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MOturkey
04-28-2011, 11:11 PM
Guy lives next to one of our long time mowing accounts. We've got a history, but I won't go into that now. His dad had a mowing business about 30 years ago. A couple of weeks ago, he approached me when we were parked in the alley, and began telling me how he was going into the mowing business, but for me not to worry, because he was going after the "big stuff". Now, this is in a town of about 1,000. There ain't much "big stuff".

He then proceeds to tell me how he is going to the local consignment auction on Saturday and buying a mower. They had a Gravely, and a couple of Ferris' listed. Said he and "his banker", were looking at one of the Ferris mowers, because they were low hours.

Well, a few days after the auction, I see this guy pulling his trailer down the street with his dad's little John Deere zero turn (a 225, I think is the model), the same one I've seen him mow his lawn with for the past couple of years. Now, picture this. He drives a late 70's, early 80's dually one ton pickup, and his trailer is a heavy duty 16 footer with tandem 7000lb axles.

Well, yesterday we mowed the neighbor's, and I see the guy talkng to my wife. I just kept working, because I didn't want to mess with him. After we left, my wife told me he was telling her about his mowing "business". Said he tried to get the neighbor to switch to him, but she wouldn't. He is mowing yards for $10 or $15, and offered to mow hers for $15 (I charge her $40). He told her he had 8 clients, but lost one, and thought he might have lost another. :)

Now, think about this for a minute. Gasoline is $3.66 a gallon here, and I am guessing his truck, on a good day, might get 8 mpg, especially pulling that trailer, which probably weighs at least a ton, and he is mowing yards for $15? God, how dumb can people be?

TurnerLawn&Landscape
04-28-2011, 11:40 PM
Unreal, gave an estimate today on a yard, steeeeeeep back hill, most of it will have to be weedeated, prolly 1500 square feet, + front yard, told her $40, she said "really? thats high" so i explained why i was charging that, its a real narrow street, nowhere to turn trailer around, steep terrain, gas prices, etc. and she replied with "some guy from craigslist told me $20." So I said "if he can do it for $20 he can have at it!"

Southern Pride
04-29-2011, 01:53 AM
THAT guy will never cease to exist. In fact there are more of that guy running around than level headed LCO's that I've noticed. I'm sure you know this but they are nothing to feel threatened about, but more of a bad joke, or a marvel of human idiocy. I see all these threads to the effect of "the lowballers are gonna take us over blah blah blah" NEVER in a million years would these idiots survive on delivering the quality I do at that price and people demand quality and are prepared to pay for it. I ALMOST feel bad for those guys... Let him have the craigslist creeper accounts. Just my .02

Griffin

rywnygc
04-29-2011, 07:11 AM
Saw a guy yesterday mowing an Aldi store property. Somewhere around 2 acres of grass. He was on a 36 with a sulky going full bore, bouncing all over the place. I actually had to pull over to watch him. I wasn't pulling my trailer (truck maintenance day) and my truck isnt lettered up yet, so he had no idea I was watching. My wife was with me, who knows nothing about mowing, and even she was laughing. I swear, Ill get video, the next time I see him.

punt66
04-29-2011, 07:22 AM
Unreal, gave an estimate today on a yard, steeeeeeep back hill, most of it will have to be weedeated, prolly 1500 square feet, + front yard, told her $40, she said "really? thats high" so i explained why i was charging that, its a real narrow street, nowhere to turn trailer around, steep terrain, gas prices, etc. and she replied with "some guy from craigslist told me $20." So I said "if he can do it for $20 he can have at it!"

and yet she is still looking for estimates :hammerhead:

punt66
04-29-2011, 07:24 AM
Saw a guy yesterday mowing an Aldi store property. Somewhere around 2 acres of grass. He was on a 36 with a sulky going full bore, bouncing all over the place. I actually had to pull over to watch him. I wasn't pulling my trailer (truck maintenance day) and my truck isnt lettered up yet, so he had no idea I was watching. My wife was with me, who knows nothing about mowing, and even she was laughing. I swear, Ill get video, the next time I see him.

nothing good comes from that. Dont forget about Karma. Just worry about what you are doing. :drinkup:

BestImpressions99
04-29-2011, 07:29 AM
I just got my first account away from our base of operations (I live almost 45 minutes away from where we operate). I only got this account because I know the people and they just moved from Florida and are used to paying premium prices. I only hope their neighbor doesn't get wind of it and offer to do it for much less (he's not an LCO, but has done the lawn a couple times).

