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View Full Version : This advice is from a Lesco rep. today


robert payer
09-13-2002, 08:39 PM
Called Lesco today looking for Finale. No luck they do not carry it. He said use roundup. For my application this will not work. I am hoping to be able to seed 4 days later like can be done with finale.

Here is what is in question: Lesco worker Quote "Roundup, would never put this on the package but you can seed a lawn the same day after spraying Roundup" He says that he knows a guy that does it on a regular basis.

Here is the potential logic: Roundup binds in the soil. Seed will germinate in about 14 days. Soil is fertile again after 7 days.

Can it be done? Will seed be effected? Should one seed on the heavy side?
Has any one done this and seen good results?

Thank you!

longviewlawncare
09-14-2002, 05:40 AM
i seed after roudup all the time. I have not had any problems doing this.hope this helps

robert payer
09-14-2002, 09:09 AM
Longview,

Is any percentage of seed lost? When you use roundup in this case what rate are you mixing at? Any additional info would be appreciated. When overseeding have you ever left the thatch pulled up at the surface as mulch? Seed will make soil contact through mulch thatch top coat. Just hoping to be able to skip picking this thatch and still do a successful job.

Runner
09-14-2002, 04:03 PM
The newer Roundup has an absortion time of 2 1/2 hours. In other words, after 2 1/2 hours, the plant has fully absorbed enough of this to then internally kill the plant. (enough to affect the root) When it hits the soil, however, it deactivates. As long as scythe or some other form of salt isn't used, it should be safe to till (or prep) and seed after 4 days. EsPECially if it has happened to have been watered during this time.

robert payer
09-14-2002, 04:19 PM
Question for clarification: Can a lawn be killed with roundup and over seeded the same day?

Runner
09-14-2002, 05:12 PM
Now, that, I don't know. The same day, I believe is a bit close.

tremor
09-14-2002, 08:16 PM
Robert,

There is 100% ZERO residual from RoundUp.
The next time Monsanto re-registers RoundUp, it is likely that there will be some language changes to the label.
I've not only seeded the same day as spraying RoundUp, but just 2 weeks ago a customer & I did a little test plot. We seeded Tall Fescue right into a mono stand of Crabgrass. Just before we left, I sprayed 1/2 of the plot with RoundUp Pro Dry.
The half I sprayed is far healthier than the half I didn't. No weeds competition for one thing.
I originally got this technique from a customer about 15 years ago. At first, I thought he was crazy. But he proved my wrong.
My local Monsanto rep has also confirmed that Glyphosate has an effect on seed coats that is not unlike that of Phosphorous. In other word, Glyphosate HELP'S seeds to germinate.

Steve

LAWNGODFATHER
09-14-2002, 09:10 PM
I do the same thing tremo discribed, but did not know about the germination. I just did it so when I was walking on the lawn with the slit seeder and/or aerator I did not walk with Round Up on my shoes, or a wet lawn after using a hose and spray tank to apply.

I always thought it took several days for germination/grass leaf to show so in that time the Round Up would have done the job.

I did my lawn this way just yesterday evening.

TurfGuyTX
09-14-2002, 09:40 PM
I've done it and have had success. To answer your question, The lawn may not die the same day, but you can still reseed it. Use Round up Pro Dry or Quick Pro, it works better than Home cheapo version. Good luck.

robert payer
09-15-2002, 09:38 AM
Tremor,

What is a mono stand of crabgrass?

Do you also state that one can spray roundup right over the new seed?

You have all been a big help here. This conversation is interesting and I hope that it will continue.

Guys, did not want to single out Tremor as the sole hero here. Your testimonials were also appreciated.

How about leaving top dressing of thatch to shade seed when overseeding?

LawnSite, Gotta love it! Makes things so easy!

tremor
09-15-2002, 05:07 PM
The rehabilitation hospital we experimented at has a 20 acre front lawn. It get's cut with an old gang reel mower at < 1". The area we used was seeded with anual Rye about 2 years ago by a paving contractor. That area contains no perennial grasses today (except for the 5,000 sq ft test plot).

That lime green (all crabgrass) lawn stayed green all through out this summers drought just like it allways does. But come the first frost, look out. A 100% all brown "monostand" of dead Crabgrass. It looks pretty pathetic until June, when the crabs start to "fill-in". Since the crabs do eventually provide good cover, the current administration doesn't feel the main lawn is worth expending any resources on.

In contrast, the 2 acre courtyard behind the hospital is a stunning example of fine horticulture. The irrigated lawns there are kept near perfection using modern rotary & an agronomically sound program.

The grounds foreman & I want to convince the administration of the hospital that a conversion to durable perennial turf grasses is possible on a respectable budget.

So far, so good.

A word to the wise though. As my fellow associate has already pointed out:
THE LABEL IS THE LAW. So all of this "advice", is perfectly illegal. At least until Monsanto has actually changed the label. Until then, we're all taking chnaces.

Steve

Grasshog
09-22-2002, 12:12 AM
Robert I have had no luck leaving the thatch. I have found it best to pull it up. I use a thatch rake and than mow with a bagger.

For many years now I have spryed a lawn one week and seeded the next. No Problems yet. I have done it in as few as 4 days.
Never the same day.

Good Luck My Friend

robert payer
10-01-2002, 06:05 AM
3 weeks later, so far so good. Grass is up and growing in grid patterns. It was a nice suprise after being away on vacation for a week. I had set a daily timer to water the lawn while away. Watered areas came in well. Unwatered areas are a little weak. I would have to say at this time that the thatch had little to no effect on the new grass. Now that I have a digital camera I will post some pictures soon. Need to learn how. Soon I wil return to this thread. Getting settled in after being away for a week.

robert payer
10-03-2002, 10:17 PM
The grass that was planted both at home and for a customer is coming in well. With overseeding the thatch was left on the surface to serve as straw. This worked well. Can not say if it is better too pick it up. Leaving it worked fine. Less work also. Serves as straw.

As in a above previous post, I seeded 4 days after spraying roundup. Old lawn is dead new one is growing. This is despite Roundup saying 7 days. I do agree that you could consider seeding hours after spraying roundup.

Used that Cross fire 2 brand seed. (petite turf fescue) I think that I am going to like it. Suprised at the weed content that has sprouted.

Well I hope that this info. might be of help to people in the future.

65hoss
10-03-2002, 11:26 PM
I've done it both ways. Roundup and seed on the same day and roundup then seed a few days later. Never had any problems at all.

Thanks guys for all the info on this thread. Helps to see it in black and white that I'm not crazy. :dizzy:

sparechange
10-04-2002, 10:21 AM
Tremor, if the glyphosphate in roundup helps the seed germinate faster, would the application of any phosphate containing liquid help the seed germinate faster? I was thinking of something like a phosphate based detergent. Would this be a suitable technique if you were trying to beat the cold weather when overseeding?

tremor
10-04-2002, 02:07 PM
While I haven't tried it, I'd have to agree that yes, that would probably work too. But then, that's one reason we advocate the use of a good starter fertilizer when the seed goes down. The P does help get roots going. But it also helps to beak stubborn seed coats too.

Steve

TurfTamer
10-06-2002, 09:59 AM
:confused: Doesn't Lesco sell Prosecutor instead of Roundup? Are they basically the same?

Danny ryan
Turftamers Lawn Care
Newark, De 19711

tremor
10-06-2002, 12:13 PM
We sell both. Which is kind of silly really.

Prosecutor is made for us by Riverdale now that Glyphosate is off patent.

Prosecutor is a step up from RoundUp original which had no surfactant. About 1/2 of Prosecutor's inert material is surfactant as opposed to RoundUp Pro which is all surfactant based.

There is a marked improvement over Original by both Pro & Prosecutor. Though only a minimal differnece between the two themselves.

Most off patent Glyphosate that is not Monsanto's contains little or no surfactant. But some do. There are too many for me to keep up with. LOL I found one this summer that has the word "Quick" all over the label & accompanying literature. Research indicated it had less surfactant than most of us used to add to original (when we saw the need). Common consensus now is that the stuff is NOT quick at all. I didn't try it. But have talked to good applicators who did.

For 2003, LESCO will offer Prosecutor Pro. It will be the current RoundUp Pro and will be made by Monsanto. LESCO will continue to own & mantain the Prosecutor label as we do now.

Personally, I never had a good application of Original Roundup fail with or without a surfactant. But I have been impressed with how it's been sped up. That is the only valid complaint I've ever heard. Slow really is only bad for impatient people, of whom there are many.

If speeding up the Non-selective herbicide kill helps applicators get paid then that's terrific. And that's probably reason enough to keep pushing the performance.

Steve