PDA

View Full Version : thoughts on ConExpo


ksss
03-25-2011, 06:07 PM
Just got back, still downloading and consolidating photos, most I will likely put on my Facebook page. Couple things I noticed

1. The Chinese are becoming a player in the Heavy Equipment market. At the 08 show Sany had a small postage stamp of a lot. This time huge, complete line including cranes. I checked a lot of these companies out. Their fit and finish is getting better and better. Obviously don't know how they run but if the visual signs of quality build construction are any indication, they are making a run at it.

2. Don't know who the marketing guy is at NH but the guy is genius. There were some very attractive girls dancing and helping to intro products and when their show started everybody gathered around to watch. Pretty impressive display. That blue skid steer was way cool.

3. This my 4th show and it was obvious there are fewer contractors and venders at this one. Still a lot of people there but not what I have seen in years past.

4. Vegas is struggling. Half done concrete foundations of future buildings which have stood since 08 they are in forclosure. One in five homes for sale Bad deal.

5. The CASE skid steers have E/H from the top to the bottom of the new line up. Either they made a mistake or changed their minds from earlier but you can have it either way E/H or manual controls.

6. Deeres big surprise was kinda weak I thought.

7. TK is now releasing the 153 with variable displacement at the aux. with improved GPM production finally. They had a smaller display than last time.

8. CASE put on a cool party at Caesar's. Tried to empty the place of Jack Daniels but they had more then I could drink, took a little while to realize that however.

9. ASV's skid steer needs a little more work I think. Nothing huge but the entry into the cab is ridiculous, they have the hyd ports on the tilt cylinders in such a place that they will certainly get sheared off, just things like that which jumped out at me. I talked with Terex guys, very cool.

All in all good times. Got some ideas, made some contacts and got tons of info. Even won a couple hundred on the Roulette wheel.

icex
03-25-2011, 07:10 PM
Deeres release was weak and overhyped. Everyone was like WTF when they unveiled the chatterbox. (watched it live on their site)

ksss
03-25-2011, 07:16 PM
Deeres release was weak and overhyped. Everyone was like WTF when they unveiled the chatterbox. (watched it live on their site)

That Chatter Box thing that Deere had was interesting. I was wondering if someone was editing some of that or if they just let it roll.

stuvecorp
03-25-2011, 07:48 PM
Good to hear on the E/H controls for Case. That is good on the TK153 but sucks to own the old one...

bobcat_ron
03-25-2011, 08:22 PM
OK so who came home with an extra wife or maybe a divorce?

Dirtman2007
03-25-2011, 08:41 PM
I loved the asains that were going around taking pictures of all the new deere and cat equipment so they can copy it and make a new copycat machine. I laughed my ass off when the deere guy slammed the door shut so one couldnt get a picture of the pumps

farm_boy
03-25-2011, 08:45 PM
What the funny thing about Deere and the chatterbox is that it brought people to the booth and while they were there, oh by the way they unveiled the largest loader and ADT that company has ever produced. It did it's job and is STILL doing it's job b/c everyone is still talking about it. I applaud Deere for using something clever like this to get people to the booth without the need to hire hookers to walk around or have stupid circus side shows.
Posted via Mobile Device

ksss
03-25-2011, 09:35 PM
I am not knocking the chatter box thing. It was a clever idea. The sideshift backhoe was lame in the sense they over promised and under delivered. Classic marketing mistake. The largest ADT that they don't produce you mean to say? They paint it and decal it. Bell makes it. The loader is most likely made by Liebber, but I not sure on that.

The Chinese have made a living reverse engineering practically everything they produce from our fighter aircraft to heavy equipment. They are good at
it and getting better, we spend the money on R&D and they rip it.

Digdeep
03-25-2011, 09:38 PM
What's the big difference between drawing people to a booth with a chatterbox, dancing backhoes or real hot strippers???? Not really much because all three are just some form of marketing designed to stir conversation or catch the attention of someone walking by.

The funny thing to me is that most of the guys that go out to ConExpo will visit the Deere booth anyway and the strippers cost way less than the marketing hype that Deere developed for their marketing.
Posted via Mobile Device

bobcat_ron
03-25-2011, 09:41 PM
The funny thing to me is that most of the guys that go out to ConExpo will visit the Deere booth anyway and the strippers cost way less than the marketing hype that Deere developed for their marketing.
Posted via Mobile Device


And the strippers will give you a good lap dance inside the Deere Chatterbox.

ksss
03-25-2011, 09:51 PM
OK so who came home with an extra wife or maybe a divorce?



Same wife but dam my ribs are sore. Even with my blacked out Oakleys she could see my eyes fall out of my head. Got to the point she would poke me before I even saw the half clad hotties.

Jim385
03-25-2011, 10:05 PM
The largest ADT that they don't produce you mean to say? They paint it and decal it. Bell makes it. The loader is most likely made by Liebber, but I not sure on that.


From what I've heard from others, the rock truck isn't a Bell. That loader is definitely all Deere, I think the only wheeled loaders in Deere's line that may have at one time (or still are) made by someone else was the two smallest ones. The new 755k is 100% as well, no longer a liebherr like the previous models.

ksss
03-25-2011, 10:23 PM
From what I've heard from others, the rock truck isn't a Bell. That loader is definitely all Deere, I think the only wheeled loaders in Deere's line that may have at one time (or still are) made by someone else was the two smallest ones. The new 755k is 100% as well, no longer a liebherr like the previous models.


If Bell doesn't build this ADT then it would be interesting to know who does. However the point was that Deere doesn't. Your point is taken on the loader. I was thinking about their dozer line and not the wheel loader my bad.

farm_boy
03-26-2011, 12:13 AM
If Bell doesn't build this ADT then it would be interesting to know who does. However the point was that Deere doesn't. Your point is taken on the loader. I was thinking about their dozer line and not the wheel loader my bad.

Just a clarifying point. The only machines in Deere's booth that wasn't designed and built in a Deere factory was the 470G and 1050J.
Posted via Mobile Device

alco
03-26-2011, 01:36 AM
If Bell doesn't build this ADT then it would be interesting to know who does. However the point was that Deere doesn't. Your point is taken on the loader. I was thinking about their dozer line and not the wheel loader my bad.

The older Deere trucks were designed and built by Bell, then Deere started manufacturing them themselves to Bell's designs. The new truck has no Bell influence in it. Deere both designed, and builds the new truck. It's definitely not built by someone else.

As for the dozer line, if you check into it you'll find that Deere builds all of them except the two largest models, the 950 and 1050, and that will most likely be brought in house in the near future.

Digdeep
03-26-2011, 01:57 PM
Just a clarifying point. The only machines in Deere's booth that wasn't designed and built in a Deere factory was the 470G and 1050J.
Posted via Mobile Device

Did Deere have any mini-ex's in their booth? If so, they were built by Airman and not Deere.

ksss
03-26-2011, 03:01 PM
It looks like as of Thursday 117K people had been through the gates in Vegas. Guess we will see what the final numbers are. They say that 25% are from outside the U.S. which is a record. You can gleen for yourself what that means.

hvy 1ton
03-26-2011, 04:32 PM
I loved the asains that were going around taking pictures of all the new deere and cat equipment so they can copy it and make a new copycat machine. I laughed my ass off when the deere guy slammed the door shut so one couldnt get a picture of the pumps

That was awesome. Then there was the little guy trying to peel off cat stickers.

Tigerotor77W
03-27-2011, 12:40 AM
I loved the asains that were going around taking pictures of all the new deere and cat equipment so they can copy it and make a new copycat machine. I laughed my ass off when the deere guy slammed the door shut so one couldnt get a picture of the pumps

Edit: this isn't directed at you directly, Dirtman -- it's just a response to the thought of copy-catting in general. To put it bluntly, while there continues to be a large amount of copy-cating, you are sorely mistaken if you think that Chinese manufacturers are content to only copy Western equipment. Manufacturers who believe that all the photo taking is just for Chinese manufacturers to reverse engineer their own golden products are going to have a rude awakening. Given all the alleged resources and government backing of Chinese manufacturers, why wouldn't they just buy a machine and disassemble it? How effective are 2D photos of an assembled, inaccessible machine?

It looks like as of Thursday 117K people had been through the gates in Vegas. Guess we will see what the final numbers are. They say that 25% are from outside the U.S. which is a record. You can gleen for yourself what that means.

We'll see what the numbers are, but this is the first Conexpo after the start of the recession. Regardless of whether the recession and down economy is completely over, in my opinion growth won't come back to the show immediately.

tnmtn
03-27-2011, 12:27 PM
I would like to hear more about the Terex displays. what were they highlighting? I think they are done buying out companies and may be starting to put more into developement as evidenced by their updated tlb designs.

ioilyouin
03-27-2011, 03:03 PM
Edit: this isn't directed at you directly, Dirtman -- it's just a response to the thought of copy-catting in general. To put it bluntly, while there continues to be a large amount of copy-cating, you are sorely mistaken if you think that Chinese manufacturers are content to only copy Western equipment. Manufacturers who believe that all the photo taking is just for Chinese manufacturers to reverse engineer their own golden products are going to have a rude awakening. Given all the alleged resources and government backing of Chinese manufacturers, why wouldn't they just buy a machine and disassemble it? How effective are 2D photos of an assembled, inaccessible machine?

Everyone might already know this,
My wife's cousin works for Cat and he claims that Asians had completely dissassembled a D6 for instance and reverse engineered it. They went so far as to take molds where necessary and not even remove casting numbers on their new parts. Dirty, Dirty, Dirty!...if it is true.

hvy 1ton
03-27-2011, 03:20 PM
Everyone might already know this,
My wife's cousin works for Cat and he claims that Asians had completely dissassembled a D6 for instance and reverse engineered it. They went so far as to take molds where necessary and not even remove casting numbers on their new parts. Dirty, Dirty, Dirty!...if it is true.

The deere guy that slammed the door was talking same stuff. Moldlines, extraneous machining, matching bolt patterns, ect.

Jim385
03-27-2011, 03:25 PM
The deere guy that slammed the door was talking same stuff. Moldlines, extraneous machining, matching bolt patterns, ect.

I guess there is no such thing as Patent laws in China? I can't understand how they can get away with carbon copy machines.:confused:

ksss
03-27-2011, 03:56 PM
I would like to hear more about the Terex displays. what were they highlighting? I think they are done buying out companies and may be starting to put more into developement as evidenced by their updated tlb designs.

Terex had a big display area. I spoke with a guy that used to be an engineer with them and now is the North American market manager (not exact title but his exact title escapes me).

I chatted with him for about a half an hour. Very cool guy. He stated that Terex sold off O&K which provided them with money to make huge improvements to the remaining product line especially the TLB and develop the skid steer as well as others. The TLB is designed especially for the NA market and spec wise goes head to head with the market leaders. Their marketing was evident at ConExpo since they had signage all over the BH about better breakout then CASE, more ground clearance then CAT etc. He said that he really likes working for Terex. He likes their committment to improving the product and working with the customer. It sounds like sound bits when I write it, but the guy seemed very genuine. I expressed what Dig Deep and I have discussed reference CAT's use of their ASV undercarriage and the damage that did to their credibility for their machines. Since the average customer doesn't know the whole story. He totally agreed with that position.

I came away impressed with my small interaction with the Terex representatives. I think they are consolidating and making the products that they do produce better. He did not see them offering full size excavators anytime soon. He said things come up and that may change but at the moment that was not a plan. He went on to say but as you know Terex has the process of aquiring other OEMs down to a science. Had to agree with that.

talus
03-27-2011, 05:19 PM
I guess you could say "You are starting the see the white" :clapping:
Wish I could have been there to bust your balls in person.:laugh::drinkup:

Tigerotor77W
03-27-2011, 05:49 PM
Everyone might already know this,
My wife's cousin works for Cat and he claims that Asians had completely dissassembled a D6 for instance and reverse engineered it. They went so far as to take molds where necessary and not even remove casting numbers on their new parts. Dirty, Dirty, Dirty!...if it is true.

The deere guy that slammed the door was talking same stuff. Moldlines, extraneous machining, matching bolt patterns, ect.

I guess there is no such thing as Patent laws in China? I can't understand how they can get away with carbon copy machines.:confused:

These three posts actually reflect what I ignored -- I was focusing on the major brands who have significant growth aspirations... not necessarily anyone who only wants to rip off the Western makes. There's likely to be a small percentage of fakes/ripoffs that are separate from the XCMG, Sany, Liugong, and other reputable manufacturers.

ksss
03-27-2011, 08:30 PM
I guess you could say "You are starting the see the white" :clapping:
Wish I could have been there to bust your balls in person.:laugh::drinkup:


LOL! Lets not getting carried away. I liked this guys interpratation of what Terex was about, but I am not trading in my Power Tan just yet. When I asked who the dealer was in Idaho for Terex he said something like D&S diesel service (not sure that was the exact name but something like that). Ah of course! Who else would it be?.:nono:

ASV could use some help on some design issues on their skid steer, but their backhoe seemed pretty solid.

talus
03-27-2011, 08:53 PM
:laugh: Hey all I'm saying is a 100G would look very nice behind your mulcher or snow blower. I'd like to see Terex buy out IHI. Maybe they will instead of the ASV proposed mini that is/was supposed to be coming out.

ksss
03-27-2011, 09:14 PM
:laugh: Hey all I'm saying is a 100G would look very nice behind your mulcher or snow blower. I'd like to see Terex buy out IHI. Maybe they will instead of the ASV proposed mini that is/was supposed to be coming out.

Now thats a good idea!

Tigerotor77W
03-27-2011, 09:31 PM
Hey Shane -- do you know of the Case 1021 and 1121 loaders are Case designs or if they're like the 1221 and based on Hyundai loaders?

ksss
03-27-2011, 09:47 PM
Hey Shane -- do you know of the Case 1021 and 1121 loaders are Case designs or if they're like the 1221 and based on Hyundai loaders?

I am not sure I didn't ask. The 1221 production was going to be moved in house in 09 don't know if that happened or not. It was nice to see them expand their wheel loader line. They look like CASE loaders with the same 21 series lines.

talus
03-27-2011, 10:33 PM
Now thats a good idea!

This is what I'm thinking. Most of the ASV/Terex dealers in these parts also sell Kubota. Now I really can't see anyone buying a Terex mini ex over a Kubota. I wonder if the dealers will give them the numbers on mini ex sales between the two so they can see for themselves.
It seems to be Terexs' thing to buy up smaller mfg's. I would also think IHI would gain from this as ASV did when Terex bought them. Terex would also gain a ctl in the deal. Hmmmmm.

farm_boy
03-27-2011, 10:50 PM
Hey Shane -- do you know of the Case 1021 and 1121 loaders are Case designs or if they're like the 1221 and based on Hyundai loaders?

10 and 1121 are Case designed and built. 1221 is still Korean and will continue to be so for a while. Interesting transmission in the two new loaders. Somewhat of a CVT. Interesting concept I guess time will tell if it pans out for them.
Posted via Mobile Device

murray83
03-28-2011, 10:00 AM
I really enjoy seeing people on these forums when asked about backhoes they never mention Terex,its always Cat,Deere or Case and anything else is "garbage" when Terex is in a good place right now.

The price range is very affordable,financing rates are just as good as the big 3,the backhoes are very meat and potatoes in the mechanical side of things and dealers are becoming more available.

When I buy my next backhoe I'm seriously looking at Terex and $80,000 (plus 13% tax) Canadian for a 760B with pilot controls is a great price when Deere and Cat 420's and 310's go for $120,000 plus tax here

Swampy
03-28-2011, 10:35 AM
And the strippers will give you a good lap dance inside the Deere Chatterbox.

Daddy needs his fix of high heels and glitter!

I really enjoy seeing people on these forums when asked about backhoes they never mention Terex,its always Cat,Deere or Case and anything else is "garbage" when Terex is in a good place right now.

The price range is very affordable,financing rates are just as good as the big 3,the backhoes are very meat and potatoes in the mechanical side of things and dealers are becoming more available.

When I buy my next backhoe I'm seriously looking at Terex and $80,000 (plus 13% tax) Canadian for a 760B with pilot controls is a great price when Deere and Cat 420's and 310's go for $120,000 plus tax here

NO offense but I just got done last week with the guys from CASE on the 580 Super M (BHL). Honestly has been the best backhoe to train on. It wasn't the cheapest machine presented to the Army, It was Spec'ed to their needs. I'm sure Terex was in the bid package but if they where cheaper and they didn't go with them? Some higher power must have found something wrong with them.

Digdeep
03-28-2011, 11:18 AM
last week with the guys from CASE on the 580 Super M (BHL). Honestly has been the best backhoe to train on. It wasn't the cheapest machine presented to the Army, It was Spec'ed to their needs. I'm sure Terex was in the bid package but if they where cheaper and they didn't go with them? Some higher power must have found something wrong with them.

I think Case makes a good backhoe, but unfortunately thats not how it works all the time with military procurement. I remember when I was with Bobcat and we were bidding a military package and our competitor actually performed far better than we did during the majority of the testing/proving process. Bobcat got the deal merely because of price. Nobody knows what price Case quoted to the military. The days of $80 toilet seats are gone.

93turbo
03-28-2011, 12:22 PM
The terex just feels akward or atleast the one I ran did and maybe the newer ones are different I haven't been in any new ones. The terex is a farmers and my brother runs it for him all the time so to see if it was just me I took my brother to try out a case and as soon as he got in it he said this is more like it. The controls are just located better but otherwise I can't say anything bad about the terex it seems to dig alright and so far been trouble free. The case was a 580 super m 4x4 with 4n1 bucket new for 90K

murray83
03-28-2011, 01:20 PM
Tried a Case SM I wasn't impressed my JCB 1400 dug better only thing I liked was the pilot controls.

All these newer machines are all too over computerized and therefor becomes costly to repair thats why I love the Terex backhoe based on the Massey Ferguson design which still work today on many sites in this area.

Lets take our 1983 Cat 235 at work for example its one of the best machines we have as its never a shop queen like the new ones are,the last 10 years its been strictly a hammer machine we also have a 2006 370C Deere strictly for a hammer machine and every month it blows hoses,leaks hydraulic fluid and has computer issues when our old Cat just loves the abuse

ksss
03-28-2011, 01:46 PM
Tried a Case SM I wasn't impressed my JCB 1400 dug better only thing I liked was the pilot controls.

All these newer machines are all too over computerized and therefor becomes costly to repair thats why I love the Terex backhoe based on the Massey Ferguson design which still work today on many sites in this area.

Lets take our 1983 Cat 235 at work for example its one of the best machines we have as its never a shop queen like the new ones are,the last 10 years its been strictly a hammer machine we also have a 2006 370C Deere strictly for a hammer machine and every month it blows hoses,leaks hydraulic fluid and has computer issues when our old Cat just loves the abuse


Actually the Terex BH is based off the Fermac backhoe. Fermac was owned by CASE.

As far as a Super M getting out dug by a 1400 JCB. That JCB might be a great hoe but out dig a Super M would be impressive. Sometimes its easy to confuse familiarity with power and comfort.

I wont argue the issue with computerization. However to meet tier requirements engines will need to be computer controlled which means everything gets computer controlled. Like it or not. The only issue I really had a problem with on the Terex backhoe was sitting in the seat and running the hoe the controls were spread too far apart and did not adjust. It would have been uncomfortable if you were in it for a long period of time. Tons of room in the cab though.

murray83
03-28-2011, 02:27 PM
Fermac bought MF industrial in the early 90's if I remember right and if you look at the 50 or 60Hx series MF backhoes from the mid 80's they are very much alike the 760 and 860 Fermac/Terex design with a few added improvements over the years to its present day model

Swampy
03-28-2011, 05:35 PM
I think Case makes a good backhoe, but unfortunately thats not how it works all the time with military procurement. I remember when I was with Bobcat and we were bidding a military package and our competitor actually performed far better than we did during the majority of the testing/proving process. Bobcat got the deal merely because of price. Nobody knows what price Case quoted to the military. The days of $80 toilet seats are gone.

And those machines suffered and where very limited as the latest round of skids where S185's, if my memory is spot on. The thing wants to flip if you lift a small diesel generator let alone a tent lol. Granted I Bobcat's have their place but we don't use ours for anything much anymore other than lifting pallets and plowing snow. I think that they kept bobcat around because all the skid attachments are bobcat as well. Are unit messed up, we took delievery of 3 Bobcats a month before CASE signed the deal.

Tigerotor77W
03-29-2011, 09:00 PM
I am not sure I didn't ask. The 1221 production was going to be moved in house in 09 don't know if that happened or not. It was nice to see them expand their wheel loader line. They look like CASE loaders with the same 21 series lines.

10 and 1121 are Case designed and built. 1221 is still Korean and will continue to be so for a while. Interesting transmission in the two new loaders. Somewhat of a CVT. Interesting concept I guess time will tell if it pans out for them.
Posted via Mobile Device

Thanks for the replies -- I was just curious. :)