The compost left over is far better than milorganite in my opinion.

BShaffer
01-25-2011, 11:54 PM
tallrick, bet that pig manure has a nice odor!?!, as far as your other comment about golf courses and farmers being the largest polluters, well I can't speak for farmers, but golf courses are the most watched and scrutinized targets present. each golf course has a huge bulls eye on it. So,,, no, they are not the largest polluters, its John Q. Public doing it himself. Quickly, almost all golf course superintendents can read a fertilizer label and tell you what and how everything is working for them in the soil. Can john Q. public do that? On a 100 acres property with a limited budget for chem and fert you have to be sure everything is working for ya. Nothing to waste!!

Ric, When I was down there I had a great blend. Sunniland (who I think is the largest blender of Milorganite) blended a sweet blend. It was a 2-0-18 with like 1500 lbs Milorganite and 250 Sulpo Mag and 250 of Murate of Potash, or something like that, and the great part it was like $550/ton. I loved it

Ric
01-26-2011, 01:28 AM
tallrick, bet that pig manure has a nice odor!?!, as far as your other comment about golf courses and farmers being the largest polluters, well I can't speak for farmers, but golf courses are the most watched and scrutinized targets present. each golf course has a huge bulls eye on it. So,,, no, they are not the largest polluters, its John Q. Public doing it himself. Quickly, almost all golf course superintendents can read a fertilizer label and tell you what and how everything is working for them in the soil. Can john Q. public do that? On a 100 acres property with a limited budget for chem and fert you have to be sure everything is working for ya. Nothing to waste!!

Ric, When I was down there I had a great blend. Sunniland (who I think is the largest blender of Milorganite) blended a sweet blend. It was a 2-0-18 with like 1500 lbs Milorganite and 250 Sulpo Mag and 250 of Murate of Potash, or something like that, and the great part it was like $550/ton. I loved it


B

I would love to buy any Fertilizer for $ 550 a ton right now. At one time Wally World had the best retail price on Milorganite at $ 5.95 a 40 pound bag. If I drove 2 hours to Orlando I could buy 6-2-0 Milorganite for $ 450 a ton at one time. Today $ 11.00 a 40 pound bag is a good price.

At Present time a Local Recycle yard has 6 year old Tub grinding for $ 5.00 a yard. Fl Landscape had some compost left over and not only delivered to me for free but fill 15 25 gallon container for me. I planted Tomatoes, Cumbers, Bell Peppers, and several Melons all with out fertilizer. They all did extremely well and I am super happy with lack of sand and organic contend of that compost. The supply is large because it comes from the Hurricane Charlie Clean up.

fl-landscapes
01-26-2011, 08:54 AM
B

I would love to buy any Fertilizer for $ 550 a ton right now. At one time Wally World had the best retail price on Milorganite at $ 5.95 a 40 pound bag. If I drove 2 hours to Orlando I could buy 6-2-0 Milorganite for $ 450 a ton at one time. Today $ 11.00 a 40 pound bag is a good price.

At Present time a Local Recycle yard has 6 year old Tub grinding for $ 5.00 a yard. Fl Landscape had some compost left over and not only delivered to me for free but fill 15 25 gallon container for me. I planted Tomatoes, Cumbers, Bell Peppers, and several Melons all with out fertilizer. They all did extremely well and I am super happy with lack of sand and organic contend of that compost. The supply is large because it comes from the Hurricane Charlie Clean up.

Just make me a feesh salad and we will call it even:laugh: Actually it was left over from a doctor client of yours that you reffered me to so I was happy to give it to you.

HayBay
01-26-2011, 06:58 PM
Love the new sub forum guys. Florida LawnCare.

What the heck is the details on this ban.

I hear fertilzer ban and I hear use slow release?

This ban will be here next when word gets out.

Patriot Services
01-26-2011, 07:44 PM
It was a knee jerk reaction by Pinellas county to what it perceived was caused by commercial sources. Thankfully Hillsborough county said "hold on now, we need more proof before we impact people's livelihood". They are still awaiting this proof that it's caused by professional applicators.

BTW Milorganite was 10.41 a bag at Walmart today.

Landscape Poet
01-26-2011, 10:38 PM
.

What the heck is the details on this ban.

I hear fertilzer ban and I hear use slow release?



Orange County's is not as complete blackout like some. Over all ours makes a lot of sense. The only issue most of us have with it is the fact that it is truly just a way to collect revenue. Each applicator has to take the BMP course offered to be able to apply just straight fertilizer. Given the number of applicators in the county that adds up as a decent revenue source. I must say that they offered several free chances to go through the BMP this year as well.

http://www.orangecountyfl.net/Portals/0/Resources/Internet/DEPARTMENTS/CEsrvcs/EPD/docs/FERTILIZERORDINANCE10609.pdf

Patriot Services
01-26-2011, 11:11 PM
BMP should be mandatory to just cut grass. Too many yoyo's cutting SA at 2.5 inches. Maybe make it mandatory for HO's or LCO's just to buy anything. There Florida budget crisis fixed.
Posted via Mobile Device

HayBay
01-26-2011, 11:18 PM
great link thanks.

