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Ecoscapes
03-03-2011, 12:54 PM
Ive been in the landscape hardscape biz for about 8yrs now, started mowing a few lawns then got into hardscapes as the main focus of biz. After 6 +yrs of mostly hardscapes/stonework I'd like to get back into lawn care and do it organically. There seems to be a void in my area of organic lawn care services so it could be a great niche.
Just wondering if anybody's got any tips on starting out? I already use organic fertilizer doing lawn installs and plantings, but thinking I need to come up with a program to offer folks who are interested. Would I need to do soil samples for all new lawn contracts? How do you get test results quickly? Seems like you'd get a soil sample and treat the lawn accordingly with organic materials and ferts., then what about the mower? Diesel mower run on bio-diesel? Propane? What do you all run? Thanks for any tips!

Smallaxe
03-03-2011, 01:33 PM
There are many ways of looking at "Green" lawncare tools.
The stink of a biofuel mower would not be the way to go, IMO... Groundup soy/corn meals shipped in from afar by Trucks, tractors, harvestors, seeders, from fields covered by Roundup/synthetic ferts doesn't really make 'Green' either...

To start with, I believe one needs to drop the idea that, "Your lawn will look like kr@pp for a couple of years, but then you'll REALLY see the benefits!!!", mentality... That is stupid advertising, IMO...

Reduced inputs and sensible cultural practices is a great place to start... It saves the client enough money that you have a budget for quick fixes on an 'as needed' basis...

This also gives both you and the client to learn and adjust as you go... :)

Ecoscapes
03-03-2011, 01:55 PM
Good points Smallaxe! Phase in an organic program over time vs telling customer its gonna be crappy for a couple years; that's such a good point, those chemicals practically work overnight, while organic fert. and compost is a gradual change, but so much more sustainable. I've always said the chem lawn is a lawn on steriods, looks great but it needs its drugs often. So the selling of an organic program and how you word everything is quite important!

Biodeez, your right its probably not organic corn their using! Dang its gotta be better than propane, if I have to burn regular fuel when mowing lawns it kind of defeats the purpose of organic lawn care... must be a way -

Smallaxe
03-03-2011, 02:25 PM
Good points Smallaxe! Phase in an organic program over time vs telling customer its gonna be crappy for a couple years; that's such a good point, those chemicals practically work overnight, while organic fert. and compost is a gradual change, but so much more sustainable. I've always said the chem lawn is a lawn on steriods, looks great but it needs its drugs often. So the selling of an organic program and how you word everything is quite important!

Biodeez, your right its probably not organic corn their using! Dang its gotta be better than propane, if I have to burn regular fuel when mowing lawns it kind of defeats the purpose of organic lawn care... must be a way -

You can always get the old time push reel mower... OR talk them into a No-Mow type grass... :)

The lawn on steriods, is a good analogy, in that you can see how much it reduces the "Health" of the turf.
Healthy turf is able to survive all kinds of stress, disease, defiencies, etc... whereas many of the steroid lawns, can fall apart as the drop of a hat... This of course gives you another solution for a profitable problem... nod, nod, wink, wink...

ICT Bill
03-05-2011, 04:22 PM
Good points Smallaxe! Phase in an organic program over time vs telling customer its gonna be crappy for a couple years; that's such a good point, those chemicals practically work overnight, while organic fert. and compost is a gradual change, but so much more sustainable. I've always said the chem lawn is a lawn on steriods, looks great but it needs its drugs often. So the selling of an organic program and how you word everything is quite important!

Biodeez, your right its probably not organic corn their using! Dang its gotta be better than propane, if I have to burn regular fuel when mowing lawns it kind of defeats the purpose of organic lawn care... must be a way -

Some of the basics are:
start an aggresive seeding program
Find a good source of local compost, someone that monitors temp's in the pile

on most sites for 2 years in the fall, core aerate, overseed, spray compost tea, top dress with compost

In your area you can probably get away with spring seeding with good to great results

Carry compost and a bag of seed for open areas, you can be just like Emrile "BAMM"

Monitor soil organic matter through testing, you need 2% to begin a program, 5% to 7% is the goal. Once you get the SOM up you can coast for a couple of years with teas to keep color and density

Use compost teas or a kelp fish mix to relieve heat stress in the summer

Smallaxe
03-05-2011, 05:51 PM
Ive been in the landscape hardscape biz for about 8yrs now, started mowing a few lawns then got into hardscapes as the main focus of biz. After 6 +yrs of mostly hardscapes/stonework I'd like to get back into lawn care and do it organically. There seems to be a void in my area of organic lawn care services so it could be a great niche.
Just wondering if anybody's got any tips on starting out? I already use organic fertilizer doing lawn installs and plantings, but thinking I need to come up with a program to offer folks who are interested. Would I need to do soil samples for all new lawn contracts? How do you get test results quickly? Seems like you'd get a soil sample and treat the lawn accordingly with organic materials and ferts., then what about the mower? Diesel mower run on bio-diesel? Propane? What do you all run? Thanks for any tips!

It seems like I discussed this with you b4 , but do you have a strategy for CG?

jonthepain
03-06-2011, 03:32 PM
do you have a strategy for CG?

with some clients, i use a "bridge program" (chem pre- or post- M as needed) until the lawn is thick enough to prevent weed germination (or at least prevent an acceptable amount of weed germination), and then manage similar to that outlined by ICT Bill.

core aerate spring and fall
topdress with cert. compost if client will go for it
aggressive overseeding
fish/kelp/molasses/C and V Tea solution once a month during growing season (timing is diff for cool and warm season grasses - we have both here.)

clients seem happy with it; lawns look good, esp compared to neighbor's chemically treated lawns during summer heat stress.

Smallaxe
03-07-2011, 10:44 AM
Do you believe that turf will 'mature' at some point, if allowed to grow naturally? That the core aerations and special treatments would become redundant?

OrganicsMaine
03-07-2011, 12:42 PM
Do you believe that turf will 'mature' at some point, if allowed to grow naturally? That the core aerations and special treatments would become redundant?

I have wondered that myself. However, after some thought, I came to the conclusion that it wouldn't. Mainly because a lawn is always changing. Weather conditions, usage, pest pressure etc., change from year to year. Even though we are trying to create the best environment, it still isn't in its natural environment, so it will always need some help. JMO

jonthepain
03-07-2011, 01:20 PM
"If allowed to grow naturally..." as in, in an open field or on the plains, no mowing etc.? Absolutely it will become mature imo.

In a fescue lawn? According to my turf management profs at State, as the individual plants mature and grow old, they decline. Some will live longer than others, so you get clumps.

So at the very least, the mature lawn would require overseeding.

As OrganicsMaine said, the microclimate changes from year to year. But I think that "need" is a subjective term in this case - what is acceptable for one person is not for another, and may even change from front to back yard.

For instance, I have bermuda and centipede in my front yard (approx 6000 sf) that I maintain for looks, so acceptable is much different than for my back yard, which is much larger, that I maintain for frisbee.

The backyard I have not given input 1 in 12 years, (except for it's own clippings,) and it is acceptable to me. Sure, lots of broadleaf weeds in some areas, a mixture of fescue and bermuda and garlic, no crabgrass. However, it is only used for play and the occasional cookout.

Full sun, sandy clay soil, with gray clay hardpan underneath, about 12" down.

So zero input for 12 years, and I haven't seen much difference from then until now. More dandelions perhaps.

So I guess what I'm saying is that whether or not aerations and treatments become redundant or not would depend on the turf species, the microclimate, the cultural practices, the use, and how we define "acceptable."