When I bid the lot I reset my trip gauge and put in the travel time to and from and added it onto the bid. They'll never know. They liked my price so I'm cutting them for the first time today (their neighbor had just mowed it late last week).

What's sad though for the respectable LCO's in dealing with the low ballers/low bidders is that it takes away from what we can do. I'm not even going to try to really break into the LC business up where I live because there are too many of the "$25 no matter what" types.

G. Ramey
04-29-2011, 07:41 AM
I don't worry about those guys. I charge more, but do a much better job. Every year I usually lose one or two accounts to the lowballers, but before the end of the year I almost always get a call from the customer asking me to come back. The usual reasons are there yard looks terrible after the other guy cuts or that he just stopped showing up. Build a good reputation for the quality of your work and show up when you say you will and the lowballers can't hurt you much. Besides sometimes you can get a deal on a piece of equipment when the lowballer folds.

Tharrell
04-29-2011, 08:19 AM
Everyone starts somewhere and learns along the way just like the rest of us.
You guys myob and don't worry so much about what others are doing and you'll be much happier.
I've been on this site forever and every year it's the same posts.
Biggest reason I just check in once in a while.

MOturkey
04-29-2011, 08:35 AM
Everyone starts somewhere and learns along the way just like the rest of us.
You guys myob and don't worry so much about what others are doing and you'll be much happier.
I've been on this site forever and every year it's the same posts.
Biggest reason I just check in once in a while.

I don't "worry" about this type of person,and do try to mind my own business, but when the guy goes out of his way to corner me while I'm getting out of the truck, and tell me all of his plans, and corner my wife while she is seeding some bare spots in the lawn, it is rather difficult to ignore him.

I also mentioned we have a history. He still owes me money from mowing HIS lawn four years ago. :)

Darryl G
04-29-2011, 08:39 AM
The "big stuff" eh...the $10 and $15 lawns, lol. There will always be a place for these guys. Some people just want the lawn mowed as cheaply as possible. The problem is when they stop showing up because the truck or mower broke down or they just lose their ambition. I don't find myself losing accounts to them but losing opportunities to pick up new lawns. But a lot of people looking for someone new are doing so because the last guy "dropped out" on them and have never had a real professional lawn service and probably never will.

The accounts I find myself picking up are the people who used to mow their lawns themselves but find it just too much to keep up with or those with lawn services that just aren't responsive...don't answer the phone, don't call back, don't do the extras that every week they say they will do next week.

ALC-GregH
04-29-2011, 08:40 AM
I also mentioned we have a history. He still owes me money from mowing HIS lawn four years ago. :)

And you talk to him like everything is good? I'd be asking him "where the money is you owe me" every time I see him.

G. Ramey
04-29-2011, 10:24 AM
Get him to mow your lawn, don't pay him and call it even. lol.

grincon
04-29-2011, 10:49 AM
I know what your saying, it happens to me often. Everyone has to tell their story or plans. I have a neighbor trying to get into lawn maintenance and always tells me about the best weedeater brands or his rider. He says it saves your legs from all the walking. I mind my own business and just listen, I would offer advice to him but I can never get a sentence in. And I like walking!

quality will always speak for itself and the clients are happy with my services. I never worry about losing accounts and if i do, thats just room for another. I also never talk bad or try to put down the lowballers or any of the local competition, its just bad business.

I worry about my own business and how we can improve quality and be more efficient, I dont have time to worry about what everyone else is doing.

punt66
04-29-2011, 02:00 PM
I know what your saying, it happens to me often. Everyone has to tell their story or plans. I have a neighbor trying to get into lawn maintenance and always tells me about the best weedeater brands or his rider. He says it saves your legs from all the walking. I mind my own business and just listen, I would offer advice to him but I can never get a sentence in. And I like walking!

quality will always speak for itself and the clients are happy with my services. I never worry about losing accounts and if i do, thats just room for another. I also never talk bad or try to put down the lowballers or any of the local competition, its just bad business.

I worry about my own business and how we can improve quality and be more efficient, I dont have time to worry about what everyone else is doing.

:clapping::drinkup: Learn from this guy

Will P.C.
04-29-2011, 04:18 PM
As a customer who gets numerous lawn and spray/fert guys showing up every week, I get turned off very fast if they start pointing out 'problems' in my yard caused by my current spray man or lawn man. They say stuff like '"see those weeds, out company would take care of the whole yard and not miss spots" "what an uneven cut, can I ask what idiot cuts your grass" "your irrigation is installed wrong, that company must be out of business"

All of this stuff is a joke. I think everyone should make a practice of not talking about another mans work. Yes, it is tempting in certain cases, but realize that it makes you sound bad.

I had the day off from work today and a guy just showed up from a local fert/spray company. He asked who I was using. After I told him he exclaimed, "they are well known for using inferior fertilizer" Trying to sell a product or service by putting down the current guy is bad.

OP, instead of writing a thread about this guy, ask him for your money.

Richard Martin
04-29-2011, 04:57 PM
As a customer who gets numerous lawn and spray/fert guys showing up every week, I get turned off very fast if they start pointing out 'problems' in my yard caused by my current spray man or lawn man. They say stuff like '"see those weeds, out company would take care of the whole yard and not miss spots" "what an uneven cut, can I ask what idiot cuts your grass" "your irrigation is installed wrong, that company must be out of business"

All of this stuff is a joke. I think everyone should make a practice of not talking about another mans work. Yes, it is tempting in certain cases, but realize that it makes you sound bad.

I had the day off from work today and a guy just showed up from a local fert/spray company. He asked who I was using. After I told him he exclaimed, "they are well known for using inferior fertilizer" Trying to sell a product or service by putting down the current guy is bad.

OP, instead of writing a thread about this guy, ask him for your money.

I made a post like this not long ago. Everybody busted my chops and called me a liar.

NPMinc
04-29-2011, 05:05 PM
I also do not speak badly of anothers performance as a selling point. I simply let our work speak for itself and the customers (and neighbors etc) notice too and thats the best advertising there is and it don't cost me a thing!!!!

SLMGT
04-29-2011, 08:36 PM
Just wish him the best. He's trying to get you going. Don't give him the pleasure.:usflag:

Southern Pride
04-29-2011, 09:31 PM
Saw a guy yesterday mowing an Aldi store property. Somewhere around 2 acres of grass. He was on a 36 with a sulky going full bore, bouncing all over the place. I actually had to pull over to watch him. I wasn't pulling my trailer (truck maintenance day) and my truck isnt lettered up yet, so he had no idea I was watching. My wife was with me, who knows nothing about mowing, and even she was laughing. I swear, Ill get video, the next time I see him.

lol Why is that so funny? I don't get it. That guys going fast on his mower! ahahaha

topsites
04-29-2011, 10:16 PM
and yet she is still looking for estimates :hammerhead:

Because and I'll tell you why!!!

I'm the other guy!!!

See here, the problem is...
They flagged me down as I was working nearby and since I have 10 years experience those puny little moguls y'all call
steep hills don't bother me none and I probably could have knocked it out in 10 minutes which is why I told her $20
but the customer is probably one of those folks who maybe don't stand on very solid ground and either couldn't leave
well enough alone so she tried to get one over on me or for some other reason something the customer did or said didn't
sit real good with me so I just basically told her that I would recommend they call somebody else.
As in, take a hint!
They got it.

Now, they COULD call me back.
But they won't.

They'll actually pay you MORE rather than face me again.
The funny of it all is, that you think it's more work than the trouble it's worth too.

Moral of the story:
The other guy didn't want it either.

Roachy
04-30-2011, 12:29 AM
I saw 2 non english speaking upcoming lawn care entrepreneurs riding around my town today. They were pulling a cart and their mower with some 20yr old 4 wheeler. lol I guess theyre having trouble saving up for a truck with their mowing income.

The way I look at it is if you always charge a good fair price and work hard and dont cut corners, then you dont have to worry about dealing with customers. I find that people would rather pay a couple dollars more for a good neat job, than a little less for a sloppy one.

soloscaperman
04-30-2011, 01:03 AM
Problem here is that with most new guys there all pumped up if they get a few customers. The goal is to make money not just getting "people." It's a natural reaction I guess because thinking oh I GOT CUSTOMER'S instantly means your making money. I would rather have less customers that pay high versus a lot of crappy paying bulk of customers.

Guy prolly went home bragging, OMG honey I got more customers! Yeah but at what price? ;-)

MOturkey
04-30-2011, 07:55 AM
As a customer who gets numerous lawn and spray/fert guys showing up every week, I get turned off very fast if they start pointing out 'problems' in my yard caused by my current spray man or lawn man. They say stuff like '"see those weeds, out company would take care of the whole yard and not miss spots" "what an uneven cut, can I ask what idiot cuts your grass" "your irrigation is installed wrong, that company must be out of business"

All of this stuff is a joke. I think everyone should make a practice of not talking about another mans work. Yes, it is tempting in certain cases, but realize that it makes you sound bad.

