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Airborne Toxic
06-01-2011, 11:18 PM
Rumor is starting to swirl that Imprelis is killing evergreen's, especially norway spruce. Damage is dramatic and progresses rapidly 4-6 weeks after application. Be very careful where you apply, and READ THE LABEL. Avoid drip lines. Damage is more evident on mature spruce versus newly installed 6-8 footers, probably because of the concentrated drip line of a smaller tree. Use wisely. Its a great product, but may be very short lived...

DA Quality Lawn & YS
06-01-2011, 11:36 PM
I wouldn't put out a panic signal yet.
According to the DuPont rep I spoke with, Dicamba is actually worse via root uptake than Imprelis is. And I have yet to kill a tree using a product containing Dicamba, even sprayed right up to the trunk.

More info, please. What application method was used, what rate, etc?

Airborne Toxic
06-01-2011, 11:51 PM
I agree, and I assure you it's not panic I intend to spread, but the recent issues were suggested by a couple other posts buried in another thread. This is going to deserve attention. That being said, there is no question imprelis is a great product when used properly.

When is the last time you spoke to your Dupont rep? Touch base with him/her tomorrow and ask about any recent issues with trees, and if there are any specific trees that may be more succesptible than others. There is apparently a good reason why the label recommends avoiding the drip line. Who know, maybe it will all blow over and turn out to be nothing.

I do apologize, but I can't mention the specifics of the app.

Airborne Toxic
06-01-2011, 11:54 PM
However, I should have titled the thread with a more cautionary tone. Imprelis COULD be bad for... point taken!!

mdlwn1
06-02-2011, 09:04 AM
I'm always surprised to hear when people spray any weed control below something ornamental in value.

grassman177
06-02-2011, 09:12 AM
i have had no ill effects at all anywhere

sprayed up to blue spruce trees and clematis vines. no issues and it has been at least 4 weeks or more

Grassworks Inc.
06-02-2011, 03:55 PM
Saw my first damage yesterday on a lawn that was sprayed 6 weeks ago. White pines and a Norway spruce. The spruce is toast. Have talked to several people over the past couple days and they're seeing more of it.

DA Quality Lawn & YS
06-02-2011, 10:34 PM
Saw my first damage yesterday on a lawn that was sprayed 6 weeks ago. White pines and a Norway spruce. The spruce is toast. Have talked to several people over the past couple days and they're seeing more of it.


Was this your customer? What application method did you use (ride on, gun, etc). What rate?

Grassworks Inc.
06-02-2011, 11:45 PM
Yes. Handsprayed @ 90gal/A, 4.5oz/A rate of Imprelis. The site is about 100k sqft. Had enough Imprelis for 65-70k, then switched tanks and sprayed the rest with Vessel. Tank mix consisted of fert/Prodiamine/and herbicide. No twisting/distorted growth on pines in the Vessel-treated areas, only the Imprelis-treated areas.
Have heard about 2 other LCO's in the area having issues also. I hope DuPont doesn't take the Benlate route with this.

jasontimm
06-03-2011, 12:24 AM
I wouldn't put out a panic signal yet.
According to the DuPont rep I spoke with, Dicamba is actually worse via root uptake than Imprelis is. And I have yet to kill a tree using a product containing Dicamba, even sprayed right up to the trunk.

More info, please. What application method was used, what rate, etc?

The DuPont rep or any chemical rep. is no diffrent than a used car salesman, they will tell you what you want to hear.

DA Quality Lawn & YS
06-03-2011, 01:29 AM
Still, not buying all this hoopla yet.
If there are applicator error issues then those need to come out.

No way applying 1/4 gal/K low volume with a ride on is going to kill mature pines through root uptake. With a handgun and all that volume, who knows...

mdlwn1
06-03-2011, 02:31 AM
The volume means nothing...it's the ai per k.

grassman177
06-03-2011, 08:59 AM
that is true, it is about ai

Grassworks Inc.
06-03-2011, 09:44 AM
There is an Imprelis treated site close to here with 450 dying Norway Spruces. No way that is applicator error. Thankfully not one of my sites.

Grassworks Inc.
06-03-2011, 09:45 AM
Still, not buying all this hoopla yet.
If there are applicator error issues then those need to come out.

No way applying 1/4 gal/K low volume with a ride on is going to kill mature pines through root uptake. With a handgun and all that volume, who knows...
Once it rains, what difference does volume make?

garydale
06-03-2011, 10:22 AM
Lawn treated 04/25/2011
Experieced licensed operator with 15 years on job.
Pathfinder machine.
No wind however we had 5 inches of rain over two week period after treatment.
We have treated cover 500 lawns. so we are on the lookout for more damage.
Nothing found yet and no phone calls.

djagusch
06-03-2011, 12:13 PM
That's ugly.
Posted via Mobile Device

propositionjoe
06-03-2011, 12:37 PM
Once it rains, what difference does volume make?

You're absolutely right -- all these comments about spray volume totally miss the point. Imprelis is a soil herbicide, closely related to products like picloram. It's active in the soil at very low rates, and there are warnings very clearly laid out on the label about its propensity to move into groundwater, and the need to avoid spraying inside the drip line of trees. My guess: the heavy rain after application moved the Imprelis into the root system before it had metabolized in the soil, so the trees essentially got a big dose of product right to their roots.

This is why, in a nutshell, residual broadleaf herbicides have been so few and far between in T&O -- just too much risk of something like this happening.

Grassworks Inc.
06-03-2011, 01:12 PM
I'm looking on the label on the jug of Imprelis I bought earlier this spring. Nowhere does it say to avoid spraying under the dripline of trees or shrubs. It does say "particular care must be taken within the dripline of trees and shrubs" and "do not apply to exposed roots of trees and shrubs".
My guess is DuPont will come out with a revised label very soon if they haven't already. I do know they are very aware of what's going on.

White Gardens
06-03-2011, 08:20 PM
I do know they are very aware of what's going on.

Yes, yes they are.

I'm anxious to see a press release about the issue.

Grassworks Inc.
06-03-2011, 09:38 PM
I'm anxious to see a press release about the issue.

Me too. I bet the local Wilmington DE paper has a big expose on it. DuPont can't fart around here without it making the news. They had a huge series of articles back when the Benlate problem was going on.

turf hokie
06-03-2011, 09:58 PM
Lawn treated 04/25/2011
Experieced licensed operator with 15 years on job.
Pathfinder machine.
No wind however we had 5 inches of rain over two week period after treatment.
We have treated cover 500 lawns. so we are on the lookout for more damage.
Nothing found yet and no phone calls.

Gary, just curious, are those weeds growing in the spruce? in those pics that you think have chemical damage from root uptake...how is it the you have a 2 foot weed (last pic) in the middle of it with no damage?

something does not seem right here...

americanlawn
06-03-2011, 10:02 PM
Holy Cow. No wonder I chose to let others try Imprellis before we bought it. The trees in the pics look like "sick puppies". Drooping branches is not a good sign whatsoever, cuz this usually means the entire plant (tree) is affected. A few brown needles are normal and expected (lower branches & maybe on the north side), but not at the top of the tree.

BTW, all trees in the pine family have a whirl vascular system, so damaging the branches on one side of the tree does not coincide with the root system on the same side. Same with soils - all trees in the pine family (firs, spruces, pines) prefer a well-drained soil -- this could be a contributing factor. They also prefer full sun, which the trees in the pics have >> Nuther reason why I suspect "Imprellis at work".

The "drip line" label is totally idiotic IMO >> Most established trees (conifer & deciduous) have most of their "feeder roots" (active roots) outside & well beyond the "drip line". Law suites coming down the pike? I'd bet money on it if the above pics & poster's information are accurate. Even the new candles/needles were affected -- this pretty much closes the deal. BTW, nice pics.

my 2 cents

phasthound
06-03-2011, 10:28 PM
Holy Cow. No wonder I chose to let others try Imprellis before we bought it. The trees in the pics look like "sick puppies". Drooping branches is not a good sign whatsoever, cuz this usually means the entire plant (tree) is affected. A few brown needles are normal and expected (lower branches & maybe on the north side), but not at the top of the tree.

BTW, all trees in the pine family have a whirl vascular system, so damaging the branches on one side of the tree does not coincide with the root system on the same side. Same with soils - all trees in the pine family (firs, spruces, pines) prefer a well-drained soil -- this could be a contributing factor. They also prefer full sun, which the trees in the pics have >> Nuther reason why I suspect "Imprellis at work".

The "drip line" label is totally idiotic IMO >> Most established trees (conifer & deciduous) have most of their "feeder roots" (active roots) outside & well beyond the "drip line". Law suites coming down the pike? I'd bet money on it if the above pics & poster's information are accurate. Even the new candles/needles were affected -- this pretty much closes the deal. BTW, nice pics.

my 2 cents

Larry,

You are absolutely correct about feeder roots extending far beyond the drip line with mature trees.

I'm still waiting to hear back from Rutgers as to what they know.

garydale
06-03-2011, 10:47 PM
Gary, just curious, are those weeds growing in the spruce? in those pics that you think have chemical damage from root uptake...how is it the you have a 2 foot weed (last pic) in the middle of it with no damage?

something does not seem right here...

Turf Hokie,
That weed is "Poke" about 4 ft. tall.
Birds drop it into the beds from seed. Manual removal only remedy.
I would site it's lack of visual damage as proof drift is not a issue.
Good observation.
Garydale

PS:
Guys,
I appreciate your observations but, all I wanted to do was give you a heads up on possible problem.
Do I try to address all the various comments or just consider the source and move on.

White Gardens
06-03-2011, 10:52 PM
Me too. I bet the local Wilmington DE paper has a big expose on it. DuPont can't fart around here without it making the news. They had a huge series of articles back when the Benlate problem was going on.

According to the DuPont rep I spoke to, the were trying to have some info by today, but they were still consulting with different universities and other specialists and he thought we should see info by the first of next week.

bflower
06-03-2011, 11:45 PM
Just got off a property today, customer was curious as to why his 6' norways were croaking. I thought possible frost damage due to the fact it was near the tops and a few odd flagged branches- looked like typical herbicide curling but was at top of plant so thought i was safe. I knew better than to use the magic bullet, but its rainfastness has made it possible to get through the wettest spring in ohio history. Looks like we'll be going back to old science tomorrow! Hope Dupont has their checkbook ready, With 5 gallons of product out this could get costly quick.

grassman177
06-03-2011, 11:53 PM
if this is a true outcome from imprellis, this is going to suck for you guys with all this damage showing up.

NattyLawn
06-04-2011, 05:50 AM
My Agrium rep e-mailed DuPont and their response to him that spraying under evergreens with no turf will cause damage.

pieperlc
06-04-2011, 08:13 AM
Holy Cow. No wonder I chose to let others try Imprellis before we bought it. The trees in the pics look like "sick puppies". Drooping branches is not a good sign whatsoever, cuz this usually means the entire plant (tree) is affected.

It's a weeping Norway spruce. Branches are going to droop on a healthy tree. Not saying it's a healthy tree but the drooping isn't necessarily related to the herbicide damage.
Posted via Mobile Device

grassman177
06-04-2011, 08:34 AM
It's a weeping Norway spruce. Branches are going to droop on a healthy tree. Not saying it's a healthy tree but the drooping isn't necessarily related to the herbicide damage.
Posted via Mobile Device

kinda what i thought it was, still ugly though

pieperlc
06-04-2011, 09:26 AM
Posted via Mobile Device

bushtrimmer
06-06-2011, 07:14 PM
I can't figure anything else that it could be. I was careful spraying the turf area 4 weeks ago and this happened over two days last week.
Any suggestions? What do I tell the client? Full service account.
Before anyone says anything, I went around and around with the computer to flip it over and got no cooperation, I guess par for the course today!

grassman177
06-06-2011, 09:31 PM
hard to look at, hold on i am gonna stand on my head.................

yup, did not help ahhaha

i have seen some curling on a few white pines, nothing else though. not sure what it is of yet. no spruce of any kind showing any damage at all.

i checked after reading so many posts about it here.

31bro
06-06-2011, 09:34 PM
I have the same thing on Norway Spruces. Not sure what to do now.

grassman177
06-06-2011, 11:17 PM
contacting dupont and awaiting a call from a rep soon

JDUtah
06-07-2011, 12:39 AM
here you go buddy

The damage on the turf looks old?

Good luck all of you. I would be all over a claim against dupont

mdlwn1
06-07-2011, 12:54 AM
here you go buddy

The damage on the turf looks old?

Good luck all of you. I would be all over a claim against dupont

I would have left the bottom of the pics out...classic how not to plant a tree.

Unless Dupont is going to bend over backwards for no reason, they will deny this claim based on this pic alone. The majority of the roots are right under the mulch and NOT in the ground...is imprellis labeled for spraying mulch and root balls? I would have a hard time believing that you did not spray the root ball.

mdlwn1
06-07-2011, 01:07 AM
I would like to see pics of Imprellis sprayed properly..as in not under or near the dripline (like common sense has ALWAYS dictated)...and then see if there was damage...lol

31bro
06-07-2011, 05:27 PM
here you go buddy

The damage on the turf looks old?

Good luck all of you. I would be all over a claim against dupont



Our Norway look the same and No the root ball was not sprayed. It is taken up by the drip line.

grassman177
06-07-2011, 07:10 PM
i have heard now that dupont is only seeing damage to white pines, and not spruce trees.

we need dupont in here to start clarifying things before this gets out of hand with hearsay!!

i am waiting for them to call me back

White Gardens
06-07-2011, 11:46 PM
i have heard now that dupont is only seeing damage to white pines, and not spruce trees.

we need dupont in here to start clarifying things before this gets out of hand with hearsay!!

i am waiting for them to call me back

Yes, yes they do. They need to get a presence somewhere on-line especially if this is the only national forum that is really discussing the matter.

They are watching these threads, I can guarantee it.

31bro
06-08-2011, 05:13 PM
It is also affecting Norway's. Had a chemical guru out yesterday

garydale
06-08-2011, 06:19 PM
We are seeing damage on White Pine, Norway Spruce and Deodora Cedars.
Nothing on Colorado Blue Spruce or Firs.

Our field reports show 4 separate customers asking if we are doing something different as their dogs got sick. Still researching that one.

a plus bob
06-08-2011, 06:47 PM
i have heard now that dupont is only seeing damage to white pines, and not spruce trees.

we need dupont in here to start clarifying things before this gets out of hand with hearsay!!

i am waiting for them to call me back

Trust me Ralph spruce damage is not hearsay!! Check the pictures I sent you today.

mikesturf
06-08-2011, 06:51 PM
Our field reports show 4 separate customers asking if we are doing something different as their dogs got sick. Still researching that one.


Thats real nice. The msds and the rep pretty much came across as this being a safer pesticide. Wow, this stuff worked great on thistle, bindweed, charlie, violets, clover, however all these adverse aspects is really starting to concern me a lot.

Grassworks Inc.
06-08-2011, 06:54 PM
sorry for the low-quality picture, taken with cell camera.
I took these today. They are spruces on a lawn I sprayed on 4/11/11 with Imprelis. Also seeing white pine damage on several properties. Going back in a few days with a real camera, will post more.

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/6203/latoffspruces.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/696/latoffspruces.jpg/)

Grassworks Inc.
06-08-2011, 07:11 PM
Here's a spruce in a bed next to a driveway. There is just the 1 ft-wide strip of turf between the driveway and the bed, nothing behind or around it. Tips are just starting to turn brown. Mature tree, about 20-25 ft tall. Hopefully it doesn't get any worse.

http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/7915/latoffdrivewayspruce.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/801/latoffdrivewayspruce.jpg/)

Grassworks Inc.
06-08-2011, 07:14 PM
I've looked at several lawns I sprayed w/ Imprelis, haven't seen any damage to Blue Spruces yet.

grassman177
06-08-2011, 09:59 PM
seeing it now, 6 weeks later. how old is the oldest damage now without killing the trees.

This is getting crazy.

White Gardens
06-08-2011, 10:11 PM
Originally searching around the net for more info, this and the Imprelis timeline thread were popping up in search engines.

Now I don't see them when I do a search. Don't know if it's me or if something is up.

Coincidence ? ;)

Grassworks Inc.
06-08-2011, 11:18 PM
It's DuPont. They're flying around in black helicopters zapping these threads from search engines.

Just kidding!
I googled Imprelis Damage and saw both threads. But I was on the Harrell's website earlier tonight and didn't see Imprelis in their products anymore.

Efficiency
06-09-2011, 12:14 AM
we do some sub work for Brickman and they sent an email to all subs this afternoon saying Imprellis is NOT to be used on any of their properties and if it was used already this spring, it was to be reported to two contacts they gave. They said "Imprelis may cause severe damage to deciduous and evergreen tree". After seeing these pics, Im so glad I stuck with our 3 and 4 way products. Sorry guys if you are having to deal with any of these complications.

White Gardens
06-09-2011, 12:15 AM
It's DuPont. They're flying around in black helicopters zapping these threads from search engines.


It's a conspiracy man, I'm tellin ya. It goes all the way up the chain dude, and the Pres is in on it. :laugh:

DA Quality Lawn & YS
06-09-2011, 01:17 AM
Here's a spruce in a bed next to a driveway. There is just the 1 ft-wide strip of turf between the driveway and the bed, nothing behind or around it. Tips are just starting to turn brown. Mature tree, about 20-25 ft tall. Hopefully it doesn't get any worse.

http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/7915/latoffdrivewayspruce.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/801/latoffdrivewayspruce.jpg/)

Can't hurt this tree much more than it already is. Canopy is so thin you can see right through the tree......Cut that sucker down.

Grasman
06-09-2011, 02:08 AM
I only mow and am seeing what looks like this on all kinds of pines in Southeastern MI. 4 to 6 weeks ago we had alot of rain when companies were treating lawns. I posted what I am seeing in the Network section under Michigan LCO's. Is there any cure or way to save the pines? Some homeowners are being told it is a fungus and are being sold a 3 application treatment and that the pines can be saved. All the pines 20 to 30 or more and all sizes 5' to 50' on 1 acre lots are affected.

brookline
06-09-2011, 02:46 AM
Interesting.................
Posted via Mobile Device

Grassworks Inc.
06-09-2011, 06:59 AM
Can't hurt this tree much more than it already is. Canopy is so thin you can see right through the tree......Cut that sucker down.

You can't tell from the angle of the picture, but that's a big bed with 4 or 5 old spruces and a pine in it. Also a visual barrier between their house and the back of the neighbor's garage.
I've been spraying the lawn and trees at this property for 20 years, never had a problem. Until Imprelis.

31bro
06-09-2011, 10:44 AM
seeing it now, 6 weeks later. how old is the oldest damage now without killing the trees.

This is getting crazy.

Some of the damage I am seeing was sprayed on 5/18.

indyturf
06-09-2011, 11:30 AM
Got my first call yesterday. A Norway spruce showing signs of damage. the customer had a tree specialist look at the tree and send a sample off to Purdue. it was pesticide damage but said the tree looks like it will recover. I have almost 5 gal of Imprellis, think I'm gonna call my rep today and trade out the unopened jug for another herbicide.

heathbar0
06-09-2011, 01:00 PM
sorry for the low-quality picture, taken with cell camera.
I took these today. They are spruces on a lawn I sprayed on 4/11/11 with Imprelis. Also seeing white pine damage on several properties. Going back in a few days with a real camera, will post more.

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/6203/latoffspruces.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/696/latoffspruces.jpg/)

According to the NWS, the Wilmington, DE area received over two inches of rain within 5 days of 04/11/11.

Just throwing it out there.

Greenery
06-09-2011, 02:20 PM
So with all this unexpected damage to trees from this so called magical herbicide I can't help but wonder what kind of dangers we as applicators are exposing ourselves to. If they weren't able to figure out that it's harmful to trees it makes you wonder how much testing they did regarding the effects of the A.I. With repeated exposure.
Posted via Mobile Device

ColoradoJake
06-09-2011, 02:46 PM
We have not used Imprelis, but got this email sent to me.

RE: STOP USE OF IMPRELIS


STOP USE OF IMPRELIS BROADLEAF WEED CONTROL from Dupont until further notice!

I do not have all of the details but injury to white pine and Norway
spruce has occurred on properties treated with Imprelis.

Dupont is investigating the issue but until there is more information
please stop use.

garydale
06-09-2011, 04:10 PM
Who is the stop use email from???
Forward the actual email please.

RABBITMAN11
06-09-2011, 06:42 PM
Saw damage myself today white pines and norway
Posted via Mobile Device

grassman177
06-09-2011, 10:44 PM
verification of the email is needed. i should be hearing back from the rep tomorrow. he called today, but i missed the call and could not get ahold of him.

johnroscoe
06-09-2011, 11:17 PM
I've been reading this thread with amusement, wondering how much was alarmist and how much was real.

First "real" news source I've seen cover it today got my attention though: http://bygl.osu.edu/#5

This is a very reputable source that is paid much attention in Ohio.

rcreech
06-09-2011, 11:33 PM
I am so glad I have not used any yet
Mine is still on the jug

Pay more for a product that doesn't work that well...oh and by the way it will kill ur trees!

I love my cheap Three Way
:)
Posted via Mobile Device

DA Quality Lawn & YS
06-10-2011, 12:32 AM
I agree that there is too much 'fear factor' going on here. Imprelis has worked well for me on lawns with tough to kills. Better than the Momentum FX2 I had been using....maybe maybe not jury's out yet. Would like DuPont to make a statement about the evergreen damage soon. I will reserve my judgment until then, and continue to judiciously use Imprelis, staying well away from the varieties of pines and spruces supposedly affected.

superintendent
06-10-2011, 12:43 AM
I can tell you this. About two month ago I had a dog die two days after I sprayed imprelis and yes I tell all homeowners to keep there animals or young kids off for 24 hrs Yes that is a long time but since I now have two young kids I don't want them around it. They had the dog tested and it came back that something cause the do calcium to sky rocket. The dog got out an hr after I sprayed for about 10 mins. Not only this but Im going blind in my left eye and been and still going to specialist to try to figure out what is causing it. Not saying it the imprelis causing all of this but you have to wonder about all of the storys on trees and what not

Grassworks Inc.
06-10-2011, 07:14 AM
I've been reading this thread with amusement, wondering how much was alarmist and how much was real.

First "real" news source I've seen cover it today got my attention though: http://bygl.osu.edu/#5

This is a very reputable source that is paid much attention in Ohio.

That's a nice little article. It echoes what many have been seeing in the field for a few weeks now. I'll wait until Penn State and Rutgers finish their tissue cultures and publish the results.
I wouldn't be surprised if DuPont's lawyers come knocking on OSU's door threatening product defamation now that they've published a link to Imprelis and tree damage.

DA Quality Lawn & YS
06-10-2011, 10:44 AM
I can tell you this. About two month ago I had a dog die two days after I sprayed imprelis and yes I tell all homeowners to keep there animals or young kids off for 24 hrs Yes that is a long time but since I now have two young kids I don't want them around it. They had the dog tested and it came back that something cause the do calcium to sky rocket. The dog got out an hr after I sprayed for about 10 mins. Not only this but Im going blind in my left eye and been and still going to specialist to try to figure out what is causing it. Not saying it the imprelis causing all of this but you have to wonder about all of the storys on trees and what not

I do feel for you. But toxicity testing on new products like this would have to be extensive for the product to be registered I would think. DuPont could not just say "well we think it is lower toxicity so lets give it a Caution labeling". This has to be tested to back up the claims. I would highly doubt that dog died due to Imprelis.

Please be careful not to throw out speculation and create more fear.

jasontimm
06-10-2011, 01:28 PM
I do feel for you. But toxicity testing on new products like this would have to be extensive for the product to be registered I would think. DuPont could not just say "well we think it is lower toxicity so lets give it a Caution labeling". This has to be tested to back up the claims. I would highly doubt that dog died due to Imprelis.

Please be careful not to throw out speculation and create more fear.

Call me cynical, but i dont believe a darn thing these companies do or say, i treat all labels the same as far as toxicity. Look at the FDA, a lot of the food a drugs that get approved for use were approved because of lobbying, under the table deals and so on, thats why everyday there is a recall on medication because its killing people, or having ill effects. The Chemical industry is no different. ...comes down to money, and personal (company) gain.

phasthound
06-10-2011, 03:28 PM
They reply I got from Rutgers Plant Diagnostic Lab was not conclusive, but informative;
can never rule out applicator error, but it does seem that certain conifers are especially sensitive to the product. It is a low use rate, highly water soluble, generally persistent material, and definitely not idiot proof. Care and caution should be used with this stuff. The damage is similar to dicamba or clopyralid.

DA Quality Lawn & YS
06-10-2011, 03:48 PM
Funny I have never had a problem using 3way with Dicamba around anything including tree roots, never have had a call of plants keeling over because of that nor have noticed anything. Hard time believing that Imprelis is that much worse when we were told it was that much better than Dicamba with respect to toxicity toward plants/roots. Perhaps it is, THEN Dupont has a big bunch of explaining to do.

Until then, not buying into the fear.

fl-landscapes
06-10-2011, 04:52 PM
Call me cynical, but i dont believe a darn thing these companies do or say, i treat all labels the same as far as toxicity. Look at the FDA, a lot of the food a drugs that get approved for use were approved because of lobbying, under the table deals and so on, thats why everyday there is a recall on medication because its killing people, or having ill effects. The Chemical industry is no different. ...comes down to money, and personal (company) gain.

You may be a little paranoid. Life expectancy has been going up for many many years in large part due to the advances in medications. Of course a SMALL PERCENTAGE of unfortunate people will have a bad reaction or a dr. gives bad info etc. and someone dies. Certainly not happening every day. Dollars and "personal company gain" goes mostly to companies who dont kill people. Of course injury attorneys and their over hyped commercials we see every day would make you believe differently.

RABBITMAN11
06-10-2011, 04:58 PM
Funny I have never had a problem using 3way with Dicamba around anything including tree roots, never have had a call of plants keeling over because of that nor have noticed anything. Hard time believing that Imprelis is that much worse when we were told it was that much better than Dicamba with respect to toxicity toward plants/roots. Perhaps it is, THEN Dupont has a big bunch of explaining to do.

Until then, not buying into the fear.

Well its obvious that you haven't used Imprellis! Maybe if you had damage to your customers houses than just maybe you might have a different response...Fact is Norways and White Pines are being affected by something.
We have never had any issue with weed controls killing evergreens...

Grassworks Inc.
06-10-2011, 06:18 PM
Well its obvious that you haven't used Imprellis! Maybe if you had damage to your customers houses than just maybe you might have a different response...Fact is Norways and White Pines are being affected by something.
We have never had any issue with weed controls killing evergreens...

Thank you. I've been in the lawn spray biz going on 27 years now and have not killed a tree or shrub. With dicamba, Chlorpyralid, or Fluroxypyr or anything. That includes under driplines, right up to the trunk, and in beds if a customer asked me to.
We sprayed about 33 million sq ft of turf this spring. Only 750,000 sq ft were treated with Imprelis. The rest got Vessel, Escalade2, or Strike3. That's what, two and a quarter percent? Guess where I'm not seeing any problems with dying trees? On 97.75% of my turf. On the 32,250,000 sq ft that didn't get Imprelis.
Based on my observations and talking to other people in the industry I'm buying into it.

grassman177
06-10-2011, 07:38 PM
i agree. dont spread hearsay and undocumented rumors and crap

grassman177
06-10-2011, 07:44 PM
i am sending pictures to the rep for documentation after talking with him. I may be lucky and the damage is mild and the trees should recover fine, but others with different soils and conditions have not been so lucky. There is of course not any reason to fully believe that the trees will not further be damaged. but, likely more that they wont.

they should have a statement and course of action out by next week he said, and i urged him to hurry cuz we are all caught off guard a bit.... nationwide etc etc.

DA Quality Lawn & YS
06-10-2011, 07:50 PM
Definitely not saying that Imprelis isn't causing all this. Seems a good chance.
I just don't want to buy into the fear-spreading hearsay like "yeah I used Imprelis and 4 wks later grew two weeners and I think its the chemical" type statements. Sometimes its hard to weed that out from the real claims.

americanlawn
06-10-2011, 09:12 PM
One of our suppliers called me yesterday. He has sold quite a bit of Imprellis, but he was just notified by the manufacturer that there might be off target problems. Apparently, Dupont is unsure >> said they're "looking into it". This is not a good sign. :hammerhead:

Talked to a very close friend last night (Quad Cities). He is in charge of chemical apps for the LCO. He got chewed out from his boss for using 7 ounces of Imprellis instead of 5 ounces. This has been a complaint from the git go. Why can't Dupont add in some inert ingredients to make mixing more simple/easier/safer/more accurate? :confused:

jimsorganic
06-10-2011, 09:45 PM
dude that was tip and pours are for i gave my guys 20 oz a day in a tip n pour was the most easy thing evr this stuff was a magic bullet..too good or bad however you look at it

Grassworks Inc.
06-10-2011, 09:47 PM
"yeah I used Imprelis and 4 wks later grew two weeners and I think its the chemical"

Might be the only way DuPont can save it :laugh:

phasthound
06-10-2011, 09:53 PM
Might be the only way DuPont can save it :laugh:

Now that's funny! :laugh:

LawnGuy73
06-10-2011, 10:29 PM
Subscribed.

ProMo
06-10-2011, 10:50 PM
I do feel for you. But toxicity testing on new products like this would have to be extensive for the product to be registered I would think. DuPont could not just say "well we think it is lower toxicity so lets give it a Caution labeling". This has to be tested to back up the claims. I would highly doubt that dog died due to Imprelis.

Please be careful not to throw out speculation and create more fear.

The signal word on the label is the accute toxicity of the pesticide meaning symtoms showing up usually within 12-24 hrs and has nothing to do with chronic toxicity

Airborne Toxic
06-11-2011, 12:17 AM
Well over 2000 confirmed trees damaged in the Columbus, OH area alone, and the number will grow much much higher. Obviously Norway are the most susceptible. Consistent damage on white pines, though if any variety looks as though they could recover, its the white pines. First damaged observed today on baldcypress. Regular damage on locust, though its much harder to identify because of the natural yellowing of new growth. Observed damage on both Douglas and Canaan firs.

Has anyone observed damage on properties that used a surfactant in their application, or tank mixed with Dimension 2EW, or any other product with a built in surfactant? Just a thought.

You can continue to debate the merits of the damage, and the how and why, but the simple fact is applicator error is not the issue and its time to move on. Only DuPont can speculate as to what went wrong, whether a formulation error, unforeseen environmental event, poor site testing. The bigger issue will be communication with the homeowner, property manager ect. Eventually questions will have to be answered and trees replaced. The sooner this becomes a public issue, a national issue, the less the burden will be on the LCO. The public needs to know the big picture. Its not a Brickman problem, a little guy lawn care problem, but rather a DuPont problem. This will lessen the anger, and buy time for DuPont to develop a program to remedy the situation, and buy time, especially for the smaller LCO's and landscaping companies who won't have the resources a Brickman may have to problem solve...

ted putnam
06-11-2011, 01:40 AM
All I can say is WOW, that's really sad....

I'm glad we don't use imprellis on warm season turf. Good Luck to all of you that might end up with upset customers.

grassman177
06-11-2011, 08:20 AM
wow man, glad my trees dont look like that. what was the app date of those lawns in the photos above?

Airborne Toxic
06-11-2011, 09:35 AM
Application dates vary. Most of the damage I have personally witnessed was sprayed approximately 4-6 weeks ago. I was told of some damage on a property that was sprayed 7-10 days ago, but I haven't personally observed that property. What is challenging is the lack of consistency even among trees planted in close proximity where is absolutely no reason to assume a change in application pattern by the applicator.

I have said before, I have my opinions on the matter, but adding to the speculation in front of a statement from DuPont dosen't do anybody any good. The fact is, everybody will be impacted one way or another, even if you personally don't have any dead/damaged trees. Once this becomes public, the negative press will affect the entire industry, and environmentalist activists will just all over the story. Statewide associations will need to get in front of this and develop a plan to educate homeowners and those affected that ultimately this is a problem with the manufacturer. The quicker the public realizes it's not just a "me" problem, the outrage will shift from the LCO.

BuckeyeSales
06-11-2011, 12:45 PM
Took these in Columbus. May be in the general vicinity of where Airborne Toxic took his. I am not a landscaper but I was told this site was sprayed with Imprellis. I thought it interesting the difference in damage in trees this close.

Being on the outside of this my first impression is that this must have something to do with the amount of rain we had this spring. But hey! No weeds!

LawnGuy73
06-11-2011, 01:36 PM
Took these in Columbus. May be in the general vicinity of where Airborne Toxic took his. I am not a landscaper but I was told this site was sprayed with Imprellis. I thought it interesting the difference in damage in trees this close.

Being on the outside of this my first impression is that this must have something to do with the amount of rain we had this spring. But hey! No weeds!

That's a major problem.
Posted via Mobile Device

DA Quality Lawn & YS
06-11-2011, 02:19 PM
Those little areas should never have been blanket treated in the first place. Should have been just lightly spot sprayed with chem of choice.

GravelyGuy
06-11-2011, 02:28 PM
DA, why are you such a fanboy for imprelis? There is obviously major problems here. Dupont has just made a lot of applicators look careless.
Posted via Mobile Device

Grassworks Inc.
06-11-2011, 02:48 PM
Those little areas should never have been blanket treated in the first place. Should have been just lightly spot sprayed with chem of choice.

Just curious. How long have you been doing this and how much volume do you do?
And what if the chemical of choice was imprelis?

RABBITMAN11
06-11-2011, 03:09 PM
Took these in Columbus. May be in the general vicinity of where Airborne Toxic took his. I am not a landscaper but I was told this site was sprayed with Imprellis. I thought it interesting the difference in damage in trees this close.

Being on the outside of this my first impression is that this must have something to do with the amount of rain we had this spring. But hey! No weeds!

I may very well be that it was not sprayed under the trees... Rather herbicide run off from the slope...Because on a yard that i have damage its run off from a hill. We never sprayed under or near the Norways or White pines

mdlwn1
06-11-2011, 04:56 PM
Those little areas should never have been blanket treated in the first place. Should have been just lightly spot sprayed with chem of choice.

I haven't seen a pic yet where applicator error was not a HUGE part of the problem.

garydale
06-11-2011, 05:10 PM
Are the Pines in the last picture Austrian?(Pinus nigra)
I don't believe that pine has been show with damage before.

americanlawn
06-11-2011, 08:15 PM
Been using tip n pours since 1979. They are close but not 100% accurate. Also, residual product can be left on the sides of the bottle. I was thinking more like the injection tube which Tenacity uses. With the low volume of Imprellis, even 1/4 ounce can even make a difference (cost & accuracy).

dude that was tip and pours are for i gave my guys 20 oz a day in a tip n pour was the most easy thing evr this stuff was a magic bullet..too good or bad however you look at it

Greenery
06-11-2011, 08:23 PM
I haven't seen a pic yet where applicator error was not a HUGE part of the problem.

Would you mind pointing out all these HUGE applicator errors that are causing the damage. I guess just looking at a pic on the internet they aren't obvious to me.
How long have you been doing this and how much pesticide damage have you seen in your time in the industry?

Posted via Mobile Device

mdlwn1
06-11-2011, 09:17 PM
I've been doing this for a while...lol Look at the pics. Improper app. 1st of all...you don't blanket spray weed control under pines and spruces (as well as many others)..Each one of those pics shows exactly THAT....you spot spray where needed. Improper product selection... Secondly...I don't see any new seed growing where it was sprayed, so why was imprellis be used to begin with? Finally...you don't ever spray anything on or under anything that is under stress..especially when planted above grade with a mulch volcano.

RABBITMAN11
06-11-2011, 09:37 PM
I've been doing this for a while...lol Look at the pics. Improper app. 1st of all...you don't blanket spray weed control under pines and spruces (as well as many others)..Each one of those pics shows exactly THAT....you spot spray where needed. Improper product selection... Secondly...I don't see any new seed growing where it was sprayed, so why was imprellis be used to begin with? Finally...you don't ever spray anything on or under anything that is under stress..especially when planted above grade with a mulch volcano.

How do you know it was blanket sprayed under the trees?

jasontimm
06-11-2011, 11:55 PM
DA, why are you such a fanboy for imprelis? There is obviously major problems here. Dupont has just made a lot of applicators look careless.
Posted via Mobile Device

Because he has a relative that works for Dupont.

And we sure do have a lot of pros on this site, being able to look at a couple of pictures and being able to declare that it was applicator error :hammerhead:

djagusch
06-12-2011, 12:01 AM
Because he has a relative that works for Dupont.

And we sure do have a lot of pros on this site, being able to look at a couple of pictures and being able to declare that it was applicator error :hammerhead:

And found a way to get it discounted greartly.
Posted via Mobile Device

mikesturf
06-12-2011, 08:33 AM
I may very well be that it was not sprayed under the trees... Rather herbicide run off from the slope...Because on a yard that i have damage its run off from a hill. We never sprayed under or near the Norways or White pines

These are quotes from the Imprelis label:

"This product is classified as having high potential for reaching surface water via runoff for several months after application."
"Runoff of this product will be reduced by avoiding applications
when rainfall is forecasted to occur within 48 hours."

I looks like if you applied Imprelis and it rained 48 hours after applying, and stayed away from the trees, you could still get damage.

grassman177
06-12-2011, 08:38 AM
Are the Pines in the last picture Austrian?(Pinus nigra)
I don't believe that pine has been show with damage before.

true, there are no reports of it and i have plenty of them next to white pines that are doing fine while the whites are hurting. looks like blight finally cought up with those austrians, or nematodes

grassman177
06-12-2011, 08:42 AM
I've been doing this for a while...lol Look at the pics. Improper app. 1st of all...you don't blanket spray weed control under pines and spruces (as well as many others)..Each one of those pics shows exactly THAT....you spot spray where needed. Improper product selection... Secondly...I don't see any new seed growing where it was sprayed, so why was imprellis be used to begin with? Finally...you don't ever spray anything on or under anything that is under stress..especially when planted above grade with a mulch volcano.

Really!! pretty lame ideas there. we spray under pines all the time and have no labels telling us not to. never an issue. in fact, i have never had any issue with any herbicide unless drift got on say a flower or something like that. never a tree, yet alone like this damage. water amounts and soil have everthing to do with the amount of damage being seen.

oh, and it is not designed JUST for seeding, it has been marketed on this site even as the cure all weed control for all areas and ocasions. the label says nothing to the contrary either, i have read it about 10 times.

RodneyK
06-12-2011, 09:36 AM
Subject: Imprelis - Ohio State



fyi, imprelis...today's Buckeye Yard & Garden Line



BUCKEYE YARD AND GARDEN LINE 2011-10

06/09/11



A. NORWAY SPRUCE AND WHITE PINE PROBLEMS. Numerous calls came in to Extension offices throughout Ohio in the past week from landscapes, commercial plantings, and golf courses concerning issues with Norway spruces as well as white pines. The symptoms on Norway spruce include significant needle twisting and browning, terminal curling and drooping on new growth, and in some cases needle browning and twisting on older growth. These symptoms are different from earlier Norway spruce symptoms this spring (total or sectional dieback) presumed to be associated with weather conditions over a number of months.



There are a number of unanswered questions relative to this new damage as to: why there is such variability of injury, the potential for the plants to recover, the range of host plants that are affected, whether or not environmental conditions this spring or last fall contributed to the problem, etc. From what OSUE BYGLers have seen, a common denominator of this particular damage on these samples appears to be an association with turfgrass applications of the herbicide Imprelis.



This post-emergent, low-volume broadleaf herbicide from DuPont is a highly effective product that is being used by applicators for the first time in the field this year. It is a new subclass of pyrimidine carboxylic acid herbicide, named aminocyclopyrachlor. From the samples sent to Extension offices and labs and subsequent field visits to look at symptoms, this looks to be a significant problem with, as noted, many unanswered questions. Research and trials on the use of this chemical for turf care has been extensive, but widespread field use and experience is in early stages.



Damage noted this past week during field visits and from reports of damage from e-mails, phone calls, and images indicate variable damage of affected plants in group plantings. At one site, there was significant browning and distortion on over 10% of the Norway spruces planted on a large mound. Some effects were obvious on over half of these spruces, and on some spruces, over 50% of the foliage had browned as of the time of observation. BYGL writers will update readers and others as more is learned. In addition, OSUE staff will monitor certain sites to get a handle on plant recovery, make new site visits to the extent needed and possible, update a list of hosts where problems have been noted, and will forward additional information from other sources as obtained.



Please note that the Ohio State University C. Wayne Ellett Plant and Pest Diagnostic Clinic (CWEPPDC) can evaluate samples for evidence of disease and insect damage, but do not do chemical residue testing.

pieperlc
06-12-2011, 10:19 AM
In what kind if soils are you guys seeing this damage? I've seen several pictures of the trees being planted on hills. Any Flatland damage?

Posted via Mobile Device

lawn king
06-12-2011, 10:32 AM
At this point i think its safe to say there are serious issues with imprelis! If you have not done so, you shoud stop using this herbicide! I have only used it as a spot spray product @ 3 ml per k. I see no damage at present, but im not going to use any more until dupont figures this out. I had this (too good to be true) premonition on imprelis right from the get go?

HayBay
06-12-2011, 10:50 AM
There are a couple of university extensions talking about this, one extension offered an email address. - Penn State

For more information from Dupont about potential Imprelis damage contact Karen.Hartman@usa.dupont.com

Its sad to see all that damage to those wonderful trees.

JoJo1990
06-12-2011, 12:27 PM
I sent an email to DuPont several days ago and have not received a reply to even indicate they received my message. I'm not impressed.

DA Quality Lawn & YS
06-12-2011, 12:57 PM
Because he has a relative that works for Dupont.

And we sure do have a lot of pros on this site, being able to look at a couple of pictures and being able to declare that it was applicator error :hammerhead:

Indirectly - he actually works for Pioneer has nothing to do with this product nor have I gotten any benefit or reduced product price from him.

I am just waiting for the truth to come out thats all, not fly off the handle.

BuckeyeSales
06-12-2011, 01:36 PM
The site I took pictures of is a site they have had for more than 6 years. There was no need to blanket spray and they did not blanket spray. They spot sprayed. That may also be the reason trees near each other are not showing same effects. I will post a few more pictures from the same site soon.

BuckeyeSales
06-12-2011, 01:52 PM
More pictures from same site.

Grassworks Inc.
06-12-2011, 03:13 PM
From Lawn and Landscape Magazine:

"DuPont launches new herbicide
Features - Industry News

Imprelis offers LCOs a high level of control with a reduced environmental impact.


March 14, 2011

SARASOTA, Fla. – About 100 lawn care operators gathered on the Gulf Coast of Florida in January to learn more about Imprelis, DuPont Professional Products’ latest introduction in the herbicide segment.

The introduction of Imprelis post-emergent broadleaf herbicide adds to DuPont’s expanding portfolio of green industry products and offers LCOs a high level of control with a reduced environmental impact.

“We’ve all seen this trend for a long time. Consumers want high-performance, high-quality products that have improved environmental profiles,” said Mike McDermott, DuPont’s global business manager.

Imprelis herbicide controls a wide range of broadleaf weeds with a new active ingredient – aptexor – and a new subclass of the carboxylic acid herbicides. The new AI allows LCOs to control weeds with much smaller applications of product: 4.5 fluid ounces (or 0.07 lbs.) per acre.


HOW IT WORKS.
Bruce Steward, turf and ornamental product development manager for DuPont, said LCOs can “sometimes feel like you’re somewhat handcuffed” when it comes to broadleaf weed control – they’ve got to factor in temperature and weather restrictions, mowing and reseeding timing when considering what to apply and when to apply it.

Imprelis offers LCOs the following benefits:

•They can reseed immediately before or after (on cool-season grasses).
•The application is rainfast immediately. Rainfall or irrigation is not going to hurt the product. “It’s actually going to help it” get to roots better, Steward said.
•There are no restrictions on temperature during application.
•The herbicide is safe on cool season and some warm season grasses.
•Limited PPE is required – no goggles or gloves.
•The herbicide controls common and hard-to-control weeds in three to four weeks and is active at very low concentrations, Steward said.


IN THE FIELD.
Since 2006, universities and lawn care operators have completed more than 400 field trials with Imprelis. Mark Utendorf, owner of Emerald Lawn Care in Arlington Heights, Ill., spoke to meeting attendees about his experience using the new product to handle wild violets and creeping Charlie (ground ivy) in nearly 30 suburban Chicago lawns.

“If violets and creeping Charlie are problems, I would definitely do it. The results we saw were great,” Utendorf said, citing Imprelis’ near-perfect control of the two hard-to-control weeds.He said he also liked the low application rate, which means he no longer has to buy and store 55-gallon barrels of product, or pallets of other supplements to target specific weeds.

“The joy of this product is you don’t have to screw around,” he said.

Utendorf uses the reduced environmental footprint – less product applied and less plastic waste from bottles – as green messaging on his website, in phone messages and on invoices left with customers. “We’re definitely talking about it,” he said.


RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT.
Mark Coffelt, global development manager for DuPont, said the company is continually investing in research and development of new and innovative products for the turft and ornamental markets.

In 2008, DuPont spent hundreds of millions of dollars on R&D, Coffelt said. And where it typically takes a decade or longer to bring a new chemistry to market, Imprelis moved from the lab bench to EPA approval in just eight.

The release of Imprelis this winter follows the launch of Acelepryn insecticide in 2008. The two products are the first in a line-up of products from DuPont that are environmentally sound and have innovative modes of action. Acelepryn, which targets white grubs and other surface-feeding insects like billbugs and webworms, is the grub control product to have been granted reduced-risk status by the EPA for applications on turfgrass. It’s mode of action targets insects’ muscles, not their nervous systems, and therefore poses much less of a risk to non-target species.

LCOs can expect to see Imprelis impregnated on fertilizer in 2012 or early 2013. Coffelt said in the next few years, DuPont will bring even more products to the turf and ornamental markets, including two herbicides, two fungicides and an insecticide. L&L"


I highlighted some parts. First, DuPont says rainfall enhances performance. The second part was to answer the question posted as to why you would use Imprelis if the turf in question wasn't seeded.
Still think Imprelis will be on dry fert next year? And how many will purchase and use the new DuPont T&O products based on how they handle the Imprelis situation?

grassman177
06-12-2011, 05:16 PM
that is the kind of promotion i was talking about.

mrmean
06-13-2011, 05:15 PM
Imprelis was applied to my lawn and trees are taking a hit. I will try to post pics tonight. Spruces and Maple trees. Even the lawn itself seems to be having issues...:cry:

ISUTurf
06-13-2011, 05:16 PM
I totally agree. I have also heard about significant damage here in central Iowa. This was a classic example of "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is". With how active this chemical is systemically I have a feeling there is going to be major problems with off target damage.

I have only used this product one time on a soccer field that I seeded and I thought that would be its best use... BUT it misses knotweed! Sorry DuPont but there are still better products out there.



Holy Cow. No wonder I chose to let others try Imprellis before we bought it. The trees in the pics look like "sick puppies". Drooping branches is not a good sign whatsoever, cuz this usually means the entire plant (tree) is affected. A few brown needles are normal and expected (lower branches & maybe on the north side), but not at the top of the tree.

BTW, all trees in the pine family have a whirl vascular system, so damaging the branches on one side of the tree does not coincide with the root system on the same side. Same with soils - all trees in the pine family (firs, spruces, pines) prefer a well-drained soil -- this could be a contributing factor. They also prefer full sun, which the trees in the pics have >> Nuther reason why I suspect "Imprellis at work".

The "drip line" label is totally idiotic IMO >> Most established trees (conifer & deciduous) have most of their "feeder roots" (active roots) outside & well beyond the "drip line". Law suites coming down the pike? I'd bet money on it if the above pics & poster's information are accurate. Even the new candles/needles were affected -- this pretty much closes the deal. BTW, nice pics.

my 2 cents

RABBITMAN11
06-13-2011, 05:40 PM
I'm impressed with weed control, but tree damage is a no go....five more properties today had damage. One customer said no more apps until something comes of the matter. Thats whats going to really hurt...losing customers

americanlawn
06-13-2011, 05:52 PM
ISUTurf - I'm glad to hear you did not use it around trees. Spruce trees in Iowa are still suffering from last year's record rainfalls (root damage). I didn't know Imprellis would not control knotweed - thanks fior the info. We've been applying Mecamine-D and/or Chaser Turf (plus LI700). We "fry" knotweed, oxalis, creeping Charlie, and some violets, and other hard-to-kill weeds. So far we've had to replace 6 tomato plants, but that's it. No plants were actually sprayed, it was from volitization. (I wonder why folks plant tomatoes where creeping Charlie exists). :confused:

I figure you too got rained out today. Severe storms arrived here about 11:00 this morning. I drove back to our shop at 25 mph on I-80. The heaviest rain only lasted about 2 hours, but then 40 mph winds have continued the rest of today + off & on light rains. The weather forecasters just can't get anything right. I guess they cover their butt by always saying a "chance" of rain. :hammerhead:

We will attend the Iowa Turfgrass Field Day this summer, and I plan to ask many questions regarding Imprellis damage. This Imprellis "issue" reminds me of using' Sahara' (soil sterilent) near trees.

Thanks for the info, Larry :waving:

americanlawn
06-13-2011, 06:14 PM
So far it appears to be a raw deal created by the manufacturer. I'm no rocket scientist, but it seems similar to 2 events that happened in our market.

a) 3 years ago or so, a local LCO totally killed about 300 lawns cuz they used Roundup instead of BWC. They ended up reseeding the lawns.

b) 20 years ago or so, another company mistakenly used a soil sterilent instead of BWC and killed over 400 lawns. Removing soil, adding activated charcoal, resodding was involved with this one.

The above 2 examples were the LCO's fault. This "Imprellis thing" is a whole 'nuther deal. Honest, hard-working folks trusted Dupont. I also figure guys applied it at the correct rate (cuz it's expensive).

It still amazes me that Dupont merely says to not apply within the "dripline"......problem is, most "feeder roots" (tender roots) grow well beyind the dripline. :confused::confused::confused:

I'm impressed with weed control, but tree damage is a no go....five more properties today had damage. One customer said no more apps until something comes of the matter. Thats whats going to really hurt...losing customers

mrmean
06-13-2011, 07:54 PM
Result of Imprelis. Maple trees and Spruces. Also, seems like the lawn may have been affected too...Seems to be splotchy where weeds were concentrated.

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h74/tdiehl1/DSC_0002.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h74/tdiehl1/DSC_0001.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h74/tdiehl1/DSC_0004.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h74/tdiehl1/DSC_0005.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h74/tdiehl1/DSC_0006.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h74/tdiehl1/DSC_0008.jpg

greenking
06-13-2011, 09:12 PM
Yeah, up here in MN we're just starting to see some damage, so far it seems to be only spruces on our customers property, we've stopped using it and are switching back to triplet for now. It's kind of ironic when finding out about Imprellis, I just kept telling myself it sounds too good to be true and now we're figuring it out, it's unfortunate, I loved the results we were seeing with wild violets and creeping charlie. Maybe with any luck they can just tweak their formula and eliminate the whole tree killing aspect of it.

PSUTURFGEEK
06-13-2011, 09:37 PM
I have looked at many properties over the last couple weeks. All of these were treated with only Imprellis and most were 4-1-11 to 4-22-11 applications here in Central PA.
The damage is unreal!! most of the damage is to coniferous trees. The Dupont R&D staff has been in the field taking all kinds of samples in our area as well. I started to recommend staying away from Imprellis a few months ago after some studies came out about it being similar to confront and the possibility of it not being labeled for residential use in the very near future.

ICT Bill
06-13-2011, 11:18 PM
I told you 2 years ago when it came out

and look out for heritage too, killing almost all of the oaks that it gets next too

grassman177
06-13-2011, 11:34 PM
heritage fungicide??? if so, i have sprayed it tons of times under oaks without issues.

what are you refering to ict bill

grassman177
06-13-2011, 11:36 PM
this is super bad stuff with this herbicide. the control is astounding, if it did not kill trees. i hope that the ones we have with issues will stop getting worse and be ok. i dont think my customer would care if it was dupont or me, and i will get the axe anyway. not cool, i will sue the crap our of dupont for the lost income for that one if it gets that far.

mikesturf
06-14-2011, 12:44 AM
this is super bad stuff with this herbicide. the control is astounding, if it did not kill trees. i hope that the ones we have with issues will stop getting worse and be ok. i dont think my customer would care if it was dupont or me, and i will get the axe anyway. not cool, i will sue the crap our of dupont for the lost income for that one if it gets that far.

This is why DuPont is not making any statements. All the lawyers are reading and re-reading the Imprelis label looking for outs, etc. Anything they say can and will be used in court.

ted putnam
06-14-2011, 01:56 AM
heritage fungicide??? if so, i have sprayed it tons of times under oaks without issues.

what are you refering to ict bill

Ditto here on grassmans statement Bill.

I use Heritage on Fairy Ring in Zoysia and St. Aug. Usually it is under or very near Oak Trees. I've never had an issue.

Please explain further if you don't mind....

MnLefty
06-14-2011, 08:51 AM
This is why DuPont is not making any statements. All the lawyers are reading and re-reading the Imprelis label looking for outs, etc. Anything they say can and will be used in court.

Exactly. Until their army of lawyers can develop their best plan of action balancing not giving away the farm but still trying to do the right thing by their customers, they cannot really admit to anything. That's why there has been no formal statement, and their individual responses to inquiries have only been confirming "there have been reports of damage and we are investigating".

I would guess they also have to be careful about how early and widespread they are with any type of press release, as I'm sure there are plenty of less than honest folks out there who will try to use a situation like this to get new trees or monetary damages even in situations where imprelis is NOT to blame... I wouldn't put it past some people to go spray imprelis purposely around some trees that are already bad/lost in order to blame Dupont.

White Gardens
06-14-2011, 11:45 AM
Yeah, up here in MN we're just starting to see some damage, so far it seems to be only spruces on our customers property, we've stopped using it and are switching back to triplet for now. It's kind of ironic when finding out about Imprellis, I just kept telling myself it sounds too good to be true and now we're figuring it out, it's unfortunate, I loved the results we were seeing with wild violets and creeping charlie. Maybe with any luck they can just tweak their formula and eliminate the whole tree killing aspect of it.

Personally I doubt that will happen. In my honest opinion I think we've seen the last of Imprelis.

Dupont also has a couple of other chemicals that they've made from the Carboxyl group that imprelis belongs to. Those chemicals are made for road-side use and is to help control woody/weedy brush. That right there should be a red-flag in itself about what carboxylic acids will do to off target species.

Even though the chemical chain of the product is "safer" from a toxicity standpoint, it's way to mobile in the soil until it breaks down into H20. Even using something similar in road sides might end up causing lots of problems.

The only thing I can see saving Imprelis is that there might have been a refinement problem in the creation of batches. That or there is some tainted batches that were created incorrectly.

Ultimately though, DuPont really needs to start making some statements or something of the nature to help the LCO's deal with their clients and help them to retain customers. This is going to be bad for those who have used it and gotten damage to off-target vegetation.

I only sprayed two yards with it. One lawn has two 50 foot Norway Spruces on it and just yesterday I noticed browning on some of the needle tips. Even though I can't say yet that it is Imprelis that has caused this as it's too soon to tell, but the damage looks similar to the photos that people have been posting.

And another thought. I have a feeling any tree/shrub that is showing damage is toast and won't recover. The AI in Imprelis is supposed to concentrate in the meristem region of the plants as they uptake the chemical.

HayBay
06-14-2011, 02:51 PM
Here is some info from an EPA Memo in January 2010:
Someone might find it useful

4.4 Review of Incident Data
As of October 30, 2009, aminocyclopyrachlor had not yet been included in the EllS database for ecological incidents. However, the lack of reported incidents does not preclude potential risks to terrestrial and aquatic non-target organisms. An investigation of the EllS database shows that concerns have been raised with a similar class of herbicides, the pyridine carboxylic acids. Several incidents have been reported involving residues of clopyralid, picloram, and aminopyralid in compost causing crop injury; some of these
incidents have caused regulatory actions to be taken. Incidents involving aminopyralid in the United Kingdom resulted in a temporary suspension of sales of products containing aminopyralid. Incidents involving clopyralid resulted in the state of Washington banninf it from use on lawns and turf; the registrant subsequently voluntarily cancelled clopyralid's use on lawns
in Washington. Similarly, the California Department of Pesticide regulation cancelled clopyralid's uses on residential lawns. Residues detected in lawn clippings and compos have prompted other states to be on alert for potential issues involving these types of herbicides.

Although aminocyclopyrachlor belongs to the pyrimidine carboxylic acids family, it is persistent, systemic, and has high seedling emergence toxicity. Therefore, aminocyclopyrachlor residues may end up in treated plant materials used in compost or for feed for animals whose maure is
used in compost, which has the potential to cause similar incidents as those reported for aminopyralid, picloram, and clopyralid.

precca
06-14-2011, 04:08 PM
I am not a lawn service, but live in a neighborhood that was recently sprayed with Imprelis to kill the weeds. Weeds are gone, however so is EVERY Spruce in the neighborhood! We are talking 20+ mature trees dead. Also, the pine candles are shriveling up and the arborvatae nearby is a gonner too. Please be VERY careful using this product - do not get anywhere near evergreens!

Grassworks Inc.
06-14-2011, 04:48 PM
Which neighborhood?

precca
06-14-2011, 04:49 PM
Brinkman sprayed using Imprelis in the Spring. These evergreens were all very healthy and vibrant before the spray. Now they are dead. All the pines and spruces in my yard that were not in the common area spray zone are still doing well - only those in the Imprelis treatment zone are dead. Here are some pictures I just took - it's very sad.

precca
06-14-2011, 04:50 PM
Bayard Estates in Kennett Square, PA.

Grassworks Inc.
06-14-2011, 05:29 PM
Did the hot weather last week trigger it? I was in Bayard Estates last Monday (6/6) to check on a customer on Sassafras and everything looked ok between the entrance and Sassafras. Are those farther in the back?

precca
06-14-2011, 05:38 PM
We are by the pumping station in the back. They started dying a few weeks ago and were reported to the association by me. Since then, the Spruces in the front on the hill are dying too. Also check out all the pines now. Their candles are browning and the trees are starting to show signs of stress. We have lots of evergreens in the common areas and all are dying or stressed throughout the neighborhood. I sent a comment to DuPont suggesting they post a warning on this product before other neighborhoods experience the same sad fate.

justanotherhomeowner
06-14-2011, 05:57 PM
Hi everyone, I found this post after searching imprelis on google. I am one of the many unfortunate homeowners who had imprelis sprayed by a local turf management company. I took some quick pictures today. I am noticing damage on Norway Spruce, Blue Spruce, and Thuja Green Giants. The spruces show the worst damage while the thujas just show burnt tips. I guess only time will tell how bad it will get.

http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x438/justanotherhomeowner/Imprelis/DSCF6183.jpg

http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x438/justanotherhomeowner/Imprelis/DSCF6195.jpg

http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x438/justanotherhomeowner/Imprelis/DSCF6206.jpg

http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x438/justanotherhomeowner/Imprelis/DSCF6188.jpg

http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x438/justanotherhomeowner/Imprelis/DSCF6174.jpg


The rest of the album can be found at:

http://s1181.photobucket.com/albums/x438/justanotherhomeowner/Imprelis/

americanlawn
06-14-2011, 06:52 PM
When judging the overall health of all trees in the pine family, we normally examine the newest growth, because that indicates what has occurred most recently. In this case, it appears to be recent damage which has been trans-located to the new growth (and more so in some instances). After viewing all the posted pics, I know of no insect or disease that could cause this sort of damage. I've been treating trees since the late 70's + graduate horticulturist. I've never seen anything like this...even soil sterilent damage is different. my 2 cents

grassman177
06-14-2011, 09:59 PM
exactly larry, and you have many years on me!! i am still almost dumbfounded with this. like a bad dream to me. i asked the rep that i contacted to visit my sites with damage and collect samples and help me with some sort of explanation to the HOA and i have not recieved any word back. how not cool. this sort of matter DOES require imediate reply and action. they are Fing this up even worse at this point. I have never had damages other than the simple flowers or something, but never trees or shrubs. i have used many a chemical including confront and never had issues of any kind.

Penncare
06-14-2011, 10:09 PM
Oh my it would be so nice to be the first firm to have the class action certified. Though it may be painful, the only people who will win in this dispute will be lawyers.

americanlawn
06-14-2011, 10:26 PM
Back in the old ChemScape days in Texas, we would spray all woody plants (trees, shrubs, ground cover, vines) with 5 pesticides (2 insecticides, 2 fungicides, and one miticide, plus poly N to buffer the pH, as well as a spreader sticker). Never a problem.

This Imprellis thing is a no brainer to me. I don't think I'm sticking my neck out whatsoever. Just seeing the photos and hearing from local folks is enough for me.

Ditto with grassman

exactly larry, and you have many years on me!! i am still almost dumbfounded with this. like a bad dream to me. i asked the rep that i contacted to visit my sites with damage and collect samples and help me with some sort of explanation to the HOA and i have not recieved any word back. how not cool. this sort of matter DOES require imediate reply and action. they are Fing this up even worse at this point. I have never had damages other than the simple flowers or something, but never trees or shrubs. i have used many a chemical including confront and never had issues of any kind.

DA Quality Lawn & YS
06-14-2011, 11:06 PM
You guys that are seeing the damage may want to keep the ph # for your insurance co. handy so you can file PD claims if DuPont does not follow up very timely. Unfortunately its the reputations are are going to take the hit and no one needs that.

mike174
06-15-2011, 12:48 AM
exactly larry, and you have many years on me!! i am still almost dumbfounded with this. like a bad dream to me. i asked the rep that i contacted to visit my sites with damage and collect samples and help me with some sort of explanation to the HOA and i have not recieved any word back. how not cool. this sort of matter DOES require imediate reply and action. they are Fing this up even worse at this point. I have never had damages other than the simple flowers or something, but never trees or shrubs. i have used many a chemical including confront and never had issues of any kind.

Grassman, I'm sorry to hear about damage. It sounded like you weren't having problems with Imprellis until recently. I had a feeling this was too good to be true. Like I said earlier this year....treat it like a new restaurant. Wait for the reviews. No one wants to be stuck in the bathroom for 2 days with the $hit$. I hope it all works out for you. Please keep posting updates. Thanks. Mike

jbturf
06-15-2011, 08:22 PM
well ive joined the club

had a couple of questionable occurances, but today i saw
some unmistakable damage, on what i think are white pines
about 20-25' tall-- this is new customer i just picked up and
was blanket sprayed with imprellis early may- 4.5oz/acre rate

i purchased my imprellis jug from jdl,
they gave me a damage complaint form to fill out
to document this

any of you heard back from a dupont rep yet?

RABBITMAN11
06-15-2011, 08:36 PM
Spoke to a rep today. He said they where going to make a statement by email to those who have made a formal complaint. He had no.answers.for me..
Posted via Mobile Device

mrmean
06-16-2011, 11:01 AM
Article
http://www.theindychannel.com/news/28238347/detail.html

grassman177
06-16-2011, 03:04 PM
Grassman, I'm sorry to hear about damage. It sounded like you weren't having problems with Imprellis until recently. I had a feeling this was too good to be true. Like I said earlier this year....treat it like a new restaurant. Wait for the reviews. No one wants to be stuck in the bathroom for 2 days with the $hit$. I hope it all works out for you. Please keep posting updates. Thanks. Mike

you are right, i had no damages until about week 5.5-6 after application. i await a meeting on site with the rep who said he was going to call today, but i have not heard anything yet. i bet he is super busy with all this mess.

BuckeyeSales
06-16-2011, 07:09 PM
Received this email today from Michigan Green Industry Association



ALERT - Imprelis Herbicide Injury to Evergreens

Kevin Frank, Michigan State University

There have been several reports from both outside and within the state of Michigan of herbicide injury on Norway spruce, Colorado spruce, Austrian pine, and white pine following application of the turfgrass herbicide Imprelis (a.i. aminocyclopyrachlor). Damaged trees have symptoms consistent with growth regulator type herbicides. Injury includes curling and twisting of new growth. Pictures and comments of damage observed in Indiana can be viewed at: www.ppdl.purdue.edu/PPDL/hot11/6-10.html.

DuPont is in the process of investigating the issue and their initial conclusions indicate that in most cases Imprelis was applied in combination with other pre- or post-emergence herbicides or liquid fertilizer. Most Imprelis applications have not resulted in damage to spruce or pine but obviously cases of damage cause alarm when dealing with a newly released herbicide. DuPont advises to not apply Imprelis “where Norway Spruce or White Pine are present, or in close proximity to, the property to be treated.” Furthermore, DuPont advises, “when applying Imprelis be careful that no spray treatment, drift, or runoff occurs that could make contact with trees, shrubs, and other desirable plants, and stay well away from exposed roots and the rootzone of trees and shrubs.” The reported cases from Indiana indicate that this may not be a simple herbicide drift issue but rather from root uptake. If that is the case it would be critical to keep applications away from the rootzones of non-target trees and ornaments. As with any pesticide application always make sure to read and follow label directions.

jbturf
06-16-2011, 08:13 PM
so has aminocyclopyrachlor been positively
identified in the samples of damaged limbs collected?

or have we already moved beyond that stage?

i may contact umass xtens. and see if they can perform this test

phasthound
06-16-2011, 08:16 PM
Received this email today from Michigan Green Industry Association
DuPont is in the process of investigating the issue and their initial conclusions indicate that in most cases Imprelis was applied in combination with other pre- or post-emergence herbicides or liquid fertilizer.

Does this apply to those of you with damage? Is there anything on the label that states not to do this?

My main concern of unintended consequence of using Imprelis is with our water supply as the label clearly states:

ENVIRONMENTAL HAZARDS
Do not apply directly to water, or to areas where
surface water is present, or to intertidal areas below the
mean high water mark. Do not contaminate water
when disposing of equipment washwaters or rinsate.
Surface water advisory:
This product may impact surface water quality due
to runoff of rain water. This is especially true for
poorly draining soils and soils with shallow ground
water. This product is classified as having high
potential for reaching surface water via runoff for
several months after application. A level, wellmaintained
vegetative buffer strip between areas to
which this product is applied and surface water
features such as ponds, streams, and springs will
reduce the potential loading of aminocyclopyrachlor
from runoff water and sediment. Runoff of
this product will be reduced by avoiding applications
when rainfall is forecasted to occur within 48
hours.
Groundwater advisory:Aminocyclopyrachlor has properties and characteristics
associated with chemicals detected in ground
water. This chemical may leach into ground water
if used in areas where soils are permeable, particularly
where the water table is shallow.

How many applicators actually read this and take it into consideration when applying it? How many think weed control is more important than the water we drink? How many know how much of our tax money is spent on cleaning up our water? How many didn't read this post becasue it is too long?

White Gardens
06-16-2011, 09:04 PM
I read it. By law we are supposed to read the label cover to cover and have that label with us at all times when applying the chemical.

What about all the " Safer " advantages of this product that they were touting.

When you look at the chemical properties and how it changes when it breaks down, you'd expect it to be environmentally friendlier.

Supposedly it breaks down to H2O as it's final composition. But if that is truly the case, how toxic is it before that point?

CHARLES CUE
06-16-2011, 09:25 PM
Does this apply to those of you with damage? Is there anything on the label that states not to do this?

My main concern of unintended consequence of using Imprelis is with our water supply as the label clearly states:

ENVIRONMENTAL HAZARDS
Do not apply directly to water, or to areas where
surface water is present, or to intertidal areas below the
mean high water mark. Do not contaminate water
when disposing of equipment washwaters or rinsate.
Surface water advisory:
This product may impact surface water quality due
to runoff of rain water. This is especially true for
poorly draining soils and soils with shallow ground
water. This product is classified as having high
potential for reaching surface water via runoff for
several months after application. A level, wellmaintained
vegetative buffer strip between areas to
which this product is applied and surface water
features such as ponds, streams, and springs will
reduce the potential loading of aminocyclopyrachlor
from runoff water and sediment. Runoff of
this product will be reduced by avoiding applications
when rainfall is forecasted to occur within 48
hours.
Groundwater advisory:Aminocyclopyrachlor has properties and characteristics
associated with chemicals detected in ground
water. This chemical may leach into ground water
if used in areas where soils are permeable, particularly
where the water table is shallow.

How many applicators actually read this and take it into consideration when applying it? How many think weed control is more important than the water we drink? How many know how much of our tax money is spent on cleaning up our water? How many didn't read this post becasue it is too long?

From what i have seen it does not move.

When i went back to do my 2nd app and i noited that the weed were still under the bushes where i had sprayed Around the bushes not under them. There was grass right up to the trunks

If Imprelis would have moved the violets would of not been there. We are only talking about a 2 or 3ft circle under these bushes.