Smallaxe
03-07-2011, 07:48 PM
I have wondered that myself. However, after some thought, I came to the conclusion that it wouldn't. Mainly because a lawn is always changing. Weather conditions, usage, pest pressure etc., change from year to year. Even though we are trying to create the best environment, it still isn't in its natural environment, so it will always need some help. JMO

That is a very good point... But it does turn our attention back to the idea of the right plant in the right place...

Around here, Junegrass, will completely dominate wild areas, that are eaten off as pasture or mowed as lawn...

This is a cousin of KBG brought in from Europe that has really choked out everything as far as weeds are concerned...

I've done pretty good in the landscapes as far as eliminating CG, but we've had some broadleaf concerns... minimal yet they do exist... yet over time they are negligible...

The basic question is: Has anyone been able to grow turf with minimal inputs???

jonthepain
03-07-2011, 08:36 PM
yup

see previous post

OrganicsMaine
03-07-2011, 08:40 PM
I agree that that is what we need to strive for. When it comes to grass, I don't subscribe to the thought that because grass is not growing in its "proper" location that we shouldn't have lawns. I'm sure you know that there are many positives that a lawn provides both environmentally, socially, and economically.

So, who has that lawn that would be acceptable to the masses, but is low input as well? Maybe we should start a picture thread? :drinkup:

jonthepain
03-07-2011, 08:55 PM
I have done absolutely nothing to this centipede in twelve years, except cut it (at a rather longish 2.5")

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e248/jonthepain/LSaeratormagnolia.jpg

Smallaxe
03-08-2011, 08:50 AM
Is that all the thicker centipede gets?
Looks nice though, so one wold have to say that that particular grass is growing in the right place.... :)

ParadiseLS
03-10-2011, 03:15 PM
i don't really think it is appropriate to refer to "phasing in" an organic program, unless you're working like an ant on your lawns.

1. if you're using chemicals, you are harming the delicate ecosystem in the rhizoshpere, which isn't just NOT an organic program, it's actually working AGAINST an organic program. so i assume when people talk about "phasing in" or "half-and-half" programs, they basically mean building up SOM. if that's what you're doing, that's not really an organics program, that's just adding compost apps to a chemical program--granted, you may be reducing inputs of chemicals, but it's still just compost.

2. if you're fixing up the soil after chemical apps with additional tea apps or whatever you might do, then i suppose this could be a true mixed approach to lawn care, blending organics and chemicals. but frankly, this seems crazy to me. you're basically doing twice the work than you ought to. you add a chemical, then you come back shortly after to regenerate the activity in the rhizoshpere. i thought that the main barrier to doing a balls-to-the-wall approach to organics was cost. it costs a lot more money, time, expertise to turn a lawn off chemicals and minimize the struggle your lawn is in to stay beautiful while SOM is low and the soil food web is inadequate. but if you're spending all this extra time to cancel out the damage your chemicals are doing, you might as well just put that cost into more organics activity.



i guess there are ways to phase in organics while still keeping chemical practices going, i just generally think people aren't truly doing that. and i'm not even arguing whether the phasing-in approach or the all-out approach is better. i just want you to consider that you are either still chemical (+ one additional service) or you might as well just go all-out organic for the time and cost that you need to put in to a serious half-and-half approach.

Smallaxe
03-10-2011, 06:09 PM
i don't really think it is appropriate to refer to "phasing in" an organic program, unless you're working like an ant on your lawns.

1. if you're using chemicals, you are harming the delicate ecosystem in the rhizoshpere, which isn't just NOT an organic program, it's actually working AGAINST an organic program. so i assume when people talk about "phasing in" or "half-and-half" programs, they basically mean building up SOM. if that's what you're doing, that's not really an organics program, that's just adding compost apps to a chemical program--granted, you may be reducing inputs of chemicals, but it's still just compost.

2. if you're fixing up the soil after chemical apps with additional tea apps or whatever you might do, then i suppose this could be a true mixed approach to lawn care, blending organics and chemicals. but frankly, this seems crazy to me. you're basically doing twice the work than you ought to. you add a chemical, then you come back shortly after to regenerate the activity in the rhizoshpere. i thought that the main barrier to doing a balls-to-the-wall approach to organics was cost. it costs a lot more money, time, expertise to turn a lawn off chemicals and minimize the struggle your lawn is in to stay beautiful while SOM is low and the soil food web is inadequate. but if you're spending all this extra time to cancel out the damage your chemicals are doing, you might as well just put that cost into more organics activity.



i guess there are ways to phase in organics while still keeping chemical practices going, i just generally think people aren't truly doing that. and i'm not even arguing whether the phasing-in approach or the all-out approach is better. i just want you to consider that you are either still chemical (+ one additional service) or you might as well just go all-out organic for the time and cost that you need to put in to a serious half-and-half approach.

The use of the word "organic' is kind of a religious word now days... I think there is a consensus amongst most people that 'Natural' w/out synthetic inputs would be more accurate. The funny thing about the introduction of ferts about 60 years ago everybody was dealing with natural lawns at a very cheap price... Not more expensive with intense knowledge etc., but rather less expensive...

Once it was realized that we could eliminate all weeds with the herbicides that quickly followed the ferts, then the bar was raised much higher for a 'quality' lawn... keeping up with the Joneses was the New Goal...

For the sake of sales and constantly having grass grow even in extreme heat, when it should be resting, the market took off to create fungal habitat and thatch, real thatch, not dead grass leaves...

From that POV the idea of " mixing org/syn", just means backing off the excesses and building a mature stand of turf, naturally...

Yes, SOM is a big part of that along with other soil sciences such as structure... If you are coming at it from the idea that ferts kill the rhizosphere and it needs to be replaced by expensive long term alternatives, you have already lost the business...

None of those things are necessary, grass grows naturally... remember that much, and your client will thank you... :)

JDUtah
03-10-2011, 07:48 PM
i don't really think it is appropriate to refer to "phasing in" an organic program, unless you're working like an ant on your lawns.

1. if you're using chemicals, you are harming the delicate ecosystem in the rhizoshpere, which isn't just NOT an organic program, it's actually working AGAINST an organic program. so i assume when people talk about "phasing in" or "half-and-half" programs, they basically mean building up SOM. if that's what you're doing, that's not really an organics program, that's just adding compost apps to a chemical program--granted, you may be reducing inputs of chemicals, but it's still just compost.

2. if you're fixing up the soil after chemical apps with additional tea apps or whatever you might do, then i suppose this could be a true mixed approach to lawn care, blending organics and chemicals. but frankly, this seems crazy to me. you're basically doing twice the work than you ought to. you add a chemical, then you come back shortly after to regenerate the activity in the rhizoshpere. i thought that the main barrier to doing a balls-to-the-wall approach to organics was cost. it costs a lot more money, time, expertise to turn a lawn off chemicals and minimize the struggle your lawn is in to stay beautiful while SOM is low and the soil food web is inadequate. but if you're spending all this extra time to cancel out the damage your chemicals are doing, you might as well just put that cost into more organics activity.



i guess there are ways to phase in organics while still keeping chemical practices going, i just generally think people aren't truly doing that. and i'm not even arguing whether the phasing-in approach or the all-out approach is better. i just want you to consider that you are either still chemical (+ one additional service) or you might as well just go all-out organic for the time and cost that you need to put in to a serious half-and-half approach.

Here we go again.... :dizzy:

ICT Bill
03-10-2011, 08:15 PM
Here we go again.... :dizzy:

Its a learning curve JD, people have to drill down to the enth degree in order to come back to "wow that is really simple" feed their lust for knowledge, tell them your experiences

I hear preaching every Sunday, which is quite enough for me

jonthepain
03-10-2011, 09:52 PM
i'm with axe and bill on this one

Dr.NewEarth
03-23-2011, 04:04 PM
Hey. Check out Fiesta and Ecosense to control the weeds.

jonthepain
03-28-2011, 10:42 PM
Hey. Check out Fiesta and Ecosense to control the weeds.

I'm trying Imprelis. Seems like the most effective and least toxic solution for clients that need weed control until the turf is thick and healthy enough to crowd them out on it's own.

Have had no luck with any of the organics, and the experts that I've contacted at NC State have had similar results in field trials.

ICT Bill
03-29-2011, 08:16 AM
I'm trying Imprelis. Seems like the most effective and least toxic solution for clients that need weed control until the turf is thick and healthy enough to crowd them out on it's own.

Have had no luck with any of the organics, and the experts that I've contacted at NC State have had similar results in field trials.

Read the label first and you will run from imprelis quickly
remember to notify every customer you are using it or it will be a violation of the label which is a federal offence

IT IS AN ENDOCRINE DISRUPTER!!!!

jonthepain
03-29-2011, 08:38 AM
yup, obviously I don't want to endanger my North Carolina Department of Agriculture & Consumer Services License #29603 by neglecting something as simple as telling my clients what the hell I'm doing.

no offense.

starry night
03-29-2011, 10:53 AM
Read the label first and you will run from imprelis quickly
remember to notify every customer you are using it or it will be a violation of the label which is a federal offence

IT IS AN ENDOCRINE DISRUPTER!!!!

Bill, You know it's beyond my thinking to understand why the government is worried that we may eat to many Big Macs and yet it's OK to be spraying stuff like this.

OrganicsMaine
03-29-2011, 11:23 AM
It would all depend on how much the chem. co's are donating to the campaigns of our elected officials.

Obviously, McD's isn't Ponying up enough cash.

ICT Bill
03-29-2011, 09:50 PM
yup, obviously I don't want to endanger my North Carolina Department of Agriculture & Consumer Services License #29603 by neglecting something as simple as telling my clients what the hell I'm doing.

no offense.

I am not saying that you are not an upstanding person in your community, obviously you are. If there was any offense taken on my comment it was not intentional

Endocrine disrupter's disrupt the endocrine system! they disrupt the hormonal system so that it cannot function, HELLO!

you are being sold a bag of crap by the people you speak with that are touting this as some kind of green product, it is not, it is poison times X, and very concentrated

"you can use much less" WHY? have you not asked the question, because it is really concentrated poison that is an ENDOCRINE DISRUPTER, look it up, it is not smart, do not bring your clothes home and near your family.

Have you read the label?
You cannot use it within 15 feet of shrubs
you cannot spray it on roots of trees
you cannot spray it within 25 feet of water
it is extremely toxic to fish

are you F'n crazy, where could you possibly find a lawn that meets those parameters

jonthepain
03-30-2011, 06:35 AM
ok fine, i won't use it. no need for insults.

what you suggest for weed control?

JDUtah
03-30-2011, 11:12 AM
Bill,

You say you can use less of it because it is more concentrated, but can you tell me how that relates the the OLD-50 rating it has?

Also, where did you get this information about it being a human endocrine disruptor?

Thanks

americanlawn
03-31-2011, 07:09 PM
I agree with ICT Bill. Spoke with a local rep too (Imprelis is risky).

Regarding plant health -- NO PLANT prefers its natural growing height reduced. Grass, trees, shrubs, etc. I mow my Kentucky bluegrass at 4 inches just to minimize stress. It's healtheir and crowds out weeds.

Too bad many homeowners mow short, and/or bag the clippings, cuz they are creating problems. My 2 cents

starry night
03-31-2011, 09:19 PM
I agree with ICT Bill. Spoke with a local rep too (Imprelis is risky).

Regarding plant health -- NO PLANT prefers its natural growing height reduced. Grass, trees, shrubs, etc. I mow my Kentucky bluegrass at 4 inches just to minimize stress. It's healtheir and crowds out weeds.

Too bad many homeowners mow short, and/or bag the clippings, cuz they are creating problems. My 2 cents

Or whack down their bushes to unnatural sizes and shapes.

Kiril
03-31-2011, 11:19 PM
Or whack down their bushes to unnatural sizes and shapes.

Maybe if people choose regionally appropriate plants that can grow without the need for constant pruning to keep them under control .... then maintaining the landscape would be much cheaper, less inputs required, and the plants would be much healthier.

I know this comment probably isn't welcome here, given it doesn't fit into the profit only mindset that this forum is apparently about, but I figured I'd risk it anyhow. After all, who the hell cares about good land stewardship or BMP's when you can turn a quick buck.

starry night
04-01-2011, 08:20 AM
Kiril, I respect your philosophy but your umbrella doesn't quite cover my comment. I was referring more to the placement of plants as foundation plantings. For instance, viburnums whose natural beauty is taken away by harsh pruning, or worse, shearing. But I don't want to hijack this thread so that is far as I'm going to go.

GrassPlusLLC
04-01-2011, 12:22 PM
I am not saying that you are not an upstanding person in your community, obviously you are. If there was any offense taken on my comment it was not intentional

Endocrine disrupter's disrupt the endocrine system! they disrupt the hormonal system so that it cannot function, HELLO!

you are being sold a bag of crap by the people you speak with that are touting this as some kind of green product, it is not, it is poison times X, and very concentrated

"you can use much less" WHY? have you not asked the question, because it is really concentrated poison that is an ENDOCRINE DISRUPTER, look it up, it is not smart, do not bring your clothes home and near your family.

Have you read the label?
You cannot use it within 15 feet of shrubs
you cannot spray it on roots of trees
you cannot spray it within 25 feet of water
it is extremely toxic to fish

are you F'n crazy, where could you possibly find a lawn that meets those parameters



ICT BILL

You seem very knowledgeable based on other posts I have seen. I am considering using imprelis this season and I am attempting to separate fact from fiction.

Please read the Imprelis label again. You made four points in the above post. One of which is clearly correct and three that don't seem accurate based on the label that I have in front of me.

1) You cannot use it within 15 feet of shrubs

I do not see this on the label. The label says that you can not allow the product on shrubs or any drift on shrubs(pretty standard for other products in use). It says to apply between 3 and 4.5 oz/k. It goes on to say that you can apply at 6 oz/k if you are not within 5' of desirable plants. Please tell me what section of label says you can't use within 15' of shrubs. Perhaps I missed it?

2) You cannot spray on roots of trees and shrubs

I see that on label and agree. However, a commercial applicator should be able to avoid spraying on exposed roots. I can see why this should never be GUP. I can see why it might be a problem when sending out applictors that forget what they are applying or don't have proper written instructions from their supervisor.

3) You cannot spray it within 25' of water.

The 25 foot buffer restriction is under the heading " Application Restrictions for Sod Farms and Turf (EXCEPT residential, Institutional, or Industrial)"
I do not see this as a restriction on residential lawns. However, the "Environmental Hazards" section does warrant very careful use near water. It would certainly help if Dupont was a bit clearer on issues with rainfall. The "environmental Hazards" section says to avoid application when rainfall is [B]forecasted[B] within 48 hours. Forecasted and actual rainfall are obviously two different things. The product is rainfast immediately which will definitely help with results, but is it smart to apply during or close to rain as some on this site plan? Good question for dupont

4) It is extremely toxic to fish

This may be the case. I do not have the msds in front of me, but I do have the label and while there are warnings regarding surface water and groundwater contamination, I do not see anything on the label that says it is extremely toxic to fish. Most pesticides that are extremely toxic to fish clearly state such on the label. Please advise -maybe I missed the warning.

ICT Bill
04-01-2011, 08:07 PM
ICT BILL

You seem very knowledgeable based on other posts I have seen. I am considering using imprelis this season and I am attempting to separate fact from fiction.

Please read the Imprelis label again. You made four points in the above post. One of which is clearly correct and three that don't seem accurate based on the label that I have in front of me.

1) You cannot use it within 15 feet of shrubs

I do not see this on the label. The label says that you can not allow the product on shrubs or any drift on shrubs(pretty standard for other products in use). It says to apply between 3 and 4.5 oz/k. It goes on to say that you can apply at 6 oz/k if you are not within 5' of desirable plants. Please tell me what section of label says you can't use within 15' of shrubs. Perhaps I missed it?

2) You cannot spray on roots of trees and shrubs

I see that on label and agree. However, a commercial applicator should be able to avoid spraying on exposed roots. I can see why this should never be GUP. I can see why it might be a problem when sending out applictors that forget what they are applying or don't have proper written instructions from their supervisor.

3) You cannot spray it within 25' of water.

The 25 foot buffer restriction is under the heading " Application Restrictions for Sod Farms and Turf (EXCEPT residential, Institutional, or Industrial)"
I do not see this as a restriction on residential lawns. However, the "Environmental Hazards" section does warrant very careful use near water. It would certainly help if Dupont was a bit clearer on issues with rainfall. The "environmental Hazards" section says to avoid application when rainfall is [B]forecasted[B] within 48 hours. Forecasted and actual rainfall are obviously two different things. The product is rainfast immediately which will definitely help with results, but is it smart to apply during or close to rain as some on this site plan? Good question for dupont

4) It is extremely toxic to fish

This may be the case. I do not have the msds in front of me, but I do have the label and while there are warnings regarding surface water and groundwater contamination, I do not see anything on the label that says it is extremely toxic to fish. Most pesticides that are extremely toxic to fish clearly state such on the label. Please advise -maybe I missed the warning.

Yes you caught me I was paraphrasing and not quoting the label.

IT IS AN ENDOCRINE DISRUPTER!!!!!!!!!!! its main purpose is to disrupt the hormonal system in plants, if you believe that we may have maybe one or 2 things in common........well you make the choice

Make sure you tell everyone of your customers that they can no longer use their lawn clippings in their compost or in their garden on the ground as a weed suppressor , I do it all of the time especially in the spring when you have to rake the excess off so it does not smother the turf. Doesn't that worry you a little that it is SO persistent

The marketing is very good and you are being told "it is almost green"......... six legged frogs and unisex fish scare the hell out of me whatever endocrine disrupter it is coming from, its just not smart

GrassPlusLLC
04-02-2011, 10:19 AM
ICT BILL

I was not trying to catch you. I was actually trying to get more information from you in order to sort through all the heavy marketing of the product to determine if I should use it.

All the products I use concern me. I especially do not like using extremely corrosive products like three way that can burn your eyes out. Being that Imprelis is not corrosive, requires very little PPE per label, has no nasty smells is applied in small quantities, perhaps allows for fewer applications per season, can be applied at seeding and at high temperatures etc., I am considering it.

The endocrine disruptor issue you have referred to is certainly a concern. I will have to research that issue and attempt to determine if it is a human endocrine disruptor or if it clearly is not. Wish me luck-I'm a lot of things, but no scientist. This could be the issue that prevents me from using it. Your concern of humans being similar in someway to plants is well taken.

The persistence issue (assuming approximately six months or less) that I have heard does not concern me in itself. That is the characteristic that may allow less applications per season and less product introduced into environment. The persistence would be an issue for me if it somehow caused more opportunities for the product to leach or move from application area or to water table. Could it have received approval with out that issue being worked out? Seems hard for me to believe, but I suppose possible.