I had the day off from work today and a guy just showed up from a local fert/spray company. He asked who I was using. After I told him he exclaimed, "they are well known for using inferior fertilizer" Trying to sell a product or service by putting down the current guy is bad.

OP, instead of writing a thread about this guy, ask him for your money.

Jeez, there are a lot of "holier than thou" types on this board who like to do a lot of reading between the lines and filling in blanks that aren't there to begin with. I don't go around bad-mouthing this guy, or any other person or company out there mowing for that matter. I've owned a business, of one type or the other, most years since I was 25 and I just turned 60. I wrote the original post more as a statement of human behavior, because I felt that those on here with actual business acumen would appreciate the irony of someone who stiffed someone who mowed his lawn, later going into the lawn business himself, and charging such ridiculously low prices that there is no way he can reap a reasonable profit.

As for asking him for the money, I'm waiting for the perfect opportunity to present itself, which, I'm sure, will eventually happen.

topsites
04-30-2011, 08:23 AM
Jeez, there are a lot of "holier than thou" types on this board who like to do a lot of reading between the lines and filling in blanks that aren't there to begin with. I don't go around bad-mouthing this guy, or any other person or company out there mowing for that matter. I've owned a business, of one type or the other, most years since I was 25 and I just turned 60. I wrote the original post more as a statement of human behavior, because I felt that those on here with actual business acumen would appreciate the irony of someone who stiffed someone who mowed his lawn, later going into the lawn business himself, and charging such ridiculously low prices that there is no way he can reap a reasonable profit.

As for asking him for the money, I'm waiting for the perfect opportunity to present itself, which, I'm sure, will eventually happen.

You're not innocent either.

One other thing...
That part about your being 60, that is probably true.
Statistically speaking, it most likely is.

ALC-GregH
04-30-2011, 09:04 AM
You're not innocent either.

One other thing...
That part about your being 60, that is probably true.
Statistically speaking, it most likely is.

I don't get you TS. He just told us (this board) he turn 60. How can you even bring it up and say that it's "probably" true?

twotone
04-30-2011, 09:06 AM
Guy lives next to one of our long time mowing accounts. We've got a history, but I won't go into that now. His dad had a mowing business about 30 years ago. A couple of weeks ago, he approached me when we were parked in the alley, and began telling me how he was going into the mowing business, but for me not to worry, because he was going after the "big stuff". Now, this is in a town of about 1,000. There ain't much "big stuff".

He then proceeds to tell me how he is going to the local consignment auction on Saturday and buying a mower. They had a Gravely, and a couple of Ferris' listed. Said he and "his banker", were looking at one of the Ferris mowers, because they were low hours.

Well, a few days after the auction, I see this guy pulling his trailer down the street with his dad's little John Deere zero turn (a 225, I think is the model), the same one I've seen him mow his lawn with for the past couple of years. Now, picture this. He drives a late 70's, early 80's dually one ton pickup, and his trailer is a heavy duty 16 footer with tandem 7000lb axles.

Well, yesterday we mowed the neighbor's, and I see the guy talkng to my wife. I just kept working, because I didn't want to mess with him. After we left, my wife told me he was telling her about his mowing "business". Said he tried to get the neighbor to switch to him, but she wouldn't. He is mowing yards for $10 or $15, and offered to mow hers for $15 (I charge her $40). He told her he had 8 clients, but lost one, and thought he might have lost another. :)

Now, think about this for a minute. Gasoline is $3.66 a gallon here, and I am guessing his truck, on a good day, might get 8 mpg, especially pulling that trailer, which probably weighs at least a ton, and he is mowing yards for $15? God, how dumb can people be?

You're not innocent either.

One other thing...
That part about your being 60, that is probably true.
Statistically speaking, it most likely is.

I think someone is missing the scenario here. You're on the job and somebody uninvited approaches to inform you that he is entering the lawn care business. He tells you how he is going to do it: the type of accounts he is seeking, what type of machinery will be purchased, where it will be purchased, and that financing will be involved. Later the same person approaches your wife (while she's working) and describes how he's been following the going after the "BIG STUFF" part of the plan by horning in on your account.
Is it just me or did this guy attend some really backward business school ?

TheMadOne
04-30-2011, 09:14 AM
The moral of this story I get is the fella your talking about has watched you come in and do a job. You've made it look a lot easier than it really is because you have a lot more experience and good old fashion OJT common sense & business sense to be successful at it. Looking at this the guy thinks wow, that's got to be easy money, no real experience or training necessary just "mow the grass", do a bunch of yards & come out with some money!!!! From there he becomes all about getting all the yards he can to make "more money" at a lower price. He doesn't really think about the obvious & hidden costs of doing business so for a little while he actually thinks he is doing great until one day he is still broke, living hand to mouth in his "new business", working his fanny off, and can't seem to ever get up on it.

Or......... He wises up quick & either starts charging more or gives it up. With the huge rises & instability of the fuel market as well as it's effect on all other prices of necessary things those who are not charging to make some level of profit are going to shrivel up soon. A hand to mouth business philosophy has never worked very well to begin with, but with the price of things as unstable as they are becoming now that philosophy will begin to put an end to a lot of poor planners. Not all there will always be more, but shear financial pressure of trying to keep a business running is going to end a bunch of them. Operating costs are rising, it's going to take even better planning to remain solvent and prosperous especially this year.

I am not a "big time" guy by any means, I just started this PT business 3 years ago...... not my first business dealing with equipment & operating costs, just first of this type. I've managed to have one successful full time business in the 80's which I sold off to one of my customers at a fair gain. Another PT business I ended up phasing out when I was offered a good PT position in the same industry at a pretty good PT wage. I have a five year plan on my PT lawn business now, so a couple of years from now if it keeps up like it has I should have a nice little business to retire into. If not.... plan didn't come to fruition as it should & time to move on. In this business as any other you have to have a plan some what flexible, but a definite plan. Most of these guys like you have described here don't have a clue what a business plan is or wind up history in a short time. There is a small benefit (silver lining if you will) to this, the HTM (hand to mouth) guys leave behind people who now want their lawns maintained and have a need for some one to call on. Usually they start off looking for another low price, but some out of that crop can be up sold to a more reliable service with a couple of upgrades in service sold into the new higher price.

So far this year the higher operating costs while causing some sting have driven several small time HTM guys out. So far this year every new customer I have gained has netted me 3 - 4 flag downs or walk up people wanting estimates because their other guy has not shown up or out right told them he is no longer doing it. That is equaling out to at least one new customer in the few places I am currently working. Now if it will just start to dry up a little bit things would be great so far this year. Well got to get going, got a some lawns to catch up on today hopefully without slipping and busting my fanny! A lot of my jobs are still just too soft for anything but my smaller WB.

MJ

topsites
04-30-2011, 09:33 AM
I don't get you TS. He just told us (this board) he turn 60. How can you even bring it up and say that it's "probably" true?

Read between the lines.

The moral of this story I get is the fella your talking about has watched you come in and do a job. You've made it look a lot easier than it really is because you have a lot more experience and good old fashion OJT common sense & business sense to be successful at it. Looking at this the guy thinks wow, that's got to be easy money, no real experience or training necessary just "mow the grass", do a bunch of yards & come out with some money!!!! From there he becomes all about getting all the yards he can to make "more money" at a lower price. He doesn't really think about the obvious & hidden costs of doing business so for a little while he actually thinks he is doing great until one day he is still broke, living hand to mouth in his "new business", working his fanny off, and can't seem to ever get up on it.

That's all fine and dandy but it doesn't mean that I think it a wise investment of my time to go running
around making fun of the other guy, which if you read the first post that is what it is, not saying you are
wrong because that's in there as well but the gist of this thread is to make a mockery of the new guy.

Now granted, I do come on here and poke fun at things (such as lawn mower racing) so I'm no angel either
but I don't think I actually point the finger at people while I laugh, I just think it's funny and maybe it's the same thing
but that also makes us look bad.

TNGrassCutter
04-30-2011, 09:44 AM
Jeez, there are a lot of "holier than thou" types on this board who like to do a lot of reading between the lines and filling in blanks that aren't there to begin with. I don't go around bad-mouthing this guy, or any other person or company out there mowing for that matter. I've owned a business, of one type or the other, most years since I was 25 and I just turned 60. I wrote the original post more as a statement of human behavior, because I felt that those on here with actual business acumen would appreciate the irony of someone who stiffed someone who mowed his lawn, later going into the lawn business himself, and charging such ridiculously low prices that there is no way he can reap a reasonable profit.

As for asking him for the money, I'm waiting for the perfect opportunity to present itself, which, I'm sure, will eventually happen.

That's for sure, people just waiting to turn your words around or fill on the blanks on their own, when honestly, most of them have had a thread or two like this before.
Posted via Mobile Device

Will P.C.
04-30-2011, 04:19 PM
It seems like the joke is on you. This guy comes up to you and tells you he is going to be a competitor. Then he goes after a client of yours. Even if he only takes a few clients from you with his low prices, that is still money that you lose in your town of 1,000. Not to ,mention he does all of this while owing you money. He told you he was about to pick up a few Ferris mowers. Obviously, he had the money. You come on here and call him an idiot, but in reality it seems the other way around.

georgiagrass
05-02-2011, 02:34 AM
Get him to mow your lawn, don't pay him and call it even. lol.

That's funny.

MOturkey
05-02-2011, 08:49 AM
It seems like the joke is on you. This guy comes up to you and tells you he is going to be a competitor. Then he goes after a client of yours. Even if he only takes a few clients from you with his low prices, that is still money that you lose in your town of 1,000. Not to ,mention he does all of this while owing you money. He told you he was about to pick up a few Ferris mowers. Obviously, he had the money. You come on here and call him an idiot, but in reality it seems the other way around.

I don't really mind being called an idiot, because I have done some really stupid things in my day. I suspect most of us have. I also know it is wrong for me to judge this guy, but no more than it is for any of you to judge me. I read at least one "rant" a day on this site, some of which are justified, some of which are not. I realize the intent of this site is to provide a discussion medium about which to compare business strategies and equipment choices, but, being human, we sometimes falter and interject our personal feelings, biases, and experiences into the mix. Of this, I am guilty.

That said, you need to read the post again. I said he "tried" to get my account, but was unsuccessful. Will he get some in the future? Who knows? If not him, maybe someone else, that is the nature of this business.

Also, as for intent to buy a "few" Ferris mowers. If you will read the original post again, I believe you will find I stated he was going to try and buy "a" mower, which, I think, generally means "one".

I also clearly stated that he and "his banker" were looking at the mowers. Now, perhaps I'm jumping to a conclusion here, but that tells me he didn't have the cash, but was trying to get a used mower financed. I also clearly stated that he did not purchase a mower, but was, instead, still using his dad's mower. I don't know why. Perhaps the mowers sold too high, perhaps his "banker" wouldn't approve the loan, perhaps he didn't like the color.

As for him owing me money, I have absolutely no doubt he has had the funds with which to pay me on multiple occasions. I believe this to be true for virtually everyone who has stiffed me in this business, or in any of the others in which I was previously involved. People rarely fail to pay obligations because they can't, but rather because they choose not to. I suspect most on this site will agree with that assumption.

Should I have taken him to small claims court? Should I whip his azz all over the alley? Perhaps, but that has never been my style. I've collected several debts over the years by treating the debtor with respect, but not one with threats, including having lawyers handle the situation. I'm financially at the point where I don't "need" his money. Would it be nice to collect it? Sure, but I'm not going to miss a payment, or a meal, if I don't.

Some people have a conscience, and some character, and it will bother them more if you are friendly to them than if you hound them for the money, as that gives them reason to rationalize that you are an azz, so why should they pay you? I've always waved at this guy every time I saw him in the yard, or met him on the road. I've always spoken to him if we came face to face. For me, that is the high road. I know he thinks about the fact that he owes me money every time, and that, to me is of some comfort. Whether or not he has the character to at some point acknowledge the debt and pay me, I don't know. At this juncture, I really doubt it, but I have no control over his actions, only my own.

MOturkey
05-02-2011, 09:03 AM
You're not innocent either.

One other thing...
That part about your being 60, that is probably true.
Statistically speaking, it most likely is.

Touche. I'm not totally innocent, but I do try to never assume something without all the facts. I also try to not assume that everything I read is true, nor false. What is the saying about the truth generally residing somewhere in the middle between the two sides of the story?

As for the question of my age, it is, I suppose totally immaterial, except from the standpoint of me having been around the block more than some of you who are two years out of high school. Doesn't make me any smarter, only wiser. And, Toppy, if you require proof, I'll see if I can't send someone to Hawaii and retrieve a copy of my birth certificate. :rolleyes: