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View Full Version : Used Scag Turf Tiger or New Outlaw


luc78
03-10-2011, 02:43 PM
I wanted to get some feed back on a couple ZTRs. I am looking at a used 2006 Turf Tiger 61" w/27hp Kawi with 930hrs and the guy wants $5,200. It is a nice machine, well maintained is this worth the price? Or should I go with a new 2011 Bad Boy Outlaw 61" with 30hp Briggs Cyclonic pro for $6,800 out the door? I'm not sure about buying used since most are commercial and it isn't always the owner doing the mowing, but instead someone who doesn't care about the equipment as much

I have 6 acres with about 4 mow-able "for now", lots or trees ( a couple apple) and a couple larger hills. I will also use to pull de-thacher, utility bed, etc and maybe a couple lawns on the side.

Any thoughts?

MJB
03-10-2011, 04:11 PM
I wanted to get some feed back on a couple ZTRs. I am looking at a used 2006 Turf Tiger 61" w/27hp Kawi with 930hrs and the guy wants $5,200. It is a nice machine, well maintained is this worth the price? Or should I go with a new 2011 Bad Boy Outlaw 61" with 30hp Briggs Cyclonic pro for $6,800 out the door? I'm not sure about buying used since most are commercial and it isn't always the owner doing the mowing, but instead someone who doesn't care about the equipment as much

I have 6 acres with about 4 mow-able "for now", lots or trees ( a couple apple) and a couple larger hills. I will also use to pull de-thacher, utility bed, etc and maybe a couple lawns on the side.

Any thoughts? Thats a great price for the Outlaw. I'd go with new versus used. The Outlaw is great on hills too.

luc78
03-10-2011, 07:23 PM
Thanks! Anyone else out there?

Also came across a 2007 Lazer Z 60" with 23 Kohler & 900 hrs for $4,500 or a 2009 52" Hustler Mini Z with 300 hrs for $5k.

Is the Outlaw the best bang for the buck? That's what I am leaning towards

SouthSide Cutter
03-10-2011, 07:27 PM
Why are the other mowers close in price used to the BB new. That should tell you something.

luc78
03-10-2011, 07:33 PM
So I should assume that the other used mowers are better and hold their value? I have heard mainly good things about the Bad Boy, but the hrs on the used are what concerns me to some degree. I am new to this, so should I not be worried?

djagusch
03-10-2011, 07:50 PM
I would go scag for the dealer support. What dealers are in the area.
Posted via Mobile Device

MJB
03-10-2011, 09:08 PM
Thanks! Anyone else out there?

Also came across a 2007 Lazer Z 60" with 23 Kohler & 900 hrs for $4,500 or a 2009 52" Hustler Mini Z with 300 hrs for $5k.

Is the Outlaw the best bang for the buck? That's what I am leaning towards

Stick with the Outlaw, stay away from mini z not even in the same catagory as the others.The 2007 Exmark may have the earlier version of Triton deck which was garbage like the Hustlers XR7 was. I've owned all these mowers except the Turf Tiger. I would go with the Outlaw. Very comfortable compared to the rest, cuts almost as good as the others mentioned, better than Hustler. Pulls hills well, pulls aerators etc too. Just a very well built machine , and new the engine will last for 2500 hrs who knows when the used machines will need hydros, new engine, spindles, clutch etc etc.

The Outlaw is and will last longer than any used machine pushing 1000 hrs.

djagusch
03-10-2011, 09:32 PM
The Outlaw is and will last longer than any used machine pushing 1000 hrs.

I highly doubt that. The briggs engine won't outlast the kawi. The tt's proven design would be hard to outlast even with a 1k hr headstart.
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torotorotoro
03-10-2011, 09:39 PM
it would be better to just throw your $$$ away now and not wait till you pick up your new mower.where did you hear all the good things about the outlaw. as for me bb is the greatest mower in the history of mowing.

wall
03-10-2011, 09:59 PM
If you do not already have one get a tractor with a front end loader and blade or bushhog instead of a ztr. I have both and the tractor is used all the time,,,, ztr one day a week 4 months of the year. Just a thought.

luc78
03-11-2011, 12:20 AM
Heard good things about the outlaw and other Bad Boy's from these forums and a family member has a CZT and loves it. Thanks everyone & "Wall" that'd a good idea and 1 that already ran through my head.

Grass Shark
03-11-2011, 12:54 AM
I'd buy the scag

fier23
03-11-2011, 12:57 AM
Save yourself time and money with fixing used equipment and go with the outlaw. Go test it to make sure its the one. I love my lightning and will never look back.
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MJB
03-11-2011, 02:54 AM
I highly doubt that. The briggs engine won't outlast the kawi. The tt's proven design would be hard to outlast even with a 1k hr headstart.
Posted via Mobile Device

The Briggs should easily last 2000 to 2500 hrs where the Kawi might reach 3000 if your lucky before it start losing power. I know what the Outlaw is, and it's only weak link comparing it to the Turf Tiger is the deck. The Outlaw is not that far behind the Turf Tiger. Smoother ride and great on hills, very low profile, and the easiest access of any comercial mower if you need to work on it. Many people hate the BB due to it's origin built in the USA, BB is not perfect but it will easily do what he needs it to do, and it's one of the easiest to work on if that is concern.

TheOctagon
03-11-2011, 10:34 AM
The Briggs should easily last 2000 to 2500 hrs where the Kawi might reach 3000 if your lucky before it start losing power. I know what the Outlaw is, and it's only weak link comparing it to the Turf Tiger is the deck. The Outlaw is not that far behind the Turf Tiger. Smoother ride and great on hills, very low profile, and the easiest access of any comercial mower if you need to work on it. Many people hate the BB due to it's origin built in the USA, BB is not perfect but it will easily do what he needs it to do, and it's one of the easiest to work on if that is concern.

In 2006 would that TT be an advantage or a Velocity Plus?

luc78
03-11-2011, 02:36 PM
Thanks everyone! I just ordered the 61" Outlaw w/Gator Blades (Also got to keep originals) Hitch & Advanced Chute System all for a cool $7k. I think this is the right one, low, comfortable and powerful!

djagusch
03-11-2011, 03:58 PM
The Briggs should easily last 2000 to 2500 hrs where the Kawi might reach 3000 if your lucky before it start losing power. I know what the Outlaw is, and it's only weak link comparing it to the Turf Tiger is the deck. The Outlaw is not that far behind the Turf Tiger. Smoother ride and great on hills, very low profile, and the easiest access of any comercial mower if you need to work on it. Many people hate the BB due to it's origin built in the USA, BB is not perfect but it will easily do what he needs it to do, and it's one of the easiest to work on if that is concern.
You don't think the scag is built in the usa? Have you worked on a scag? The tt hillside ablity is outstanding. I don't think you have a clue on the tt.
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chesterlawn
03-11-2011, 04:41 PM
Sounds like another bad boy ad.

rwaters
03-11-2011, 05:16 PM
The Briggs should easily last 2000 to 2500 hrs where the Kawi might reach 3000 if your lucky before it start losing power. I know what the Outlaw is, and it's only weak link comparing it to the Turf Tiger is the deck. The Outlaw is not that far behind the Turf Tiger. Smoother ride and great on hills, very low profile, and the easiest access of any comercial mower if you need to work on it. Many people hate the BB due to it's origin built in the USA, BB is not perfect but it will easily do what he needs it to do, and it's one of the easiest to work on if that is concern.

that is not a briggs vanguard on the outlaw I am not so sure of the hours I would expect out of the engine. From what I can tell it is an upgraded intek. And the outlaw is equal to the cheetah as for transmission but not the turf tiger. The decks are opinion more then fact as to who is better. Also the Scag is built in the USA as well.

HenryB
03-11-2011, 05:27 PM
That 5400 Tranny looks pretty solid. I know people on this site are not fans of Bad Boy but that Outlaw looks very good. I've owned Turf Tigers, Lazers, Bobcat ZTR's, Toro, Deere's, Bunton, Hustler, Wright,Great Dane even Goodalls so I am speaking from experience . Way too much experience:laugh::laugh:

nepatsfan
03-11-2011, 05:33 PM
Sounds like another bad boy ad.
seems like it. He said all he read was good things about the bad boy. That is because every time someone posts a review that is bad about them...they are deleted.

TheOctagon
03-11-2011, 06:39 PM
Did you get the standard gator blades or the G6 gator blades? If you got the standards i would trade for the G6. They are far superior to the standards. High lift plus gator teeth, 1/4" thick, 3" wide, Fusion edge

rwaters
03-11-2011, 06:53 PM
Did you get the standard gator blades or the G6 gator blades? If you got the standards i would trade for the G6. They are far superior to the standards. High lift plus gator teeth, 1/4" thick, 3" wide, Fusion edge

I do not think they make the G6 for the outlaw yet.

TheOctagon
03-11-2011, 07:01 PM
I do not think they make the G6 for the outlaw yet.

oregon # 396-727

rwaters
03-11-2011, 07:24 PM
oregon # 396-727

well I did not know that blade fit the Outlaw. I was told the outlaw had a longer blade then the scag.

luc78
03-11-2011, 08:17 PM
How would you figure that all the bad reviews are deleted? Is it a conspiracy? I have researched, looked at almost every mower and feel that for a new mower the best deal "by far" is the bad boy! Watch out I heard the aliens are coming to take our plated some time in July!

TheOctagon
03-11-2011, 08:20 PM
well I did not know that blade fit the Outlaw. I was told the outlaw had a longer blade then the scag.

as of last year it was a 21" blade. I didnt hear of any changes this year so i am just assuming its the same.

MJB
03-11-2011, 09:28 PM
You don't think the scag is built in the usa? Have you worked on a scag? The tt hillside ablity is outstanding. I don't think you have a clue on the tt.
Posted via Mobile Device

I know TT are great on hills but I also know the Outlaw will go anywhere the TT will. If that was a new TT for $8000 I would tell him to demo both before making the purchase, but this is a used machine . Not bashing Scag, I do have a clue though, 20 yrs of seat time on ztr's gives me the right to my opinion .

MJB
03-11-2011, 09:38 PM
How would you figure that all the bad reviews are deleted? Is it a conspiracy? I have researched, looked at almost every mower and feel that for a new mower the best deal "by far" is the bad boy! Watch out I heard the aliens are coming to take our plated some time in July!

Congrats you made a good purchase! Expect negativity everytime you say something positive on Lawnsite about your Outlaw. Thats why I hardly come on here anymore. PM me if you have any questions after you get some seat time on it.

fier23
03-11-2011, 09:54 PM
How would you figure that all the bad reviews are deleted? Is it a conspiracy? I have researched, looked at almost every mower and feel that for a new mower the best deal "by far" is the bad boy! Watch out I heard the aliens are coming to take our plated some time in July!

Definitely take pics and post them. Looks good looking from their site.
Posted via Mobile Device

djagusch
03-11-2011, 10:16 PM
I know TT are great on hills but I also know the Outlaw will go anywhere the TT will. If that was a new TT for $8000 I would tell him to demo both before making the purchase, but this is a used machine . Not bashing Scag, I do have a clue though, 20 yrs of seat time on ztr's gives me the right to my opinion .

Ok but its a $5200 slightly used mower that the op says in good shape. If you have not owned a tt how do you "know" the outlaw will go everywhere the tt goes? 20yrs of not being on a scag means what, when comparing a tt to what you own? By the way how many hrs does your outlaw have on it?
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rwaters
03-11-2011, 10:22 PM
as of last year it was a 21" blade. I didnt hear of any changes this year so i am just assuming its the same.

I did not know that, oregon does not have a cross and I have never had anyone need blades for an outlaw so I did not know that.

torotorotoro
03-11-2011, 10:24 PM
How would you figure that all the bad reviews are deleted? Is it a conspiracy? I have researched, looked at almost every mower and feel that for a new mower the best deal "by far" is the bad boy! Watch out I heard the aliens are coming to take our plated some time in July!

bad reviews definatly get deleated.i have had so many post deleated that now every time i talk about bb i add that they are the greatest lawn mower in the history of lawn mowers. i quit using lawn site because they deleated everything i said bad about bb. i dont slam bb any more so i dont get deleated and it is alot more fun now.you can look at my name and know what mowers i run.

TheOctagon
03-11-2011, 10:32 PM
I did not know that, oregon does not have a cross and I have never had anyone need blades for an outlaw so I did not know that.

Its cool. I didnt mean to sound like a smarta$$.

rwaters
03-11-2011, 10:42 PM
Its cool. I didnt mean to sound like a smarta$$.

you did not sound like one to me at least, I honestly did not know that. I know it is not listed in any cross reference info from oregon. I also have a feeling I am not the only one who did not know that was the blade for the bad boy outlaw. I got out of bad boy when the outlaw came out, so I never sold them.

torotorotoro
03-11-2011, 10:46 PM
is the rest of this thread going to be about that set of blades. im surprised that is what is thought to be the most interesting thing said about the topic at hand. the last 2 pages are filled with you two going back and forth about a set of blades.those blades cant be that interesting.

TheOctagon
03-11-2011, 10:49 PM
you did not sound like one to me at least, I honestly did not know that. I know it is not listed in any cross reference info from oregon. I also have a feeling I am not the only one who did not know that was the blade for the bad boy outlaw. I got out of bad boy when the outlaw came out, so I never sold them.

Alright good deal. I had to pull one off to measure it and i got lucky enough that its the same as the scags which i also sell. Makes stockin blades easier. WHat did you replace Badboy with?

torotorotoro
03-11-2011, 10:55 PM
Alright good deal. I had to pull one off to measure it and i got lucky enough that its the same as the scags which i also sell. Makes stockin blades easier. WHat did you replace Badboy with?

why dont you guys privite message each other about those blades.

TheOctagon
03-11-2011, 10:57 PM
Relax toro it has to do w/ the outlaw so hush. Im sure the OP would want to know that the g6 blades are better as well as what size they are if they ever want to go elsewhere to get them later and that place doesnt know the size.

rwaters
03-11-2011, 10:57 PM
I will send you a pm about it.

StanWilhite
03-11-2011, 11:43 PM
Why are the other mowers close in price used to the BB new. That should tell you something.

SouthSide, finally someone who understands what I've been trying to tell people. The Bad Boy line of mowers is a much better value! Thanks for backing me up on that!
:waving:

rwaters
03-11-2011, 11:53 PM
SouthSide, finally someone who understands what I've been trying to tell people. The Bad Boy line of mowers is a much better value! Thanks for backing me up on that!
:waving:

Bad Boy is a value brand but some of the others are just as low as the bad boy. Bob-Cat for one is even a better value in a lot of cases.

MJB
03-12-2011, 01:13 AM
Ok but its a $5200 slightly used mower that the op says in good shape. If you have not owned a tt how do you "know" the outlaw will go everywhere the tt goes? 20yrs of not being on a scag means what, when comparing a tt to what you own? By the way how many hrs does your outlaw have on it?
Posted via Mobile Device

1000 hrs isn't slightly used by most companies. If it was a solo operator it might be slightly used. I've tried to get Scags up here but the Scag dealer won't stock them. I'm not laying down $13000 for TT without a demo.

Have you demoed an Outlaw? How do you know it won't go where the TT does? At least I've put it in some extreme situations where most mowers start slipping this one didn't. Can you point your TT straight downhill and creep down it without sliding? I can go where my HUstlers and Exmarks start sliding. I'm not knocking the Turf TigerI know it's good at sidehilling I've seen the pictures, but something is wrong with their dealer network when you can buy the same machine for less than 10 grand down south and $13000 around here plus I'd have to drive 2 or 3 hrs to get to a dealer. I called BB and they set 4 dealerships in my area in 1 season.

djagusch
03-12-2011, 03:04 AM
1000 hrs isn't slightly used by most companies. If it was a solo operator it might be slightly used. I've tried to get Scags up here but the Scag dealer won't stock them. I'm not laying down $13000 for TT without a demo.

Have you demoed an Outlaw? How do you know it won't go where the TT does? At least I've put it in some extreme situations where most mowers start slipping this one didn't. Can you point your TT straight downhill and creep down it without sliding? I can go where my HUstlers and Exmarks start sliding. I'm not knocking the Turf TigerI know it's good at sidehilling I've seen the pictures, but something is wrong with their dealer network when you can buy the same machine for less than 10 grand down south and $13000 around here plus I'd have to drive 2 or 3 hrs to get to a dealer. I called BB and they set 4 dealerships in my area in 1 season.
I'm not the one claiming anything on the outlaw side hill ablities am i. I have owned a super z and the tt runs over hills the super z cn only dream of. For the pricing the tt can be had for around $10k. Lastly looking at decks, design, and durablity I don't think the outlaw is in the same class as the tt. The tt is just built better and has bee for the last 13yrs. Not comparable to the cheetah either. The outlaw is comparable to a wildcat and that would be a good head to head debate.
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nepatsfan
03-12-2011, 08:03 AM
How would you figure that all the bad reviews are deleted? Is it a conspiracy? I have researched, looked at almost every mower and feel that for a new mower the best deal "by far" is the bad boy! Watch out I heard the aliens are coming to take our plated some time in July!

I see you just joined. BB is a sponsor, entire threads about them have been deleted for talking about them negatively. Call it a conspiracy, call it aliens or whatever you want. Threads that talk negatively about bad boy have been deleted several times and I really dont like it because you can't be objective about it but I understand. BB is a sponsor of the site and they pay a lot of money to be a sponsor. Guys who come on here and post join for free. I'm sure BB doesn't appreciate being slammed on here when they pay lots of money to be on here. Therefore when something negative comes up about BB, it is deleted. Just the way it is. Toro told you too....a hundred other people on here will also attest to it. If you want do a little test and see if your thread gets deleted. Start a thread BB Mowers and include something negative in the title, the thread will not last an hour before it is deleted. Honestly think about it though....what if people were allowed to make comments on your website and were slamming one of your customers...you would have to take it down right? Dont think for a second that BB mowers are perfect because you haven't read anything bad about them, it is propaganda.

TheOctagon
03-12-2011, 10:26 AM
I agree that badboy (as well as many other brands) have their flaws. I dont believe for a second that an objective well mannered post that was negative about badboy was deleted on here though. There were several threads on here that were deleted.... Yes i know that. I also can see why too. Its the random bashing from people who either A. Have never even ran one or B Have never even seen one besides a Tractor Supply ZT. I'm sure Badboy can take constructive comments negative or positive with no problems. ITs the Blind hatred towards them that i think is frowned upon. I will agree that when you get a badboy thread popping up every 3 days from a brand new member it can get a little annoying but hey we dont have to read it, we have the power to pass right over it and let it fall back into the pages.

nepatsfan
03-12-2011, 10:46 AM
I agree that badboy (as well as many other brands) have their flaws. I dont believe for a second that an objective well mannered post that was negative about badboy was deleted on here though. There were several threads on here that were deleted.... Yes i know that. I also can see why too. Its the random bashing from people who either A. Have never even ran one or B Have never even seen one besides a Tractor Supply ZT. I'm sure Badboy can take constructive comments negative or positive with no problems. ITs the Blind hatred towards them that i think is frowned upon. I will agree that when you get a badboy thread popping up every 3 days from a brand new member it can get a little annoying but hey we dont have to read it, we have the power to pass right over it and let it fall back into the pages.

The thing I have the biggest problem with is that if you are slamming another brand that is not a sponsor than it is not taken down. Again I understand the reasoning but it does not lead to objective discussions. The other fact you brought up is also legitimate about the new members coming on and posing as BB owners with legitamate reviews only to find out later that they were BB employees.(some admitted it later) As I said before no matter how you look at it, it is propaganda.

djagusch
03-12-2011, 10:51 AM
I agree that badboy (as well as many other brands) have their flaws. I dont believe for a second that an objective well mannered post that was negative about badboy was deleted on here though. There were several threads on here that were deleted.... Yes i know that. I also can see why too. Its the random bashing from people who either A. Have never even ran one or B Have never even seen one besides a Tractor Supply ZT. I'm sure Badboy can take constructive comments negative or positive with no problems. ITs the Blind hatred towards them that i think is frowned upon. I will agree that when you get a badboy thread popping up every 3 days from a brand new member it can get a little annoying but hey we dont have to read it, we have the power to pass right over it and let it fall back into the pages.

People can pass over the negative posts if they like also. Normally its newer members posting how great they are but have never owned another machine. They understand price and that is about it. Oh they know color also.
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TheOctagon
03-12-2011, 10:54 AM
People can pass over the negative posts if they like also. Normally its newer members posting how great they are but have never owned another machine. They understand price and that is about it. Oh they know color also.
Posted via Mobile Device

I agree w/ that as well. THe only thing is if you have never been on one how can you say that it in fact is not as good as they say. If a brand new person came on and posted about how great their new scag was you would be right on board. Rightfully so too because yes scag is an amazing brand. Just saying that without running one and knowing for sure you cant really dismiss their review as BS.

rwaters
03-12-2011, 11:00 AM
What seemed to be happening was you had most likely 1 dealership posting comments almost every day as a new person that went about the same they got a new bad boy mower and saved a ton of money and wanted to know why anyone would buy anything but a bad boy mower as they had done the research and bad boy mower were the perfect mower.

then you would have guys come in and say how bad bad boy mowers were that had never seen them other then maybe tractor supply bashing them and the company. it got to be a game for a short while. and I think it has hurt bad boy from being accepted on this site for a very long time. just remember everything you read on her could be false, a bad comment by a new person about a dealership could be the competition, a great comment about a brand or dealership from a new person could also be that dealership or brand... a guy claiming to be a mechanic might not even be qualified to change the oil in his machine. We do not know who types anything on here.

djagusch
03-12-2011, 11:13 AM
I agree w/ that as well. THe only thing is if you have never been on one how can you say that it in fact is not as good as they say. If a brand new person came on and posted about how great their new scag was you would be right on board. Rightfully so too because yes scag is an amazing brand. Just saying that without running one and knowing for sure you cant really dismiss their review as BS.

Been on their aos for a half day and the cut sucked. Unless they have many different deck designs (a sign that they don't have a good cutting deck by trying new things) I doubt it will cut much differently.

A guy with low ztr experience can't look at a mower and find the details that make the difference. He could be right on the review but if he hopped on another mower he most likely would say the same thing. Mjb has yrs of experience mentions made in usa in a post and ease of service. Does he know on a tt you don't need to get under the mower to change a belt? Only a 1/2 rachet is needed on all three. Does he know that the scag spindle is the same one since 95? It is the same because it works well while other mfgs change all the time because they have issues or go to lower cost spindles. They also can be replaced in the field with 2 wrenches even before 95. Does he know the aos mowers run their hydros near redline rpms to get their speed compared to others that are half that speed. How about the double tube frame compared to a super zs flexy frame. It goes on and on.
Posted via Mobile Device

djagusch
03-12-2011, 11:18 AM
What seemed to be happening was you had most likely 1 dealership posting comments almost every day as a new person that went about the same they got a new bad boy mower and saved a ton of money and wanted to know why anyone would buy anything but a bad boy mower as they had done the research and bad boy mower were the perfect mower.

then you would have guys come in and say how bad bad boy mowers were that had never seen them other then maybe tractor supply bashing them and the company. it got to be a game for a short while. and I think it has hurt bad boy from being accepted on this site for a very long time. just remember everything you read on her could be false, a bad comment by a new person about a dealership could be the competition, a great comment about a brand or dealership from a new person could also be that dealership or brand... a guy claiming to be a mechanic might not even be qualified to change the oil in his machine. We do not know who types anything on here.

Saving money on the purchase was always the key of the post. Most that have been in the biz operating costs and a good dealer are keys to running a good biz. Quality cut is also important. Lack of a good dealer network is what has hurt bb more than any post on here could do.
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HenryB
03-12-2011, 11:27 AM
Saving money on the purchase was always the key of the post. Most that have been in the biz operating costs and a good dealer are keys to running a good biz. Quality cut is also important. Lack of a good dealer network is what has hurt bb more than any post on here could do.
Posted via Mobile Device

Damn! You really like Scag. They should cut you a check.

nepatsfan
03-12-2011, 11:27 AM
One more thing to the original poster. I am going to post a link to a sponsors page here who is upset that bad comments about his business keep getting deleted. He wants a chance to defend himself but he can't because it keeps getting deleted. Check out page 32 if it doesn't come up automatically.

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=301456&page=32

rwaters
03-12-2011, 11:29 AM
Saving money on the purchase was always the key of the post. Most that have been in the biz operating costs and a good dealer are keys to running a good biz. Quality cut is also important. Lack of a good dealer network is what has hurt bb more than any post on here could do.
Posted via Mobile Device

I forgot another key thing was they were a homeowner or just getting started but could always answer a post about price of any badboy mower in the lineup quickly and were happy to do so. They were fake posts, I sold bad boy mowers and have many happy customers with them, I have even sold ztr mowers for 20 years and I never find a new customer that can remember or even cares about the prices of a full lineup. I am lucky if they remember the brand let alone the price I gave them on the 1 mower they were looking at. But you have to admit some of the threads that were deleted did get pretty bad and were uncalled for.

TheOctagon
03-12-2011, 12:30 PM
Been on their aos for a half day and the cut sucked. Unless they have many different deck designs (a sign that they don't have a good cutting deck by trying new things) I doubt it will cut much differently.

A guy with low ztr experience can't look at a mower and find the details that make the difference. He could be right on the review but if he hopped on another mower he most likely would say the same thing. Mjb has yrs of experience mentions made in usa in a post and ease of service. Does he know on a tt you don't need to get under the mower to change a belt? Only a 1/2 rachet is needed on all three. Does he know that the scag spindle is the same one since 95? It is the same because it works well while other mfgs change all the time because they have issues or go to lower cost spindles. They also can be replaced in the field with 2 wrenches even before 95. Does he know the aos mowers run their hydros near redline rpms to get their speed compared to others that are half that speed. How about the double tube frame compared to a super zs flexy frame. It goes on and on.
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Scag does have a pretty bulletproof design. The AOS you ran was one of the original designs from BB. It has since been eliminated in favor of the Outlaw series. Yes it is a different deck and yes it does cut better. Still not up to scag quality of cut but yes it is far far better than its predecessor. I dont know where you get your info on the pumps? I have never seen actual proof of that. Besides if they arent running hot what does it matter if you run them faster? Hydraulics need 2 things clean and cool fluid. Besides i have not read anything about pumps going bad on these machines so why do you even bring that up? Scag is a great mower no doubt about it. Very industrial and well assembled. They do however get a premium that some cant justify. Thats why i sell both these brands. I can honestly say the last 4 mowers i sold before the winter season went scag. Its all in what the person is looking for.

djagusch
03-12-2011, 01:47 PM
Scag does have a pretty bulletproof design. The AOS you ran was one of the original designs from BB. It has since been eliminated in favor of the Outlaw series. Yes it is a different deck and yes it does cut better. Still not up to scag quality of cut but yes it is far far better than its predecessor. I dont know where you get your info on the pumps? I have never seen actual proof of that. Besides if they arent running hot what does it matter if you run them faster? Hydraulics need 2 things clean and cool fluid. Besides i have not read anything about pumps going bad on these machines so why do you even bring that up? Scag is a great mower no doubt about it. Very industrial and well assembled. They do however get a premium that some cant justify. Thats why i sell both these brands. I can honestly say the last 4 mowers i sold before the winter season went scag. Its all in what the person is looking for.

I did the calc's on the hydro pumps back in the day when nosparkplugs was around. He was the aos cat billboard around ls back then. He always said they always have the same pumps etc? Well how did they get the speed then? By different pulley sizes running the pump at its max rpm by the mfg. Why does this matter? It shows two different design approaches, one i will design agressively or the other is conservitively. Which one would you want? Which one will last longer? How agressive were they with the rest of the design? How would it last.

Changing the design of the decks so quickly shows lack of r&d and knowledge of decks.
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TheOctagon
03-12-2011, 01:53 PM
I did the calc's on the hydro pumps back in the day when nosparkplugs was around. He was the aos cat billboard around ls back then. He always said they always have the same pumps etc? Well how did they get the speed then? By different pulley sizes running the pump at its max rpm by the mfg. Why does this matter? It shows two different design approaches, one i will design agressively or the other is conservitively. Which one would you want? Which one will last longer? How agressive were they with the rest of the design? How would it last.

Changing the design of the decks so quickly shows lack of r&d and knowledge of decks.
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With no sign of pumps failing i fail to see the problem? Also they havent changed the deck in years.... even scag has changed their deck before so dont feed me that line.

djagusch
03-12-2011, 01:56 PM
Damn! You really like Scag. They should cut you a check.

I have a good dealer for them. He also carries hustler, tried a timstar and super z, both were just not as good as the scag. There is a area approx 45miles from my house and the middle of my mowing area that needs a good commerical dealer. Hopefully in 2yrs ill be that dealer. I will carry scags.
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djagusch
03-12-2011, 02:06 PM
With no sign of pumps failing i fail to see the problem? Also they havent changed the deck in years.... even scag has changed their deck before so dont feed me that line.

You just said the outlaw has a new deck, did you not? Scag had the advanatge from 01 to 06 on all their mowers. 07 on they came out with the velocity decks. before 01 they had the same deck for a long time. Just seems like bb for the short time on the market has not kept the same stuff for a long time. Hustler for some reason has a ton of deck designs for different mowers if a 48 works on a wb it should work on a ztr.

Also with a one yr warranty and a lack of dealer network 4yrs ago how many hydro failures would you expect to here of? They are a pretty low volume co.
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TheOctagon
03-12-2011, 02:17 PM
You just said the outlaw has a new deck, did you not? Scag had the advanatge from 01 to 06 on all their mowers. 07 on they came out with the velocity decks. before 01 they had the same deck for a long time. Just seems like bb for the short time on the market has not kept the same stuff for a long time. Hustler for some reason has a ton of deck designs for different mowers if a 48 works on a wb it should work on a ztr.

Also with a one yr warranty and a lack of dealer network 4yrs ago how many hydro failures would you expect to here of? They are a pretty low volume co.
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the outlaw deck is basically the first full deck design change for probably at least the last 5 or more years. The outlaw is longer allowing for a wider front to back deck. It is the direction they are going. not tons of changes. Just one good change just like the advantage to the velocity. I dont know where you get your numbers but low volume is far from the truth. They move a ton of machines and no its not just what my rep has told me. i still want you to find the proof that the hydros arent up to par. Unless you can its just hearsay.

djagusch
03-12-2011, 02:37 PM
the outlaw deck is basically the first full deck design change for probably at least the last 5 or more years. The outlaw is longer allowing for a wider front to back deck. It is the direction they are going. not tons of changes. Just one good change just like the advantage to the velocity. I dont know where you get your numbers but low volume is far from the truth. They move a ton of machines and no its not just what my rep has told me. i still want you to find the proof that the hydros arent up to par. Unless you can its just hearsay.

For the hydros it is pure math. Speed of mower, dia of the wheel, volume of fluid the wheel motor needs to achieve that speed, take that volume against the pump displacement and you will find its rpm. Check it against the mfg specs and you will find it less than 200 rpms of its max limit. If you figure tire deflection or downhill speeds you are over the max. If you can't figure what I just said let's say our conversation is way over your head as it is basic math.
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nepatsfan
03-12-2011, 02:42 PM
For the hydros it is pure math. Speed of mower, dia of the wheel, volume of fluid the wheel motor needs to achieve that speed, take that volume against the pump displacement and you will find its rpm. Check it against the mfg specs and you will find it less than 200 rpms of its max limit. If you figure tire deflection or downhill speeds you are over the max. If you can't figure what I just said let's say our conversation is way over your head as it is basic math.
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Is it the diameter of the wheel or the tire?

TheOctagon
03-12-2011, 02:46 PM
For the hydros it is pure math. Speed of mower, dia of the wheel, volume of fluid the wheel motor needs to achieve that speed, take that volume against the pump displacement and you will find its rpm. Check it against the mfg specs and you will find it less than 200 rpms of its max limit. If you figure tire deflection or downhill speeds you are over the max. If you can't figure what I just said let's say our conversation is way over your head as it is basic math.
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i'm not saying that they are or are not running them at near max rpm. What i am saying is that even though you make this claim you have nothing to back up whether its affecting the life of the pump or motor. Dont try to belittle me with basic math im asking for facts that are affecting the life. Like i said its fine to run them at near max if you are keeping the fluid cool. Take off your horse blinders.

rwaters
03-12-2011, 02:50 PM
For the hydros it is pure math. Speed of mower, dia of the wheel, volume of fluid the wheel motor needs to achieve that speed, take that volume against the pump displacement and you will find its rpm. Check it against the mfg specs and you will find it less than 200 rpms of its max limit. If you figure tire deflection or downhill speeds you are over the max. If you can't figure what I just said let's say our conversation is way over your head as it is basic math.
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thats why the mowers do not go as fast as the stats say they will. but the rpms on the pumps from my math come out in tolerance. They might be higher then some companies run but they are within what hydrogear says they will do. You are also talking about a unit that is no longer in production so whats the point.

MJB
03-12-2011, 07:12 PM
I'm not the one claiming anything on the outlaw side hill ablities am i. I have owned a super z and the tt runs over hills the super z cn only dream of. For the pricing the tt can be had for around $10k. Lastly looking at decks, design, and durablity I don't think the outlaw is in the same class as the tt. The tt is just built better and has bee for the last 13yrs. Not comparable to the cheetah either. The outlaw is comparable to a wildcat and that would be a good head to head debate.
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I was quoted 12,800 a few yrs ago for a TT. The dealer says they just don't sell out here so he won't carry any in his shop. He generally has 20 new machines on hand with 3 different manufactures. This same dealer has great prices on every other brand he carries. Never understood the high price for TT when I've heard them sell as low $8000 in other areas.

The Cheetah and the TT look like a rattle trap with way to much weight, and metal , and very difficult to access pumps wheel motors etc compared to the Outlaw. The Outlaw is very solid and has a lower profile, and balanced pretty good for traction on hills. I've watched TT on hills and could see they sidehill well but not so good when pointing it downhill. I know the Velocity deck is a better deck , and the mower is dependable, but just not wanting Tiger Stripes on a lawn mower. To each his own. Simplicity, durability, and quality is what I look for in a mower, and have found it in Exmark Lazers, and BB Outlaws, just to mention a few.

torotorotoro
03-12-2011, 08:07 PM
I was quoted 12,800 a few yrs ago for a TT. The dealer says they just don't sell out here so he won't carry any in his shop. He generally has 20 new machines on hand with 3 different manufactures. This same dealer has great prices on every other brand he carries. Never understood the high price for TT when I've heard them sell as low $8000 in other areas.

The Cheetah and the TT look like a rattle trap with way to much weight, and metal , and very difficult to access pumps wheel motors etc compared to the Outlaw. The Outlaw is very solid and has a lower profile, and balanced pretty good for traction on hills. I've watched TT on hills and could see they sidehill well but not so good when pointing it downhill. I know the Velocity deck is a better deck , and the mower is dependable, but just not wanting Tiger Stripes on a lawn mower. To each his own. Simplicity, durability, and quality is what I look for in a mower, and have found it in Exmark Lazers, and BB Outlaws, just to mention a few.

this is the problem. you cant compare bb to any other comm mower. not by pumps, not by the cut, not by the duability, not by the warrenty, not by dealer support, not by guage of steal, not by comfort. to say cheetah is a rattle trap and the outlaw is solid is rediculas. bb are cheap. thats it.if you want to compare it to craftman then you have a debate. we all know whats going on here.i want to finish by adding bb are the greatest lawn mowers in the history of lawn mowing.

MJB
03-12-2011, 08:20 PM
this is the problem. you cant compare bb to any other comm mower. not by pumps, not by the cut, not by the duability, not by the warrenty, not by dealer support, not by guage of steal, not by comfort. to say cheetah is a rattle trap and the outlaw is solid is rediculas. bb are cheap. thats it.if you want to compare it to craftman then you have a debate. we all know whats going on here.i want to finish by adding bb are the greatest lawn mowers in the history of lawn mowing.

I would never buy the Cheetah until it's a proven proiduct. The more metal doesn't mean it's a better design. Once again you speak of something you know nothing about. I'm not comparing the BB box store version to the Outlaw either. You are comparing the bottom of the BB line to the top of Scags. You know nothing about the Outlaw except you hate it's wing. So it's junk because you say so, sorry but until you grow up and realize there is more than 1 way to skin a cat BB or Scag it makes no difference as long as the end user is happy. Yes the Scag rattles more so don't take it so personal..

nepatsfan
03-12-2011, 08:27 PM
I would never buy the Cheetah until it's a proven proiduct. The more metal doesn't mean it's a better design. Once again you speak of something you know nothing about. I'm not comparing the BB box store version to the Outlaw either. You are comparing the bottom of the BB line to the top of Scags. You know nothing about the Outlaw except you hate it's wing. So it's junk because you say so, sorry but until you grow up and realize there is more than 1 way to skin a cat BB or Scag it makes no difference as long as the end user is happy. Yes the Scag rattles more so don't take it so personal..

I wouldn't buy the BB until its a proven product either.

GMLC
03-12-2011, 08:29 PM
I'm going to tell you some advise my dad told me. Never ask a salesman what the best product is. They will sell you a piece of shi* in a box to make a buck. Ask the real experts. Someone who is not bias. When I bought my first commercial mower I asked the salesman to bring out there top mechanic. I asked that machanic what the best built mower was. He told me his honest opinion and I have been running that brand of mower since the early 90's. I suggest you find a mechanic with a lot of years and experience under his belt and ask them as well. After all they are the ones that see all the problems with these mowers. I have been a happy Scag owner ever since!
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torotorotoro
03-12-2011, 08:36 PM
I would never buy the Cheetah until it's a proven proiduct. The more metal doesn't mean it's a better design. Once again you speak of something you know nothing about. I'm not comparing the BB box store version to the Outlaw either. You are comparing the bottom of the BB line to the top of Scags. You know nothing about the Outlaw except you hate it's wing. So it's junk because you say so, sorry but until you grow up and realize there is more than 1 way to skin a cat BB or Scag it makes no difference as long as the end user is happy. Yes the Scag rattles more so don't take it so personal..

im a toro guy with back problems. i love my g3, but last summer i got to demo a cheetah for a day.it had two things i loved . speed and comfort. how it holds up in the long run is up for question. knowing scag im sure it will do just fine. i was comparing the top line outlaw to a tt.you need to compare it to craftman. i have never said anything about the wing. i dont know where you got that. i never said it was junk. its just not on the level of a real comm mower.lets keep the personal attacks out of this. we dont want to get the thread shut down. when i used the cheetah it was heavy but i did not notice any ratling, and that was with me going full speed and hitting bumps. i loved the platform and i hope toro steals the idea away from scag.

djagusch
03-12-2011, 10:47 PM
I wouldn't buy the BB until its a proven product either.

Funny how he said that but bought the unproven outlaw. The cheetah has the same wheel motors but with the optional 2sp. The cheetah shares the same double tube designed frame (tt), same replaceable front components (tiger cat, wildcat, tt), a rops that actually folds out of the way, same 31 hp kawi (outlaw), also a 34kawi or 32 vandguard, same deck and mounting (tt). The only ? Is the platform which uses a coil over shock, I wonder how long they have been made, almost forever.

After thinking about all that yep the cheetah is unproven machine from a company with many proven mowers. I should by the outlaw as it is so proven and most likely will be replaced in 4yrs like the aos.
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TheOctagon
03-12-2011, 10:51 PM
Funny how he said that but bought the unproven outlaw. The cheetah has the same wheel motors but with the optional 2sp. The cheetah shares the same double tube designed frame (tt), same replaceable front components (tiger cat, wildcat, tt), a rops that actually folds out of the way, same 31 hp kawi (outlaw), also a 34kawi or 32 vandguard, same deck and mounting (tt). The only ? Is the platform which uses a coil over shock, I wonder how long they have been made, almost forever.

After thinking about all that yep the cheetah is unproven machine from a company with many proven mowers. I should by the outlaw as it is so proven and most likely will be replaced in 4yrs like the aos.
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AOS has been around since BB's beginning in 1998. How long did the cougar last? Stop making bs comments without any knowledge. Cheap shots get you no where. Comment w/ facts and people will maybe listen to you.

HenryB
03-12-2011, 10:54 PM
After buying multiple Scag Turfrunners Scag has let out some disasters. That Cheetah looks great but I'm waiting at least a year for some feedback. Overall I like Scag a basic tank. I'd like to see more research and designs as far as improvements but they are real solid machines I'll give them that. THe pistol grips on their WB's really need something like Exmarks ECS. I admire that Badboy keeps improving their lineup.
It's funny you Scag fans are so ferocious I'm afraid to criticize them.

rwaters
03-12-2011, 10:57 PM
Funny how he said that but bought the unproven outlaw. The cheetah has the same wheel motors but with the optional 2sp. The cheetah shares the same double tube designed frame (tt), same replaceable front components (tiger cat, wildcat, tt), a rops that actually folds out of the way, same 31 hp kawi (outlaw), also a 34kawi or 32 vandguard, same deck and mounting (tt). The only ? Is the platform which uses a coil over shock, I wonder how long they have been made, almost forever.

After thinking about all that yep the cheetah is unproven machine from a company with many proven mowers. I should by the outlaw as it is so proven and most likely will be replaced in 4yrs like the aos.
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I agree with you about how the outlaw is proven... my questions about the cheetah are as follows and they are questions I do not know how they will hold up.

I still think the pumps and wheel motors will last longer then the ZT 5400 but it seems to be lasting longer then I would have thought

the cables for the control arms how long will they hold up or will they be a problem but I doubt that will be an expensive fix.

the suspension if it goes too fast it looks like the frame could be locked with little modification so that would not be a problem and honestly it is a nice design gotta hand that do them. But how will the deck take an impact at that speed.

djagusch
03-12-2011, 11:06 PM
AOS has been around since BB's beginning in 1998. How long did the cougar last? Stop making bs comments without any knowledge. Cheap shots get you no where. Comment w/ facts and people will maybe listen to you.

They only show manuals from 07 on their site, so do they just not have any customer service for customers prior to this? The company is as old as the tt it sounds like, but still compares its products to the tt.

The couger, turf runner ill say where bad mowers from the nineties. The also had a magnum (diesel sthm) and zcat (small ztr) that did last long but was more the market did not need them but the mowers performed well.

Do you disagree with the facts of parts the cheetah was made with? Are they all proven?
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djagusch
03-12-2011, 11:13 PM
I agree with you about how the outlaw is proven... my questions about the cheetah are as follows and they are questions I do not know how they will hold up.

I still think the pumps and wheel motors will last longer then the ZT 5400 but it seems to be lasting longer then I would have thought

the cables for the control arms how long will they hold up or will they be a problem but I doubt that will be an expensive fix.

the suspension if it goes too fast it looks like the frame could be locked with little modification so that would not be a problem and honestly it is a nice design gotta hand that do them. But how will the deck take an impact at that speed.


I was kidding on the outlaw being proven I hop you are also. The deck bouncing won't be an issue. The cables for the 2sp is something my dealer questioned before seeing them. Clipper mowers used cables back in the day and lasted 2 to 3 yrs before replacement. The scags are more heavy duty so should last even longer.
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retrodog
03-12-2011, 11:22 PM
You guys can't stand it when someone likes a bad boy, its ridiculous. I have a cheetah this weekend and am mowing side by side on an outlaw extreme. I bought a suspension platform off eBay to really get the correct feel for 159 to put on my law... i was gonna get a rops for 299, but out of over 400 bad boys i have only sold 2 so decided against it. both have 60" decks, 5400 trannys with the same protection bar, they look like Twinkies side by side. If I get enough nerve to handle all the negative crap I will get I will post my comparisons with pics. I can't find any difference in cut even in dreaded wet grass. The only major difference is the 2 speeds (which bb originally had but quickly canned before production), warranty (which i have seen first hand how companies try to wiggle out of claims, and how bb tries to wiggle ways to fix and do favors for folks), and the price. The 31 61 outlaw is 8159 with the suspension platform I found, and the cheetah was 11800. There is no way nearly 4000 difference in these machines, I guaranty if you were blindfolded, you wouldn't be able to tell a difference in cut or ride. Its funny, when I bought my first bad boy lightning as a commercial user I fully expected it not to hold up to my 13000 722d Hopper or my 10000 turf tiger honestly bought it as a back up mower when I did my big properties and needed a backup. A huge accident later and nearly 2000 hours later I have fully changed my mind, mowed my yard with the original this week...LOL. oh the Aos line was dropped due to volume, they sold the fire out of lightnings and diesels, but very few went in between and got the big frame gassers, a shame my favorite mower in the lineup, I bought the last three they had last year... its funny how a couple of good ole' Arkansas boys with deep pockets can stir up the mower world by building one of the toughest and simplest designed mowers for the lowest possible prices with a no bullcrap warranty when just about every claim you submit is somehow user negligence with every other freaking brand I have ever dealt with.....
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TheOctagon
03-12-2011, 11:45 PM
They only show manuals from 07 on their site, so do they just not have any customer service for customers prior to this? The company is as old as the tt it sounds like, but still compares its products to the tt.

The couger, turf runner ill say where bad mowers from the nineties. The also had a magnum (diesel sthm) and zcat (small ztr) that did last long but was more the market did not need them but the mowers performed well.

Do you disagree with the facts of parts the cheetah was made with? Are they all proven?
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I agree that the Cheetah should hold up well. I have seen first hand their r&d department. While i was there there was one machine twisting a frame, one cycling a cylinder on the suspension platform and one that was banging the deck up and down. The cables look like they are very heavy duty as well. Believe me i am in no way down playing Scag just pointing out facts about other brands.

TheOctagon
03-12-2011, 11:46 PM
You guys can't stand it when someone likes a bad boy, its ridiculous. I have a cheetah this weekend and am mowing side by side on an outlaw extreme. I bought a suspension platform off eBay to really get the correct feel for 159 to put on my law... i was gonna get a rops for 299, but out of over 400 bad boys i have only sold 2 so decided against it. both have 60" decks, 5400 trannys with the same protection bar, they look like Twinkies side by side. If I get enough nerve to handle all the negative crap I will get I will post my comparisons with pics. I can't find any difference in cut even in dreaded wet grass. The only major difference is the 2 speeds (which bb originally had but quickly canned before production), warranty (which i have seen first hand how companies try to wiggle out of claims, and how bb tries to wiggle ways to fix and do favors for folks), and the price. The 31 61 outlaw is 8159 with the suspension platform I found, and the cheetah was 11800. There is no way nearly 4000 difference in these machines, I guaranty if you were blindfolded, you wouldn't be able to tell a difference in cut or ride. Its funny, when I bought my first bad boy lightning as a commercial user I fully expected it not to hold up to my 13000 722d Hopper or my 10000 turf tiger honestly bought it as a back up mower when I did my big properties and needed a backup. A huge accident later and nearly 2000 hours later I have fully changed my mind, mowed my yard with the original this week...LOL. oh the Aos line was dropped due to volume, they sold the fire out of lightnings and diesels, but very few went in between and got the big frame gassers, a shame my favorite mower in the lineup, I bought the last three they had last year... its funny how a couple of good ole' Arkansas boys with deep pockets can stir up the mower world by building one of the toughest and simplest designed mowers for the lowest possible prices with a no bullcrap warranty when just about every claim you submit is somehow user negligence with every other freaking brand I have ever dealt with.....
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I was planning on doing this same thing this summer. Please Please Please do this.

retrodog
03-12-2011, 11:46 PM
You guys can't stand it when someone likes a bad boy, its ridiculous. I have a cheetah this weekend and am mowing side by side on an outlaw extreme. I bought a suspension platform off eBay to really get the correct feel for 159 to put on my law... i was gonna get a rops for 299, but out of over 400 bad boys i have only sold 2 so decided against it. both have 60" decks, 5400 trannys with the same protection bar, they look like Twinkies side by side. If I get enough nerve to handle all the negative crap I will get I will post my comparisons with pics. I can't find any difference in cut even in dreaded wet grass. The only major difference is the 2 speeds (which bb originally had but quickly canned before production), warranty (which i have seen first hand how companies try to wiggle out of claims, and how bb tries to wiggle ways to fix and do favors for folks), and the price. The 31 61 outlaw is 8159 with the suspension platform I found, and the cheetah was 11800. There is no way nearly 4000 difference in these machines, I guaranty if you were blindfolded, you wouldn't be able to tell a difference in cut or ride. Its funny, when I bought my first bad boy lightning as a commercial user I fully expected it not to hold up to my 13000 722d Hopper or my 10000 turf tiger honestly bought it as a back up mower when I did my big properties and needed a backup. A huge accident later and nearly 2000 hours later I have fully changed my mind, mowed my yard with the original this week...LOL. oh the Aos line was dropped due to volume, they sold the fire out of lightnings and diesels, but very few went in between and got the big frame gassers, a shame my favorite mower in the lineup, I bought the last three they had last year... its funny how a couple of good ole' Arkansas boys with deep pockets can stir up the mower world by building one of the toughest and simplest designed mowers for the lowest possible prices with a now bullcrap warranty that just about every claim you submit is somehow user negligence.....
Posted via Mobile Device

MJB
03-13-2011, 03:23 AM
Funny how he said that but bought the unproven outlaw. The cheetah has the same wheel motors but with the optional 2sp. The cheetah shares the same double tube designed frame (tt), same replaceable front components (tiger cat, wildcat, tt), a rops that actually folds out of the way, same 31 hp kawi (outlaw), also a 34kawi or 32 vandguard, same deck and mounting (tt). The only ? Is the platform which uses a coil over shock, I wonder how long they have been made, almost forever.

After thinking about all that yep the cheetah is unproven machine from a company with many proven mowers. I should by the outlaw as it is so proven and most likely will be replaced in 4yrs like the aos.
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I look at things from a different standpoint some of you might appreciate. No matter what mower I buy I do most of my own repairs because otherwise I have to haul my machines Scag, Hustler, Exmark, GHopper, Toro etc etc at least 100 miles for repairs. Only the Bad Boy has good dealer within 5 miles of me.

With that being said the Cheetah even though I like the carriage, the thought of working on that machine would be a headache. I like ease of access to the pump, wheel motors etc. I went with the Outlaw because I know I can fix or repair anything on the Outlaw very easy. I love the swing out gas tanks, and easy access to everything.

Thats why I was not afraid of buying the Outlaw, there is nothing that can't be repaired easily and the parts come faster than any other brands I've owned. So try to understand it from my standpoint , I have no dealer support from Scag or any other brand except BB and JD.

Not everyone has access to good dealer Scag or whatever, so Scag is not as appealing to me thats why I've never seen one on any trailers in 15 yrs. I was the last one to own a Scag in my city 14 yrs ago.

Huling
03-13-2011, 12:58 PM
You guys can't stand it when someone likes a bad boy, its ridiculous. I have a cheetah this weekend and am mowing side by side on an outlaw extreme. I bought a suspension platform off eBay to really get the correct feel for 159 to put on my law... i was gonna get a rops for 299, but out of over 400 bad boys i have only sold 2 so decided against it. both have 60" decks, 5400 trannys with the same protection bar, they look like Twinkies side by side. If I get enough nerve to handle all the negative crap I will get I will post my comparisons with pics. I can't find any difference in cut even in dreaded wet grass. The only major difference is the 2 speeds (which bb originally had but quickly canned before production), warranty (which i have seen first hand how companies try to wiggle out of claims, and how bb tries to wiggle ways to fix and do favors for folks), and the price. The 31 61 outlaw is 8159 with the suspension platform I found, and the cheetah was 11800. There is no way nearly 4000 difference in these machines, I guaranty if you were blindfolded, you wouldn't be able to tell a difference in cut or ride. Its funny, when I bought my first bad boy lightning as a commercial user I fully expected it not to hold up to my 13000 722d Hopper or my 10000 turf tiger honestly bought it as a back up mower when I did my big properties and needed a backup. A huge accident later and nearly 2000 hours later I have fully changed my mind, mowed my yard with the original this week...LOL. oh the Aos line was dropped due to volume, they sold the fire out of lightnings and diesels, but very few went in between and got the big frame gassers, a shame my favorite mower in the lineup, I bought the last three they had last year... its funny how a couple of good ole' Arkansas boys with deep pockets can stir up the mower world by building one of the toughest and simplest designed mowers for the lowest possible prices with a no bullcrap warranty when just about every claim you submit is somehow user negligence with every other freaking brand I have ever dealt with.....
Posted via Mobile Device

What brand of "suspension platform? Do you mean a Michigan suspension type seat? Just trying to clarify in my mind. Thanks.

nepatsfan
03-13-2011, 01:02 PM
This is a better comparison for the outlaw.

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202338861/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

retrodog
03-13-2011, 01:24 PM
This is a better comparison for the outlaw.

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202338861/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

1230lbs versus 700lbs, thats funny. 3400 tranny, and 31hp kawasaki is cheap for $5000 even just for the components, but the beast looks pretty beastly....lol Your funny man nothing about that speaks rugged, tough or commercial....sorry

torotorotoro
03-13-2011, 03:10 PM
You guys can't stand it when someone likes a bad boy, its ridiculous. I have a cheetah this weekend and am mowing side by side on an outlaw extreme. I bought a suspension platform off eBay to really get the correct feel for 159 to put on my law... i was gonna get a rops for 299, but out of over 400 bad boys i have only sold 2 so decided against it. both have 60" decks, 5400 trannys with the same protection bar, they look like Twinkies side by side. If I get enough nerve to handle all the negative crap I will get I will post my comparisons with pics. I can't find any difference in cut even in dreaded wet grass. The only major difference is the 2 speeds (which bb originally had but quickly canned before production), warranty (which i have seen first hand how companies try to wiggle out of claims, and how bb tries to wiggle ways to fix and do favors for folks), and the price. The 31 61 outlaw is 8159 with the suspension platform I found, and the cheetah was 11800. There is no way nearly 4000 difference in these machines, I guaranty if you were blindfolded, you wouldn't be able to tell a difference in cut or ride. Its funny, when I bought my first bad boy lightning as a commercial user I fully expected it not to hold up to my 13000 722d Hopper or my 10000 turf tiger honestly bought it as a back up mower when I did my big properties and needed a backup. A huge accident later and nearly 2000 hours later I have fully changed my mind, mowed my yard with the original this week...LOL. oh the Aos line was dropped due to volume, they sold the fire out of lightnings and diesels, but very few went in between and got the big frame gassers, a shame my favorite mower in the lineup, I bought the last three they had last year... its funny how a couple of good ole' Arkansas boys with deep pockets can stir up the mower world by building one of the toughest and simplest designed mowers for the lowest possible prices with a now bullcrap warranty that just about every claim you submit is somehow user negligence.....
Posted via Mobile Device

its not that we cant stand it . its the fact that we know the sub quality of these mowers and a couple of bad boy dealers with the help of a few people who just dont know any better get on here and say they are the second comming. we seen the mowers,we used the mowers,we dont like them.and we care enough about our fellow lco that we dont want to see them make a $7500 mistake we know they will regret. those arkansas boys are ripping people off who dont know any better.if you want a cheep mower then bb is a good mower for you.just know that that is what you are getting.dont buy it and think it is on the same level as toro or scag.there is a place for bb in the market just not on my trailer , or any one serious about a mowing career. i have never had any problems getting toro to cover warrenty issues including belts

torotorotoro
03-13-2011, 03:17 PM
I look at things from a different standpoint some of you might appreciate. No matter what mower I buy I do most of my own repairs because otherwise I have to haul my machines Scag, Hustler, Exmark, GHopper, Toro etc etc at least 100 miles for repairs. Only the Bad Boy has good dealer within 5 miles of me.

With that being said the Cheetah even though I like the carriage, the thought of working on that machine would be a headache. I like ease of access to the pump, wheel motors etc. I went with the Outlaw because I know I can fix or repair anything on the Outlaw very easy. I love the swing out gas tanks, and easy access to everything.

Thats why I was not afraid of buying the Outlaw, there is nothing that can't be repaired easily and the parts come faster than any other brands I've owned. So try to understand it from my standpoint , I have no dealer support from Scag or any other brand except BB and JD.

Not everyone has access to good dealer Scag or whatever, so Scag is not as appealing to me thats why I've never seen one on any trailers in 15 yrs. I was the last one to own a Scag in my city 14 yrs ago.

i can understand your situation and see thet you enjoy working on your bb. but most us have dealers around us and choose to spend our time mowing not working on equipment. your situation is different out there in the sticks.but you should not push this mower to lco who live in city. for the $ it is not a good investment for someone who has long term goals.

torotorotoro
03-13-2011, 03:19 PM
oh yeah i forgot to add bb is the greatest mower in the history of mowing.

MJB
03-13-2011, 03:22 PM
its not that we cant stand it . its the fact that we know the sub quality of these mowers and a couple of bad boy dealers with the help of a few people who just dont know any better get on here and say they are the second comming. we seen the mowers,we used the mowers,we dont like them.and we care enough about our fellow lco that we dont want to see them make a $7500 mistake we know they will regret. those arkansas boys are ripping people off who dont know any better.if you want a cheep mower then bb is a good mower for you.just know that that is what you are getting.dont buy it and think it is on the same level as toro or scag.there is a place for bb in the market just not on my trailer , or any one serious about a mowing career. i have never had any problems getting toro to cover warrenty issues including belts

How long have you made a career out of mowing, that should makes me want to take advice from you?

I have made a career of mowing, and I can make good money using just about any brand, and last yr I actually made more money than the previous yrs and guess what I used a BB Outlaw and it worked. But I'm sure it was a fluke after listening to you that just can't happen again.

Maybe I should give up Toro Toro Toro has set me straight...:hammerhead: and he has like 3 yrs of experience....my career is over:cry:

torotorotoro
03-13-2011, 03:36 PM
How long have you made a career out of mowing, that should makes me want to take advice from you?

I have made a career of mowing, and I can make good money using just about any brand, and last yr I actually made more money than the previous yrs and guess what I used a BB Outlaw and it worked. But I'm sure it was a fluke after listening to you that just can't happen again.

Maybe I should give up Toro Toro Toro has set me straight...:hammerhead: and he has like 3 yrs of experience....my career is over:cry:

i started when i was 20 and now i an 35.im sure in your situationit is a good fit.you are happy working on your bb and you dont have much choice because of your location. but in the city you can buy a exmark for $9000.use it for a few years and sell it for $5000. or you can keep it longer and run it in the ground. my oldest z-500 has over 3000 hrs on it .it only goes 8 mph so i dont use it much anymore. these are options bb owners dont have.you save a few thousand on the purchase price, but lose way more on the back end. remember all the time you spend fixing your mowers you may be saving $ but you are not making any. im sure you will make plenty of $$ next year and i am sure it was not a fluke.

MJB
03-13-2011, 03:50 PM
i started when i was 20 and now i an 35.im sure in your situationit is a good fit.you are happy working on your bb and you dont have much choice because of your location. but in the city you can buy a exmark for $9000.use it for a few years and sell it for $5000. or you can keep it longer and run it in the ground. my oldest z-500 has over 3000 hrs on it .it only goes 8 mph so i dont use it much anymore. these are options bb owners dont have.you save a few thousand on the purchase price, but lose way more on the back end. remember all the time you spend fixing your mowers you may be saving $ but you are not making any. im sure you will make plenty of $$ next year and i am sure it was not a fluke.

I will see how it goes but so far downtime is not an issue with any of my mowers. But parts are slow for Exmark, compared to BB. I keep all my mowers until they reach 4000 hrs in general. The only 2 that did not make that are Hustler Super Z and Toro (looked like a Walker) don't remember what it was called I think it was the Toro Nightmare. Could not access anything and was always broke down.

Seriously don't hate on the Outlaw so much, it's a lot better machine than you realize. I've never run any other BB but the Outlaw, it easily compares to Exmark, and surpasses it bigtime in traction and comfort. At 4000 hrs none of these brands are worth much over $1500 if there still running. So time will tell but it has done everything every other mower I've owned has, and surpassed most so the only thing in question really is it's durability.

torotorotoro
03-13-2011, 04:04 PM
I will see how it goes but so far downtime is not an issue with any of my mowers. But parts are slow for Exmark, compared to BB. I keep all my mowers until they reach 4000 hrs in general. The only 2 that did not make that are Hustler Super Z and Toro (looked like a Walker) don't remember what it was called I think it was the Toro Nightmare. Could not access anything and was always broke down.

Seriously don't hate on the Outlaw so much, it's a lot better machine than you realize. I've never run any other BB but the Outlaw, it easily compares to Exmark, and surpasses it bigtime in traction and comfort. At 4000 hrs none of these brands are worth much over $1500 if there still running. So time will tell but it has done everything every other mower I've owned has, and surpassed most so the only thing in question really is it's durability.

when i need parts my dealers almost allways have them.when you run a real comm mower chances are there are alot of other people who do too. so the dealers stock the most common things.in omaha there are at least 6 big scag dealers in town .two with werehouses full of parts and new mowers.the toro distributership for the whole midwest is here. the only bb guy left in town is a crook and shares his shop with two small lawn services.i could only imagine dealing with that loser.im sure the real dealers in town could get the parts but you will have to wait for shipping causing more downtime.i will add 2 more things. bb is not commercial and you should not compare it like one.also bb is the greatest mower in history of mowing

HenryB
03-13-2011, 04:16 PM
when i need parts my dealers almost allways have them.when you run a real comm mower chances are there are alot of other people who do too. so the dealers stock the most common things.in omaha there are at least 6 big scag dealers in town .two with werehouses full of parts and new mowers.the toro distributership for the whole midwest is here. the only bb guy left in town is a crook and shares his shop with two small lawn services.i could only imagine dealing with that loser.im sure the real dealers in town could get the parts but you will have to wait for shipping causing more downtime.i will add 2 more things. bb is not commercial and you should not compare it like one.also bb is the greatest mower in history of mowing

Man lighten up! Some people like Badboy and you don't. This guy MJB has been on Lawnsite since 2000 he has some great posts I'd guess he's the real deal a pro. Your love and devotion to Scag and Toro is admireable but take it easy on the guy. The Outlaw looks like a great ZTR and I've owned them all.

torotorotoro
03-13-2011, 04:40 PM
Man lighten up! Some people like Badboy and you don't. This guy MJB has been on Lawnsite since 2000 he has some great posts I'd guess he's the real deal a pro. Your love and devotion to Scag and Toro is admireable but take it easy on the guy. The Outlaw looks like a great ZTR and I've owned them all.

what are you talking about. i have been polite and have addressed only the issues that have been brouhgt up. i have not engaged in name calling or belittling because i do not want thread to be deleated. i do not currently own a scag. he brought up a point about bb parts and i refuted it with facts politely. you have drank the bb kool aid more power to you. i want to inform others before they make the same mistake

GordonwJackson
03-13-2011, 05:25 PM
1230lbs versus 700lbs, thats funny. 3400 tranny, and 31hp kawasaki is cheap for $5000 even just for the components, but the beast looks pretty beastly....lol Your funny man nothing about that speaks rugged, tough or commercial....sorry

The 62" Z-BEAST actually weighs in at 1250 lbs. The Home Depot listing is in error. Maybe it will be fixed Monday. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

Yes, 31hp Kawasaki, Peerless hydros, 62" 7 gauge deck, 22" rear tires, 15" front tires, 10+ mph forward speed. $4999 ...give it a try before you knock it, you might be surprised.

nepatsfan
03-13-2011, 05:48 PM
The 62" Z-BEAST actually weighs in at 1250 lbs. The Home Depot listing is in error. Maybe it will be fixed Monday. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

Yes, 31hp Kawasaki, Peerless hydros, 62" 7 gauge deck, 22" rear tires, 15" front tires, 10+ mph forward speed. $4999 ...give it a try before you knock it, you might be surprised.

What do you have to say to that retrodog. Seems like he has pretty much the same arguments you guys have about your bad boys. In fact....with that spoiler on there and all the extra crap it makes the beast a lot beefier than the outlaw. For people that purchase their mowers strictly on price their may just be a new dog in the fight. A beast sounds a lot more rugged than a bad boy.

torotorotoro
03-13-2011, 05:50 PM
The 62" Z-BEAST actually weighs in at 1250 lbs. The Home Depot listing is in error. Maybe it will be fixed Monday. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

Yes, 31hp Kawasaki, Peerless hydros, 62" 7 gauge deck, 22" rear tires, 15" front tires, 10+ mph forward speed. $4999 ...give it a try before you knock it, you might be surprised.

we have and we dont. the problem withgetting the speed you want with the smaller cc pumps that you rev to the limit is when you mow under a heavy load or try to go up steep hills the mower cant take it . under both conditions not only will your mower slow to a crawl but sometimes stall.and yes you do shorten the life span of the hydros but they should last as long as the rest of the mower.this is why other brands go to the larger cc pumps. they go right up hills. full speed,bbs dont. now try to tell us they do. bad boys are the greatest mowers in the history of mowing.

GordonwJackson
03-13-2011, 06:02 PM
we have and we dont. the problem withgetting the speed you want with the smaller cc pumps that you rev to the limit is when you mow under a heavy load or try to go up steep hills the mower cant take it . under both conditions not only will your mower slow to a crawl but sometimes stall.and yes you do shorten the life span of the hydros but they should last as long as the rest of the mower.this is why other brands go to the larger cc pumps. they go right up hills. full speed,bbs dont. now try to tell us they do. bad boys are the greatest mowers in the history of mowing.

Just so I understand, Torotorotoro, you have tested a BEAST mower and it ran out of power going up a hill and in thick grass? I have not seen this problem myself. Please elaborate. I have driven this mower a lot (hills, ditches, thick grass (bermuda), long grass) and not seen this problem.

On the contrary, it can pop wheelies on flat ground with little effort if you do a full controls deflection. I have tested a lot of mowers and only few have enough torque to do this.

Please explain / describe your BEAST mower testing.

I appreciate your feedback.

rwaters
03-13-2011, 06:24 PM
Just so I understand, Torotorotoro, you have tested a BEAST mower and it ran out of power going up a hill and in thick grass? I have not seen this problem myself. Please elaborate. I have driven this mower a lot (hills, ditches, thick grass (bermuda), long grass) and not seen this problem.

On the contrary, it can pop wheelies on flat ground with little effort if you do a full controls deflection. I have tested a lot of mowers and only few have enough torque to do this.

Please explain / describe your BEAST mower testing.

I appreciate your feedback.

I think he was talking about badboy not the BEAST I doubt many commercial cutters have tried the mower as home depot does not allow demos. nor does every store even have them. I am impressed you have a guy online defending the mower though. I would expect that only out of a company with a dealer network to care about the opinion of a mower.

but you might want to test more mowers as EVERY commercial grade zero turn mower I have ever tested would pop wheelies other then the ATZ and it was not a torq problem.

Hawkshot99
03-13-2011, 06:32 PM
what are you talking about. i have been polite and have addressed only the issues that have been brouhgt up. i have not engaged in name calling or belittling because i do not want thread to be deleated. i do not currently own a scag. he brought up a point about bb parts and i refuted it with facts politely. you have drank the bb kool aid more power to you. i want to inform others before they make the same mistake

Since you seem to know how crappy they are and you want others to not make the mistake of buying one, what model have you owned and personally experienced all of these problems?

You are very persistent for someone who has no interest in what others use.

I will admit I have never used a BB as I have no use for a Zero Turn currently, but have looked over a Lightning, Pup and AOS Diesel quite a bit. They were just as heavy duty looking as the Exmarks and Scags I have seen. I have only RUN Exmarks and Scags personally though.

StanWilhite
03-13-2011, 06:33 PM
Bad Boy is a value brand but some of the others are just as low as the bad boy. Bob-Cat for one is even a better value in a lot of cases.


You're exactly right about Bob Cat being a quality "great bang for the buck" mower, and Bob Cat's warranty is certainly the longest one that I'm aware of in the entire industry....and in some cases, that alone can save the owner thousands! Before I bought my BB I had narrowed my selection down to BB or Bob Cat.

But, for me personally, there were several factors that steered me toward BB. Lower initial cost compared to most others of similar quality, full quarter inch thick deck, patented "swing out" tanks for ease of maintenance, and a suspension system.

However, the most important single factor in my decision to buy a BB is the fact that I have a BB dealer that is only 1 1/2 miles down the road from me. From the time I get in my truck, it takes me a whopping 2 minutes to get to the dealers front door.

But as I've said, I looked at, and ran, a whole lotta different mowers before buying, and there is a long list of mowers that i think most anyone would be happy with. While some folks favor some, and other folks favor others, most all of the "commercial" units I'm aware of are quality machines that are up to the challenge of mowing day in and day out with very little problems.

rwaters
03-13-2011, 06:43 PM
However, the most important single factor in my decision to buy a BB is the fact that I have a BB dealer that is only 1 1/2 miles down the road from me. From the time I get in my truck, it takes me a whopping 2 minutes to get to the dealers front door.

If you have a good dealer that can service or repair your machine then you made a good choice. I try not to say any mower brand is junk, yes I have issues with some designs and some parts used, but that does not say that the total brand is junk. Every mower has problems that is why you need a dealer network to get parts and service in case the repair is over your head. Remember the average technician at a shop will see more problems in a day then you will in a year. a good shop is a good resource.

torotorotoro
03-13-2011, 06:43 PM
Just so I understand, Torotorotoro, you have tested a BEAST mower and it ran out of power going up a hill and in thick grass? I have not seen this problem myself. Please elaborate. I have driven this mower a lot (hills, ditches, thick grass (bermuda), long grass) and not seen this problem.

On the contrary, it can pop wheelies on flat ground with little effort if you do a full controls deflection. I have tested a lot of mowers and only few have enough torque to do this.

Please explain / describe your BEAST mower testing.

I appreciate your feedback.

i was talking about the outlaw. i am sure that you have not mowed professionally. everride had a fast ground speed mower and had the same problem bb has. popping a wheelie on flat ground has nothing to do with it .every mower i have ever owned can do it .it is one thing to drive around a parking lot of bb headquarters and another thing to mow for a living.is bb paying you over time for every post you make. if they would put out a product that was good they would not have to hire a full time staff to defend their mower on line. let the market decide how good it is .we all know that bb employees start these threads. bb employees defend these mowers and only a small number of newbies fall for this. you are not fooling anyone and you do more harm to yourself with your 23 post opinion.

StanWilhite
03-13-2011, 06:51 PM
its not that we cant stand it . its the fact that we know the sub quality of these mowers and a couple of bad boy dealers with the help of a few people who just dont know any better get on here and say they are the second comming. we seen the mowers,we used the mowers,we dont like them.and we care enough about our fellow lco that we dont want to see them make a $7500 mistake we know they will regret. those arkansas boys are ripping people off who dont know any better.if you want a cheep mower then bb is a good mower for you.just know that that is what you are getting.dont buy it and think it is on the same level as toro or scag.there is a place for bb in the market just not on my trailer , or any one serious about a mowing career. i have never had any problems getting toro to cover warrenty issues including belts

Toro, since all ZTRs are a compilation of similiar components, for a mower to be subpar it must have inferior components. Just for my clarification, what makes an Outlaw, or Lightning a cheap mower? Exactly what components are inferior? And please be very specific, I really need to know this for my next purchase. Thank you in advance.

nepatsfan
03-13-2011, 06:55 PM
i was talking about the outlaw. i am sure that you have not mowed professionally. everride had a fast ground speed mower and had the same problem bb has. popping a wheelie on flat ground has nothing to do with it .every mower i have ever owned can do it .it is one thing to drive around a parking lot of bb headquarters and another thing to mow for a living.is bb paying you over time for every post you make. if they would put out a product that was good they would not have to hire a full time staff to defend their mower on line. let the market decide how good it is .we all know that bb employees start these threads. bb employees defend these mowers and only a small number of newbies fall for this. you are not fooling anyone and you do more harm to yourself with your 23 post opinion.
You realize that beast is a brand of mower that home depot sells now. He doesn't work for BB, he works for BEAST a different brand

torotorotoro
03-13-2011, 06:57 PM
Since you seem to know how crappy they are and you want others to not make the mistake of buying one, what model have you owned and personally experienced all of these problems?

You are very persistent for someone who has no interest in what others use.

I will admit I have never used a BB as I have no use for a Zero Turn currently, but have looked over a Lightning, Pup and AOS Diesel quite a bit. They were just as heavy duty looking as the Exmarks and Scags I have seen. I have only RUN Exmarks and Scags personally though.

a dealer had one he lent out as he fixed one of my mowers. he took it in on trade and has not sold it in over a year. i used it for 3 days. i just hate to see conmen try to take advantage of people who dont know any better.i took it out and it was the longest 3 days of mowing in my life. it stalled on hills it slowed down in thick grass. it was very fast on flat ground. how do you get on bb payroll. i could use a little exrta $$ in the winter .look i can do it too.bb is the greatest mower in history of mowing

TheOctagon
03-13-2011, 07:00 PM
a dealer had one he lent out as he fixed one of my mowers. he took it in on trade and has not sold it in over a year. i used it for 3 days. i just hate to see conmen try to take advantage of people who dont know any better.i took it out and it was the longest 3 days of mowing in my life. it stalled on hills it slowed down in thick grass. it was very fast on flat ground. how do you get on bb payroll. i could use a little exrta $$ in the winter .look i can do it too.bb is the greatest mower in history of mowing

What mower was it that he traded in? How long ago was this?

StanWilhite
03-13-2011, 07:04 PM
i was talking about the outlaw. i am sure that you have not mowed professionally. everride had a fast ground speed mower and had the same problem bb has. popping a wheelie on flat ground has nothing to do with it .every mower i have ever owned can do it .it is one thing to drive around a parking lot of bb headquarters and another thing to mow for a living.is bb paying you over time for every post you make. if they would put out a product that was good they would not have to hire a full time staff to defend their mower on line. let the market decide how good it is .we all know that bb employees start these threads. bb employees defend these mowers and only a small number of newbies fall for this. you are not fooling anyone and you do more harm to yourself with your 23 post opinion.

So you're saying that anyone who likes a BB has to be a BB employee? No one could possibly like BB unless he was being paid to do so?
I guess, by using this reasoning, we can also assume that anyone who likes any other brand has got to be employed by them too? How long have you been employed by Toro?

StanWilhite
03-13-2011, 07:13 PM
If you have a good dealer that can service or repair your machine then you made a good choice. I try not to say any mower brand is junk, yes I have issues with some designs and some parts used, but that does not say that the total brand is junk. Every mower has problems that is why you need a dealer network to get parts and service in case the repair is over your head. Remember the average technician at a shop will see more problems in a day then you will in a year. a good shop is a good resource.

I'm like you, I can be happy with my eqp selection and also be happy for other people even though they made another choice. It's really childish and petty when someone can't....and it says a lot about them.

There's an old saying, "you can always tell a kid....you just can't tell them much".

I'm out of this thread, can't stand any more "you are.....no you are....I know you are, but what am I"? :walking: :waving:

GordonwJackson
03-13-2011, 08:38 PM
i was talking about the outlaw. i am sure that you have not mowed professionally.

Mr. Torotortoro...

First, I do work for a mower manufacturer mentioned earlier in this thread, not the BB mower.

Second, you are right I don't sit in a mower seat all day, every day. I spend more time behind a desk and in an airplane seat! I appreciate your feedback and opinions...if they are knowledgeable and thoughtful.

Third, for the past eight years I have studied every nut, bolt, tube, bearing, weld, belt and bushing on every mower I could get my hands on. This was done to get actual test and cost data. The world is too competitive to be successful making technical and cost decisions based upon opinions. I have personally been involved in hundreds (maybe thousands) of mower and component tests. Opinions and marketing materials are often in conflict with the facts when you collect test data.

Fourth, lifting a front wheel to someone in the south does not represent a wheelie! We turned the torque down, it was originally too high. If torque is too high it becomes a pain in the ass on delicate wet grass, leaving tire marks during zero turns. Popping wheelies (3' of air under the front tires) is a good indicator of excess torque available for hill climbing. :) I have not seen any hill climbing problems or dense grass problems on our mowers and this is all we test in (we always are looking for worst case). Wheelie bars would look funny, so we turned it down! Maybe in the future we increase rear tire size and turn the torque up?

Fifth, hydro displacement is not the PRIMARY factor affecting excess torque. Other factors such as wheel diameter, hydro input pulley speed, and weight and balance of the mower affect excess torque more.

Sixth, hydro durability is affected by order of importance: oil cleanliness; barrel and valve body metallurgy; and main bearing quality. All else being equal (which they never are) higher displacement pumps and motors can reduce pressures and wear...but this is not the best way to judge hydro longevity. It would be erroneous to assume a 20cc pump will outlast a 12cc pump based purely on displacement. You would have to look at a lot of details before you could make a proclamation like that.

I became active on this site because I see lots of mis-information. When it affects our products, I feel compelled to challenge the mistakes.

My input to improve this site is more talk about mowers people like because they use them and they advocate the merits of their favorite mower...and less talk and speculating about mowers people have never tried or features they have not tested. If one contractor wants to pay $10k for his view of the best mower and another thinks he would rather buy two $5k mowers...who says who is making the right decision? If the guy buying the two $5k mowers competes with you and and his uptime is better than you are guessing...you may have a pretty tough competitor on your hands. Maybe you should be asking about this possibility more since it is maybe a threat to your competitiveness some day.

Also, please be thoughtful that there are many bright homeowners, engineers, and industry professions out there. Landscapers' opinions, although valuable (you do sit in the seat all day), are not always the final word on any given subject. Others may have valuable, thoughtful input as well...and you may learn something from them.

Questioning the value of someone's input based upon the number of posts made on this site makes little sense. Try and explain that one? You think the only knowledgeable people on mowers are long time bloggers on this site?

Just some thoughts...

Keep the feedback coming.

rwaters
03-13-2011, 09:22 PM
Keep the feedback coming.

just a question why did you go the box store route instead of the servicing dealer?

torotorotoro
03-13-2011, 09:37 PM
So you're saying that anyone who likes a BB has to be a BB employee? No one could possibly like BB unless he was being paid to do so?
I guess, by using this reasoning, we can also assume that anyone who likes any other brand has got to be employed by them too? How long have you been employed by Toro?

what have i said about toro. a good product speaks for itself

MJB
03-13-2011, 09:37 PM
when i need parts my dealers almost allways have them.when you run a real comm mower chances are there are alot of other people who do too. so the dealers stock the most common things.in omaha there are at least 6 big scag dealers in town .two with werehouses full of parts and new mowers.the toro distributership for the whole midwest is here. the only bb guy left in town is a crook and shares his shop with two small lawn services.i could only imagine dealing with that loser.im sure the real dealers in town could get the parts but you will have to wait for shipping causing more downtime.i will add 2 more things. bb is not commercial and you should not compare it like one.also bb is the greatest mower in history of mowing

You just don't get it, or don't listen. I'm not even in the sticks I have Scag dealers around within 70 to 100 miles, same with all of them. But when I call any of these dealers I generally have to wait for them to order the part before I can go pick it up. For instance I needed a throttle cable for a 2008 Exmark took them 2 weeks to get it in so I could pick it up.

Scag, Toro, Exmark are all under the same roof. I consider this dealer a jerk big time. Does that mean his equipment is junk? You base your argument against BB on a dealer that you don't like.
Also you mention you got a loner once that was a BB but fail to mention which yr and model it was, so there again wheres your proof? You keep saying the Outlaw isn't commercial, comparing it to a Craftsman. Obviously you know little about equipment. All I've owned is commercial equipment for 20 yrs. 2 Walkers, 1 Scag Walk behind, 2 GHoppers 721 and 725, 2 Exmark Lazer Z's, 1Gravely 260, 1 Hustler Super Z, and a $9000 Toro nightmare, and now the Outlaw. The Outlaw is as commercial as they get. The Hustler Super Z and the Toro were lemons , bad designs, and believe me the Outlaw is refreshing after battling with those 2 junkers.

I think I know the difference between commercial and residential but obviously you don't.

torotorotoro
03-13-2011, 09:41 PM
You realize that beast is a brand of mower that home depot sells now. He doesn't work for BB, he works for BEAST a different brand

i have been talking about bb outlaw. i assumed that we all were too.

GordonwJackson
03-13-2011, 09:42 PM
just a question why did you go the box store route instead of the servicing dealer?

It is a strategic decision how and where to position products. Some versions of GXi's power equipment are targeted at dealers, some at mass retailers.

The BEAST mower line is exclusive to The Home Depot and was designed with their input over the past 4 years.

GMLC
03-13-2011, 09:44 PM
I agree with torotorotoro. "Hundreds maybe thousands" of lab tests and staged real word tests don't even touch the thousands and thousands of hours us professionals do. Numbers, stats, videos and similar specs don't make a good mower. They may impress a homeowner or a know it all but not a professional. I need a battle tested machine with as little down time as possible. If I had to wait for Home Depot to fix my mower for a week I would have lost thousands of dollars, flushing any savings down the toilet. My business, family and clients depend on my mowers. The beast may be a great value mower but I need the Porsche of mowers. You can put a Porsche engine and trans in a KIA but its still not a Porshce.
Posted via Mobile Device

rwaters
03-13-2011, 09:55 PM
It is a strategic decision how and where to position products. Some versions of GXi's power equipment are targeted at dealers, some at mass retailers.

The BEAST mower line is exclusive to The Home Depot and was designed with their input over the past 4 years.

ok I went to look at the mower and could not find all of the specs I have also never seen a peerless commercial zero turn setup is the mower a pump and wheel motor system or a integrated drive such as the ZT 3400

Also why the 62" wouldn't that make blades hard to get?

rwaters
03-13-2011, 09:57 PM
i have been talking about bb outlaw. i assumed that we all were too.

no GordonwJackson is talking about the Beast mower for home depot. and StanWilhite is talking about the lightning in my opinion a far better mower then the outlaw.

torotorotoro
03-13-2011, 10:00 PM
You just don't get it, or don't listen. I'm not even in the sticks I have Scag dealers around within 70 to 100 miles, same with all of them. But when I call any of these dealers I generally have to wait for them to order the part before I can go pick it up. For instance I needed a throttle cable for a 2008 Exmark took them 2 weeks to get it in so I could pick it up.

Scag, Toro, Exmark are all under the same roof. I consider this dealer a jerk big time. Does that mean his equipment is junk? You base your argument against BB on a dealer that you don't like.
Also you mention you got a loner once that was a BB but fail to mention which yr and model it was, so there again wheres your proof? You keep saying the Outlaw isn't commercial, comparing it to a Craftsman. Obviously you know little about equipment. All I've owned is commercial equipment for 20 yrs. 2 Walkers, 1 Scag Walk behind, 2 GHoppers 721 and 725, 2 Exmark Lazer Z's, 1Gravely 260, 1 Hustler Super Z, and a $9000 Toro nightmare, and now the Outlaw. The Outlaw is as commercial as they get. The Hustler Super Z and the Toro were lemons , bad designs, and believe me the Outlaw is refreshing after battling with those 2 junkers.

I think I know the difference between commercial and residential but obviously you don't.

sorry .if i had to drive 70 to 100 miles to get to a dealer i would do it in house as well. bb works for you great. i have not come across the parts problem you have either. i do not base my poor bb opinion on the bad dealer here in town. i base it on there poor product. i dont know how old the outlaw was but it was a low hours machine. also had a wing. i have also looked into them on line and at conventions and at home shows. i may not be the expert but i think they are junk. they are cheep junk but still junk. but even bb has a place in the marketplace. just dont misrepresent what it is you people are selling.

GordonwJackson
03-13-2011, 10:00 PM
I agree with torotorotoro. "Hundreds Posted via Mobile Device

So do you think a good mower should not be designed well, tested thoroughly, and benchmarked against its competition?

I would suggest that the above is necessary, but not sufficient.

It is the feedback of thousands of happy owners that proves a mower met its objectives. It helps everyone to read reviews of actual mower owners and users.

Not every car appeals to eveyrbody and not every mower appeals to everybody...just look at all the discussion on this site as a testement to that!

Does that mean you should make dispariging remarks about a product you have not tested or even seen? How does that help others on this blog?

Why not focus on the virtues of the mowers you do like and have had experience with rather than comment negatively on mowers you do not and have not tried?

MJB
03-13-2011, 10:04 PM
sorry .if i had to drive 70 to 100 miles to get to a dealer i would do it in house as well. bb works for you great. i have not come across the parts problem you have either. i do not base my poor bb opinion on the bad dealer here in town. i base it on there poor product. i dont know how old the outlaw was but it was a low hours machine. also had a wing. i have also looked into them on line and at conventions and at home shows. i may not be the expert but i think they are junk. they are cheep junk but still junk. but even bb has a place in the marketplace. just dont misrepresent what it is you people are selling.

What year did you get the loaner BB? What model and I will leave you alone????????

torotorotoro
03-13-2011, 10:04 PM
I agree with torotorotoro. "Hundreds maybe thousands" of lab tests and staged real word tests don't even touch the thousands and thousands of hours us professionals do. Numbers, stats, videos and similar specs don't make a good mower. They may impress a homeowner or a know it all but not a professional. I need a battle tested machine with as little down time as possible. If I had to wait for Home Depot to fix my mower for a week I would have lost thousands of dollars, flushing any savings down the toilet. My business, family and clients depend on my mowers. The beast may be a great value mower but I need the Porsche of mowers. You can put a Porsche engine and trans in a KIA but its still not a Porshce.
Posted via Mobile Device

glad to see someone get it. i will look back, how did we start talking about the beast mower brand

torotorotoro
03-13-2011, 10:12 PM
What year did you get the loaner BB? What model and I will leave you alone????????

its no problem. it was last summer. what is with all the question marks. you said you had a lemon toro and i asked you nothing about it.why. because a good product doesnt need a cheering section. the original poster said he has never read anything bad about bb. there are a few of us not on the bb payroll who would like to set the record streight. feel free to post.

MJB
03-13-2011, 10:22 PM
its no problem. it was last summer. what is with all the question marks. you said you had a lemon toro and i asked you nothing about it.why. because a good product doesnt need a cheering section. the original poster said he has never read anything bad about bb. there are a few of us not on the bb payroll who would like to set the record streight. feel free to post.

Just because it has a spoiler does not make it an Outlaw. The way you've held back from answering me and others directly makes me doubt most of what you say. There were several residential mowers with spoilers that would make sense why you think they are junk. The Outlaw was very hard to get all last yr so highly question your getting one as a loaner. Selling as fast as they came out in most areas.
You probably had a CZT home owner version which comes in all sizes, which is a great residential mower but not commercial..

StanWilhite
03-13-2011, 10:23 PM
what have i said about toro. a good product speaks for itself

The reason you've said nothing about "Toro" (other than actually posting it 3 times as your sign on name) is because no one came on here attacking the "Toro" brand name. I'm just curious as to what you'd have to say if anyone had made comments about "Toro" that you've said about Bad Boy.
Hmmmmm....think you might have come to "Toro's" defense?

torotorotoro
03-13-2011, 10:24 PM
So do you think a good mower should not be designed well, tested thoroughly, and benchmarked against its competition?

I would suggest that the above is necessary, but not sufficient.

It is the feedback of thousands of happy owners that proves a mower met its objectives. It helps everyone to read reviews of actual mower owners and users.

Not every car appeals to eveyrbody and not every mower appeals to everybody...just look at all the discussion on this site as a testement to that!

Does that mean you should make dispariging remarks about a product you have not tested or even seen? How does that help others on this blog?

Why not focus on the virtues of the mowers you do like and have had experience with rather than comment negatively on mowers you do not and have not tried?

im sorry i am missing the point. should a guy buy a used comm mower or get a new bb.what does a beast mower have to do with it. and why is a guy who does not mow for a living telling me what to think.

torotorotoro
03-13-2011, 10:28 PM
The reason you've said nothing about "Toro" (other than actually posting it 3 times as your sign on name) is because no one came on here attacking the "Toro" brand name. I'm just curious as to what you'd have to say if anyone had made comments about "Toro" that you've said about Bad Boy.
Hmmmmm....think you might have come to "Toro's" defense?

i may add my two cents. so do you want to compare toro/exmark to bb.

nepatsfan
03-13-2011, 10:33 PM
im sorry i am missing the point. should a guy buy a used comm mower or get a new bb.what does a beast mower have to do with it. and why is a guy who does not mow for a living telling me what to think.

I mentioned way back in the thread that retrodog should compare BB to the BEAST instead of the scag. The mowers are more similar. This is how it came up. Take a look at it. It looks like a BB without the spoiler and it's cheap. Same concept.

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202338861/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

StanWilhite
03-13-2011, 10:52 PM
i may add my two cents. so do you want to compare toro/exmark to bb.

In my opinion, dollar for dollar, Toro doesn't make a machine that can compare to a BB Lightning....period.

As for the statement about seat time (in itself) making someone more qualified to judge the quality of a mower, think about this.

In the old days when farmers plowed with mules, the mules spent just as much time in the field with the plow as the farmer. Does that mean the mule's opinion is as accurate, and therefore should carry as much weight as the farmers? After all, he DID spend just as much time in the field with the plow.

TheOctagon
03-13-2011, 11:24 PM
Toro im still waiting for you to tell us what machine you ran that was a BB then we can decide if what you know about bb is fair to use as judgement against toro/exmark. Remember you may have just ran a homeowner machine like a zt. No one seems to know except you and you wont tell.

rwaters
03-13-2011, 11:36 PM
Toro im still waiting for you to tell us what machine you ran that was a BB then we can decide if what you know about bb is fair to use as judgement against toro/exmark. Remember you may have just ran a homeowner machine like a zt. No one seems to know except you and you wont tell.

I think in an earlier post he said it was an AOS.

luc78
03-13-2011, 11:45 PM
I'll tell you what I have been looking for a ZTR for a while now, new or used and I don;t see many used bad boys some turf tigers for sale. I see a lot of the other brands and if they are all so good why is everyone selling them with 1000 to 1,500 hrs while they still work perfect? Most say they just want to upgrade or it's time for a new mower. Why upgrade if they work and are not in the shop all the time? The reason is that they will all break and the ones that last "no matter which brand" are well care for machines. It's the owner and operator, not just the machine.

TheOctagon
03-13-2011, 11:57 PM
[QUOTE=rwaters;3937439]I think in an earlier post he said it was an AOS.[/QUOTE

Oh i thought he had a wing on his??? Who knows.

MJB
03-14-2011, 01:10 AM
I'll tell you what I have been looking for a ZTR for a while now, new or used and I don;t see many used bad boys some turf tigers for sale. I see a lot of the other brands and if they are all so good why is everyone selling them with 1000 to 1,500 hrs while they still work perfect? Most say they just want to upgrade or it's time for a new mower. Why upgrade if they work and are not in the shop all the time? The reason is that they will all break and the ones that last "no matter which brand" are well care for machines. It's the owner and operator, not just the machine.

We have a winner ! Well said.

MJB
03-14-2011, 01:25 AM
a dealer had one he lent out as he fixed one of my mowers. he took it in on trade and has not sold it in over a year. i used it for 3 days. i just hate to see conmen try to take advantage of people who dont know any better.i took it out and it was the longest 3 days of mowing in my life. it stalled on hills it slowed down in thick grass. it was very fast on flat ground. how do you get on bb payroll. i could use a little exrta $$ in the winter .look i can do it too.bb is the greatest mower in history of mowing

This comment proves it was not the Outlaw.. He took it on trade and has not sold it in over a year. The Outlaw was just released last yr, there is no way it could have been traded in and sat for a year. Case closed just ignore his anti BB out burst from now on.

MJB
03-14-2011, 01:32 AM
sorry .if i had to drive 70 to 100 miles to get to a dealer i would do it in house as well. bb works for you great. i have not come across the parts problem you have either. i do not base my poor bb opinion on the bad dealer here in town. i base it on there poor product. i dont know how old the outlaw was but it was a low hours machine. also had a wing. i have also looked into them on line and at conventions and at home shows. i may not be the expert but i think they are junk. they are cheep junk but still junk. but even bb has a place in the marketplace. just dont misrepresent what it is you people are selling.

For those who got lost, here is where he implied it was an Outlaw. I knew he was not telling the truth.