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SellingIron
03-28-2011, 08:13 PM
http://bigshow.forconstructionpros.com/video/10243505/bobcat-from-the-floor-report

Don't try this in your bobcat..

Digdeep
03-28-2011, 09:53 PM
I like how he really tries to use the word objective a bunch of times...yeah right:rolleyes::rolleyes:

My buddy said he felt like a tool on the stand because they stooped to the level of having competitive parts on display. He said some guy came on the stand and schooled the guy at the CTL station because some of the components they were selling against weren't even being used any more. He said Bobcat has stooped to a new low by displaying competitors parts at a big show like ConExpo like some 3 bit fly by night OEM. Would CAT do something like this???:laugh::laugh:

SellingIron
03-28-2011, 10:26 PM
I like how he really tries to use the word objective a bunch of times...yeah right:rolleyes::rolleyes:

My buddy said he felt like a tool on the stand because they stooped to the level of having competitive parts on display. He said some guy came on the stand and schooled the guy at the CTL station because some of the components they were selling against weren't even being used any more. He said Bobcat has stooped to a new low by displaying competitors parts at a big show like ConExpo like some 3 bit fly by night OEM. Would CAT do something like this???:laugh::laugh:

Digdeep, If he is a friend of yours, I'm sure he is a tool by ASSociation. If some other brand did this at there booth, you would have been on here saying (that was a great idea).. An opinion is like an *******

Digdeep
03-28-2011, 11:08 PM
Digdeep, If he is a friend of yours, I'm sure he is a tool by ASSociation. If some other brand did this at there booth, you would have been on here saying (that was a great idea).. An opinion is like an *******

He's been with the company for at least 15 yearsand has probably forgotten more about Bobcat product than you know. Do you publicly bash competitive products at your local trade shows?

I can understand this stuff to an internal audience at Bobcat bootcamp out in AZ, but I would say the same thing if ANY other OEM did this at a major show. I just think it shows that Bobcat is either feeling pressure to lash out or is feeling threatened. Its not like them.

YellowDogSVC
03-28-2011, 11:14 PM
He's been with the company for at least 15 yearsand has probably forgotten more about Bobcat product than you know. Do you publicly bash competitive products at your local trade shows?

I can understand this stuff to an internal audience at Bobcat bootcamp out in AZ, but I would say the same thing if ANY other OEM did this at a major show. I just think it shows that Bobcat is either feeling pressure to lash out or is feeling threatened. Its not like them.

Back in '08 Ford put out a video comparing Dodge and Chevy truck parts to it's redesigned F series parts. It's hard to tell unless you are an expert whether or not the parts are from current models.
I'm not defending the practice but Bobcat isn't the first to do this.

I would think a trade show would be a place to parade your product and not bash the tent next to yours but competition is fierce these days.

Digdeep
03-28-2011, 11:17 PM
Back in '08 Ford put out a video comparing Dodge and Chevy truck parts to it's redesigned F series parts. It's hard to tell unless you are an expert whether or not the parts are from current models.
I'm not defending the practice but Bobcat isn't the first to do this.

I would think a trade show would be a place to parade your product and not bash the tent next to yours but competition is fierce these days.

Don't get me wrong..I think competition makes everyone better, but I can't tell you in the 20 years that I've been around the industry that I've seen a major OEM have junked out parts from the competition sitting in their booth to bash on....not CAT, Deere, Case, NH, etc.

NEUSWEDE
03-28-2011, 11:22 PM
I think the video and the Bobcat "comparison" videos show how cookie cutter equipment has become. Instead of stating how far their product has come and the updates it has made to roll out the E series excavators it compares and of course wins.

I wish there was a fair and impartial tester. Kinda like the how NBC used to have those Insurance saftey board tests of how safe each car was and they weren't partial to any brand.

I would rather see a video that shows all about the machine like and in and out and all around than an attack video. That would persuade me more to check out a new piece of equipment.

just my 0.02

Digdeep
03-28-2011, 11:45 PM
Digdeep, If he is a friend of yours, I'm sure he is a tool by ASSociation. If some other brand did this at there booth, you would have been on here saying (that was a great idea).. An opinion is like an *******

You know, I'll be honest with you in saying that you've "struck a nerve".

You and I have had some healthy conversations over the years, some we've agreed on, others we haven't. However, I've never questioned your character, or the character of any of your associates for that matter. Hell, I was even bummed out when you were laid off at your dealership, and I was happy when you caught on again. I've always liked your passion, but you're wrong on this, and you came across to me as some punk a$$ kid half cocked and twisted and bitter over what a long time Bobcat employee said about his experience actually in the stand at ConExpo, not all the way across the country surfing the internet. We all have our equipment biases (I stick up for Bobcat where applicable), just keep the name calling and personal characterizations to yourself.:drinkup:

curtisfarmer
03-29-2011, 11:48 AM
This requires a visit to the Thunderdome. 2 men enter, 1 man leaves. Jr. will play Mel Gibson and GR will play Tina Turner. "Break a deal and spin the wheel". I am rootin for DigDeep:waving:

bobcat_ron
03-29-2011, 04:35 PM
Bobcat is just being a bit cocky now, they have always been laughed at in the past, but now they feel they need to rock out with their marketing c*cks out.
Posted via Mobile Device

Tigerotor77W
03-29-2011, 09:06 PM
I would rather see a video that shows all about the machine like and in and out and all around than an attack video. That would persuade me more to check out a new piece of equipment.

The thing is that there simply isn't a way for someone to profitably test a machine every which way. AWJ and KSSS clearly demand performance. If I had my own business, I'd worry about the bottom line cost and probably sacrifice some raw performance to get better fuel economy. (Or maybe I'd want the machines to be lighter so I could use a lighter trailer and smaller truck to pull it.)

It's tough enough to try to come up with a way to do these tests and make money while doing it; to try to do it completely objectively and representatively would be downright mind-boggling. We've got [cruddy] magazines like Motor Trend and Car&Driver, but still there are the Ford and GM brand wars... so what exactly have these magazines solved?

(Don't get me wrong: I'd love to see these tests, too; I'm just playing devil's advocate here. If I figure out a way to do this -- and I've been thinking about for over ten years -- I'll be the first to jump in with both feet. :D)

SellingIron
03-29-2011, 09:17 PM
Dig, That was a cheap shot at yeah, ok maybe just your buddy is the tool. He was just calling it like he saw it..Nothing like getting the blood flowing.I usually just down a few:drinkup: for that.

To have parts from another vendor at conx is kind of shitty but at the same time why not. If you can find a weakness and tell customers that our competitors sell shitty parts and here's why, you have nothing to lose. Your average customer doesn't do the research like we see on this forum.

All it comes down to are opinions and take them for what there worth. One guy says peddling parts and another could say he didn't know that and learn something from it. Its going to be bobcats koolaid point of view but it changed someones opinion.

YellowDogSVC
03-29-2011, 11:38 PM
The thing is that there simply isn't a way for someone to profitably test a machine every which way. AWJ and KSSS clearly demand performance. If I had my own business, I'd worry about the bottom line cost and probably sacrifice some raw performance to get better fuel economy. (Or maybe I'd want the machines to be lighter so I could use a lighter trailer and smaller truck to pull it.)

I:D)

To each his own Tiger.. That's all it boils down to. Some need performance across the board where weight isn't an issue but raw power is (mulcher guys and heavy dirt movers) and then there are guys like me who do a little bit of everything but specialize in heavy trees (need lift) but also mulch half the time (need hp) and do worry about weight (to stay under CDL and keep my 16' trailer setup).

In the past, I ran a couple of machines one lighter, one heavier. Now I just use one machine that does everything I need but it may be overkill for many people or just not big enough for some.

This whole peeing contest across the brands is good for hype but doesn't really mean much.

I like harmony.. and though I am partial to Bobcat... if they stop giving me what I need and won't help me get to the next level, I will look elsewhere.

Digdeep
03-29-2011, 11:47 PM
ok maybe just your buddy is the tool.

To have parts from another vendor at conx is kind of shitty but at the same time why not. If you can find a weakness and tell customers that our competitors sell shitty parts and here's why, you have nothing to lose. Your average customer doesn't do the research like we see on this forum.

Like I said, I have no issue with people disagreeing with what is said on here, but calling someone a "tool" who has probably forgotten more about the industry than you know is a bit of a stretch.

I also disagree with you that Bobcat has nothing to lose...they have their reputation as a quality OEM that stands on the merits of their product and excellent people. What would you think of a local contractor that went around to potential customers calling his competitors jobs "$hitty"? I would lose respect for him.

alco
03-30-2011, 11:06 AM
I also disagree with you that Bobcat has nothing to lose...they have their reputation as a quality OEM that stands on the merits of their product

Didn't they lose that when Doosan took over?
Posted via Mobile Device

Digdeep
03-30-2011, 12:37 PM
Didn't they lose that when Doosan took over?
Posted via Mobile Device

I guess it depends who you ask. I personally still think that their skid steers are pretty good units. My beef is that it seems untowards them as the clear market leader to take the approach they just started taking. IMHO it makes them seem threatened by something or someone. When you're the stud bull you don't have to go search out other bulls to fight, you make them come to you.:weightlifter:

ksss
03-30-2011, 02:09 PM
The thing is that there simply isn't a way for someone to profitably test a machine every which way. AWJ and KSSS clearly demand performance. If I had my own business, I'd worry about the bottom line cost and probably sacrifice some raw performance to get better fuel economy. (Or maybe I'd want the machines to be lighter so I could use a lighter trailer and smaller truck to pull it.)

It's tough enough to try to come up with a way to do these tests and make money while doing it; to try to do it completely objectively and representatively would be downright mind-boggling. We've got [cruddy] magazines like Motor Trend and Car&Driver, but still there are the Ford and GM brand wars... so what exactly have these magazines solved?

(Don't get me wrong: I'd love to see these tests, too; I'm just playing devil's advocate here. If I figure out a way to do this -- and I've been thinking about for over ten years -- I'll be the first to jump in with both feet. :D)

I agree it would not be easy to objectively conduct tests but here is the cold reality. While MT and C&D are not perfect they are hugely influencial. If you think car OEMs don't pay attention when an "expert" says your car handles like a sailboat and your visibility is equal to a Normandy Pillbox your kidding yourself? They do and it makes the products much better, because informed people make buying decisions off information and while not perfect the car mags do just that, provide information. So much so people PAY to learn about it. When is the last time anyone paid for a DIRT RAG, personally never. So if your a CAR OEM you want your product in front of the pack and you work towords making that happen, cause at the end of the day you will sell more. I don't see why the same concept would not work for Heavy Equipment.

Digdeep
03-30-2011, 03:46 PM
I agree it would not be easy to objectively conduct tests but here is the cold reality. While MT and C&D are not perfect they are hugely influencial. If you think car OEMs don't pay attention when an "expert" says your car handles like a sailboat and your visibility is equal to a Normandy Pillbox your kidding yourself? They do and it makes the products much better, because informed people make buying decisions off information and while not perfect the car mags do just that, provide information. So much so people PAY to learn about it. When is the last time anyone paid for a DIRT RAG, personally never. So if your a CAR OEM you want your product in front of the pack and you work towords making that happen, cause at the end of the day you will sell more. I don't see why the same concept would not work for Heavy Equipment.

Shane..I like your descriptives..."sailboat", "Normandy pillbox"..

What about Nebraska Tractor Test Labaratory? I wonder if they do construction equipment. They would be about as unbiased as anyone.

Tigerotor77W
03-30-2011, 10:21 PM
To each his own Tiger.. That's all it boils down to.

Exactly -- which is why testing for everything (while operating at different levels and not just 100% balls out) is tough. But I agree -- this is my point, too.

I agree it would not be easy to objectively conduct tests but here is the cold reality. While MT and C&D are not perfect they are hugely influencial. If you think car OEMs don't pay attention when an "expert" says your car handles like a sailboat and your visibility is equal to a Normandy Pillbox your kidding yourself? They do and it makes the products much better, because informed people make buying decisions off information and while not perfect the car mags do just that, provide information. So much so people PAY to learn about it. When is the last time anyone paid for a DIRT RAG, personally never. So if your a CAR OEM you want your product in front of the pack and you work towords making that happen, cause at the end of the day you will sell more. I don't see why the same concept would not work for Heavy Equipment.

You say the magazines have a say, but why is the Toyota Camry such a great seller? It's simply mediocre, but it's still the best-selling car in its class -- even last year. The magazines tend to agree on this point. (For the record, I think the Camry is brilliant for this very reason, so my point isn't about the car itself. I do question the overall impact of the magazine. For brand image, sure, but for ultimate results, I'm not as sure. Those who read it are capable of making their own judgments from test drives.)

Shane..I like your descriptives..."sailboat", "Normandy pillbox"..

What about Nebraska Tractor Test Labaratory? I wonder if they do construction equipment. They would be about as unbiased as anyone.

That would be a possibility. I hadn't considered doing 100% objective tests: breakout force, axle torque / drawbar pull. The challenge is when productivity (and efficiency) comes in, as those introduce operator technique. But certain specs, definitely.

YellowDogSVC
03-30-2011, 11:07 PM
and I agree with KSSS on the manufacturers listening to the "experts". I know CAT listened to my complaints about the outside air filter on the C series picking up too much dust and not sealing correctly.. and built a snorkel that's now standard on the brush package. I doubt it was all my complaining but I know that these forums get a once over by the big boys.

But knocking the competition is part of the "game" but I tend to agree that the big shows are a place to show your product not deconstruct the competition or use old parts as a display on what's in a new series machine. That does seem a little cheap.

Digdeep
03-31-2011, 11:03 AM
That would be a possibility. I hadn't considered doing 100% objective tests: breakout force, axle torque / drawbar pull. The challenge is when productivity (and efficiency) comes in, as those introduce operator technique. But certain specs, definitely.

I may be mistaken, but I don't think a tractor OEM can sell a machine in Nebraska unless it's been tested. This was due to many of the OEMs "fudging" PTO hp, draw bar, etc. The University conducts all the testing and just publishes the raw data. I think this would be about as impartial as you could expect since they don't have a dog in the fight.

I think objective tests would be just fine since they typically translate into productivity/efficiency anyway. I think it would help to really clarify things such as the short video Bobcat made on CTLs fan and cooling systems on the new Bobcat advantage website.

Even though it wasa well made video, complete with technicians wearing lab coats, it was basically a 5 minute video waxing on about where the cooler/radiators were located and what direction air was pulled through the radiator/cooler- from the top on Bobcat, the sides on the others, etc.

To start with you could poke just as many holes into the Bobcat logic for pulling air down from the top as you could pulling air from the side (if you brush cut the debris would just sit on the screen restricting air flow), but the most interesting thing was that there wasn't one comment on how much better/more efficient the Bobcat cooled the engine or oil compared to the others when it was under a heavy engine/hydraulic load. A much better test would have been to say< "we put each of these machines engines under a 80% engine load verified by Exhaust Gas Temperatures and the Bobcat water temp was xx% cooler and the hydraulic fluid was xx% cooler after putting a constant 2300psi load on the system for 10 minutes", or something to that effect. Just my .02.

SellingIron
03-31-2011, 07:48 PM
To start with you could poke just as many holes into the Bobcat logic for pulling air down from the top as you could pulling air from the side (if you brush cut the debris would just sit on the screen restricting air flow), but the most interesting thing was that there wasn't one comment on how much better/more efficient the Bobcat cooled the engine or oil compared to the others when it was under a heavy engine/hydraulic load. A much better test would have been to say< "we put each of these machines engines under a 80% engine load verified by Exhaust Gas Temperatures and the Bobcat water temp was xx% cooler and the hydraulic fluid was xx% cooler after putting a constant 2300psi load on the system for 10 minutes", or something to that effect. Just my .02.[/QUOTE]

Bobcats point of view of there air intake video is to show you clean air cooling your engine. Everyone can figure this out.

If you own a cat skid/ctl/mtl. Your sucking in what ever is floating around and letting it collect in your engine compartment. Would you rather have this on a screen to clean or sitting on your engine. Thank god bobcat changed there cooler design.

Digdeep
03-31-2011, 08:48 PM
To start with you could poke just as many holes into the Bobcat logic for pulling air down from the top as you could pulling air from the side (if you brush cut the debris would just sit on the screen restricting air flow), but the most interesting thing was that there wasn't one comment on how much better/more efficient the Bobcat cooled the engine or oil compared to the others when it was under a heavy engine/hydraulic load. A much better test would have been to say< "we put each of these machines engines under a 80% engine load verified by Exhaust Gas Temperatures and the Bobcat water temp was xx% cooler and the hydraulic fluid was xx% cooler after putting a constant 2300psi load on the system for 10 minutes", or something to that effect. Just my .02.

Bobcats point of view of there air intake video is to show you clean air cooling your engine. Everyone can figure this out.

If you own a cat skid/ctl/mtl. Your sucking in what ever is floating around and letting it collect in your engine compartment. Would you rather have this on a screen to clean or sitting on your engine. Thank god bobcat changed there cooler design.[/QUOTE]

I'm not disputing the direction or location of the air flow. The fog machine was really pretty :cool2:

However, how does Bobcat's cooling performance/ability compare to the CAT/Deere/Takeuchi???? I'd rather suck in some dirty air if I had a cooling capacity that was 30-40% better than XX brand, especially in heavy duty applications. Air filters can be cleaned and changed often if necessary. Poor cooling capability, both engine and hydraulic is just as big of a engine/pump killer.

Mr. Rain
04-01-2011, 03:44 PM
Ask any livestock farmer with a Bobcat how well they like the cooling system....
Every one of them you look at has a pile of hay or silage debris sitting in the ridges on the top hood cooling grate. The chaff filters down directly into the radiators, besides blocking air flow. Then every time you brush off the rear deck, you're screening more crap into the radiators. Pretty awesome design. Good in theory and for fog displays, but not so good for a lot of applications in the real world.

bobcat_ron
04-01-2011, 03:48 PM
Ask any livestock farmer with a Bobcat how well they like the cooling system....
Every one of them you look at has a pile of hay or silage debris sitting in the ridges on the top hood cooling grate. The chaff filters down directly into the radiators, besides blocking air flow. Then every time you brush off the rear deck, you're screening more crap into the radiators. Pretty awesome design. Good in theory and for fog displays, but not so good for a lot of applications in the real world.

Same with the poultry farmers here, the A/C systems start to get kinda warm after the first of 3 radiators plug up, Cat and Deere are better contenders here now with a somewhat remote A/C system.
And who doesn't enjoy seeing a Bobcat operator blow the customer's hats off as they drive by at WOT? I do love laughing at those "blow jobs". :laugh:

YellowDogSVC
04-01-2011, 05:32 PM
Ask any livestock farmer with a Bobcat how well they like the cooling system....
Every one of them you look at has a pile of hay or silage debris sitting in the ridges on the top hood cooling grate. The chaff filters down directly into the radiators, besides blocking air flow. Then every time you brush off the rear deck, you're screening more crap into the radiators. Pretty awesome design. Good in theory and for fog displays, but not so good for a lot of applications in the real world.

I use an AC filter between radiator cover grate and radiators. Catches most fluff and I am able to run a mulcher in S. Texas heat. I do have to get out and clean the radiators grate and bang out the filter.. but it's part of the job. My CAT c series didn't have much more uptime with its design which clogged too BUT it was a lot easier to get to the radiators to clean them out.

ksss
04-02-2011, 01:08 AM
and I agree with KSSS on the manufacturers listening to the "experts". I know CAT listened to my complaints about the outside air filter on the C series picking up too much dust and not sealing correctly.. and built a snorkel that's now standard on the brush package. I doubt it was all my complaining but I know that these forums get a once over by the big boys.



You not kidding. That write up on the new Alpha Series CASE skid steers went through out CASE. Heard all about it when I got to ConExpo.

Junior M
04-02-2011, 01:14 AM
You not kidding. That write up on the new Alpha Series CASE skid steers went through out CASE. Heard all about it when I got to ConExpo.
that thread you posted on here, got to them?!

stuvecorp
04-02-2011, 02:07 AM
You not kidding. That write up on the new Alpha Series CASE skid steers went through out CASE. Heard all about it when I got to ConExpo.

You didn't rip on them or go all fanboy so I wouldn't think there was anything too complain about?

backhoe24
04-03-2011, 10:47 PM
Didn't they lose that when Doosan took over?
Posted via Mobile Device

No that happened when IR took them over...

ksss
04-03-2011, 10:51 PM
You didn't rip on them or go all fanboy so I wouldn't think there was anything too complain about?


Overall they were good with it.

JDSKIDSTEER
04-04-2011, 01:28 PM
ksss.....I noticed New Holland stuck with the seat belt only option. Will Case have a lap bar in the new units?

Digdeep
04-04-2011, 01:38 PM
ksss.....I noticed New Holland stuck with the seat belt only option. Will Case have a lap bar in the new units?

I'm pretty sure Case kept the lap bar. I also heard they get a little longer linkage so they lift a couple inches higher than the NH. I can't be 100% on that though.
Posted via Mobile Device

ksss
04-04-2011, 07:28 PM
ksss.....I noticed New Holland stuck with the seat belt only option. Will Case have a lap bar in the new units?

Yes the CASE machines get the lap bar and the NH machines get their seatbelt.


There are some lift height differences. The NH of course has more vertical lift options across their line than does CASE.

SellingIron
04-05-2011, 11:55 AM
Not to get off subject in this forum but I thought this was a neat article.


Bobcat Provides Machines with Robotic Capabilities for Japan Relief

Bobcat Company is partnering with QinetiQ, North America, a technology, responsive services and innovative solutions company, to provide Bobcat loaders that can go unmanned to Japanese natural disaster recovery efforts. Two Bobcat T300 compact track loaders and two 80-inch industrial grapples were sent to aid in the recovery efforts. QinetiQ's robotic appliqué kits turn Bobcat loaders into unmanned machines in just 15 minutes, making the relief efforts safer since the machine can access less stable environments without an operator in the cab.

YellowDogSVC
04-05-2011, 05:28 PM
Not to get off subject in this forum but I thought this was a neat article.


Bobcat Provides Machines with Robotic Capabilities for Japan Relief

Bobcat Company is partnering with QinetiQ, North America, a technology, responsive services and innovative solutions company, to provide Bobcat loaders that can go unmanned to Japanese natural disaster recovery efforts. Two Bobcat T300 compact track loaders and two 80-inch industrial grapples were sent to aid in the recovery efforts. QinetiQ's robotic appliqué kits turn Bobcat loaders into unmanned machines in just 15 minutes, making the relief efforts safer since the machine can access less stable environments without an operator in the cab.

Great idea and I have seen the videos and was impressed. In the right application.. I could see myself using that!

Tigerotor77W
04-05-2011, 06:42 PM
This is out of curiosity and not smartassedness -- doesn't Bobcat have their own remote operations kit? Does QinetiQ's product offer far-remote operations (i.e. from a different country)?

bobcat_ron
04-05-2011, 06:48 PM
This is out of curiosity and not smartassedness -- doesn't Bobcat have their own remote operations kit? Does QinetiQ's product offer far-remote operations (i.e. from a different country)?

Bobcat's remote system is only good for like 1000 feet, with all the mega radiation levels, this system is good for a few miles, and perfect for a Bobcat, once the task is completed, they can bury those worthless Bobcats in 30 feet of concrete, good fitting end for those boat anchors. :laugh:

SellingIron
04-05-2011, 07:47 PM
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Lazer_Z
04-05-2011, 08:17 PM
Bobcat's remote system is only good for like 1000 feet, with all the mega radiation levels, this system is good for a few miles, and perfect for a Bobcat, once the task is completed, they can bury those worthless Bobcats in 30 feet of concrete, good fitting end for those boat anchors. :laugh:C'mon Ronnie tell us how you REALLY feel :laugh::laugh::laugh: