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JoeKuhl
04-20-2011, 10:02 AM
I have client who is wanting us to try and find a pet friendly lawn fertilizer for her fenced in portion of her yard. The dog is only allowed in this area. We fertilize the rest of the yard with weed and feed. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thank You
Joekuhl

mnglocker
04-20-2011, 10:18 AM
I'll send over some of the fertilizer my pet makes. What's your address? :laugh:

JDUtah
04-20-2011, 10:43 AM
What he said :)

Or dogs love licking synthetic iron granules! YUM!

Smallaxe
04-20-2011, 11:10 AM
Fenced in dog area doesn't need fertilizer. Put down sugar/molasses to more thoroughly digest the excessive urea already present...

Candrews
04-20-2011, 01:40 PM
There are dog safe products out there. Nature based or organic are safe for dogs. I like an 8-1-9 made by Plant Health Care which is now Lebanon Turf. No weed killer but good long lasting fertilizer.

Smallaxe
04-20-2011, 04:18 PM
Are there dog spots in the grass?

JoeKuhl
04-20-2011, 11:35 PM
There are some bald spots in the area and the grass isn't as thick and lush as it should be. They are very picky about there yard and they just want it to look its best.

Exact Rototilling
04-20-2011, 11:45 PM
Not trying to hijack the thread but how long after 2, 4, D use can dogs be safely let out on areas applied? :confused:

I do not buy this until it dries as per instructions. :hammerhead:

phasthound
04-21-2011, 07:47 AM
I am not aware of any fertilizer that is harmful to pets. Obviously I think organic and organic based ferts are the better options, but for different reasons.

The issue of pet health comes into play only when using fertilizer that contains pesticides. Let's get our terminology correct.

Smallaxe
04-21-2011, 07:58 AM
There are some bald spots in the area and the grass isn't as thick and lush as it should be. They are very picky about there yard and they just want it to look its best.

And dogs are the biggest challenge you willever face. Their idea of the lawn looking its best and being picky, will fall apart immediately, if you add N to the turf. Unless the dogs wiz in a litter box most of the urine will kill the lawn everywhre they go... Adding N makes the damage , much more pronounced...

I have a lawn that is home to 2 large dogs, often times 3... I Never put down N since the sod was laid... I mulch mow, aerate, use sugar/molasses, even wash the grass daily with 10 minutes of irrigation, and we still get some new dog spots during the summer, and the grass throughout is the nice dark green. Believe me, they will be so disappointed the way it is, and adding N will make it worse... :)

phasthound
04-21-2011, 10:13 AM
Smallaxe is correct, dogs and perfect turf don't mix.
Well, they could put diapers on the dogs. :laugh:

dishboy
04-21-2011, 09:50 PM
Not trying to hijack the thread but how long after 2, 4, D use can dogs be safely let out on areas applied? :confused:

I do not buy this until it dries as per instructions. :hammerhead:

Then wait until a water event has washed it off and then dried.

FYS777
04-21-2011, 10:30 PM
I have client who is wanting us to try and find a pet friendly lawn fertilizer for her fenced in portion of her yard. The dog is only allowed in this area. We fertilize the rest of the yard with weed and feed. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thank You
Joekuhl

i guess everybody on here is a joker..

Scotts any time is kid and pet friendly, says right on the bag.

ChiTownAmateur
04-23-2011, 10:04 AM
In past threads kiril has explained that with the right topdressing you can prevent urea burn. He said that you can change the system so urine gives it the nitro boost without the burn. Ask him he had an ingenius method
Posted via Mobile Device

jonthepain
04-24-2011, 08:50 AM
i'd like to give that a try on a clien'ts small bermuda lawn. beautiful turf except for the urine burns.

i suggested hosing the spots down right after they pee, but who can keep up with that?

Smallaxe
04-24-2011, 09:53 AM
In past threads kiril has explained that with the right topdressing you can prevent urea burn. He said that you can change the system so urine gives it the nitro boost without the burn. Ask him he had an ingenius method
Posted via Mobile Device

So Kiril, What is it? I really need the answer for a very troublesome situation with one of my clients... Different experiments have differing result but nothing totally satisfactory...

I could use your help... :)

Marcos
04-29-2011, 08:30 AM
Unless the dogs wiz in a litter box most of the urine will kill the lawn everywhre they go... Adding N makes the damage , much more pronounced...


We've had a number of dogs thru the years and thru experimentation & some trial & error, we've found this to be not necessarily true.

In general, the quality of food that goes into a dog dictates the pH of the urine that ultimately comes out.
In other words, if you choose to buy the el-cheapo stuff, you can usually expect to see burn marks.

Another factor to consider would be whether or not the dog(s) potty demeanor tended toward laziness because of nothing other than lack of good training.

Were they forced by lack-of-training (or in another word 'necessity') to do their business in the same general spot, typically just off the edge of a deck or patio or driveway?
Or, were they properly trained by humans to 'go' in a designated REGION of the lawn, hopefully far enough away from pedestrian traffic?

Smallaxe
04-29-2011, 11:05 AM
We've had a number of dogs thru the years and thru experimentation & some trial & error, we've found this to be not necessarily true.

In general, the quality of food that goes into a dog dictates the pH of the urine that ultimately comes out.
In other words, if you choose to buy the el-cheapo stuff, you can usually expect to see burn marks.

Another factor to consider would be whether or not the dog(s) potty demeanor tended toward laziness because of nothing other than lack of good training.

Were they forced by lack-of-training (or in another word 'necessity') to do their business in the same general spot, typically just off the edge of a deck or patio or driveway?
Or, were they properly trained by humans to 'go' in a designated REGION of the lawn, hopefully far enough away from pedestrian traffic?

Well the "El Cheapo" dog food isn't the issue with these dogs and they are better potty trained than most kids, and they have free range over a larger area than most old people, but everytime they take a wiz on the lawn the excess urea tends to burn a spot.

If you believe that pH of urine creates a burn effect, and N has nothing to do with it, then then your "Trial and Error Experimentation" is little more than Ol' Wives' Tales... :)

Marcos
04-30-2011, 08:31 AM
Well the "El Cheapo" dog food isn't the issue with these dogs and they are better potty trained than most kids, and they have free range over a larger area than most old people, but everytime they take a wiz on the lawn the excess urea tends to burn a spot.

If you believe that pH of urine creates a burn effect, and N has nothing to do with it, then then your "Trial and Error Experimentation" is little more than Ol' Wives' Tales... :)

Go on and believe what you want to believe, Smallaxe.
Ignorance is bliss. :waving:

Smallaxe
04-30-2011, 09:09 AM
Go on and believe what you want to believe, Smallaxe.
Ignorance is bliss. :waving:

Well its not the cheap dog food(1), not going in the same area(2), and not confined living quarters(3)... You're giving me nothing here!!!

The problem with the pH theory is that it makes people think that they can add N and that it will make a better lawn... even fill in the dead zones better... When in fact it increases the severity of the damge...

Ignorance is lack of knowledge, and most people know that urea burns would have a dark green ring around it... and there are some that may even know, Why.

Medically, people/dogs with acidic urine or saliva indicate they are prime for diseases of all kinds... Our bodies should be alkaline or neutral to be healthy... :)

Marcos
04-30-2011, 03:10 PM
Well its not the cheap dog food(1), not going in the same area(2), and not confined living quarters(3)... You're giving me nothing here!!!

The problem with the pH theory is that it makes people think that they can add N and that it will make a better lawn... even fill in the dead zones better... When in fact it increases the severity of the damge...



Still skeptical ,huh? :)
Then see for yourself!
Go ahead & switch your pooch from higher-end to cheap dog food & then see what begins to happen to your grass in a about a week or so........if Fido's not been trained so well, that is!

Here in S. Ohio Alkaline-Claysville if you're attempting to preserve aforementioned types of isolated turf spots from the constant onslaught of pet urine, it'll behoove you to keep a bag of pelletized lime & a dispensing shaker bottle in the general area.

Smallaxe
04-30-2011, 10:20 PM
Still skeptical ,huh? :)
Then see for yourself!
Go ahead & switch your pooch from higher-end to cheap dog food & then see what begins to happen to your grass in a about a week or so........if Fido's not been trained so well, that is!

Here in S. Ohio Alkaline-Claysville if you're attempting to preserve aforementioned types of isolated turf spots from the constant onslaught of pet urine, it'll behoove you to keep a bag of pelletized lime & a dispensing shaker bottle in the general area.

These are not my dogs nor is it my lawn... This is a situation with a client that has been going on for a few years now... The first thing we did was to stop adding fertilizer, that helped... No N at all for 4 years now, and still the greenest in the neighborhood. No lime either...

He will feed his dogs what he decides is best and I'm not even going to suggest differently. The dogs and their health are more important than the lawn to him obviously...

Anyways, if we were to think this through and come to a rational conclusion, we would have to look at a few things that we DO know and compare them with the possibilities of our unknowns...

One thing comes to mind immediately... Vinegar, even at 20% acid is said to not kill the roots and its method of operation is to burn the protective layer off the leaf and exposing it to death....

