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Plantculture
04-23-2011, 12:54 PM
I have about 1.5 acres of turf that i am converting from bahia to bermuda.
It gets overseeded with Perennial Rye Nov 1 , and receives no pesticides from Nov -April because of grazing horses. The bahia is thinning and crabgrass is getting to be a problem. I have quite abit of common bermuda already, but want to get a solid stand by November.
Any tips to get this done without having a mess of grassy weeds?

greendoctor
04-23-2011, 01:27 PM
Grazing horses? Listen, I spray grazed land with a number of herbicides to control weeds and brush. The only restrictions I know of concern dairy cattle, animals going to the market, and usage of manure from animals feeding on treated areas. In your case, check the labeling on products containing metsulfuron. Some are registered for use on grazed land for removal of bahia grass and broadleaf weeds. Generic imazapic is a good product for maintaining monostands of bermuda. It will control crabgrass and many other weedy grasses. The other advice I can give you is that nutrient management is just as important in a pasture as a lawn. Remember that animals grazing are removing NPK from the area.

Ric
04-23-2011, 03:05 PM
I have about 1.5 acres of turf that i am converting from bahia to bermuda.
It gets overseeded with Perennial Rye Nov 1 , and receives no pesticides from Nov -April because of grazing horses. The bahia is thinning and crabgrass is getting to be a problem. I have quite abit of common bermuda already, but want to get a solid stand by November.
Any tips to get this done without having a mess of grassy weeds?

You might want to talk to these people

http://www.hancockseed.com/application-area-239/horse-pasture-grass-seed-13/

BTW from personal experience horse will eat the Bermuda first. This makes it harder to grow in Bermuda if the horse are still grazing the same pasture.

Plantculture
04-24-2011, 09:39 PM
Thanks for the tips. The pesticide restrictions are due to the fact that these are extremely valuable show horses, so I don't take any risks with pesticides during season from Dec- April. During season its wall to wall Perennial Rye grass, so the rye out-competes most weeds.
I'm trying to get the bermuda to take over so that I have more options for weed control in the summer.

zturncutter
04-24-2011, 09:50 PM
Are you dragging the pasture to spread the manure or picking it up ?

zturncutter
04-24-2011, 10:00 PM
Reason I ask is that if the horses are on the pasture, as Ric said they will go for the Bermuda first. But if you can spread manure in the areas that you are trying to grow the Bermuda in it will help to keep them out of those areas while you establish the Bermuda. First hand experience, we have two.

Ric
04-24-2011, 10:25 PM
Thanks for the tips. The pesticide restrictions are due to the fact that these are extremely valuable show horses, so I don't take any risks with pesticides during season from Dec- April. During season its wall to wall Perennial Rye grass, so the rye out-competes most weeds.
I'm trying to get the bermuda to take over so that I have more options for weed control in the summer.

Plantculture

You might be working at cross propose here. Any time you over seed HEAVY with Rye you will stunt the perennial turf by out competing it. We have found to only use 4 lb per thousand of rye seed or we see decline on the base turf. Of course a weak turf is most susceptible to weed infestation. I am sure the horse people could care less about the condition of the pasture in the summer months as long as there is plenty of Rye in social season.

BTW I have made a great Pasture drag from two RR ties and 8 Ga chain link fence chained together.

Ric
04-24-2011, 11:13 PM
Reason I ask is that if the horses are on the pasture, as Ric said they will go for the Bermuda first. But if you can spread manure in the areas that you are trying to grow the Bermuda in it will help to keep them out of those areas while you establish the Bermuda. First hand experience, we have two.


Zturn

I am going to tell on my self. I am a Mule skinner and have had both Mules and Jackasses over the years. I also was a Horse Trainer and had a boarding stable before Divorce took the farm. If you were around Boco Grande 15 to 20 years ago I had the Horse and Carriage business there. Why I am telling this is because of your Manure statement. Jackass and Mules are much smarter than horses which are actually very dumb. One thing interesting about Mules and Jackasses is they will pick and area in the pasture and they will all use the area. Therefore all the manure is in one small area.

Ric
04-26-2011, 11:46 AM
Grazing horses? Listen, I spray grazed land with a number of herbicides to control weeds and brush. The only restrictions I know of concern dairy cattle, animals going to the market, and usage of manure from animals feeding on treated areas. In your case, check the labeling on products containing metsulfuron. Some are registered for use on grazed land for removal of bahia grass and broadleaf weeds. Generic imazapic is a good product for maintaining monostands of bermuda. It will control crabgrass and many other weedy grasses. The other advice I can give you is that nutrient management is just as important in a pasture as a lawn. Remember that animals grazing are removing NPK from the area.

GreenDoctor

I have researched imazapic in hopes of finding a replacement for MSMA on Bermuda. The only imazapic I can find registered in Florida is a Crop or Ag product called Cadre

http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld337001.pdf

If you read this label you will see it doesn't even list sod farms or Yard Grasses. Of course most grains are in fact improved grasses.

Can you give more information on the use of imazapic for weed control on Bermuda??

greendoctor
04-27-2011, 12:59 AM
Ric, check on a product known as Panoramic 2sl. Forget trying to find brand name Plateau. BASF restricts the sale of this product to applicators that they have certified. It is not RUP, but BASF decides who can use their product. I was not referring to usage of imazapic on fine turf. Remember that I spray pastures and noncrop areas as well. Annual usage on established bermuda pastures will discourage coarse grasses that only a goat would eat.

Ric
04-27-2011, 09:49 AM
Ric, check on a product known as Panoramic 2sl. Forget trying to find brand name Plateau. BASF restricts the sale of this product to applicators that they have certified. It is not RUP, but BASF decides who can use their product. I was not referring to usage of imazapic on fine turf. Remember that I spray pastures and noncrop areas as well. Annual usage on established bermuda pastures will discourage coarse grasses that only a goat would eat.

Green

I need to re read my Plateau label. Yes BASF was very guarded on who they sold Plateau and I wasn't able to buy for a long time. But I have it now and only paid $ 140 a gallon which was a really big surprise also. My suppliers are almost begging me to buy it now because I am the only one buying it. I am sure you know what I am using it for.

As for Pastures, I recently rebuild a Toro Multi Pro Boom sprayer that I got from a Golf Course for free. Hey $ 27 K brand new, so I don't mind having all of $ 2500 in it, at 20 years old and running great. My plan is to market to the Agriculture Estates in my area. These are the 5 and 10 acre Estates type properties with the Huge House etc. I know you said you use your Pick up to spray pastures. I think you said you use a boom less nozzle. That certainly works and you even get to sit in Air conditioning while applying. But I am hoping the Toro Multi Pro might offer more of a Perceived value and better word of mouth because of the perceived value. I am sure it won't do any better job than your pick up.

greendoctor
04-29-2011, 02:23 PM
On turf that I can drive on, I never use a boomless nozzle. That is only for spraying fencelines. What I do is let the landowner run enough livestock in the area to eat down the grass, only leaving the weeds. Then I set up a 10 ft boom that is bolted onto the back bumper of the truck. The fact that I am doing everything from inside of a truck cab and not with an army of minimum wage laborers pumping backpack sprayers is already perceived value. I do not own a manual backpack sprayer for this reason. Mine runs on gas.

Ric
04-29-2011, 06:35 PM
On turf that I can drive on, I never use a boomless nozzle. That is only for spraying fencelines. What I do is let the landowner run enough livestock in the area to eat down the grass, only leaving the weeds. Then I set up a 10 ft boom that is bolted onto the back bumper of the truck. The fact that I am doing everything from inside of a truck cab and not with an army of minimum wage laborers pumping backpack sprayers is already perceived value. I do not own a manual backpack sprayer for this reason. Mine runs on gas.

Green

I am correct is assuming that 10 foot boom is a Weed Wipe from the way you said the cattle eat down the desirable forage???????

Some where on my computer are plans for a wide Home Made Weed Wiper that is made from PVC pipe with Rope inserts that are the wicks. The plans include where to order all the fitting etc. BTW it could either gravity fed or pressure fed. I was thinking a simple 15 gallon spot sprayer could be hooked to it with a power switch in the cab. Every so often you just hit the switch to keep the Weed Wick full. Cheap Chinese Glyphosate spiked with 2,4-D is as cheap of Weed control as you can find.

Today I drove about 20 miles inland to a Agriculture Spray supplier in the Heart of Cattle and Citrus country. As I past pasture after pasture I saw the typical high weeds that the cattle won't touch. The attitude of these ranchers are to not do anything to control weeds. What I can't understand is as cheap as it is to use a weed wipe off the back of a Pick up truck, why they let their pastures grow over 50% weeds the cattle won't touch. Right now just before Rainy season is the perfect time. we have had just a touch of rain to get the Weeds actively growing yet not enough rain for the grass to out grow the cattle feeding. I approached a few Ranchers years ago when I Thought I saw a possible market. But like many things there is a NEED but no DEMAND.

When I was in the horse boarding business and when I had Hay fields I sprigged Hybrid Bermuda. When I lived in Louisiana I had Coastal Bahia and Alecia Bermuda. Here in Florida I had straight Jiggs Bermuda and was extremely happy with the production and Protein content. But Sprigging a Hybrid Forage is the same as planting crops. The soil must be prepared and it also must be a Viable soil. All the Pastures I saw today were mostly Bahia which I have always called Poor Man's Grass because the less you do the better it grows. Most all of these pasture aren't even Fertilized.

greendoctor
04-29-2011, 06:47 PM
Sorry, not a weed wipe. It is a dry boom fed by a D30 and controlled by an 834 controller. I am spraying 20-40 gallons per acre with AI110 nozzle tips.

Dallas Turf
04-30-2011, 09:07 AM
Metsulfuron is labeled to take out Bahia, I believe it is about 1 oz per acre. check there.

Ric
04-30-2011, 09:41 AM
Metsulfuron is labeled to take out Bahia, I believe it is about 1 oz per acre. check there.

Jason

You have horses and planted pasture recently. WHAT DID YOU USE??????

Plantculture
05-10-2011, 10:00 AM
I'm not trying to just remove the bahia. I'm trying to develop a healthy stand bermuda grass while managing the grassy weeds.

Ric
05-10-2011, 10:49 AM
I'm not trying to just remove the bahia. I'm trying to develop a healthy stand bermuda grass while managing the grassy weeds.

Plant

Did you look into any of the Improved seeded varieties of Bermuda at Hancock Seed. Jason Called me on the phone and said he mixed his own seed blend of Mohawk (a Combination Pasture & Residential Variety) and Cheyenne II a very aggressive Forage/Hay variety. The Mohawk germinates quickly to give ground cover until the Cheyenne takes off growing wild.

Cheyenne II is hard to get but I did a little research on seeded pasture grass. Pennington Seed and U of F are recommending Ranchero Frio which is about the same Blend as Jason used except it has Texas Giant also. Jason left it out because he is in the Greater Dallas Tx area and Texas Giant doesn't do freezes all that well.

Maybe I am barking up the wrong tree because the Horse are only grazing in the Winter (the Social Season of the Horsey set). In that case you are planting enough Rye for winter forage and it is out competing any warm season variety. You will need to re seed or have very slow recovery each spring when the Pasture is fallow. In that case Sahara Bermuda seed from Wally World is only $ 42.00 for 15 pounds and about as cheap as you can find hulled Bermuda seed. One bag should overseed your 1 1/2 acres. I actually buy it from Wally World for erosion control and utility turf.

Ric
05-10-2011, 10:59 AM
Plant

I forgot to add Jason told me he used a Lesco Truckster set at about an 1/8 opening to spread the seed. However he was doing about 20 acres around his new house. He also said he Rolled the field to push the seed down into the soil no more than 1/8 inch.

I suggest a hand whirlybird and a light drag of some kind if you don't have a Roller.

Pastures in my area seem to either be well maintained Jiggs Grass or Crapola with nothing in between.

Plantculture
05-10-2011, 11:15 AM
Ric
We already put down the wally world seed last week. You are right about the perennial rye as the winter forage. In areas that had a stand of bermuda last year, it has already come back thick. Just did an app for the broadleaves, but now I need to spot spray for the crabgrass that starting to take over. So I need to find something that wont affect the new seedlings. I believe Drive should work

Ric
05-10-2011, 05:24 PM
Ric
We already put down the wally world seed last week. You are right about the perennial rye as the winter forage. In areas that had a stand of bermuda last year, it has already come back thick. Just did an app for the broadleaves, but now I need to spot spray for the crabgrass that starting to take over. So I need to find something that wont affect the new seedlings. I believe Drive should work

Plant

I am surprised the Bermuda bounded back so quick. Where I have over seeded heavy with rye the Bermuda was stunted and had a slow time coming back. I am guessing the Horse eat enough Rye so the Bermuda wasn't stunted and that is why you have a strong stand of Bermuda. Also I am guessing you must have Irrigation on this pasture because we are still in the the dry season.