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Barefoot James
02-03-2011, 10:03 PM
I found this information to be VERY interesting - enjoy! :cool2:

In addition to our Endo Ecto blend that's been very popular in landscape construction and hydroseeded, starting on January 1st, Soil Secrets is releasing a new concentrated Glomus product called Endo Maxima®. This new product will replace Endo 900® which contains 900,000 spores per pound and will have a concentrated spore count that’s unmatched in the industry with 1,450,000 spores per pound. Not propagules per pound but spores per pound. Most mycorrhizal products promote propagules per pound but that includes tissues that were not screened or cleaned out of the product that theoretically could become living mycorrhizal tissues. Spores on the other hand are most likely to provide a germination viability that propagules cannot match. Endo 900 is already specified by many State DOT’s and Mine Reclamation Agency’s, and Endo Maxima has many professionals very excited as well. It’s a product that can be implemented into hydroseeding and is beneficial for establishing turf and herbaceous plants used in erosion control. Contact Soil Secrets for more information - www.soilsecrets.com

ICT Bill
02-04-2011, 12:02 PM
They buy it from Myke out of Canada, they are produced in vitro instead of by host plant
there is some controversy on their viability in soil

Barefoot James
02-04-2011, 01:21 PM
Soil Secrets LLC in New Mexico is a commercial producer and supplier of both Endo and Ecto type mycorrhizal products. For turf you need an Endo and one species is all you need, as Endo's are generalists. Our turf product is called Endo-900 because it contains 900,000 propagules per pound of Glomus intraradices, while most other products will be at 60,000 or less. Our material is screened and prepared in an ISO 9001 compliant lab, part of a Department of Energy facility in New Mexico.

Bill maybe you should be talking to Michael and add this to your stuff.:waving:
You two would get along great!

JoJo1990
02-04-2011, 01:31 PM
I thought from the video they said they grow their own 'product' from his other business? Interesting.

Tim Wilson
02-04-2011, 07:49 PM
Just a reminder that for those with space and so inclined, growing your own spores is rather simple.

Barefoot James
02-04-2011, 09:14 PM
How do you harvest them?? You would need something to innoculate the (chicken - egg) bahia grass. I guess you could just take all the dirt from around the roots and use that but most of the myco spores would be in the roots? Maybe chop up the roots, dirt every thing and use that??
Why not just buy the pure spores by the pound. I think you can get the stuff for about $30 a pound for 1.5 million spores?? It would cost you more than that in time effort. Your thoughts Tim??

Tim Wilson
02-05-2011, 09:41 AM
I'm not saying it is for everybody but it does, apparently, have advantages. Yes, you use grass in large containers or...? When the grass goes dormant the spores are produced amongst the roots. Yes you chop up the roots dirt n all. You need to originally inoculate, either with purchased or local mycorrhizal. I believe advantages are acclimatization, denser, higher sprouting rate(?). I posted an article on the forum somewhere. According to the article it is waaay cheaper than buying. Is it $30 for a pound of pure spores? I doubt that. I suppose gauging whether it is worth doing, besides interest, would be based on the density.

Barefoot James
02-05-2011, 10:28 AM
Tim - yes you did
Here is a link to that article - http://www.extension.org/article/18627
Or google it - On-farm Production and Utilization of AM Fungus Inoculum - the above is one of many versions. The actual one you posted had better pics but I can't find it??:cry:
But like you said you have start with some mycorrhizae 0R know how to get some from your property. I would imagine if you started with some known dirt from your own property and it has never had herbs/pests sprayed you would have plenty of naturally indigenous mycorrhizae and then you totally inoculate that soil with lots more known spores grow that plant out - have it go dormant - harvest the dirt/roots and spread on the crop fields or lawn that needs more mycorrhizae you could achieve good results? That's one way especially if you want to be totally sustainable, have the space, the time, the know how and/or have really large areas - like farms. But for lawn care folks like me getting some pure spores not suspended in dirt or clay or other mediums is pretty darn appealing. I have been getting propagules from mycorrhizae.com for the past several years - 'the best mycorrhizae' they offer but the propagule count is only 130,000 per pound - this new stuff is 1.5 Million spores not propagules (which I found out can actually be only pieces of a spore??) per pound.

BTW articles I have read and information I have gleaned from talking with the pros say you need a 50 spore count per sq ft of turf to get fast growing/going results. So 130,000 propagule count would get you about 2600 sq ft of coverage. 1,450,000 would get you 29,000 sq ft of coverage. Mycorrhizae has proven over and over in many, many tests to get new grass up and mowable much, much faster and has huge drought protection qualities. But the flip side is herbs/pests do harm mycorrhizae. So regular inoculations are good for your properties - if you are using any herbs/pests.

So there you have it folks two different ways to get you where you need to go ... and a new source of the highest concentration of spores I have EVER heard of. Just spreading the good news (I mean mycorrhizae:laugh:)......

tallrick
02-05-2011, 03:30 PM
I have used mycorrhizal fungi for some time on pine trees to help them survive. I was not aware that they could help turfgrass. The coralroot orchids around here cannot survive without the fungi so they are a good indication of the fungus being present. My opinion is that using pesticides for turfgrass is a waste of resources. I have noticed that their use seems to destroy the mycorrhizal fungi which causes slash pines to yellow and die with ips beetles. Is there a comprehensive list of different species of fungi and their hosts?

Barefoot James
02-05-2011, 04:08 PM
ICT Bill wrote this about Mycorrhizae-
There are some plants that are non mycorrhizal for instance:
Beet, Orchid, Protea, Carnation, Rush, Sedge, Heath, Rhododendron, Azalea

There are some plants like the wild mustard on the east coast that actually kills mycorrhizae fungi as it encroaches into areas. The wild mustard has become a true invasive here in the mid atlantic. The mustard plant ******s or kills the plants by poisoning the fungi and breaking the symbiotic bond with the existing plant in the area making it much easier for the mustard plant to take over an entire forests

The myco you have used on the pine was and ecto variety this type of myco has associations with only 5% to 7% of the plant kindom. The endo type has associations with 90% and is the type in turf grass.

Mycorrhizae.com has a chart that shows what goes with what but that link on the site is down right now :cry:. So rather than post a bad link ....
I'm sure you could google this and find your answer but the two types are -
endo mycorrhizae - works with most plants and most common
ecto mycorrhizae - mainly evergreens

Tim Wilson
02-05-2011, 06:16 PM
James, if I live long enough I'm hoping to have live propagules to sell within a couple years. James is correct that most trees form mycorrhizal relationships with ectomyc type fungi but as mentioned in another thread a while ago I'm hoping to find through some hands on research the mycorrhizal relationship with 'dark' septate endophytes which 'I think' can be grown in compost tea or other cultures. I've got the roof and three walls and part of the ceiling finished in my new lab.

Barefoot James
02-05-2011, 09:03 PM
James, if I live long enough.
What does this mean - Dude you are 60. That's the new 30 plus you got that Canadian FREE health care. I would think you have lots of myco sales left in ya.
On a brighter note - Tim's got a new lab in the works and he's gonna be selling myco - how cool is that.:cool2::cool2::cool2:

ICT Bill
02-05-2011, 09:18 PM
Here is an interesting synopsis, 365 pages worth
http://www.krishibid.com/ebook/Mycorrhizae%20-%20Sustainable%20Agriculture%20and%20Forestry%20(Springer,%202008).pdf

Pages 65, 66 and 67 show which good guys transport which nutrients, not all of them but the ones they investigated

tallrick
02-08-2011, 01:51 PM
If the fungi associated with pine and oak trees are ecto, I would think that they would form things like truffles to allow propigation?

Barefoot James
02-08-2011, 04:57 PM
I would love, love, love to be able to grow truffles. High end ones like they pay top dollar for in the resturants. Anyone know about this stuff and can share. If mycorrhizae could help then that would be even better - I here that truffles pretty much only grow in the wild - some of those exotic ones cost $300 and once. wild:dizzy::dizzy:

Tim Wilson
02-09-2011, 09:31 AM
James,

Truffles are ectomycorrhizae, as Tallrick mentioned. I do know of a guy selling pine which are infected with a truffle species but I don't know how successful the operation has been.

soilsecrets
01-14-2012, 06:10 PM
ITC Bill and Barefoot James, Dr. Jenson here with the production nursery of Soil Secrets and Soil Secrets Worldwide. The nursery is where we grow the plants to produce our mycorrhizal products. It's true that Soil Secrets does use Premier Bio Tech (the manufacture of MYKE) as one of its sources of mycorrhizal spores. It's a common practice for the better companies that produce mycorrhizal products to collaborate in the supply of material, particularly if you are growing as fast as we are. However, I'm proud to say that Premier is one of the few company's that can meet our standard of mycorrhizal spore concentration, with evidence of purity and taxonomy, using enumeration studies performed by an ISO certified lab. We are often contacted by companies wanting to provide product as a backup to our own inventory and our reply is, if they can show us that same evidence using a third party ISO certified lab and the price works, we could possibly use them as a production source. There's nothing wrong with that.

Smallaxe
01-14-2012, 09:07 PM
The application of soluble phosphorus decreased root colonization
(Abbott and Robson, 1984) with occasional reports of increases
(Gryndler et al., 1990). Similarly, contradictory results have also been reported
with nitrogen fertilizer (Baltruschat and Dehne, 1988; Gryndler et al.,
1990; Liu et al., 2000).

An interesting point from Bill's url... :)

soilsecrets
01-14-2012, 09:50 PM
There are many contraindications to the mutualistic relationship that this beneficial fungus has with plants, including the use of acid based phosphorus fertilizers. This explains why almost without exception you will find mycorrhizal plants missing from the equation in both urban horticulture and in farming. To return to a true biological soil management practice, we must also learn how to not over use fertilizers and which fertilizers to never use again. The other problem with acid based phosphorus is that it complexes iron in the soil, creating iron phosphate, a substance that will not easily oxidize, therefore its not soluble or useable by plants. This results in the landscape also being deprived of iron, one out of many problems caused by the conventional use of acid based fertilizers. In agriculture worldwide, its caused a tremendous problem.

Smallaxe
01-15-2012, 10:30 AM
There are many contraindications to the mutualistic relationship that this beneficial fungus has with plants, including the use of acid based phosphorus fertilizers. This explains why almost without exception you will find mycorrhizal plants missing from the equation in both urban horticulture and in farming. To return to a true biological soil management practice, we must also learn how to not over use fertilizers and which fertilizers to never use again. The other problem with acid based phosphorus is that it complexes iron in the soil, creating iron phosphate, a substance that will not easily oxidize, therefore its not soluble or useable by plants. This results in the landscape also being deprived of iron, one out of many problems caused by the conventional use of acid based fertilizers. In agriculture worldwide, its caused a tremendous problem.

I imagine there are factors that are not being discussed involving the 'contradictions' that would give us a deeper understanding... If 'acid based P fert' is the missing element in the article that Bill posted, do we have another updated article that helps us understand what really happens with P fert?
Is there a P fert that can be used as a Starter Fert that wouldn't discourage/inactivate AMF?
Are all synferts, acid based?

Smallaxe
01-15-2012, 12:11 PM
Here is an interesting synopsis, 365 pages worth
http://www.krishibid.com/ebook/Mycorrhizae%20-%20Sustainable%20Agriculture%20and%20Forestry%20(Springer,%202008).pdf

Pages 65, 66 and 67 show which good guys transport which nutrients, not all of them but the ones they investigated

"... Plant diseases can be controlled by manipulation of indigenous
microbes or by introducing antagonists to reduce the disease-producing propagules
(Linderman, 1992). AM fungi and their associated interactions with
plants reduce the damage caused by plant pathogens (Harrier and Watson,
2004). These interactions have been documented for many plant species
(Tables 1 and 2)" ...

OK, we accept that Plant diseases can be controlled, good point...

However, what environmental strategies and cultural practices would mean a more healthy AMF and a more dormant pathogen??

If we don't understand the answer to that question, we may very well be adding spores to our lawns , the same way a fool would dumb worms in the desert sand to live, grow and multiply...

An impossible question to get an answer on... :)

soilsecrets
01-15-2012, 12:46 PM
"However, what environmental strategies and cultural practices would mean a more healthy AMF and a more dormant pathogen??"

Excellent questions. Since there are many variables, particularly when dealing with soil parent rock and chemistry of the soil, its difficult to prescribe a set in stone protocol. This is why we endorse the idea of our clients being knowledgeable about how to read a soil analysis report. It's also important to understand that even the best soil analysis will not disclose all the elements of nutrition that a soil contains as no soil test separation technique mimics how plants get those elements out of the soil, particularly how Mycorrhizae do it. Keep in mind that an acre of soil, 1 foot deep contains over 4 million pounds of minerals, even in the depleted acid soils of the Northeastern States, or the tropical rain forest soils. What's depleted are the mineral elements that we' ed hope would be in the soil water solution or chelated onto the Cation Exchange Capacity of the soil. The easy to access nutrients! However the minerals that are still part of the chemical matrix of the soil, cemented in if you will, cannot easily be sequestered by a plant without the aid of the mycorrhizal relationship. Here's where the issue of adding supplemental fertilizer causes a snag or a crutch in some cases. There's no doubt that we are all on a learning curve when it comes to using inoculations of mycorrhizal spores, followed by managing the landscape so it can maintain the terrestrial biosphere of mutualism.

Barefoot James
01-15-2012, 07:40 PM
Welcome to LawnSite Dr. Jensen. When did you start working with Dr. Melendrez are you a New Mexican too? Dr. MM is on the cutting edge and moving our industry to new heights - more folks need to listen to him.
Check these out -
Soil Secrets 1 – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8MiDpAtcFg&feature=related

Soil Secrets 2 – Understanding Humus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adhssib1ggE&feature=related

Soil Secrets 3 – On Rhizobia and Mycorrhiza http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UusQ4i4FNu0&feature=related

Soil Secrets 4 – on mycorrhizae http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENP2dLd9JqI&feature=related

Barefoot James
01-15-2012, 07:41 PM
Soil 1 the terrastrial biosphere http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy60n-xf3F8&feature=related

Soil 2 the genesis of humus - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adhssib1ggE&feature=related

Soil 3 Trees…. From the soil up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0OuqBeCqNM&feature=related

Soil 4 on Humus - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0M6dbOoewc&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

:cool2:

phasthound
01-15-2012, 11:27 PM
James,

Thanks for posting those links. :)

Smallaxe
01-16-2012, 10:50 AM
"However, what environmental strategies and cultural practices would mean a more healthy AMF and a more dormant pathogen??"

Excellent questions. Since there are many variables, particularly when dealing with soil parent rock and chemistry of the soil, its difficult to prescribe a set in stone protocol. This is why we endorse the idea of our clients being knowledgeable about how to read a soil analysis report. It's also important to understand that even the best soil analysis will not disclose all the elements of nutrition that a soil contains as no soil test separation technique mimics how plants get those elements out of the soil, particularly how Mycorrhizae do it. Keep in mind that an acre of soil, 1 foot deep contains over 4 million pounds of minerals, even in the depleted acid soils of the Northeastern States, or the tropical rain forest soils. What's depleted are the mineral elements that we' ed hope would be in the soil water solution or chelated onto the Cation Exchange Capacity of the soil. The easy to access nutrients! However the minerals that are still part of the chemical matrix of the soil, cemented in if you will, cannot easily be sequestered by a plant without the aid of the mycorrhizal relationship. Here's where the issue of adding supplemental fertilizer causes a snag or a crutch in some cases. There's no doubt that we are all on a learning curve when it comes to using inoculations of mycorrhizal spores, followed by managing the landscape so it can maintain the terrestrial biosphere of mutualism.

The question is: What environments can we create that will be helpful for the proliferation of AMF, i.e. watering, ammendment types, etc.?
In other words:
What does AMF thrive in as compared to struggle in, with regards to certain environments?

soilsecrets
01-16-2012, 05:43 PM
Hi Barefoot James: Dr. Jenson here answering your question. I'm a soil microbiologist by professional academic training and my area of special interest is in the enzymes created by various species of fungi including the 'White and Brown Rot' primary saprophytic decomposers and the Mycorrhizal fungi. I've done work for Michael and his company's Soil Secrets LLC, Watch It Grow Inc., and his nursery Trees That Please, for over 25 years. Most of my work is completed and I'm called in to help when more R & D is needed or when we are doing research on toxic soil remediation. Right now Michael is doing more work on the wood rot fungi as we use the enzymes collected from these fungus bodies in some toxic mine tailing projects we are dealing with here in the States. Michael has given myself and another staff manager permission to articulate in proxy for him on this forum, while he will also pop in from time to time. But rest assured he will always be watching what we write. The other staff member who you may hear from on this forum is Dr. Steve Sain, a professional plant physiologist who's a full time technical staff member for Michael's company's.

There was another question presented on how to manage the site to favor the proliferation of Mycorrhizae, but I'll let Michael answer that question since he's got a quarter of century of hands on experience with this issue and landscape maintenance. It may be a day or two before he has time to add is opinion on that question.

Barefoot James
01-16-2012, 08:54 PM
Wow, this is getting more and more interesting. I get lots of updates from SS on progress and their works and they for sure are cutting edge and growing our industry - BIG TIME.

jonthepain
01-16-2012, 09:38 PM
There was another question presented on how to manage the site to favor the proliferation of Mycorrhizae, but I'll let Michael answer that question since he's got a quarter of century of hands on experience with this issue and landscape maintenance. It may be a day or two before he has time to add is opinion on that question.

I'm looking forward to it.

Great to have you all here.

Harley-D
01-17-2012, 08:49 AM
This is gonna be good. I bet we don't see certain members jumping in on this one posting articles. Haha. We have the actual article writers and Scientists posting. Can't wait to read more about this and the conditions that favor AMF proliferation!

Smallaxe
01-17-2012, 08:54 AM
... There was another question presented on how to manage the site to favor the proliferation of Mycorrhizae, but I'll let Michael answer that question since he's got a quarter of century of hands on experience with this issue and landscape maintenance. It may be a day or two before he has time to add is opinion on that question.

I'll be looking forward to that as well... thanks...

soilsecrets
01-17-2012, 11:15 AM
Soil Secrets has hopes of building a Professional tutorial web site where many issues and questions such as that on mycorrhizal inoculation success can be answered. We will collaborate with the USDA NRSC staff Agronomists and State Soil Scientists on building the site, hopefully providing a top notch educational tool for all professionals in the field from both private and pubic sectors. In the meantime, I'll direct you to our blog where many of the same questions may be answered and where you can safely direct your clients. There is no purchase option for SS products on the blog or on our web sites as we don't sell products direct to the consumer. The blog and the web site are strickly information/education based.

http://www.facebook.com/SoilSecretsLLC and

http://www.soilsecretsblog.com

Michael Martin Meléndrez

jonthepain
01-17-2012, 11:26 AM
I appreciate having another resource where I can send clients for info. Thanks.

Tim Wilson
01-17-2012, 03:53 PM
2 million spores per gram

http://www.usemykepro.com/mykepro-product-mycorrhizae/myke-pro-potato-l-specialty-crops.aspx

Tim Wilson
01-17-2012, 04:12 PM
Because I'm in Canada I just ordered in some Glomus Intraradices at 3200 spores per gram from Premier Tech but one of my customers in the USA wanted to get some. I told him to got to the Soil Secrets website. I guess he could not easily see a way to get the Endo Maxima. Is there a better link or something I can send him to?

I agree about the acid based phosphorous fertilizers. Another issue with them is that most have a high polonium 210 content (radiation). There is probably not much of a worry with landscaping but not great for tobacco, cannabis and vegetables.

One issue I'd really like to see some studies on is the efficacy of applying endomycorrhizal (presumably Intraradices) to established turf. I can see the sense in applying to seed, seed beds, cuttings and roots but need convincing on the turf applications.

soilsecrets
01-17-2012, 08:46 PM
Soil Secrets does not sell direct to consumers, but if your customers in the U. S. will contact us via email or phone, we can direct them to a purchase source. soilsecrets@aol.com and 505 866-7645 (soil)

Smallaxe
01-18-2012, 09:47 AM
So rather than answer the question, we get sucked into another sales pitch... I would rather see an honest attempt to answer the question at hand, first... By the statement of what was promised, it appears there is no real understanding of the question...

What people don't seem to understand in this culture anymore is that credibility needs to be earned and when character issues such as integrity are lacking, there is no credibility to work with, especially in an 'unseen' product, that works whether you have a favorable environment or not...

Thanks for the peek behind the curtain... :)

soilsecrets
01-18-2012, 06:01 PM
Smallaxe:

Sorry for the delay in trying to answer a very good question, however we are really busy this time of year getting our farming clients set up for seeding and none of us have had the time to write an answer that's accurate and not misleading. We shall get to it as soon as we can. Please keep reminding us.

Michael Martin Meléndrez

jonthepain
01-18-2012, 06:17 PM
Former Diplomat?

HayBay
01-18-2012, 07:48 PM
Here is something Michael posted on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENP2dLd9JqI

there is a bunch of them there.

soilsecrets
01-18-2012, 08:52 PM
HayBay, that particular video clip was not posted by Soil Secrets or myself. It was part of a series of lectures performed for Ecoversity, a school in Santa Fe, NM. It was a four hour lecture extracted down to short clips, which causes some concerns for error. It is what it is.