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View Full Version : 07 Tiger Cub died and won't start now


TX_Mudder
04-22-2011, 06:07 PM
Hi, homeowner here with an 07 Scag Tiger Cub, 48" deck, 19hp Kawasaki motor that I bought new.

I started it up earlier and made it about a minute before it died. It acted like it was running out of gas. Tried to restart it but just got a click sound.

Got a new battery in it and now it just makes a loud, single click sound when I try to start it. The motor does not turn over at all.

What should I check and how hard is it to get to?

StanWilhite
04-22-2011, 06:57 PM
Hi, homeowner here with an 07 Scag Tiger Cub, 48" deck, 19hp Kawasaki motor that I bought new.

I started it up earlier and made it about a minute before it died. It acted like it was running out of gas. Tried to restart it but just got a click sound.

Got a new battery in it and now it just makes a loud, single click sound when I try to start it. The motor does not turn over at all.

What should I check and how hard is it to get to?

First thing I'd check would be to make sure all of your safety switches are satisfied. PTO off, sticks in correct position, parking break on, etc.
Sometimes it's easy to overlook the simplest thing.

topsites
04-22-2011, 07:17 PM
Starter solenoid.

TX_Mudder
04-23-2011, 02:02 PM
Starter solenoid.

Today I unbolted the starter but left the wires hooked up so I could test it. Well, the starter spins perfectly when it's not connected to the flywheel, so it's not the starter.

It looks like the flywheel won't turn since I've ruled out the starter. Engine has just under 50 hours on it. I've done regular oil changes. I'm having a hard time believing the engine seized. When it stopped yesterday, it acted like it was running out of gas, not like there was a mechanical break.

Any ideas?

eta: Engine is a Kawasaki 19hp FH580V.

djagusch
04-23-2011, 02:18 PM
Install the starter, remove the plugs and see if it will turn the motor over. Also try jumping the starter when installed (screw driver works for this). Most likely a safey switch or bad wire to the solinoid. Also if you get the engine spinning check for spark as a safety switch would ground the coils out.
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TX_Mudder
04-23-2011, 03:33 PM
Install the starter, remove the plugs and see if it will turn the motor over. Also try jumping the starter when installed (screw driver works for this). Most likely a safey switch or bad wire to the solinoid. Also if you get the engine spinning check for spark as a safety switch would ground the coils out.
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Spark plugs out with starter motor attached, engine does not turn. The starter makes one loud click and it sounds to me that the teeth of the starter are pushing on the flywheel but the flywheel won't move.

I tried to jump the solenoid but there's very little room between the frame and the starter and I'm finding it impossible to short it without grounding it to the body of the starter.

With the starter off the engine/flywheel, if I use the key to start the engine then the starter whirs away like it should. Pardon my ignorance, but could the starter solenoid still be bad?

With the starter off, I can feel the flywheel gear's teeth. Should I be using some sort of tool to manually spin the flywheel to make sure the engine will turn or is that a bad/stupid idea?

djagusch
04-23-2011, 06:59 PM
The bolt that holds the clutch on (underneath the machine) or take off the top engine cover and there should be a bolt holding the fan on.

I would still try to jump the starter somehow.
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docshank
04-23-2011, 08:24 PM
With the starter removed try to turn the flywheel. If it won't turn, most likely you have a locked up engine. You can remove the belt that runs from the engine to the deck, then try to manually turn the engine over. Sometimes a clutch can fail and make it seem like the engine is locked up, but not too often. Look for anything that could physically be interfering with the rotation of the flywheel. If nothing is found, you have an internal problem with the engine.

docshank

SoloSulkySurfer
04-23-2011, 08:40 PM
I had a similar problem and it was a bad pto switch. I also had the saftey switch for the parking brake go. I think its a switch problem which wont let the engine start. I find it hard to believe that its the engine mine has 910 hours without any problem.

bdconsoli
04-23-2011, 08:47 PM
I could be wrong (wouldn't be the first time) but if it only has 50 hrs, shouldn't it be under some sort of warranty? If not through Scag, at least Kawasaki?

SoloSulkySurfer
04-23-2011, 08:51 PM
http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=227291&page=2

heres the post from when I had my problem, I was wrong it kept blowing fuses and had a bare spot on the wiring harness. Double check your fuses, you never know.

Daily Lawn/Landscape
04-23-2011, 09:15 PM
Access the flywheel. Get a socket and breaker bar on the nut that holds the flywheel on. If you can't turn the motor, or is very hard with the spark plugs out, motor is locked up. Stop wasting your time on safety switches, fuses etc. The motor is the problem from what you have stated thus far. Let me know what you find out.\

James

h2oskier
04-23-2011, 09:57 PM
Try looking under the deck to make sure you dont have a rock lodged up in between the blades.

ALC-GregH
04-23-2011, 10:48 PM
Access the flywheel. Get a socket and breaker bar on the nut that holds the flywheel on. If you can't turn the motor, or is very hard with the spark plugs out, motor is locked up. Stop wasting your time on safety switches, fuses etc. The motor is the problem from what you have stated thus far. Let me know what you find out.\

James
I'm with James. I think the engine is seized up. You said that you can see the teeth on the flywheel. Take a screw driver and pry against the case of the engine and see if it will turn.

Try looking under the deck to make sure you dont have a rock lodged up in between the blades.

This wouldn't matter if the PTO is disengaged.

TX_Mudder
04-25-2011, 02:55 PM
It's out of warranty because of time not because of hours.

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh314/cowjuiceranch/mower1.jpg


http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh314/cowjuiceranch/mower2.jpg


I took off the shroud and tried to move the flywheel. It's not moving more than about 1/8".

I watched the starter gear engage and try to move the flywheel and it's not the starter - that's working fine.

If it was seized, wouldn't it be solid as a rock and not moving that little 1/8" or so? I seem to recall an issue with stators on these failing and since that is under the flywheel, maybe the stator messed up and is physically blocking the flywheel? I'd have to buy a flywheel puller to find out I think.

Also, the mower's in my driveway and I want to move it in the garage in expectation of either pulling the flywheel, replacing the entire motor ($1500), or something else if you guys can think of it. I thought the proper way to do it was to turn these (in pic with screwdriver touching) all the way out and then I could push it by hand:

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh314/cowjuiceranch/mower3.jpg

I did it and it's not moving. Am I doing it wrong?

Turf Dawg
04-25-2011, 05:35 PM
You do not have to loosen them all the way, and be sure the PARKING BRAKE IS OFF.

BTW, while everything is apart, pull the spark plugs out and put a 1/2" drive ratchet with socket on middle fly wheel bolt and try and turn it.

TX_Mudder
04-25-2011, 07:08 PM
You do not have to loosen them all the way, and be sure the PARKING BRAKE IS OFF.

BTW, while everything is apart, pull the spark plugs out and put a 1/2" drive ratchet with socket on middle fly wheel bolt and try and turn it.

Parking brake... Wow, this is my brain = :sleeping: Got it in the garage, thanks.

Found a gear puller and got the flywheel off. Flywheel and stator look fine to me without obvious damage or interference.

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh314/cowjuiceranch/motor4.jpg

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh314/cowjuiceranch/motor5.jpg

While it was off, I put a bolt back on the crankshaft and used a breaker bar and....it turns, when it didn't turn before. Didn't sound happy turning though, like something non-metallic was rubbing. Turns out it's the pulley on the bottom of the engine that drives the belts. This should be normal because even if the mower deck is disengaged, the pulley still has to turn the hydraulic pump for the wheels right? Maybe I should have taken the belt off and tried starting the engine with no belt on the pulley before tearing into it?

I'm debating putting it back together and taking the belt off and seeing what happens.

Daily Lawn/Landscape
04-25-2011, 09:34 PM
Do you have the spark plugs out when turning it with the breaker bar, and does it turn easy? Also release the tension on the pump drive belt for the hydros and see if it is easier.

James

SouthSide Cutter
04-25-2011, 09:59 PM
Got a friend with that exact same mower. He dropped a vv or something in one of the heads with around 1000hrs. He told me they told him that mtr has problems. He ended up putting a 21hp Kaw back on it. I had a TC with a 21 Kaw and it had over a 1000hrs used no oil and run like a top. And the 21 may have some of the same components I don't really know. He said the problems are in the VV train on that mtr.

topsites
04-25-2011, 10:08 PM
There is always a logical series of steps to follow when troubleshooting an engine that you're not even sure what is the problem but not only are you in the WRONG SECTION OF THE FORUM but you wouldn't even replace the dang $8 solenoid, instead pulling the starter like a wise guy telling me it's not that when in fact it could very well have been the stupid solenoid since the starter's bendix gear may not have kicked OUT like it should even thou it will spin doesn't mean it's hitting the flywheel but here you are thinking it's seized so you go to turn it and wow it turns when before it didn't and you still want advice?!

You done pulled half the engine apart like you knew so much about it, why ask,
you're so sure something is seriously wrong, why not just short block it?

Because nobody here has any idea now as to how to ascertain whether that engine was seized or not,
once you started to turn it by hand any notion on how to determine prior issues such as engine seizure
have been knocked to the prevailing winds, of course a seized engine can and will turn again if turned,
but then we don't know now, nor will we ever know... Whether it was seized or not to begin with, since
some folks won't follow the rules.

topsites
04-25-2011, 10:23 PM
The reason I get so upset is because some of these folks just waltz right into the BUSINESS OWNERS ONLY section
to ask their questions and from there it just keeps getting worse but ultimately these folks are only hurting themselves
yet when someone gets injured due to someone's ultimate neglect it's then the manufacturers and the hospitals and
the ambulance crews who have to bear the brunt of the lawsuit!

And it just makes me mad as hell, every dang year yet another stupid safety device on my machine that not only is it like
having some newfag breathing down my neck telling me how to do my job but it slows me down and ultimately it costs more, too.
Fact is from this point forward you are taking a BIG chance with that engine!

All I can tell you at this point, you get that thing running you better be REAL careful.
You will need to let it idle for a good 20-30 minutes solid and I mean IDLE do NOT !!!
DO NOT GIVE IT THROTTLE!!

Because if it was indeed seized and now it's turning again and you get it running and you rev it?
It could blow a piston through the top or the sides with such force it can take someone's head off.

So IF you get it running again, let it idle for a GOOD 20-30 minutes and after that 20-30 minutes
CAREFULLY, SLOWLY give it a little throttle and see if you can get her to WOT but I mean you
better monitor it real good because if anything goes wrong neither I nor the manufacturers nor
LS nor anyone else but you has got anything at all to do with it.

TX_Mudder
06-27-2011, 11:12 AM
Just to give an update, the engine was determined to be dead by my local Scag dealership. Said it looked like I ran it low on oil. I was very good about changing oil every 3 months but they said I needed to check the oil in between changes.

With all fees and them picking my mower up and bringing it back to my house, it was $2300. They also sharpened my blades and put some sealant in one of my tires.

I looked up the engine online (FH580V-DS37S) and the cheapest I found it for was $1500. I don't feel like I did all that poorly.

Thanks for y'alls help and sorry for posting in the wrong forum. It was not my intention to disrupt this forum and I will be more careful in the future.

dieseltech
06-27-2011, 11:53 AM
For god sake check the oil before each use!!! An internal problem can arise and cause a low oil situation or just plain running the hell out of it as well. Always check the fluids before use to ensure you dont spend another 2300 bucks to fix it. Id gladly take that cash and put it to better use than that.
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Snapper Jack
06-27-2011, 07:21 PM
For god sake check the oil before each use!!! An internal problem can arise and cause a low oil situation or just plain running the hell out of it as well. Always check the fluids before use to ensure you dont spend another 2300 bucks to fix it. Id gladly take that cash and put it to better use than that.
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Kohlers have a reputation of burning oil excessively and dumping oil at the darn drainage valve causing the engine seizures. They really are to some extent APOS of an engine. I have a Kawasaki FB460V12.5 that doesn't burn one drop of oil despite it's old age.

dieseltech
06-27-2011, 07:43 PM
The op had a 19hp kawi.
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Snapper Jack
06-27-2011, 08:55 PM
Right you are should of looked a little closer at the heads instead of intake manifold

h2oskier
06-27-2011, 10:27 PM
Wow heaven forbid you gave a homeowner advice top are you still living in your parents basement?

ALC-GregH
06-27-2011, 11:07 PM
You will need to let it idle for a good 20-30 minutes solid and I mean IDLE do NOT !!!
DO NOT GIVE IT THROTTLE!!

Because if it was indeed seized and now it's turning again and you get it running and you rev it?
It could blow a piston through the top or the sides with such force it can take someone's head off.

So IF you get it running again, let it idle for a GOOD 20-30 minutes and after that 20-30 minutes
CAREFULLY, SLOWLY give it a little throttle and see if you can get her to WOT but I mean you
better monitor it real good because if anything goes wrong neither I nor the manufacturers nor
LS nor anyone else but you has got anything at all to do with it.

You are over the top. Is that why you're handle is Topsites?

Oh, by the way, I pulled two stumps out today with a chain looped on the hitch ball of my truck! Worked great. :laugh: