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wyoming lawn service
03-02-2011, 07:40 PM
Last fall I did a complete renovation on my yard. Killed everything with glyphosphate and slit seeded tall fescue blend. Fast forward to now:

I have several areas that are very thin or bare. I overseeded my yard with finelawn tall fescue. Raked in Scott's top soil in the bare areas with seed.

Where do I go from here. Questions?

I know soil temps are still below 50, so....

1) I plan on putting down Starter fertilizer with Siduron but when should I put it down?
2) Do I need to applications of siduron 30 days apart OR can I do one application and then a PRE-M 30 days later?

3) When and what should I use as a post emergant spray....

Thanks! I know what I decided to do is expensive, but I really wanted to try to get those thin areas fuller.

Smallaxe
03-03-2011, 01:02 PM
So Wyoming, you're in Ohio?

Did you have gemination and growth last Fall?

Was it thick and full then, or did you have those bare spots all along?

How old did your new seed get b4 the ground froze?

Sand/clay/loam? Sun/shade? Rich/mineral? and is anything growing in Ohio now?

RigglePLC
03-03-2011, 02:23 PM
Axe is right. More info needed.
I don't personally have experience with (Siduron, Tupersan)(Scotts crabgrass control for seeding). But I am thinking you could wait until the daytime high temps reached about 70 before applying the siduron. Assume the crabgrass (if untreated) would germinate at an air temp of about 80. Also take a look at the Growing Degree Days Tracker for Michigan and certain nearby areas. Based on the weather for that year, it gives you an idea when crabgrass should be treated in your area. And poa seed head emergence and more.
http://gddtracker.net/

wyoming lawn service
03-03-2011, 06:17 PM
So Wyoming, you're in Ohio?

Did you have gemination and growth last Fall?

Was it thick and full then, or did you have those bare spots all along?

How old did your new seed get b4 the ground froze?

Sand/clay/loam? Sun/shade? Rich/mineral? and is anything growing in Ohio now?

I did the full TTTF renovation first last summer I think I planted last week of August. Most areas came in thick except for areas that did not get enough water.

Most of the TTTF came up nice and thick. One area under one of the bigger trees is thin (I had shoulder surgery and couldn't rake any leafs)

Back of the property is near some pines and is pretty thin but that area did not get as much water.

wyoming lawn service
03-03-2011, 06:28 PM
So Wyoming, you're in Ohio?

Did you have gemination and growth last Fall?

Was it thick and full then, or did you have those bare spots all along?

How old did your new seed get b4 the ground froze?

Sand/clay/loam? Sun/shade? Rich/mineral? and is anything growing in Ohio now?

Axe is right. More info needed.
I don't personally have experience with (Siduron, Tupersan)(Scotts crabgrass control for seeding). But I am thinking you could wait until the daytime high temps reached about 70 before applying the siduron. Assume the crabgrass (if untreated) would germinate at an air temp of about 80. Also take a look at the Growing Degree Days Tracker for Michigan and certain nearby areas. Based on the weather for that year, it gives you an idea when crabgrass should be treated in your area. And poa seed head emergence and more.
http://gddtracker.net/


I was reading from Denny Mckowen's site and he said you could dormant seed like I have and later apply Ferti-lome's All Season lawn food with Prodiamine. I am trying to figure out if it would be better to use Siduron as soon as I see germination OR apply Ferti-lome All Season lawn food with Prodiamine when the temps reach 70 degees?

Which of these sounds like the best idea or should I consider a different game plan?

TurnerLawn&Landscape
03-03-2011, 08:10 PM
hey wyoming i'm in northern kentucky.....i would recommend just taking a rake and going over the trouble areas in order to remove any thatch and also loosen up the soil. I am working on the same type of project as we speak. i am currently waiting on soil sample results to see what amendments need to be made. you can put down dormant seed but i think thats a waste of time. i would wait until it warms up. i agree with the starter fertilizer but i would absolutely not put down any pre emerg. and put down the fert at the same time as the seed.

wyoming lawn service
03-03-2011, 08:32 PM
Turner: I raked out all the bad areas put down scotts topsoil w/ starter and already put out my seed.

One thing I am concerned about obviously is crabgrass. Want some recommendations on what I should put down and when to deal with crabgrass. It was BAD last year. Do not want to deal with that again...

wyoming lawn service
03-03-2011, 08:50 PM
Okay read the label for Ferti-lome's All Season Fertilizer with Prodiamine and it states DO NOT apply after overseeding for 60 days OR tow mowings, whichever is greater.

So I guess I answered my question. Crabgrass according to the label normally germinates around May 10 depending upon weather.

Looks like I will wait to see what kind of germination I get. Put down the starter with Siduron at a later date and try to time it so I can get 30 days of coverage with one Siduron application and then put down the Prodiamine. Might be a guessing game....aww waiting for grass to grow, FUN!

RigglePLC
03-04-2011, 09:15 AM
Wyoming,
see, reading the label fine print is a good thing. You are correct, in your plan. Crabgrass is a bear. Plan your moves carefully. Sock down the Siduron 7 days in advance of crabgrass germination. Apply the Prodiamine after the second mowing. If weather is normal and nothing goes wrong--you should be fine. Just make sure it doesn't rain on the day you plan to do the work. You sound like a perfectionist--a top engineer for NASA, I am thinking.

Smallaxe
03-04-2011, 11:08 AM
Okay read the label for Ferti-lome's All Season Fertilizer with Prodiamine and it states DO NOT apply after overseeding for 60 days OR tow mowings, whichever is greater.

So I guess I answered my question. Crabgrass according to the label normally germinates around May 10 depending upon weather.

Looks like I will wait to see what kind of germination I get. Put down the starter with Siduron at a later date and try to time it so I can get 30 days of coverage with one Siduron application and then put down the Prodiamine. Might be a guessing game....aww waiting for grass to grow, FUN!

A label that tells you when CG will germinate... May 10th... wow... We are lucky to get cool season grasses to germinate by the end of May sometimes... Sometimes they'll pop by May 1st...
Hardly ever get CG here, even in open tilled garden soil, with full sun all day long b4 June...

You are able to get fert without herbicides, and herbicides without ferts, aren't you?

Bottom line is if you are scared to grow the grass b4 CG comes in then definately use a grass friendly Pre-m... Itis expensive maybe the only only reason not to use it...

I guess it works OK, but I never have used it myself... :)

ChiTownAmateur
03-04-2011, 06:16 PM
You have an existing stand of grass and want to plant new grass so 2 different issues exist -- how to fertilize the new seeds and also how to prevent crabgrass without preventing germination of your new seed.

I used Scott's Starter w/crabgrass preventer (siduorn) and it works fine. A bit expensive....$45/5000 sq ft at regular home improvement center but my lawn is so small i don't care, that lasts me several seasons.

By the 2nd week of April crabgrass is germinating in the area under normal conditions so if you wait much longer you risk crabgrass in your plot. My suggestion is to closely monitor the weather and search onlilne for soil temperatures near your major city i.e. I have 2 sites I follow and found simply by typing "chicago soil temperature" and there is a daily report.

What you risk here is if you plant to early you may have your new seedlings killed off. Last year, because I am close to the lake I planted on Apr 3 and here by the lake it never froze although in the suburbs that don't have lake protection it would have frozen.

A "safe" idea for you is this. 1st week of April, put down the starter fert with crabgrass preventer so that your plot is "immunized" from crabgrass...but don't seed the bare areas yet. So you are fully protected from crabgrass now, but the starter fert and preventer only lasts say 30 days.

In mid-April (2nd or 3rd week), as soil temps come up, plant your plots that need new seed. The starter fert and crabgrass preventer will still be there and do their jobs. 30 days after your first app of the starter fert w/preventer (NOT 30 days after you plant), apply it again. Thus you have a new round of prevention and your new plot getting another shot of fert right after it comes up and is in need of another shot.

Fescues in this area only take 2-3 weeks to come up, I did it last year with Supina bluegrass which takes a solid 3-4 weeks so you'll have enough time to get it rooted before it gets too hot.

wyoming lawn service
03-04-2011, 09:14 PM
You have an existing stand of grass and want to plant new grass so 2 different issues exist -- how to fertilize the new seeds and also how to prevent crabgrass without preventing germination of your new seed.

I used Scott's Starter w/crabgrass preventer (siduorn) and it works fine. A bit expensive....$45/5000 sq ft at regular home improvement center but my lawn is so small i don't care, that lasts me several seasons.

By the 2nd week of April crabgrass is germinating in the area under normal conditions so if you wait much longer you risk crabgrass in your plot. My suggestion is to closely monitor the weather and search onlilne for soil temperatures near your major city i.e. I have 2 sites I follow and found simply by typing "chicago soil temperature" and there is a daily report.

What you risk here is if you plant to early you may have your new seedlings killed off. Last year, because I am close to the lake I planted on Apr 3 and here by the lake it never froze although in the suburbs that don't have lake protection it would have frozen.

A "safe" idea for you is this. 1st week of April, put down the starter fert with crabgrass preventer so that your plot is "immunized" from crabgrass...but don't seed the bare areas yet. So you are fully protected from crabgrass now, but the starter fert and preventer only lasts say 30 days.

In mid-April (2nd or 3rd week), as soil temps come up, plant your plots that need new seed. The starter fert and crabgrass preventer will still be there and do their jobs. 30 days after your first app of the starter fert w/preventer (NOT 30 days after you plant), apply it again. Thus you have a new round of prevention and your new plot getting another shot of fert right after it comes up and is in need of another shot.

Fescues in this area only take 2-3 weeks to come up, I did it last year with Supina bluegrass which takes a solid 3-4 weeks so you'll have enough time to get it rooted before it gets too hot.

Thank you for the advice! I have already set out the seed, did that over the last two days. I think I will follow your advice. Put down the starter w/ preventer in beginning of April and then I will apply MORE seed to the areas that are bare. Appreciate it!

wyoming lawn service
03-04-2011, 09:16 PM
Wyoming,
see, reading the label fine print is a good thing. You are correct, in your plan. Crabgrass is a bear. Plan your moves carefully. Sock down the Siduron 7 days in advance of crabgrass germination. Apply the Prodiamine after the second mowing. If weather is normal and nothing goes wrong--you should be fine. Just make sure it doesn't rain on the day you plan to do the work. You sound like a perfectionist--a top engineer for NASA, I am thinking.

Not an engineer by any means...BUT I am a perfectionist. Aren't YOU?

wyoming lawn service
03-04-2011, 09:18 PM
A label that tells you when CG will germinate... May 10th... wow... We are lucky to get cool season grasses to germinate by the end of May sometimes... Sometimes they'll pop by May 1st...
Hardly ever get CG here, even in open tilled garden soil, with full sun all day long b4 June...

You are able to get fert without herbicides, and herbicides without ferts, aren't you?

Bottom line is if you are scared to grow the grass b4 CG comes in then definately use a grass friendly Pre-m... Itis expensive maybe the only only reason not to use it...

I guess it works OK, but I never have used it myself... :)


SmallAxe, I read in another post that you NEVER use Pre-M. Why? Does your area not get a lot of crabgrass? Southern Ohio gets a lot, especially last year. What is your strategy? Do share...also if you think I am waisting money by using Siduron, please explain. Thanks.

Smallaxe
03-05-2011, 12:51 PM
SmallAxe, I read in another post that you NEVER use Pre-M. Why? Does your area not get a lot of crabgrass? Southern Ohio gets a lot, especially last year. What is your strategy? Do share...also if you think I am waisting money by using Siduron, please explain. Thanks.

I am a pro that has seen each individual situation of every individual lawn, I've worked with over the past 40+ yrs...

One size does NOT fit all... Under what circumstances does CG become a "PROBLEM" in your area???

Only you can answer that question, becuz you're the one that lives there and "SEES" what is happening... But you have to observe...

I firmly believe that any turf can reach a level of maturity in any 'zone' and eliminate the threat of CG...
I know it can happen in Zones 3 & 4... You tell me if it can happen in Z5-9... :)

Not sure how much explanation is needed to make the simple concept clear... Except perhaps answer "1" question... When do YOU see CG in YOUR area???

tombo82685
03-05-2011, 07:51 PM
SmallAxe, I read in another post that you NEVER use Pre-M. Why? Does your area not get a lot of crabgrass? Southern Ohio gets a lot, especially last year. What is your strategy? Do share...also if you think I am waisting money by using Siduron, please explain. Thanks.

What you also gotta look at is location. His area has better chance of getting away with no pre emerge because there soil temps/growing season is shorter than yours and mine. So what might work with him, might not work for you.

Just like on golf courses up there compared to down here. Courses up there may get away with no or limited fungicides. Down in my area, if you try that you're out of job.

Like smallaxe said, you know your area and how it reacts to certain conditions. It's up to you to determine what is acceptable and not acceptable.

wyoming lawn service
03-05-2011, 11:11 PM
Tombo, appreciate the response. I can see how things will vary from location. Appreciate the advice and knowledge.

Smallaxe
03-06-2011, 08:21 AM
Tombo is correct, that KNOWING what is happening in your area is important...
It would be good for Pros to know WHEN the CG sprouts in their area...

I have an open area in the garden, where the ground is tilled in the springtime so I know that that will be the earliest possible germination in our area... Because it is barren soil, it is easily spotted immediately...
Turf takes longer, even in full sun and of course turf in the shade longer yet...
Have fun... :)