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phasthound
04-06-2011, 06:08 PM
I had the oppurtunity to spend a couple of hours this morning with Dr. Ingham, recently named as Chief Scientist at The Rodale Institue. We will be bringing her to NJ this winter for a full day seminar.

Tim Wilson
04-06-2011, 09:14 PM
I had the oppurtunity to spend a couple of hours this morning with Dr. Ingham, recently named as Chief Scientist at The Rodale Institue. We will be bringing her to NJ this winter for a full day seminar.

Ya, Chief Scientist at a charitable institute and giving classes for money. Are the proceeds payable to Rodale? Of course her brewer 'The Dirt Simple' must be the best, seeing as she is Chief Scientist at Rodale so you better run out and buy it, nevermind the family business brewers who pushed her up that big hill. They are just fodder for the free enterprise system. Why is it that they usually ask people joining Non-profits and the White House to give up their commercial interests? Maybe she has. Are those proceeds going to Rodale?

ChuckNC
04-06-2011, 09:27 PM
Tim,
Dude, shhhh. Don't tell the anybody.
At least the truth, LOL.
As a under study in college we
had some of the best Phd's running the program
and NONE of them had anything for sale.

You have to wonder when a product or secret pill
is for sale, and maybe it is indirect?
We have seen that version many times in the past.
Chuck

Smallaxe
04-07-2011, 08:34 AM
What are you guys talking about? Anti-free enterprise or what? Not sure that you are making valid points about anything here...

tadhussey
04-07-2011, 02:23 PM
Smallaxe,

I've had this discussion on other forums, but here's the crux of the issue:

You run a lab testing facility for composts and compost teas and education. You spend a decade testing other people's brewers. I know our company has spent over 100K with SFI over the years.

Now you go into business selling the very products you were testing, and using the information you've gathered at the expense of other companies? In addition, you're using your own lab to gather numbers which are higher than all the lab tests you've put out for other brewers/companies?

Dr. Ingham also gets appointed to Rodale. Like Tim mentioned, in order to eliminate any bias or personal interest, most of the time you're required to give up your commercial interests.

If you don't see a problem with any of this, that's fine. Personally, I'm not too happy about it. It really makes me question a lot of the "science" that she put out there, knowing she has personal gain in the process. I'm not saying she's wrong, but rather that I'm less likely to accept information at face value from SFI, and I'm certainly not going to be spending any more money getting lab tests. It would be like Nike spending money to have Reebok evaluate their shoes and decide if they were quality or not, and then Reebok using any info. they gain from their evaluation to make their own shoes better. What the advantage for Nike in this scenario? They're competitors in the same marketplace, which is something that I feel is ethically wrong for a lab, even if it is "free enterprise."

ICT Bill
04-07-2011, 08:06 PM
Smallaxe,

I've had this discussion on other forums, but here's the crux of the issue:

You run a lab testing facility for composts and compost teas and education. You spend a decade testing other people's brewers. I know our company has spent over 100K with SFI over the years.

Now you go into business selling the very products you were testing, and using the information you've gathered at the expense of other companies? In addition, you're using your own lab to gather numbers which are higher than all the lab tests you've put out for other brewers/companies?

Dr. Ingham also gets appointed to Rodale. Like Tim mentioned, in order to eliminate any bias or personal interest, most of the time you're required to give up your commercial interests.

If you don't see a problem with any of this, that's fine. Personally, I'm not too happy about it. It really makes me question a lot of the "science" that she put out there, knowing she has personal gain in the process. I'm not saying she's wrong, but rather that I'm less likely to accept information at face value from SFI, and I'm certainly not going to be spending any more money getting lab tests. It would be like Nike spending money to have Reebok evaluate their shoes and decide if they were quality or not, and then Reebok using any info. they gain from their evaluation to make their own shoes better. What the advantage for Nike in this scenario? They're competitors in the same marketplace, which is something that I feel is ethically wrong for a lab, even if it is "free enterprise."

obviously the trip is over from drinking the coolaid, Tad, I am not picking on you at all but am continually amazed at the folks that drink the coolaid for many years. I agree with the message provided but do not buy the "it must be tested message" been there done that, wore out the shirt.

1: does the product/process being used make a difference for the positive? if not stop using the product/process
2. look to step 1

Tim Wilson
04-07-2011, 08:10 PM
obviously the trip is over from drinking the coolaid, Tad, I am not picking on you at all but am continually amazed at the folks that drink the coolaid for many years. I agree with the message provided but do not buy the "it must be tested message" been there done that, wore out the shirt.

1: does the product/process being used make a difference for the positive? if not stop using the product/process
2. look to step 1

What does any of that have to do with 'conflict of interest'?

ICT Bill
04-07-2011, 08:13 PM
What does any of that have to do with 'conflict of interest'?

I wasn't speaking to conflict of interest, just drinking the Dr E coolaid of testing testing testing testing testing testing testing testing testing testing testing testing testing testing

if it works and it fits into your business plan use it, if not throw it out

Tim Wilson
04-07-2011, 09:11 PM
I wasn't speaking to conflict of interest, just drinking the Dr E coolaid of testing testing testing testing testing testing testing testing testing testing testing testing testing testing

if it works and it fits into your business plan use it, if not throw it out

I agree but that was not really what was being discussed. I'm glad I never drank any but many did.

ICT Bill
04-07-2011, 09:37 PM
I agree but that was not really what was being discussed. I'm glad I never drank any but many did.

and still do you see the folks on the CT yahoo they drill down to the enth degree for years and years and never get the point...........

does it work? then use it. If it doesn't work then try something else

starry night
04-07-2011, 09:48 PM
Soil food web fight !!!

Tim Wilson
04-07-2011, 09:53 PM
and still do you see the folks on the CT yahoo they drill down to the enth degree for years and years and never get the point...........

does it work? then use it. If it doesn't work then try something else

Well that's not the point at present; it is conflict of interest, so.....

Kiril
04-07-2011, 10:20 PM
Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone. - John Maynard Keynes

starry night
04-07-2011, 10:42 PM
Oh no, Kiril. Say it ain't so. Your breakin' my heart. Your Keynesian, too? ;)

Kiril
04-07-2011, 10:46 PM
Oh no, Kiril. Say it ain't so. Your breakin' my heart. Your Keynesian, too? ;)

Don't really know what that means, but it was better than the Marx quote I was going to use. :laugh: Don't want the black helicopters circling my house. ;)

starry night
04-07-2011, 11:07 PM
Sorry everybody for getting off topic. I saw a flash and then a quote about capitalism and I thought I was in the politics forum.

Kiril
04-07-2011, 11:09 PM
Sorry everybody for getting off topic. I saw a flash and then a quote about capitalism and I thought I was in the politics forum.

:laugh: Touche'
I thought it was an appropriate quote given the topic.

ICT Bill
04-08-2011, 09:03 AM
I had the oppurtunity to spend a couple of hours this morning with Dr. Ingham, recently named as Chief Scientist at The Rodale Institue. We will be bringing her to NJ this winter for a full day seminar.

how is her knee?

Smallaxe
04-08-2011, 09:22 AM
Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone. - John Maynard Keynes

:laugh: Keynesian Economics... The same guy that indicated how 'inflation' can steal the wealth of a nation and not one man in a million will know what were up to... A sucker born every minute... :laugh:

Smallaxe
04-08-2011, 09:29 AM
Smallaxe,

I've had this discussion on other forums, but here's the crux of the issue:

You run a lab testing facility for composts and compost teas and education. You spend a decade testing other people's brewers. I know our company has spent over 100K with SFI over the years.

Now you go into business selling the very products you were testing, and using the information you've gathered at the expense of other companies? In addition, you're using your own lab to gather numbers which are higher than all the lab tests you've put out for other brewers/companies?

Dr. Ingham also gets appointed to Rodale. Like Tim mentioned, in order to eliminate any bias or personal interest, most of the time you're required to give up your commercial interests.

If you don't see a problem with any of this, that's fine. Personally, I'm not too happy about it. It really makes me question a lot of the "science" that she put out there, knowing she has personal gain in the process. I'm not saying she's wrong, but rather that I'm less likely to accept information at face value from SFI, and I'm certainly not going to be spending any more money getting lab tests. It would be like Nike spending money to have Reebok evaluate their shoes and decide if they were quality or not, and then Reebok using any info. they gain from their evaluation to make their own shoes better. What the advantage for Nike in this scenario? They're competitors in the same marketplace, which is something that I feel is ethically wrong for a lab, even if it is "free enterprise."

I see wat you mean... It's a combination of espionage and false advertising...

I should advertise to analyse people's lawns and put out my Newsletter comparing results on my lawns to those of TGCL and every other competitor... :)

phasthound
04-08-2011, 11:13 AM
Elaine has spread controversy her entire career, starting when she called out Monsanto on not disclosing some studies on a GMO product. That being said, she has a lot to offer from her extensive work on soil microbiology. I'm neither condoning or condemning her practices, I don't know enough to judge.
She is worth hearing. As far as speaker fees, we have paid several speakers to talk at our seminars. How we do so is confidential.

Her knee is bad enough that she is unable to drive and has a crutch. She limped around the room without the crutch, but I'll bet she was hurting the next day.

Tim Wilson
04-08-2011, 11:40 AM
Elaine has spread controversy her entire career, starting when she called out Monsanto on not disclosing some studies on a GMO product. That being said, she has a lot to offer from her extensive work on soil microbiology. I'm neither condoning or condemning her practices, I don't know enough to judge.
She is worth hearing. As far as speaker fees, we have paid several speakers to talk at our seminars. How we do so is confidential.

Her knee is bad enough that she is unable to drive and has a crutch. She limped around the room without the crutch, but I'll bet she was hurting the next day.

At no time was I questioning who or how you pay Barry. That is entirely your business. When I previously spoke or worked while engaged by a charity, money earned went to the charity.

phasthound
04-08-2011, 12:10 PM
At no time was I questioning who or how you pay Barry.

Tim, I didn't think you did.
I understand you have differences with Elaine and respect your reasons for them. I would gladly have you give a presentation here, but I couldn't cover your travel costs.

Tim Wilson
04-08-2011, 01:28 PM
Tim, I didn't think you did.
I understand you have differences with Elaine and respect your reasons for them. I would gladly have you give a presentation here, but I couldn't cover your travel costs.

Just to be clear, I think Elaine gives a great talk and as I've stated previously has a much greater depth of general knowledge than I. My ONLY issue here is as I've stated and as Tad has noted.

tadhussey
04-08-2011, 01:57 PM
I wasn't speaking to conflict of interest, just drinking the Dr E coolaid of testing testing testing testing testing testing testing testing testing testing testing testing testing testing

if it works and it fits into your business plan use it, if not throw it out

To be clear, I do place a high value in testing. I think it's essential in our industry because so many people out there are selling crap without ever knowing if it's aerobic or biologically active.

I place more value on education and microscope testing though, rather than a lab test from a facility that's many miles away, after a tea has been sitting in the mail for 24 hours.

Tim's already brought up issues with the way SFI evaluates protozoa in their tea tests.

Tim Wilson
04-08-2011, 04:08 PM
To be clear, I do place a high value in testing. I think it's essential in our industry because so many people out there are selling crap without ever knowing if it's aerobic or biologically active.

I place more value on education and microscope testing though, rather than a lab test from a facility that's many miles away, after a tea has been sitting in the mail for 24 hours.

Tim's already brought up issues with the way SFI evaluates protozoa in their tea tests.

Right you are. I was not really including self-microscopy examination as testing. (However this was not the topic I was raising).