Now that its on paper, the environmentalists can start tightening up on the specs.

Landscape Poet
01-26-2011, 11:41 PM
BMP should be mandatory to just cut grass. Too many yoyo's cutting SA at 2.5 inches. Maybe make it mandatory for HO's or LCO's just to buy anything. There Florida budget crisis fixed.
Posted via Mobile Device

I would almost agree with you, but I pick up so many sod jobs in a given year as well as accounts from lawn boys who do not know what they are doing. Especially enjoy the phone calls I get that go something like this. " I got your number from "so and so" and they stated you could help. My lawn guy has destroyed my yard. I paid him to mow and take care of the fertilizer and pest control, can you come look at my lawn?" Now this kind of phone call is most likely to happen in July and August and I know 90% of the time I am going to a lawn in which 90% of it has been destroyed by chinch bugs. This type of call usually results in a lawn that is being cut at the 2.5 inch rage you speak of. :laugh::laugh:

tallrick
01-27-2011, 01:49 AM
tallrick, bet that pig manure has a nice odor!?!,
Oh don't remind me. Thankfully once the tank is closed I do not have to smell anything bad. The biogas takes a couple of weeks to form, and is a great alternative to natural gas. The water wash filter collects ammonia so it's easy to just inject it in the irrigation system. Once gassed out it's relatively odor-free dirt. Then the disgusting process of refilling the tank, yuck!

Ric
01-27-2011, 11:20 AM
While I am anything but a Tree Hugger I must admit our Harbors and Bays are much cleaner today than when I was a kid. I have seen a change. At one time we could swim any where with out fear of Gators. But we where also swimming in water where Raw Sewage was dumped.

Today there are a number of Gator attacks each year in Clean Water because of the Tree Huggers.

Speaking of the Fertilizer bans or Black out. U of F recently released a study Than I lost with a computer crash. But They basically said the Fertilizer Ban was causing more pollution than Properly applied Fertilizer. They pointed out that Health Turf acts as a filter.

Florida also commissioned a study about Fertilizer Laws on a state level. Once again I lost it in a computer crash but I know I posted Links on Lawnsite way back when. It is that study that My county used as their Fertilizer law. Counties around us followed the Tree Hugger Law of Sarasota county with the Black out dates. It is this law that U of F condemns

Kiril
01-27-2011, 11:56 AM
Speaking of the Fertilizer bans or Black out. U of F recently released a study Than I lost with a computer crash.

You mean that study they recently pulled from publication? Gonna have to find another fertilizer industry funded study to hang your hat on Ric.

HayBay
01-27-2011, 12:01 PM
links please. I would like to read why it was pulled.

Kiril
01-27-2011, 12:09 PM
links please. I would like to read why it was pulled.

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20110103/article/101031037

If it was pulled earlier this month, it has been "republished" given you can now access the "study".

Ric
01-27-2011, 12:12 PM
You mean that study they recently pulled from publication? Gonna have to find another fertilizer industry funded study to hang your hat on Ric.

Kiril

I guess being a Dick on Lawnsite is your way of getting even for being picked last in every pick up game as a kid. I really feel sorry for you that you can't offer any education and only choose to beat up on those to try to. I guess all those year of rejection take a toll on your social skills and well as your Mental Health.

Kiril
01-27-2011, 12:24 PM
Kiril

I guess being a Dick on Lawnsite is your way of getting even for being picked last in every pick up game as a kid. I really feel sorry for you that you can't offer any education and only choose to beat up on those to try to. I guess all those year of rejection take a toll on your social skills and well as your Mental Health.

I see you still can't act like an adult.

The "study" you like to hang your hat on is nothing more than a set of assumptions and "what ifs". Perhaps if you read the paper objectively you might realize this.

fl-landscapes
01-27-2011, 12:45 PM
Kiril

I guess being a Dick on Lawnsite is your way of getting even for being picked last in every pick up game as a kid. I really feel sorry for you that you can't offer any education and only choose to beat up on those to try to. I guess all those year of rejection take a toll on your social skills and well as your Mental Health.

Are you trying to say Kirils parents should have spent more time hugging him and less time hugging trees? Poor little kiril.

Patriot Services
01-27-2011, 12:47 PM
And we were off to such a good start with everybody getting along.
Posted via Mobile Device

Kiril
01-27-2011, 01:38 PM
And we were off to such a good start with everybody getting along.

That is what happens when you have a couple adults acting like 10 year olds.

fl-landscapes
01-27-2011, 03:17 PM
That is what happens when you have a couple adults acting like 10 year olds.

Unfortunately it appears you think everyone on here is a ten year old and you lecture to all the "little boys" here, most are very tired of it. Its sad you find no pleasure in helping people, only in insulting them and flexing your vocabulary to make your ego feel good. Dare I say insecurity issues?

Kiril
01-27-2011, 03:38 PM
Unfortunately it appears you think everyone on here is a ten year old and you lecture to all the "little boys" here, most are very tired of it. Its sad you find no pleasure in helping people, only in insulting them and flexing your vocabulary to make your ego feel good. Dare I say insecurity issues?

Funny you mention insulting .... because you and Ric never do that .... do you? :rolleyes:

Care to explain how my initial post in this thread was insulting or deserved the response I got from Ric? One only needs to read the posts by Ric et. al. to find truth in my statement. In fact, didn't you just recently post in the irrigation forum for no other reason than to talk shiit about me?

my guess is he teaches soils science at some community college. Too pompous and arrogant to survive as a service provider in the real world. I think he failed in the service sector and despises everyone who has any success doing it without being a soil chemist like he is. My vote NO CUSTOMERS......or friends:laugh:

In fact, 99.9% of yours and Ric's posts directed at me are childish attempts at character assassination for NO reason at all, and yet you feel it appropriate to sit in judgment over me? ROFL.

Ric
01-27-2011, 04:28 PM
Funny you mention insulting .... because you and Ric never do that .... do you? :rolleyes:

Care to explain how my initial post in this thread was insulting or deserved the response I got from Ric? One only needs to read the posts by Ric et. al. to find truth in my statement. In fact, didn't you just recently post in the irrigation forum for no other reason than to talk shiit about me?



In fact, 99.9% of yours and Ric's posts directed at me are childish attempts at character assassination for NO reason at all, and yet you feel it appropriate to sit in judgment over me? ROFL.


Sure Kiril let us look at your response to me.

You mean that study they recently pulled from publication? Gonna have to find another fertilizer industry funded study to hang your hat on Ric.


Kiril

First you have no Idea what Study I am talking about and to my Knowledge that study is sitting in limbo waiting for our Elected officials to vote on a state wide Fertilizer law to be effective January of 2014 and will over ride any present county or city ordinances.

But this is typical of all your posts that look to make the thread starter look like a dummy. Sure I pound a few people who I know are either applying illegal or are so egotistical that they can only brag how good they are. HOWEVER I ALSO START THREADS TRYING MY BEST TO HELP PEOPLE BY USING LAYMAN TERMS AND CUTTING TO THE CHASE. You on the other hand knock those attempts and get the thread deleted. The last Thread you got deleted, You could find nothing to correct so you attacked me on the fact I had no University Website to back it up.


Maybe it is time for Kiril to grow up and see himself as others see him. Maybe it is time for Kiril to either quit Lawnsite or march to the drum instead of being out of step. Remember this is not a college classroom and most people reading here don't use or under stand technical term. However They are not dumb and can understand Ideas presented in Layman terms. BTW Layman terms much like the thread you wanted a University link even when you could find any thing wrong.

fl-landscapes
01-27-2011, 04:51 PM
Funny you mention insulting .... because you and Ric never do that .... do you? :rolleyes:

Care to explain how my initial post in this thread was insulting or deserved the response I got from Ric? One only needs to read the posts by Ric et. al. to find truth in my statement. In fact, didn't you just recently post in the irrigation forum for no other reason than to talk shiit about me?



In fact, 99.9% of yours and Ric's posts directed at me are childish attempts at character assassination for NO reason at all, and yet you feel it appropriate to sit in judgment over me? ROFL.

I guess its a case of what go's around comes around. Pull up all my posts 99.9% of them are me trying to help someone out (if I can) yours on the other hand are 99.9% talking down to people, belittling them and giving them "homework". I actually think you could be a big help to a lot of people if you would just step down of your high horse and lend a hand to someone who is looking for assistance.

HayBay
01-27-2011, 05:42 PM
Not trying to get in the way here. I have my own lynching going on in another thread.

I appreciate the link and I will be watching for the revised verison of this study to understand better.


Quote: "I'm pulling it only because the paper that's going to replace it is even stronger," Payne said, referring to a new study that is expected this year. "I am trying to show our critics that I'm listening to them."

Updated:

http://fyn.ifas.ufl.edu/pdf/SS49600.pdf
Just found the link

HayBay
01-27-2011, 06:25 PM
Found this topic here too, same link to Florida Website

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=295298

Ric
01-27-2011, 07:03 PM
Haybay

Thank You,

I want to say if any one is not living and working in Florida then maybe they should stay out of the Florida Forum. However I welcome your input. I was spraying today and what posting I did was from my Truck.

This is the link to the recommendation currently before Florida Legislation that I was referring to. It has not been pulled off publication in any way as Kiril might try and have us believe. I believe if you study the whole thing you will find it is a very reasonable law that while it does make me change some of my applications, I can live with. What Makes a good law is how well it is accepted by the public and this law is very acceptable as compared to the Black Out laws passed locally by those with less understanding and Liberal views. These Black out laws are being broken every day and can not be enforced.

http://consensus.fsu.edu/Fertilizer-Task-Force/index.html

Here is the other Link I was referring to about the consequences of Fertilizer Black out. Once again it is still being Published and our California Whiz might have you believe it is not.

http://fyn.ifas.ufl.edu/pdf/SS49600.pdf


Lawnsite was started with the intentions to share information the same as any team might work together. That means we should be ready to get our fellow members rebound and sink the shot together. Not sit on the side lines and roll marbles across the Playing field. I only hope those who are being attacked in several thread right now learn to Play ball.

Kiril
01-27-2011, 08:59 PM
First you have no Idea what Study I am talking about and to my Knowledge that study is sitting in limbo waiting for our Elected officials to vote on a state wide Fertilizer law to be effective January of 2014 and will over ride any present county or city ordinances.

Actually Ric, I do. You have referenced that "study" time and time again. If that isn't the study, by all means let everyone know which one it is.

But this is typical of all your posts that look to make the thread starter look like a dummy.

I beg to differ. Pointing out inaccurate information is not "making people look like dummies"...... they did that all by themselves. If you don't want people to correct you, make sure your information is accurate. Pretty damn simple isn't it?

Sure I pound a few people who I know are either applying illegal or are so egotistical that they can only brag how good they are. HOWEVER I ALSO START THREADS TRYING MY BEST TO HELP PEOPLE BY USING LAYMAN TERMS AND CUTTING TO THE CHASE.You on the other hand knock those attempts and get the thread deleted. The last Thread you got deleted, You could find nothing to correct so you attacked me on the fact I had no University Website to back it up.

Actually Ric ... you were the one who begged the mods to close the thread, not me. Furthermore, it was you who was in error and could not admit it. Funny how that works. Stop making excuses for the errors you have made.

Maybe it is time for Kiril to grow up and see himself as others see him. Maybe it is time for Kiril to either quit Lawnsite or march to the drum instead of being out of step. Remember this is not a college classroom and most people reading here don't use or under stand technical term. However They are not dumb and can understand Ideas presented in Layman terms. BTW Layman terms much like the thread you wanted a University link even when you could find any thing wrong.

Don't really care how people see me. Accurate information is what I care about, and if you can't provide it, then either don't post or expect to be corrected.

Kiril
01-27-2011, 09:11 PM
I guess its a case of what go's around comes around. Pull up all my posts 99.9% of them are me trying to help someone out (if I can) yours on the other hand are 99.9% talking down to people, belittling them and giving them "homework". I actually think you could be a big help to a lot of people if you would just step down of your high horse and lend a hand to someone who is looking for assistance.

Actually .... I only have problems with a handful of people on this site who think they are authorities in fields they have little to no understanding of. Then when I correct those very same people, it always results in petty childish games. The fact that I care enough to endure the childish bullshiit you and others dish in my direction so people can get accurate information to use in their everyday work, not only is helping them, it is also NOT assuming they are too stupid to understand the truth ..... unlike some people here.

Bottom line .... all I see here is you trying to make excuses for your childish behavior. So I tell you what ..... you and everyone else who has a problem with me, make use of the ignore option in your user control panel.

Landscape Poet
01-27-2011, 09:21 PM
Speaking of the Fertilizer bans or Black out. U of F recently released a study Than I lost with a computer crash. But They basically said the Fertilizer Ban was causing more pollution than Properly applied Fertilizer. They pointed out that Health Turf acts as a filter.


Ric,

Dr. Laurie Trenholm from U of F mentioned this in a recent Extension class I attended. She did not say anything about repealing it but she did indicate that they have or have had research under way that was showing leaching may not have been as bad as once thought on healthy turf.

Kiril
01-27-2011, 09:24 PM
Here is the other Link I was referring to about the consequences of Fertilizer Black out. Once again it is still being Published and our California Whiz might have you believe it is not.

http://fyn.ifas.ufl.edu/pdf/SS49600.pdf

Ric, that is the exact "study" that I was referring to, the one you have referred to repeatedly, and the one the newspaper article I linked refers to and states was pulled. Now isn't that damned inconvenient. You might actually try to read the article.

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20110103/article/101031037

Titled "Unintended Consequences Associated with Certain Urban Fertilizer Ordinance," the study was published in March 2009 amid virulent debate at the Capitol -- and at the request of industry lobbyists.
.
.
.
.
But last month, after the Herald-Tribune made calls to researchers, IFAS removed the study from its website.

When asked why the institute would unpublish a study it views as scientifically sound, Payne said, "Maybe that wasn't the best strategy."

This is the first time the institute has ever unpublished a study because of criticism, Payne said.

"I'm pulling it only because the paper that's going to replace it is even stronger," Payne said, referring to a new study that is expected this year. "I am trying to show our critics that I'm listening to them."



Care to comment Ric? Can you comment on why the "study" presented no research of their own?

dishboy
01-27-2011, 09:33 PM
Puts finger in air............................







yep it's January.

rob7233
01-28-2011, 01:25 AM
Puts finger in air............................







yep it's January.

Yes, sir it is. LOL

But really getting back to the study/results. The observation was (as I recall) and I'll do my best to summarize it - was that most SA (Floratam in this case) is actually environmentally friendly in it's ability to hold and filter fertilizer leachate and runoff. Compared to Zoysia, Floratam had at least a 50% advantage.

Now all would agree, even with our summer downpours that no measurable fert leaching occurs at the recommended UF rates. Now during the summer, with all the sun and rain available, Floratam will use up it's stored and available nutrients due to it's "turbocharged" growth rate. Any FL LCO will tell you that Floratam is just about ready for x2 a week cuts from 7/15 to just about 9/1 every year. We all notice how the Floratam turns a lighter shade of green during this time thus the suggestion for an FE application vs. N.

Now again, as I recall the research result was that during this time the root structure of the affected SA(Floratam) would decrease/retract as a response to the low fertility availability. This would lead to increased stress making it more prone to the disease and insect pressure(already higher during this time of year). This poorer quality of turf would have a lessened ability to act as a filter to leachates/runoff and be far less environmentally friendly.

Additionally, it was also further suggested that because of the increase of turf damage would likely result in the increase applications of insecticides and fungicides furthering a negative impact on the environment. Lastly, it was also suggested contrary to conventional wisdom that a properly applied mid summer fert application would be more beneficial than a "black out" ban period. Granted this would be a hard sell due to fert apps not likely being done at the UF recommended rates.

All this is a big deal since the Aquifer won't be able to support the population growth and we are now looking much harder to surface water sources. Most HO and even Professionals apply fert too heavy. If some is good, more must be better... I guess this is where the BMP cert process and fert license is supposed to come in !?? Even that since this last June BMP revision, the class has become more general.

How many of you that apply fertilizer, actually measure, calculate and weigh out the product? Fast or slow release, less than 30%? Do you know how or have taken the time to calibrate your spreader? You may even know how much product to spread over what area but everyone's rate of application may be different(yeah, I know that's getting real particular). What if your particuliar spreader model is not listed on the bag? What's the right setting? Lastly, is the client willing to spend extra for the time involved to do those things and get it right? I'm thinking this is probably a real green thing to do. Maybe one of the most.

Well, I hope I summarized the research that Ric was referring to. If need be I can probably get a link to the document. It wasn't some made up crap he heard in some newspaper, so stop the bickering. However, it does get pretty funny and entertaining at times...... :drinkup:

Kiril
01-28-2011, 02:28 AM
Well, I hope I summarized the research that Ric was referring to. If need be I can probably get a link to the document. It wasn't some made up crap he heard in some newspaper, so stop the bickering. However, it does get pretty funny and entertaining at times...... :drinkup:

He already provided the link to the paper he was referring to (see post #43), and it wasn't research, despite what Ric says.

http://fyn.ifas.ufl.edu/pdf/SS49600.pdf

No data was presented and no study was conducted. It was merely a paper of supposition and opinion. Were some valid points made .... yes, but the paper does not support what Ric says it does, which is the reason I even bothered to post in this thread.

Speaking of the Fertilizer bans or Black out. U of F recently released a study Than I lost with a computer crash. But They basically said the Fertilizer Ban was causing more pollution than Properly applied Fertilizer. They pointed out that Health Turf acts as a filter.

People need to stop reading what they want to see, and read what is written.

Landscape Poet
01-28-2011, 09:00 AM
summarize it - was that most SA (Floratam in this case) is actually environmentally friendly in it's ability to hold and filter fertilizer leachate and runoff. Compared to Zoysia, Floratam had at least a 50% advantage.


Yep, that was it, thanks for refreshing my memory Rob. And you pointed out the key points that I now can remember a little more clearly. SA floratam had the ability in our soils to create the deepest roots during the peak growth periods. And if I remember correctly Palmetto had next deepest rooting and also and as a result showed a lower level of leaching? Well of the cultivators commonly available to us commercially.
And if I recall correctly, this was actually a study that was concerned with drought tolerance that brought the current research that is underway about the nutrient uptake/leaching.
The current information being given through the extension also says that if you apply the orange county guidelines for fertilizer applications - virtually all of the nutrients will be used.

I do not remember them handing out any information on this do you Rob? If you they did and you have it give me a copy and I will post for everyone to discuss here.

Kiril
01-28-2011, 09:11 AM
And if I recall correctly, this was actually a study that was concerned with drought tolerance that brought the current research that is underway about the nutrient uptake/leaching.

This study?

http://itc.tamu.edu/documents/St.%20Augustine%20-%20Steinke.pdf

Landscape Poet
01-28-2011, 10:28 AM
This study?

http://itc.tamu.edu/documents/St.%20Augustine%20-%20Steinke.pdf

Not to my knowledge Kiril, unless it is shared data, this was a U of F study. I know I have the publication about the drought tolerance somewhere I will try to find it or a link to it.

Ric
01-28-2011, 10:36 AM
Thanks Rob

I was out late last night and just logged on this morning. BTW I do have a social life outside of Lawnsite. I see You are a team player and post from memory in your own layman terms. Too bad more people don't do that instead of posting links. Many years ago I found you don't have to talk like Einstein to impress people.

Kiril
01-28-2011, 11:55 AM
Many years ago I found that people who post misleading and incorrect information on public forums do more harm than good. Nothing good comes from inaccurate information, be it expressed in "layman" terms or not. In fact, the reason why some people on this site have problems with me is because they cannot accurately reproduce what they read. They either forget what they have read, misinterpret what they have read, or intentionally misrepresent it.

Is it really too much to ask people to verify their information against credible sources before posting? What possibly good can come from people presenting opinion as fact?

You want my input on this issue again (getting really tired of repeating myself) ..... if people managed their soil instead of their plants, many of these pollution problems would go away. This means managing your soil in a fashion that minimizes potentially harmful inputs (eg. ferts and pesticides), and for locations that irrigate, managing your irrigation to maximize your soil resources with minimal losses. Proper landscape/lawn management isn't as simple as deciding which slow release fert you are going to put down this year, or which "y-not" pesticide you are going to blanket spray, and the sooner people understand that, the better off we will all be.

Ric
01-28-2011, 12:57 PM
Many years ago I found that people who post misleading and incorrect information on public forums do more harm than good. Nothing good comes from inaccurate information, be it expressed in "layman" terms or not. In fact, the reason why some people on this site have problems with me is because they cannot accurately reproduce what they read. They either forget what they have read, misinterpret what they have read, or intentionally misrepresent it.

Is it really too much to ask people to verify their information against credible sources before posting? What possibly good can come from people presenting opinion as fact?

You want my input on this issue again (getting really tired of repeating myself) ..... if people managed their soil instead of their plants, many of these pollution problems would go away. This means managing your soil in a fashion that minimizes potentially harmful inputs (eg. ferts and pesticides), and for locations that irrigate, managing your irrigation to maximize your soil resources with minimal losses. Proper landscape/lawn management isn't as simple as deciding which slow release fert you are going to put down this year, or which "y-not" pesticide you are going to blanket spray, and the sooner people understand that, the better off we will all be.

Kiril

For one last time. KNOW YOUR AUDIENCES, THIS IS NOT A UNIVERSITY DOCTORAL PAPER FOR A PhD WE ARE POSTING HERE. This is a a group of Yard Boys sharing opinions.

Since you didn't learn to play well with others as a child, Maybe you can try and learn to play well with adults.

Kiril
01-28-2011, 01:12 PM
Kiril

For one last time. KNOW YOUR AUDIENCES, THIS IS NOT A UNIVERSITY DOCTORAL PAPER FOR A PhD WE ARE POSTING HERE. This is a a group of Yard Boys sharing opinions.

Since you didn't learn to play well with others as a child, Maybe you can try and learn to play well with adults.

Always have to make a childish comment, don't you?

You know what Ric .... if people can't grasp the concepts of proper soil and water management they have no business working in this field. This is a forum for professionals, correct? Why do you keep making excuses for these professionals and assuming they are too stupid to understand anything other than information that has been dumbed down to the point of being inaccurate?

Either give them the correct information and resources so they can learn how to do it right, or don't say anything at all. Why you (or anyone else) feels the need to reproduce what has been written a thousand times over by credible sources in "laymen terms" (many times inaccurately) is beyond me. Provide the resources for people to learn straight from the horses mouth, and let them decide how to use the information.

Ric
01-28-2011, 01:28 PM
Always have to make a childish comment, don't you?

You know what Ric .... if people can't grasp the concepts of proper soil and water management they have no business working in this field. This is a forum for professionals, correct? Why do you keep making excuses for these professionals and assuming they are too stupid to understand anything other than information that has been dumbed down to the point of being inaccurate?

Either give them the correct information and resources so they can learn how to do it right, or don't say anything at all. Why you (or anyone else) feels the need to reproduce what has been written a thousand times over by credible sources in "laymen terms" (many times inaccurately) is beyond me. Provide the resources for people to learn straight from the horses mouth, and let them decide how to use the information.

Kiril


One more time you are missing the point. It is not WHAT you do But HOW you do it.

We are all trying to do proper soil management but Proper Soil Management doesn't have to have a University degree attached to each grain of sand to be good.

If I say Nitrogen causes Cell elongation and that is what makes grass grow, Do I need to supply a university link as a credible source??????? Oh sure you can find multiply essay on grass growing on the Internet that explains the total Metabolism of turf. BUT IS EVERY THING ON THE INTERNET CORRECT. Go into a University office shared by two PhDs and ask One question. You will get a minimum of 3 answers. Each will have their answer and together they might offer a third answer if not 4th. We have all found Misinformation on University websites at one time or an other.

KIRIL WE ARE TALKING COMMON SENSE HERE. Something I strongly suggest you should investigate

Kiril
01-28-2011, 02:11 PM
Here we go again .... your typical common sense bull. Let me tell you something about common sense Ric. Common sense says don't use plants that are inappropriate for your soils and climate. Common sense says manage the natural resources you have in a fashion that limits the amount of potentially harmful inputs. Common sense says use sustainable resources in your management programs. Common sense says to fertilize based on determined need, not some generic industry recommendation. Common sense says to arm yourself with as much knowledge as you can so you can make the best informed decision possible. Common sense says don't get your information from people who think you are too stupid to understand the topic in detail. These are some of the common sense things that responsible people do.

Now lets talk about your University comments. I am not the one here who only considers publications that agree with your "team" philosophy as being valid ... this thread being case in point. Someone who is truly objective will look at all the information, research and data that is available in order to make the best informed decision based on ALL current knowledge .... not just the research or data that fits your agenda or "team" philosophy.

FYI .... while you might find some PhD's will disagree on certain subjects or issues, especially those that are open to interpretation, you will find way more subjects they agree on. There is hordes of information available that is WELL established science, and your suggestion to the contrary is nothing short of absurd.

starry night
01-28-2011, 02:15 PM
Kiril


One more time you are missing the point. It is not WHAT you do But HOW you do it. ........If I say Nitrogen causes Cell elongation and that is what makes grass grow, Do I need to supply a university link as a credible source???????

Maybe YOU are missing Kiril's point. Let me say that I understand more about language than I know about soil biology.

Without debating the accuracy of your statement "If I say Nitrogen.....etc."
There is some potentially tricky wording. "Causes" in your sentence, for instance, implies that nitrogen is the only possible cause and no other factor comes into play.
Furthermore "cell elongation" is "that" which makes grass grow also suggests there is nothing else which makes it grow. The word "grow" could even be interpreted in different ways.

So I think Kiril is just looking for accuracy in the way one would put scientific information into laymen's terms. Some people are way too sloppy in their use of words so he prefers the carefully worded studies.
That's how I view what he has said. (in many threads)

Kiril
01-28-2011, 02:23 PM
Without debating the accuracy of your statement "If I say Nitrogen.....etc."
There is some potentially tricky wording. "Causes" in your sentence, for instance, implies that nitrogen is the only possible cause and no other factor comes into play.
Furthermore "cell elongation" is "that" which makes grass grow also suggests there is nothing else which makes it grow. The word "grow" could even be interpreted in different ways.

Funny, I was going to comment on that, even started to write a response pointing out the problems with the statement, but decided it wasn't worth the certain bullshiit that would have followed as a result. :laugh: :dizzy:

Ric
01-28-2011, 05:35 PM
Kiril

YOU WIN, You have managed to drag me down to a fools level and beat me with experience. As educated as you are, Life must be tougher for you than the average guy.

dirtandhoops

You win also. However I am not sure the average yard boy or the customer really cares if Nitrogen is the only element used in Growth. What they care about is the fact is Scotts 32-2-3 makes their grass turn green. BTW they don't care that Scotts 32-2-3 at 4 time the price of 46-0-0 isn't much better than the rip off, Because if it is Scotts is got to good.

Keith
01-28-2011, 09:28 PM
Ric, When I was down there I had a great blend. Sunniland (who I think is the largest blender of Milorganite) blended a sweet blend. It was a 2-0-18 with like 1500 lbs Milorganite and 250 Sulpo Mag and 250 of Murate of Potash, or something like that, and the great part it was like $550/ton. I loved it

Today they have a 7-0-20, 3.75% iron and other minors, like you are describing.

BShaffer
01-29-2011, 02:01 AM
keith, thats a nice blend, couple times a year, thats money.

Buck_wheat
01-30-2011, 10:23 AM
Well now, I see two ego maniacs with inferiority complexes engaged in a verbal duel... both of them extremely knowledgeable.

I understand both perspectives; I believe the root problem is that the preponderance of "yard boys" are functionally illiterate. When one has failed at everything, including selling real estate, you go to Florida with an f-ed up 150, a POS trailer and some used crap on the back and cut grass below cost.

By the same token, many applicators send out a "tech" who doesn't have a clue what he is treating or the product he is treating it with.

The nature of the green industry is changing rapidly, in a small way we can see what's coming in that the state is beginning to mandate education and certification in "Best Management Practices" in addition to limited application licensing. The bar will be set increasingly higher in order to weed :) out the idiots that mow, blow, go; indiscriminately apply fertilizer and pesticides and after scalping the chit out of the lawn advise the client to add more water and blame the subsequent insect and pathogen infestations on Ric.

Proper education, management and cooperation is key... the derogatory statements, demeaning name calling and other sophomoric behavior will not bring about enlightenment. Other than myself, I wonder how many people actually read these post and obtained some beneficial information?

Probably a reason why I sit on the side lines most of the time reading the same BS... BUT, you got to go through a lot of oysters to find a pearl.

Patriot Services
01-30-2011, 10:33 AM
Buck wheat, are you referring to a certain individual with the F150 or just the majority that fall into that demographic?
Posted via Mobile Device

rob7233
01-30-2011, 11:08 AM
The nature of the green industry is changing rapidly, in a small way we can see what's coming in that the state is beginning to mandate education and certification in "Best Management Practices" in addition to limited application licensing.

Yes, I agree. It is better to educate than to mandate and regulate .... and the clients are beginning to become more knowledgeable and demanding.

However, the flip side to that are the ones that seem to believe they're going to get consistently top service for beer prices.

Buck_wheat
01-31-2011, 07:30 AM
Buck wheat, are you referring to a certain individual with the F150 or just the majority that fall into that demographic?
Posted via Mobile Device

It's just politically incorrect profiling... could be any POS means of transport.

Buck_wheat
01-31-2011, 07:36 AM
The nature of the green industry is changing rapidly, in a small way we can see what's coming in that the state is beginning to mandate education and certification in "Best Management Practices" in addition to limited application licensing.

Yes, I agree. It is better to educate than to mandate and regulate .... and the clients are beginning to become more knowledgeable and demanding.

However, the flip side to that are the ones that seem to believe they're going to get consistently top service for beer prices.

Doesn't everybody? Hence the relative (though shorter term) sucess of the hackers. You still have to make enough money to pay for the beer.

In time & with regulation increasing as well as new licensing requirements, the Keystone Lite crowd will have to move on since they neither have the intelect or the financial resources to maintain a compliant operation.

Ric
01-31-2011, 10:51 AM
The nature of the green industry is changing rapidly, in a small way we can see what's coming in that the state is beginning to mandate education and certification in "Best Management Practices" in addition to limited application licensing.

Yes, I agree. It is better to educate than to mandate and regulate .... and the clients are beginning to become more knowledgeable and demanding.

However, the flip side to that are the ones that seem to believe they're going to get consistently top service for beer prices.

If we must mandate, then let those laws be perceived as Fair and Righteous. All the laws in the world are not good unless the majority of people agree to abide by them. In the case of the following link to a study presently before our State Legislation, I feel this is a very workable compromise. BTW it was written by educated people from all areas of concern.

http://consensus.fsu.edu/Fertilizer-...rce/index.html

IMHO the Black Out Bans will never work because the majority of people just won't believe it is a fair law. My Biggest problem with Tree Hugger is not that I believe organics don't work. I use Organics in both L&O and Structural Pest control successfully. My big problem with Tree Huggers is their lack of willingness to compromise and use both synthetic and organic depending on the job at hand. I value the best from both worlds.

BTW we could cut out all products both Organic and Synthetic from Horticulture and still not stop the pollution problem. It is not just Agriculture but also Industry that is polluting our environment.

South Florida Lawns
01-31-2011, 04:59 PM
Ya know whats really funny is; and I just read this off the USF Polytechnic site is that Florida is presently providing somewheres around 75 percent of the nationís supply of phosphate fertilizer and about 25 percent of the world supply.

Who remembers all the contaminated waters and pollution these processing plants produced a few years back?

rob7233
01-31-2011, 06:29 PM
Yes, we are the fourth largest producer of phosphorus in the world. We sit on top of the deposit. As I understand it, residential contribution is just a drop in the bucket compared to commercial industry for water use and waste, along with phosphorus pollution.

Then we have the sugar industry doing us the favor in the reclaiming the Everglades (a misnomer) in dumping partially decomposed (still Hot) compost from our landfills into the Everglades in order to create more planting acreage.

Yeah, they are reclaiming it all right. When did we initiate the phospate ban in laundry detergent? Does anyone remember?

Landscape Poet
01-31-2011, 07:15 PM
If we must mandate, then let those laws be perceived as Fair and Righteous. All the laws in the world are not good unless the majority of people agree to abide by them. In the case of the following link to a study presently before our State Legislation, I feel this is a very workable compromise. BTW it was written by educated people from all areas of concern.

http://consensus.fsu.edu/Fertilizer-...rce/index.html

IMHO the Black Out Bans will never work because the majority of people just won't believe it is a fair law. My Biggest problem with Tree Hugger is not that I believe organics don't work. I use Organics in both L&O and Structural Pest control successfully. My big problem with Tree Huggers is their lack of willingness to compromise and use both synthetic and organic depending on the job at hand. I value the best from both worlds.

BTW we could cut out all products both Organic and Synthetic from Horticulture and still not stop the pollution problem. It is not just Agriculture but also Industry that is polluting our environment.

Ric, Not sure if it is just me and my internet connection, but the link you provided is not working.

Ric
01-31-2011, 08:12 PM
Ric, Not sure if it is just me and my internet connection, but the link you provided is not working.

Try this link

http://consensus.fsu.edu/Fertilizer-Task-Force/index.html