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rvsuper
09-27-2002, 05:51 PM
How soon do you put down Pre-M for lawns? Do I do it this fall or should I put it down next spring?

tremor
09-27-2002, 08:01 PM
RVLI,

Apply Pre-M about 2 weeks prior to the anticipated date that the tagreted weed is expected to germinate.

That would obviously vary a lot depending on where you live & the weeds you're interested in controlling.

Can you list the weeds & your USDA growing zone?

Steve

greenman
09-28-2002, 01:07 AM
Actually, both fall and spring. The fall pre-m is to prevemt the cool season weeds from germinating and the spring pre-m application is to prevent the warm-season weeds (crabgrass is one ex.) from germinating. Timing is the key.

LAWNGODFATHER
10-01-2002, 07:27 AM
Originally posted by greenman
Actually, both fall and spring. The fall pre-m is to prevemt the cool season weeds from germinating and the spring pre-m application is to prevent the warm-season weeds (crabgrass is one ex.) from germinating. Timing is the key.

Aughfully expensive to treat cool season weeds.

You could treat 98% of the cool season weeds for under $0.30/M, heck go one better straight 2,4-D$0.18/M

As apposed to about $1.25/M Feb to mid March is a good time for my zone. LAWNGODFATHER 10-01-2002, 07:29 AM Double post. They got the "reply w/quote" and the "edit" buttons reversed on this forum. greenngrow 10-01-2002, 10:59 AM If you have a big problem with chickweed, henbit and other winter annuals. Then a Pre-m down in in the fall will help out. I only do it for new customers that I picked mid year. It helps build customer relations. greenman 10-02-2002, 12:02 AM i guess I don't understand your post LGF about treating cool-season weeds. Are u saying not to put down fall pre-m? Fall pre-m will keep (most of it, nothing is 100%) henbit,dandelion, some daisies, some ivies, wild onion and garlic (just to name a few) from coming up.All of these aren't really a problem though because they can be treated with postemergent, but why wait u til they germinate? We have a problem here with poa anna, 2,4-D will not control this grass but a pre-m in the fall will prevent most of it from coming up in the early spring. Pre-m applied in early spring will keep most broadleaf weeds from germinating, as well as nutsedge, dallis grass, crabgrass,quackgrass. Two pre-m in the spring can be applied to take care of the grassy weeds. Early spring and late spring. If I am in error about this, someone let me know. Though I do have some bit of experience, I am here to learn form the best. LAWNGODFATHER 10-02-2002, 12:47 AM Originally posted by greenman i guess I don't understand your post LGF about treating cool-season weeds. Are u saying not to put down fall pre-m? Fall pre-m will keep (most of it, nothing is 100%) henbit,dandelion, some daisies, some ivies, wild onion and garlic (just to name a few) from coming up.All of these aren't really a problem though because they can be treated with postemergent, but why wait u til they germinate? We have a problem here with poa anna, 2,4-D will not control this grass but a pre-m in the fall will prevent most of it from coming up in the early spring. Pre-m applied in early spring will keep most broadleaf weeds from germinating, as well as nutsedge, dallis grass, crabgrass,quackgrass. Two pre-m in the spring can be applied to take care of the grassy weeds. Early spring and late spring. If I am in error about this, someone let me know. Though I do have some bit of experience, I am here to learn form the best. Yes 1 app of pre-em in the Spring only. Demension. You are talking about 3 apps of pre-em.........Isn't that excesive? Is that even legal? Practicing IPM is not to over do it. 3 apps of pre-em is over doing it. IMO Poa anna (sp) is not a problem here, much less I have never seen it. Confront, 2,4-D, and other post herbs will do a much better job controling pests, than 3 apps of a pre-em. Don't you still do a post app(s)? I have never had a pre-em control Nut Sedge. Not to change you progam to much but you are at a$3.75 cost per 1000 sq/ft and I bet you have more applications to do. You still have your fert and post apps to do.

Weeds are going to germinate, which is the best to to treat and avoid problems?

greenman
10-02-2002, 01:06 AM
Never thought about 3 apps of pre-m being too much. I have never done the 2 in the spring, just heard about in on here. Around here we always do a fall pre-m to control the poa anna and wild onions and garlic. then a spring pre-m is done for the crabgrass and such. Any weeds that do come up are controlled with post-m. Poa anna is a problem here in the bermuda lawns only. I have never seen it in zoysia and st.auggie. alot of the lawns here are bermuda.:(
As for as the nutsedge, it usually comes up in heavily irrigated areas and beds, and they are fairly hard to control.

Fall pre-m may not be necessary where cool-season grassses are grown.

tremor
10-02-2002, 03:24 PM
I think Larry (LGF) & I are in a similar situation agronomically. Our cool season Blues & Ryes are NOT very agressive survivors of the summer. Especially this year. Yet they are prolific in the fall.

The opposite is true to our south, where the turf does well during the warm summer months, then as it cools, weeds take over the slowed down turf.

Interesting. Up here, guys like Larry & I only rarely consider a fall preemergent. The only times it's done here is for Poa. And even then, most guys are scared that the Pre will interfere with fall seeding.

I've said for years that I should try it for Poa. But I never do it because sometrhing always needs seeding.

Hey Larry, maybe we ARE the dummies on this one.
Pre-M 3.3EC for Poa would be applied at 1.3-1.8 oz. If we split the difference & say 1.5 oz & the stuff sells for $48.00 gallon then at$.57/M a fall Pre-M is cheaper than spraying Threeway for weeds and then having the client cancel because of Poa.

Perhaps up our way, the shadey lawns could be spring seeded. Then skip the spring Pre. There won't be crabgrass in the shade anyway. The do a fall Pre for the Poa.

Not much of the perennial Poa actually survived this year. And I haven't seen a lot of it yet this fall.

For the record. Three Pre-M's per year is like a wet dream for us pesticide sales guys. And not only would Poa disappear, but so would Bent Grass.
Of course we'd also never be able to seed again.

Greenman,

How do you guys reestablish turf when needed? Vegitative? Sod?

Steve

tremor
10-02-2002, 03:47 PM
Greenman,

I almost forgot. If it's Yellow Nutsedge you're dealing with, don't feel alone. We have it here too.

Manage as a post.

Pennant as a Pre.

If it's Purple Nutsedge, we don't see it here. But I've heard that Image is the way to go there. I've never worked with it though.

Steve

greenman
10-02-2002, 10:43 PM
tremor- I was hoping you would buzz in on this. I alway learn something when I read your posts. You sure seem educated in the pesticides dept. Isn't there a pre-m called Kerb (pronamide) just for poa anna, can also be used as post-m if mixed double? I don't know how it or if it would affect cool-season grassed, though.

Down here turf usually does not thin out like it does up there. Folks don't know what overseeding is unless they came from up above the transition zone or if they're old timers. We don't overseed unless its annual rye for winter color. Of course turf dies or gets thin because conditions aren't right, then we correct the problem and re-sod. We sometimes re-seed if its Bermuda (its the only grass thats in seed form here). Zoysia seed can be bought on-line but its just as expensive as the sod and doesn't germinate well.

Speaking of the transition line, I am right below it here. I can go north about 2hrs and tall fescue is grown. Tall fescue is grown here, but it really has to be irrigated almost constantly in the summer.

As far as nutsedge post, I usually use split app. of MSMA or DSMA because crabgrass and dalisgrass is also a problem. These usually just appear in Bermuda. Zoysia, and St. Auggie seems to choke out weeds (I wouldn't use MSMA on these two anyway).

tremor
10-03-2002, 07:54 AM
Kerb carries a Federal Ruestricted Use status. Probably the statement on the label about Human tumors I'll wager.

It is a root absorbed 50%WP labeled for Pre & some early postemergent activity. It controla a lot more than just Poa.

Better on high mineral soils.

NOT FOR USE ON COOL SEASON GRASSES. Darn it!

Once a year max for Bermuda, Zosia, Centipede, & St. Augie. No more than 1.5lbs Ai/A. 3lbs/Product.

http://www.bluebooktor.com/Library/..\docs\label\L28905.PDF

That Mason/Dixon line changes a lot more than just politics doesn't it?

I can't offer much in the line of personal experience down your way, but yes, I know the chemicals & the overall approach is the same anyway.

Steve

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