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DirtMedics
03-03-2011, 03:00 PM
Long time lurker, first time poster. Just wanted to run a few ideas by people who do this every day. I am in the planning process for an athletic development on about 60 or so acres. Mainly concerned with the dirt work, as my background is dealing with once the grass is already growing. I have attached a picture of the site and color coded a few things I have questions about.

http://s470.photobucket.com/albums/rr62/westsweeper4/?action=view&current=MapofSoccerComplex.png


BLUE line is the existing creek.

RED line will be a 3-5 foot high dike to keep flooding off of the fields. Dike will be between 15 and 30 feet wide.

YELLOW area is the irrigation and storm water retention pond. Pond will be about 6.5 acres in size with a depth of 10-12 feet at summer pool.

My questions relate to the excavation of the pond. I will be doing most of the work myself with help from some friends. The big hitch with the pond is that we need to screen about 75000 yd3 of the soil. I want to handle the soil as little as possible.

The excavator that will be used is a Volvo 360. This is where the WHITE line comes into play. What I was thinking is that a larger dozer can feed the 360, which will load a 500 tph screener. How large of a dozer do I need to keep up with the 360?

Then once the soil is screened, it will be carried over to the BLACK area by 120' of conveyor and and 80' radial stacker. This way the dozer can feed the excavator during the week, and the on the weekend it can spread the screened soil.

Like I said before, I dont have any experience with screening soil, but I am comfortable with everything else. This will be my sole job once construction starts, and the more money we save on construction, the more we can put into extras that got cut out of the budget (Lighting mainly).

Am I off my rocker?

THEGOLDPRO
03-03-2011, 03:03 PM
big red x man.

DirtMedics
03-03-2011, 03:06 PM
ok think i figured it out.

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr62/westsweeper4/MapofSoccerComplex.png?t=1299179236

mxridernorth
03-03-2011, 03:10 PM
don't you need a minimum number of posts before you can add pictures?

forestfireguy
03-03-2011, 03:25 PM
I missed the red...

J. Peterson Grading
03-03-2011, 06:00 PM
Gold Rush Alaska.

J.

Dirtman2007
03-03-2011, 07:00 PM
If you dig down 10-12 feet with a creek/water table that close your not going to be digging dirt that will be screenable ANYTIME soon.

DirtMedics
03-03-2011, 07:29 PM
Ok, a little more information. From where the pond will be to where the new turf area will be is roughly 3 foot elevation change. So even if can only get 6 to 8 feet of screenable dirt, that is better than none at all.

So I guess back to the main question is what size dozer do I need to keep the 360 running?

Dirtman2007
03-03-2011, 07:40 PM
Ok I've got another question... why does the dirt need to be screened? I'm mean I understand the top 1' or so so you can work it in real nice but I'd just use regular fill dirt for the field.

I'd say atleast a cat D6 pushing dirt, let it stockpile a day before to screen so the hoe does not run out. if the dozer pushes faster than he can screen then he can just go around and push down the screened pile.

your not going to be able to run and entire week without pushing down the screened dirt anyways.

I'd plan on setting up the screening plant 2 times, one on each end to keep from pushing the dirt so far.... best of luck


ON EDIT:


wait 60 acres? your gonna need some off road haul trucks. you're gonna push your tracks off pushing dirt over 60 acres!

AEL
03-04-2011, 11:35 AM
wait 60 acres? your gonna need some off road haul trucks. you're gonna push your tracks off pushing dirt over 60 acres!

My thoughts exactly.

Sometimes you will try to minimize equipment on site thinking that you are saving money, when actually your waisting time and money. This is a huge project for someone with limited experience to be tackling.

Use the blade to strip the area of topsoil first, move the topsoil to a stockpile area with the artic trucks, dig your swm pond using the excavator. Have the larger blade knocking over the piles and constructing your berm, mabee even rent a second smaller blade to maintain your haul roads , and push some material towards the excavator.

Equipment i would have on this site-

360 volvo excavator
Cat D6 blade
2 Volvo 25 tonne rock trucks
John deere 650 j lgp blade.
De-watering equipment on standby.

Other things to think of- Do you have a sediment control plan? Do you have experienced operators (im sorry but having your "buddies" help you out on this one is a bad idea. Lots of guys still laid off, call a local company im sure they can recomend some of there guys to you.)
Are you putting a large fuel tank on site or having it delivered daily? ( you will need fuel daily)

Have you already bid this job?

ksss
03-04-2011, 12:53 PM
That is a project. Couple questions: why are you screening all that material? I cant come up with a reason to screen all of it unless that is how much TS you think you will need, but that seems heavy to me.

Have you considered the fact you will need a SWPP in place? A 60 acre project will get the attention of DEQ, especially with a stream/river near by. I would expect a visit. I would consider this idea. With a couple pans, you could rough everything in to subgrade. THEN take your stock piled topsoil run through screener only to produce the topsoil you need, lay it out however you would like Pan, grader, dozer whatever. This will give the material time to dry out which will give you better success with the screener and your not running more material than you need. There is no cheaper way to move a lot of dirt than with a pan. A couple Quad tracks pulling two 24 yd pans means 100 yards a cycle. Considering how large the project is you will this kind of productivity and fast cycle times. Ground speed on a scraper is a little faster but their cost per yard is higher. Either way.

A 360 and a dozer are not the way in my opinion. Like mentioned you will need a lot more equipment, like haul trucks and a lot of help.

DirtMedics
03-04-2011, 01:01 PM
The soil is needing to be screened for the playing fields area only. This will help facilitate the drainage of the fields for the drainage system being installed.The drainage manufacturer specs call for 1/2 screened soil for native soil playing fields. The dimensions on that area is 1440*720 or 23 acres. So at 18" deep over the 23 acres is 57600 yd3.

The buddies I am referring are local excavating contractors who have greatly helped me thus far. I am just looking to get as many different ideas on to how to do this.

As far as the bid, there is no bid. I am the "contractor". Land was donated and the project is NOT being financed. I personally worked on the construction several golf courses operating equipment. Plenty competent on the ex, wheel loader, dozer, skid and backhoe.

So that is why I want to keep as much "in house" as possible. Time isnt really a factor, as the facility wont be ready until next year anyways. The only date that is set in stone is the grass planting date of late Sept.

With my "plan", I have two months set aside for dirt works. Even at conservative estimates on the Volvo 360, I dont think it will take more than 5-6 weeks.

Fuel will be delivered daily.

ksss
03-04-2011, 02:12 PM
Why not the pans?

I will also bet you have noticed an increase in the number of excavator "friends" you have since you came across this job.

18" inches of topsoil seems excessive to the extreme. Not sure how that facilitates drainage, especially if the soil is loamy or has clay in it.

DirtMedics
03-04-2011, 03:23 PM
To be honest, I have no experience with pans. Are you talking about a setup like this... http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=7637917& What kind of costs are associated with those? Is that something that I could do myself?

The reason behind using the 360 is it will not cost me anything other than fuel.

Also, we are just going by what the engineers for the drainage product specify. 18" of 3/8" screened dirt. I know it seems excessive, but after visiting a few sites where some used screened dirt and others didnt, the difference is eveident. The costs to screen the dirt now will be much less than the extra maintenance costs of not screening.

ksss
03-04-2011, 03:48 PM
To be honest, I have no experience with pans. Are you talking about a setup like this... http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=7637917& What kind of costs are associated with those? Is that something that I could do myself?

The reason behind using the 360 is it will not cost me anything other than fuel.

Also, we are just going by what the engineers for the drainage product specify. 18" of 3/8" screened dirt. I know it seems excessive, but after visiting a few sites where some used screened dirt and others didnt, the difference is eveident. The costs to screen the dirt now will be much less than the extra maintenance costs of not screening.

Yes, not likely your going to rent that set up with laser capability and be able to run it with some type of productivity. I suspect that subing out the majority of the work to someone with pans or scrapers would be able to knock out the majority of the project cheaper than you could even if your getting the 360 for free, as the excavator is only a portion of the need for the project. Perhaps getting some bids to see where this ends up price wise would be a good idea. This would let you know if your saving money by doing it yourself. If you wanted to do some of it. You could screen the needed soil and lay it out to grade. This would seem to be a solution. Have the pans stock pile the soil in several locations around the project and use the 360 to load the screener, Still likely need a truck and a dozer depending on how fast you can get the topsoil out to the project, you could likely get by with a finish dozer.

If 18" is what they want then so be it.

Scag48
03-04-2011, 11:05 PM
Scrapers are the most efficient way to move dirt, period. With that said, the conditions have to be right. If you're in mud, pans aren't the best option unless you're running tracked farm tractors or dozers pulling pans. Even then, production suffers in soft underfoot conditions.

AEL
03-05-2011, 07:22 PM
I would of recommended pans but the author had mentioned the material was wet. If there is no bid for this project, sub it out to a proffesional and you can make some money off the top and in the mean time learn the proper way to execute a project of this size.
Posted via Mobile Device

ksss
03-05-2011, 08:58 PM
I would of recommended pans but the author had mentioned the material was wet. If there is no bid for this project, sub it out to a proffesional and you can make some money off the top and in the mean time learn the proper way to execute a project of this size.
Posted via Mobile Device

I dont see where he mentioned anything about it being wet. It might be, but he has not said that.

DirtMedics
03-05-2011, 09:56 PM
I can see where TSS would think the material would be wet with what Dirtman was talking about with the water table. A big factor in that will be what time the project commences. We usually have a pretty wet spring, but it differs year to year. I am in the process of talking to a few people about the pans, but it is hard to find contractors in this area who use them.

As far as hiring it out, I dont want to do that. I am not doing this for an outside organization, I am doing it for me. All the other aspects of the complex have already been purchased by donations or grants. Consider the sitework as my "donation" to the project.

Let me rephrase the question this way. Consider ALL the following:

-Project has 3 months to be completed. Finishing quicker is a plus but not mandatory
-Volvo 360 has to be used. Already figure about $25K in fuel

ksss
03-06-2011, 04:28 PM
I can see where TSS would think the material would be wet with what Dirtman was talking about with the water table. A big factor in that will be what time the project commences. We usually have a pretty wet spring, but it differs year to year. I am in the process of talking to a few people about the pans, but it is hard to find contractors in this area who use them.

As far as hiring it out, I dont want to do that. I am not doing this for an outside organization, I am doing it for me. All the other aspects of the complex have already been purchased by donations or grants. Consider the sitework as my "donation" to the project.

Let me rephrase the question this way. Consider ALL the following:

-Project has 3 months to be completed. Finishing quicker is a plus but not mandatory
-Volvo 360 has to be used. Already figure about $25K in fuel


Beauty of the pans is one piece of equipment can excavate, grade, compact, transport and stock pile material. To do the same with an excavator requires haul trucks, and dozer. Add to the fact that the job is as spread out as it is, compounds the logistical challenges of the job. The issues of doing the job primarily with the excavator are not so much time but money. The costs of running a couple pans verse a couple months of an excavator, haul trucks and dozer will be far less.

Utimately you have to use what is available and what you feel comfortable with. If not pans certainly there must be some self propelled scraper contractors in your area.

DirtMedics
03-06-2011, 10:29 PM
Ok what you are saying about the scrapers is starting to make sense. After searching on that other equipment site, I am starting to see how productive scrapers are. Although it seems like the soil is a big factor in just how productive they are.

Would I need to compact the turf area? Since I wont be building anything on that area, is it necessary? I know that once the field is established compaction is a big enemy.

Scag48
03-06-2011, 11:25 PM
If you run scrapers, you'll get all the compaction you need for something like that. Adequate fill material can be compacted to at least 98% with scrapers running on the grade.

AEL
03-07-2011, 12:27 AM
No doubt about it scrapers are the cheapest way to move dirt, but if this site is right adjacent to a decnt sized river which obviously floods the said area ( or he wouldnt be building a dike) and hes planning on cutting 10-12 feet for his swm pond i would assume mud will be a problem. Now if he could get some case quadtracs, or cat challengers with pans it would be a whole different ball game...

ksss
03-07-2011, 05:49 PM
Yes I would agree that quad tracs would be ideal, don't know if he can find any, but those machines are incredible. I watched 10 of them with scrapers working a wildlife refuge in North Dakota about 5 years ago. Heavy wet loam and they were moving material like it was dry. It was like God had his own eraser on the job. I had never seen so much material moved in such a short time.


Its crazy how much compaction they create, I dont see that as an issue.

ksss
03-10-2011, 04:11 AM
There are numerous pans and scrapers going through on Iron Planet next Thursday. The Miskin Pans start at $4K they are in La. If you can find a suitable ag tractor to pull the pan you could maybe do it yourself. If you buy it right, you could do your job with the pan and then resell it and likely get most if not all your money back.

AEL
03-10-2011, 03:40 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NID88-CwV4w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ohprFNU0Js&feature=related