In Connecticut we must supply all labels to customers before contracting services. The compost warning is not that much of an issue to me. One of the reasons to use the product is for its residual properties. It's easy to tell customer not to compost clippings because the more expensive product we are using works for a longer period of time and the clippings can kill your plants(up to a reasonable time frame of course- say 6 months or so). If I used it, I would also tell them that is is not corrosive, won't burn my eyes out, won't smell nasty and is applied at 4.5 oz per acre as opposed to 60ish oz/acre like most three ways. We will see

JDUtah
04-03-2011, 01:39 AM
Bill,

I am also waiting on some expanded information. May I refer you to this post (http://lawnsite.com/showpost.php?p=3964113&postcount=29)?

HayBay
04-03-2011, 11:53 AM
The EPA only allows the use of Safe Products. If they receive info that they believe makes a product unsafe it will be removed from the market.

They have removed products for political reasons in the past with products like DDT.
Now there is talk about bringing it back.

You need to follow the label on any product to use it safely.

Fearmongering = endocrine disrputor

DUSTYCEDAR
04-03-2011, 12:12 PM
proper mowing goes a long way to a good lawn
as does overseeding

phasthound
04-03-2011, 01:30 PM
The EPA only allows the use of Safe Products. If they receive info that they believe makes a product unsafe it will be removed from the market.


I've been looking everywhere for that information. Where can I find that statement made by the EPA?

HayBay
04-03-2011, 07:03 PM
This is the product banned In Ontario for cosmetic pesticide usage.

The medical expert used to ban this product (The Canadian Cancer Society) claims it causes cancer.

This is a product we use on the farmers fields for our food crops. (for the people that did not know)

This is a product that everyone uses because its reasonably priced and its safe when used as directed. (50+ years of testing) Most of all IT WORKS for its intended purpose.

...
Health Canada says :

Is it safe to use the herbicide 2,4-D on my lawn?

Following extensive consultation and scientific review using the most current scientific methods, Health Canada has determined that 2,4-D meets Canada's strict health and safety standards, and as such can be used safely when label directions are followed. Health Canada's review concurs with the findings of regulators in other OECD countries, including the United States, European Union, New Zealand and the World Health Organization.

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/cps-spc/pest/faq-eng.php

HayBay
04-03-2011, 07:17 PM
The quote below goes with the link in the post above:

Health Canada is aware of public concern regarding domestic uses of pesticides on lawns and gardens (often referred to as "cosmetic" or aesthetic uses). The following questions and answers on the re-evaluation decision of 2,4-D and pesticide regulation in Canada have been developed to help clarify concerns on the safety of pesticide use

To stay on course of the thread, If you want to reduce pesticide usage, a bridge type programs if possible.

Barefoot James
04-03-2011, 08:14 PM
Some of the basics are:
start an aggresive seeding program
Find a good source of local compost, someone that monitors temp's in the pile

on most sites for 2 years in the fall, core aerate, overseed, spray compost tea, top dress with compost

In your area you can probably get away with spring seeding with good to great results

Carry compost and a bag of seed for open areas, you can be just like Emrile "BAMM"

Monitor soil organic matter through testing, you need 2% to begin a program, 5% to 7% is the goal. Once you get the SOM up you can coast for a couple of years with teas to keep color and density

Use compost teas or a kelp fish mix to relieve heat stress in the summer
Great post Bill - I never really thought about it like this (simple) but very true!

Tim Wilson
04-03-2011, 09:32 PM
Fearmongering = endocrine disrputor

Of course! Now why did I not think of that?

HayBay
04-03-2011, 10:08 PM
Huber is down for the count. Poor Guy. All those years and his peers discredit him now.

ICT Bill
04-04-2011, 09:34 PM
you asked my opinion.........didn't you?

I gave it

where I live near Washington DC, unisex fish in bass is becoming common in streams and rivers and we are not EVEN close to the corn, soy, growing basket of the USA, but are certainly downstream

ICT Bill
04-04-2011, 09:38 PM
Great post Bill - I never really thought about it like this (simple) but very true!

You had to go a long way to come back to "simple" didn't you? It is just the way it works. I am happy to know you for the trip

I have just copyrighted that phrase for a country music song