Just how acid is dog urine, that it create a deadzone, in an alkaline lawn in Ohio?

Secondly,,, Does the word, 'urea' come from the word urine? or does the word, "urine" come from the word urea?? :)

Marcos
05-01-2011, 06:25 AM
These are not my dogs nor is it my lawn... This is a situation with a client that has been going on for a few years now... The first thing we did was to stop adding fertilizer, that helped... No N at all for 4 years now, and still the greenest in the neighborhood. No lime either...

He will feed his dogs what he decides is best and I'm not even going to suggest differently. The dogs and their health are more important than the lawn to him obviously...

Anyways, if we were to think this through and come to a rational conclusion, we would have to look at a few things that we DO know and compare them with the possibilities of our unknowns...

One thing comes to mind immediately... Vinegar, even at 20% acid is said to not kill the roots and its method of operation is to burn the protective layer off the leaf and exposing it to death....

Just how acid is dog urine, that it create a deadzone, in an alkaline lawn in Ohio?

Secondly,,, Does the word, 'urea' come from the word urine? or does the word, "urine" come from the word urea?? :)

The basic Latin noun for 'urine' was "lotium". This word relates to lavare, "to wash", largely because in Ancient Rome, soap was pretty much a foreign concept. Romans utilized their own piss as much of their laundry detergent.

Smallaxe
05-01-2011, 09:27 AM
The basic Latin noun for 'urine' was "lotium". This word relates to lavare, "to wash", largely because in Ancient Rome, soap was pretty much a foreign concept. Romans utilized their own piss as much of their laundry detergent.

You want me to do the laundry, Alice!!?!?. Is THAT what you want??!!?

Look Alice I'm doing the laundry!!! Just like Ceasar used too!!! :laugh:

Kiril
05-01-2011, 10:21 AM
It is not a pH issue with urine, it is an issue of toxic levels of nitrogen and salts. If you look up the pH range of urine, it is typically within a range of 4.6 - 8 (humans), dogs between 6-8, with near neutral pH being the average for both. Adding lime to help eliminate dog spots is a wives tale.

With respect to the dog .... it is probably more an issue of the total protein consumed (too much) and total water intake (not enough).

Smallaxe
05-01-2011, 12:24 PM
High protien makes sense. I wouldn't be surprised if they all end up with gout...

I talked with the client, and he is willing to "Go All Out" with the molasses this year... We'll see if it bumps microbial actiity enough to digest the urea before it burns the grass roots.... :)

Marcos
05-02-2011, 01:24 AM
It is not a pH issue with urine, it is an issue of toxic levels of nitrogen and salts. If you look up the pH range of urine, it is typically within a range of 4.6 - 8 (humans), dogs between 6-8, with near neutral pH being the average for both. Adding lime to help eliminate dog spots is a wives tale.

With respect to the dog .... it is probably more an issue of the total protein consumed (too much) and total water intake (not enough).

You've got a good point about thirsty dogs & potential burn marks, Kiril.
That's why dog owners ought to have either one large water bowl, multiple water bowls or a gravity-fed water bowl with a supply-bottle.

But you're incorrect regarding lime & dog burn mark prevention.
I've seen consistent results over the last quarter century in our own yardS; and have worked relatively close in recent years with local professionals who specialize in dog-poo cleanup, and regularly utilize pelletized lime in just this way.

Marcos
05-02-2011, 01:27 AM
High protien makes sense. I wouldn't be surprised if they all end up with gout...

I talked with the client, and he is willing to "Go All Out" with the molasses this year... We'll see if it bumps microbial actiity enough to digest the urea before it burns the grass roots.... :)

If the mole's asses doesn't work, try just the front-end of the mole!:waving:

Smallaxe
05-02-2011, 02:23 AM
If the mole's asses doesn't work, try just the front-end of the mole!:waving:

I'll be sure to report which end of the varmit is most useful... All that waving and babbling, are you a little hoarse? Hmmm

I wonder which end of this little varmit is most useful... :)

Kiril
05-02-2011, 10:15 AM
But you're incorrect regarding lime & dog burn mark prevention.
I've seen consistent results over the last quarter century in our own yardS; and have worked relatively close in recent years with local professionals who specialize in dog-poo cleanup, and regularly utilize pelletized lime in just this way.

Do your homework Marcos .... pH is not an issue.

phasthound
05-02-2011, 10:29 AM
Do your homework Marcos .... pH is not an issue.

Sounds like the field work he has been doing has worked for him.

Kiril
05-02-2011, 10:54 AM
Sounds like the field work he has been doing has worked for him.

Sounds like he didn't do his homework or collect any data. It however doesn't surprise me that you would leap to conclusions about something you see without collecting any substantiating data or trying to determine a cause. After all, "anecdotal" data, misleading statements and wild assumptions is what this industry is all about .... right? Wanna bet if he watered the area down real good after the dog urinated he would get the same results? Oh, but that isn't as profitable ..... right? Perhaps you could provide us with a yard to cup comparison again?

Kiril
05-02-2011, 11:29 AM
Some credible information sources just for Barry & Marcos.

http://www.cmg.colostate.edu/gardennotes/553.pdf

http://www.agry.purdue.edu/turf/pubs/AY-327-W.pdf

http://ucanr.org/freepubs/docs/8255.pdf

http://turfgrass.ctahr.hawaii.edu/downloads/dogs%20and%20lawns.pdf

jonthepain
05-02-2011, 12:24 PM
thanks for the links, Kiril. I will pass those on to my clients that have this issue.

from the colorado university paper:
The only “product” that can neutralize the urine’s negative effects is
water.

Always provide adequate water for your pet; increased water consumption will dilute urine, reducing the potential for turf injury.

Maintain adequate irrigation to prevent accumulation of salts in the soil; drought or lack of water can allow salts to accumulate and injure or kill turf.

dishboy
05-02-2011, 02:43 PM
I just use the sugar spot treatment method DHALL reccomends for my lawn and it's two dogs and it works quite well. Now that my young male Shepard has matured the problem has lessened since the shrubs are the target now :confused:
Quality dog food makes no difference, but heavily fertilized lawns are much more susceptible IMO. Small lawns with dogs need no supplemental fert IMO

phasthound
05-02-2011, 09:02 PM
After all, "anecdotal" data, misleading statements and wild assumptions is what this industry is all about .... right? Wanna bet if he watered the area down real good after the dog urinated he would get the same results? Oh, but that isn't as profitable ..... right?

You're right Kiril;

I must lie, cheat and steal in order to maintain my exclusive lifestyle.
What on earth is wrong with you? And why must you make such a misleading and wild assumption?

Can't you hold a decent conversation with anyone?

Smallaxe
05-03-2011, 06:14 AM
... Small lawns with dogs need no supplemental fert IMO

Do you notice that as the dark green dissapates that it seems to spread over a wider area, greening up the grass further away? Especially when sugar/molasses are used?

dishboy
05-04-2011, 09:02 AM
Do you notice that as the dark green dissapates that it seems to spread over a wider area, greening up the grass further away? Especially when sugar/molasses are used?

Yes it does spread as I mulch. That is why adding more N creates excessive growth in a small yard. I will only add sugar to brown or browning spots. If you catch it as soon as you see discoloration the damage is adverted.

Smallaxe
05-04-2011, 09:32 AM
Yes it does spread as I mulch. That is why adding more N creates excessive growth in a small yard. I will only add sugar to brown or browning spots. If you catch it as soon as you see discoloration the damage is adverted.

This year I'm going to try a new strategy of putting down dry molasses every couple weeks or so as a preventative as well as a corrective measure... Blanket applications to keep the microbes active... We'll see... :)

PrimoSR
05-05-2011, 11:32 AM
This year I'm going to try a new strategy of putting down dry molasses every couple weeks or so as a preventative as well as a corrective measure... Blanket applications to keep the microbes active... We'll see... :)

What does the sugar/molasses/dry molasses do? In other words how does it help the grass?

ICT Bill
05-05-2011, 06:19 PM
What does the sugar/molasses/dry molasses do? In other words how does it help the grass?

it feeds the microbes and makes them expand their colonies, they in turn break down any of the plant unavailable nutrients or sequester things like dog urine. The microbes, either through their life-cycle or being eaten by other predators, release the nutrients in a plant available form in most cases

molasses has been used for over 200 years to green up turf, maybe longer

Smallaxe
05-06-2011, 06:57 AM
What does the sugar/molasses/dry molasses do? In other words how does it help the grass?

Bill's response is pretty much how the theory goes and it does seem to have validity... I'm going to find out... :)

PrimoSR
05-08-2011, 01:14 PM
Bill's response is pretty much how the theory goes and it does seem to have validity... I'm going to find out... :)

Where does one buy dry molasses?

Smallaxe
05-09-2011, 09:34 AM
You can also get liquid molasses if you like to spray, but I pick up the dry molasses at the local farm Co-op... It is generally put in with cattle feed... You might have to go outside te city to find it... :)