PDA

View Full Version : Sand or Muck


Landscape Poet
01-29-2011, 11:34 AM
This is topic of debate that myself and another LCO have had numerous times in the past few months. So what are your preferences when installing sod, sand or much base? If you would please include why you prefer one over the other.

Ric
01-29-2011, 11:56 AM
Muck comes from the center of the state in my case and cost move to haul the distances. Strike one for Muck

Sand has no real chemical Holding power. Strike one for sand

Sand has no WATER holding Power. Strike Two for sand.

Sand falls a part as you handle It. Strike Three for sand and it's out.

Muck laid on our sand establishes quicker because of the Water & Chemical holding power. The Old theory that the roots will not leave the muck and grow deeper is false on sand because the Muck SOM does leach into the sand carrying the roots with it. However Muck roots might not establish as deep as quick as sand sod. Sand root will follow water and chemicals down immediately because the sand can not hold the Water & Chemicals.

I want Muck Sod and feel it is the better of the two.

Patriot Services
01-29-2011, 03:34 PM
I'll take my sod with the darkest, heaviest muck base I can. It will probably be sitting on 99.99% sand anyways. More work to handle but well worth it.
Posted via Mobile Device

Keith
01-29-2011, 04:25 PM
I'll take muck most of the time. It's usually way lighter, and easier to handle. I only like sand in part-sun areas that have a tendency to stay damp.

rob7233
01-30-2011, 12:00 AM
Michael,

You know my position. I'd rather handle muck based. Now muck based is a man made blend made to be lighter in order to transport larger loads for less.
Years ago, we got muck based from Duda which had been grow in the previous celery fields locations(the stuff was black gold)!

Ric did a nice job summing up the pros and cons. Are you convinced yet ??!!
In your poll, 75% of the viewers prefer muck over sand based...:hammerhead:

Landscape Poet
01-30-2011, 02:06 PM
I agree ric did a good job summing up the pros and cons. Sand is usually the cheapest in OUR location - and usually - well at least when Sod King is in operation has some the best looking sod on a consistant basis.
Another point is that while ric points out that the muck base does better with chemical and water retention which I am sure helps lower his cost - not all clients lawns are chemically treated programs. It has been my experience that sand adapts quicker when going on a location which is sandy to start with. It also seems to experience less fungus issue during the hot humid part of the season most ho want their install done.I am thinking this is the customer not paying attention to the needs of the sod but rather just waering the heck out if and the sand base obviously retains less of the water applied. I know you have had a recent experience with this with the client who overwatered and craeted the weed issue.
As ric pointed out there are several key points that great about muck and I am not opposed to it by any means, and it does handle better for sure as well as adding OM to our soil which is needed.
I will see how the relationship with the company that my pco suggested to us on the last job develops. It was far superior to that of the other place we used for those jobs
Posted via Mobile Device

Ric
01-30-2011, 02:51 PM
I agree ric did a good job summing up the pros and cons. Sand is usually the cheapest in OUR location - and usually - well at least when Sod King is in operation has some the best looking sod on a consistant basis.
Another point is that while ric points out that the muck base does better with chemical and water retention which I am sure helps lower his cost - not all clients lawns are chemically treated programs. It has been my experience that sand adapts quicker when going on a location which is sandy to start with. It also seems to experience less fungus issue during the hot humid part of the season most ho want their install done.I am thinking this is the customer not paying attention to the needs of the sod but rather just waering the heck out if and the sand base obviously retains less of the water applied. I know you have had a recent experience with this with the client who overwatered and craeted the weed issue.
As ric pointed out there are several key points that great about muck and I am not opposed to it by any means, and it does handle better for sure as well as adding OM to our soil which is needed.
I will see how the relationship with the company that my pco suggested to us on the last job develops. It was far superior to that of the other place we used for those jobs
Posted via Mobile Device

Michael

IMHO Fungus issues on sod have more to do with how wet it was when cut and how long it stays on the pallet. I have seen more fungus on Sand than on Muck Sod. But only because people don't respect sand like they do Muck.

Back when I had the big show, I would bring left over Sod back to my nursery and spread it out on Black Ground cloth. I would then either sell it in pieces or use it for other jobs. The shelve life of sod spread on Black Ground Cloth is well over a month as long as you keep it watered. I think the reason more people don't try and save sod is they don't have the space or the desire at the end of the day to throw more sod before going home. I didn't put two kid through college and one through Medical school throwing money away. BTW Many of the take out plants from re-landscapes were a great money maker. 3 gallon material I could buy for $ 3.75 but Mature plants of size sell for big bucks.

Landscape Poet
01-30-2011, 04:49 PM
Michael

IMHO Fungus issues on sod have more to do with how wet it was when cut and how long it stays on the pallet. I have seen more fungus on Sand than on Muck Sod. But only because people don't respect sand like they do Muck. Thanks for your insight. There are periods where it does not seem to matter if you are looking at sand or muck...they will both appear to have fungus on them. I am leaning more towards muck but as I stated above, the supplier I currently have the best working relationship with as well as consistently has the best looking sod offers only sand based. His cultivator selection is another reason that I might look elsewhere as he only offers Floratam - which I really do feel is best for most of my jobs - but it is a hassle to go change up suppliers on jobs where I need a shade tolerant cultivator too.

[QUOTE=Ric;3875261Back when I had the big show, .[/QUOTE] Did you use to have a nursery Ric, is that what you are referring to here?

Ric
01-30-2011, 08:43 PM
Did you use to have a nursery Ric, is that what you are referring to here?


Michael

Just this last Wednesday I took Fl-landscape to see my old neighbor and Mechanic who lived next door to my nursery. Fl landscape needed some work done and my old neighbor is a jam up mechanic who literal has a machine Shop in his Garage. If he can't buy a part he makes it. There is a nursery on the same spot but the road between our two properties is in dis-repair after 6 1/2 years. The irrigation stand pipes on my buddy's property were still there also in great dis repair. Yes space is important and my mechanic buddy let me use about two acres of his property.

I had a Wholesale nursery with 600 ft of road frontage and was about to open it retail when Hurricane Charlie decided to do a re-landscape. I lost my Butt because Crop insurance is not an affordable opposition. What I will tell you is Landscape install is the Highest Margin in the green industry. Having a PLANT HOLDING YARD is a must to do install work. I will also tell you I didn't have the talent to do WOW Factor Landscape Designs which is what it takes to be a successful installer. But Both my children had that talent. I had only to correct their designs for agronomics making sure not to mix a full oasis Plant with a drought tolerant plant etc etc. I was 64 years old when I watched Hurricane Charlie blow away a life time of work. Since my children were not interested in the green industry instead of rebuilding I sold what was left of my company to my Employees.

Landscape Poet
01-30-2011, 08:56 PM
Michael

Just this last Wednesday I took Fl-landscape to see my old neighbor and Mechanic who lived next door to my nursery. Fl landscape needed some work done and my old neighbor is a jam up mechanic who literal has a machine Shop in his Garage. If he can't buy a part he makes it. There is a nursery on the same spot but the road between our two properties is in dis-repair after 6 1/2 years. The irrigation stand pipes on my buddy's property were still there also in great dis repair. Yes space is important and my mechanic buddy let me use about two acres of his property.

I had a Wholesale nursery with 600 ft of road frontage and was about to open it retail when Hurricane Charlie decided to do a re-landscape. I lost my Butt because Crop insurance is not an affordable opposition. What I will tell you is Landscape install is the Highest Margin in the green industry. Having a PLANT HOLDING YARD is a must to do install work. I will also tell you I didn't have the talent to do WOW Factor Landscape Designs which is what it takes to be a successful installer. But Both my children had that talent. I had only to correct their designs for agronomics making sure not to mix a full oasis Plant with a drought tolerant plant etc etc. I was 64 years old when I watched Hurricane Charlie blow away a life time of work. Since my children were not interested in the green industry instead of rebuilding I sold what was left of my company to my Employees.

I am sorry to hear about you experiencing this Ric. I know that part of the business can be a very rewarding one. It is apparent that you can make a fortune from it when you go to a nursery like the one that is close to my house and they sell for 50 to 100% more than the wholesalers do. And there are guys around here that will buy there, install and still turn a killing.

There are many nurseries around here that you can tell the economy has did a number on, so maybe Charlie was a blessing in disguise, as you are fortunate to have a successful operation now.

Ric
01-30-2011, 09:22 PM
I am sorry to hear about you experiencing this Ric. I know that part of the business can be a very rewarding one. It is apparent that you can make a fortune from it when you go to a nursery like the one that is close to my house and they sell for 50 to 100% more than the wholesalers do. And there are guys around here that will buy there, install and still turn a killing.

There are many nurseries around here that you can tell the economy has did a number on, so maybe Charlie was a blessing in disguise, as you are fortunate to have a successful operation now.

I am not sad Michael

In fact I am glad now because I only have me to worry about and not 20 people. after the Hurricane property soared and I sold at the Top just before the bust. Today I look at all the debunk nurseries and think I got out easy. For two years I did nothing until my investments went sour. I down sized my living arrangement and resat for the L&O and GHP certs and started part time to supplement my income. Now my investment seem to be doing better and I am planning on getting out of L&O and doing only GHP.

Landscape Poet
01-30-2011, 09:44 PM
I am not sad Michael

In fact I am glad now because I only have me to worry about and not 20 people. after the Hurricane property soared and I sold at the Top just before the bust. Today I look at all the debunk nurseries and think I got out easy. For two years I did nothing until my investments went sour. I down sized my living arrangement and resat for the L&O and GHP certs and started part time to supplement my income. Now my investment seem to be doing better and I am planning on getting out of L&O and doing only GHP.

GHP huh. I had to do a google search to figure out what you were talking about. So would that be considered termite protection too or is that something you can already do with the L & O? I know it must be a high margin treatment because when I looked into doing termidor around my house vs the cost of having a company do it I know there appeared to be a nice margin there.

Is that market as big down here? It seems like I know lots of people that use someone for their lawn - but only a few that have the inside of their property done. The PCO that I work with only has to enter the property once a year if they are doing the pest control on the outside unless there is a issue- so I am assuming the margin is nice.

The biggest issue I see with doing the inside of peoples house is ....well you have to go inside there house....and FL has a unusual group of people.

Ric
01-30-2011, 10:06 PM
GHP huh. I had to do a google search to figure out what you were talking about. So would that be considered termite protection too or is that something you can already do with the L & O? I know it must be a high margin treatment because when I looked into doing termidor around my house vs the cost of having a company do it I know there appeared to be a nice margin there.

Is that market as big down here? It seems like I know lots of people that use someone for their lawn - but only a few that have the inside of their property done. The PCO that I work with only has to enter the property once a year if they are doing the pest control on the outside unless there is a issue- so I am assuming the margin is nice.

The biggest issue I see with doing the inside of peoples house is ....well you have to go inside there house....and FL has a unusual group of people.

Mikey

General Household Pest and no Termite and Fumigation are two other separate certification I had at one time. Termite Insurance is sky high and now with little of no construction for pre-treats not worth paying the Insurance on.

L&O as I have explain many times before is for PESTS OF PLANTS ONLY. Fleas, Ticks, Ants, Roaches, Bees, and the Biggie right now BED BUGS are pests of animals not plants and are covered under the GHP License. Many People Call this Structural Pest control but Florida Calls it GHP.

GHP has a Chemical cost of about 3 to 4 % of the normal cost to the customer. However GHP accounts might be harder to get than L&O. Also missed appointment because a customer is not home becomes a problem. However in my area we are about 75 % retirees who are home all the time.

The smallest Termidor comes in a 20 oz bottle. It takes 0.8 oz to cover 160 lineal Ft of Perimeter. That works out to about $ 3.50 to give 6 months perimeter control on the average house I treat. I charge $ 300 a year for GHP on the average home. In most cases Termidor twice a year is all that is needed.