Yes i did read to the very end

Charles Cue

JoJo1990
06-16-2011, 10:52 PM
Those of you that reported damage, especially those that posted photos, can you provide an update a couple of weeks after your initial damage report? Has the injury moved further into older growth of the spruce trees? Any other signs visible as time has passed?

golffan
06-16-2011, 11:35 PM
I used a lot of imprelis this spring. I've had two incidents. In both cases dimension was applied within 10 days of the imprelis. One guy signed up very late but just in time for the dimension. He had a bad weed problem so we moved him up to the front of the weed control cycle. The other case was an estate that had an 0-0-7 dimension but wanted the weed control the next week. Wondering if anyone else applied dimension close to imprelis or is this just a coincidence.

Airborne Toxic
06-16-2011, 11:53 PM
First respone is not too impressive.

grassman177
06-17-2011, 09:18 AM
no, it is worded to make them still look good. but at least they did something right? .......

djagusch
06-17-2011, 10:23 AM
Sounds like they are passing the blame to the applicator mixing it with other products.
Posted via Mobile Device

garydale
06-17-2011, 11:16 AM
Those of you that reported damage, especially those that posted photos, can you provide an update a couple of weeks after your initial damage report? Has the injury moved further into older growth of the spruce trees? Any other signs visible as time has passed?

The attached photos show the progression of damage from 06/02/11 to 06/17/11. Lawn was treated on 04/26/2011.

LawnGuy73
06-17-2011, 01:30 PM
Sounds like they are passing the blame to the applicator mixing it with other products.
Posted via Mobile Device
My thoughts exactly.
Posted via Mobile Device

Grassworks Inc.
06-17-2011, 03:06 PM
Sounds like they are passing the blame to the applicator mixing it with other products.
Posted via Mobile Device

From the label:
"IMPRELIS™ herbicide may be tank-mixed with other
pesticides and liquid fertilizers (including liquid iron
products)."

jbturf
06-17-2011, 03:21 PM
just got a call from the dupont rep for my area,

pretty much the same as you all have heard,
they may come next week to inspect the sites

but he said they visit some sites already for other issues,
and noticed spruce and pine present in areas treated with imprelis
and saw no damage

ive only seen these symptoms on 2 properties at this time,
and this is outa about 350 i treat, and these 2 both got blanket applications
of imprelis - only my new accounts that needed it got blanket sprayed
so this is maybe 5 properties

it just seems if it were some other variable, i would be seeing it at other sites

\
btw- at application my imprelis was mixed with water only, nothing else

Grassworks Inc.
06-17-2011, 03:27 PM
Are any applicator's using a z-spray or permagreen seeing damage on properties where imprelis was sprayed and a granular fert or fert/pre-emerg was applied? Or is it just us hose jockeys?

RABBITMAN11
06-17-2011, 04:27 PM
check out purdue turf tips for more info New turf tips regarding imprellis

justanotherhomeowner
06-17-2011, 05:30 PM
check out purdue turf tips for more info New turf tips regarding imprellis

Thanks RABBITMAN11, the article is one of the first I have seen that gives any tips on how to manage the damage. Any input/opinions regarding the tips they have given in the article from any of professionals on the board would be greatly appreciated.

article link:

http://www.agry.purdue.edu/turf/tips/2011/06172011_Imprelis.html

sprayboy
06-17-2011, 06:21 PM
My rep told me today that Dupont is in the process of setting up a website and a 800 number.

I would think that Dupont will take care of this if they want to sell lawn products in the future and want to avoid a major class action suit. They will get negative publicity about this no matter what but if they step up to the plate and and do the right thing by paying off these claims I believe they will be just fine. If they don't then maybe a nationwide boycott of their products is in order, by applicators and warehouse's. I think we need to stick together as an industry weather you have used this product or not.

We also have to remember that this is in the early stages and may take some time. Conveying that to the homeowner may not be so simple but we will have to do our best. I don't believe Dupont is going to come out the first day and start paying off.

Soooooooooo..........
How is the best way to communicate?
Explain the situation best you can and give them any links at all from our Universities and print as much info as you can to give them?

Can't just refer them to Dupont caus that will show you don't care.

Any other suggestions?

Fletcher Reede
06-17-2011, 07:13 PM
just made the local news in columbus ohio, that should get the phones ringing

mrmean
06-18-2011, 07:28 AM
Article from my area, Columbus Oh

http://www.10tv.com/live/content/local/stories/2011/06/17/story-columbus-lawn-product-could-kill-trees.html?sid=102
Posted via Mobile Device

EA Quinn
06-18-2011, 07:53 AM
We have been doing blanket spray applications and I have yet to see any damage from imprellis. I have been using it since the 1st week of May. We always avoid tree driplines, so we haven't sprayed anything under from the get go, but I have not seen any damage to date. We are mixing imprellis with dismiss, talstar, merit and dimension.

waglawn
06-18-2011, 01:20 PM
Had my first call last night took a drive this am I have quit counting damaged trees but its gona be hundreds. Been spraying lawns since 1956 have used about everything and have never seen anything close to this. This has me real worried could ruin a lot of good people

grassman177
06-18-2011, 08:32 PM
since 1956, damn how old are you? wow, this might be the most knowledgable guy on lawnsite right here!!! hahah

my white pines after the heavy rains we have had do look much better, following in a way what the reccommended management of that link said, heavy irrigation. i think so.

i tank mixed with nothing at all, just imprellis, and it did damage. they cant blame the applicators on this one, too many issues and such.

i agree with the guy who said dupont could be in serious trouble in the turf market if all avoid buying there products if they dont do right on this damage

americanlawn
06-18-2011, 09:20 PM
I now know that this Imprellis thing is getting out of hand when even Iowa State University issued a warning earlier this week. (ISU is extremely conservative)

I have driven by competitors' accounts during the past 4 weeks or so, and I can easily pick out the ones where Imprellis was used.

http://iaturf.blogspot.com

jasontimm
06-18-2011, 10:44 PM
I called my supplier today and asked him about it, he brushed it off like it was no big deal, and that all trees would recover, needless to say i want very impressed with his response. What really pisses me off is that they never even bothered to call or email me with information on Imperils in regards to the problems with pine trees, i'd still be using it if it wasn't for all the information on Lawnsite. I have not seen any problems with my accounts yet, however i just stopped using it a couple of weeks ago when the news broke on here. Needless to say, i'm not at all happy with the way DuPont and my supplier is handling this, i have a bad feeling a lot of us are going to be hung out to dry.

waglawn
06-18-2011, 11:15 PM
that is what bothers me the most they have known about this for at least a month and never said a word hell everyone would have quit using this if we had known about the tree problem now we have had an other month of applications.

mikesturf
06-19-2011, 10:39 AM
This thread is approaching 14,000 views and it is less than 3 weeks old. This is really affecting a lot of people in a bad way.

Has anyone seen
1. any type of recovery in any trees
2. are the affected trees getting worse
3. has further damage stopped after initial damage seen

waglawn
06-19-2011, 11:44 AM
Those are my questions also. I have only seen injury beginning fri 6/17/11 I would like to know what progression has occurred from any early say, a month ago, damage spotted. Are any damaged trees showing any sign of recovery or is it all bad.

Heidi J.
06-19-2011, 01:25 PM
Had my first call last night took a drive this am I have quit counting damaged trees but its gona be hundreds. Been spraying lawns since 1956 have used about everything and have never seen anything close to this. This has me real worried could ruin a lot of good people

I think you are right. The damage shown on here is devistating. Did you use alot of Imprelis and if so on all your properties?

Sad.

waglawn
06-19-2011, 01:51 PM
our plan had been to use it on a few sites and see results. This decision was made because of the high cost of the product. However we began using it almost everywhere because of its claim of being rain fast when dry. April was so wet that we knew 3way or trimec would be very ineffective. Guess we should have stuck with our first plan but the results were so amazing we couldn't keep from using it

waglawn
06-19-2011, 02:59 PM
Gona lawyer up tomorrow need to find out what NOT to say in public or to customers. Sometimes honesty can come back to haunt you. We don't want to say something that could implicate us all fingers should be pointed at DuPont

americanlawn
06-19-2011, 05:17 PM
I just received yet another update from ISU regarding Imprellis. It featured more pics, links, and examples from all around the Country. Here's one link. It's from Channel 6 News in Indianapolis.

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/28238347/detail.html?taf=ind

grassman177
06-19-2011, 07:12 PM
This thread is approaching 14,000 views and it is less than 3 weeks old. This is really affecting a lot of people in a bad way.

Has anyone seen
1. any type of recovery in any trees
2. are the affected trees getting worse
3. has further damage stopped after initial damage seen

yes, during the hot period over the last two weeks they white pines here got worse and the candles looked totally fried, but then it cooled off and alot of rain over the last few days. when i mowed this property yesterday they looked like they were turning around and have re greened, but still twisted.

makes one think they might just recover, but many of them are not going to be this lucky.

the weed control however is amazing. other than the oxalis i treated in spots two weeks ago, there is simply NO weeds in the lawns i treated.

BuckeyeSales
06-20-2011, 04:02 PM
http://ipmnet.umd.edu/landscape/LndscpAlerts/2011/11Jun17L.pdf

From University of Maryland extension Scroll to Page 7.



We continue to receive emails this week about possible Imprelis
damage on landscape trees. So far we have mostly seen damage
on pines and conifers. We have had a report from one Maryland
landscape company who is seeing some damage on deciduous trees
as shown in the photo to the right.
We have not seen photos of any of the damage listed below, but here
is a report from Tom Ford, Extension Director in Blair County, PA:
In our area we are witnessing injury from root uptake and possibly
drift onto the trunks of young trees. The label requires a 5 foot buffer
around ornamentals during turf applications, but we doubt that this is being followed by the applicators.
We are seeing injury on the following specimens: Norway Spruce, Redbud, Forsythia, Honey Locust, Red
oak, Pin Oak, Silver Maple, Sugar Maple, Bloodgood Japanese maple, Lilac, purple coneflower, Vinca minor
(periwinkle), Douglas Fir, Dogwood, PJM rhododendron, Delphinium, Black eye Susan (Rudbeckia sp.)
I contacted DuPont when I first observed the symptoms on 6/2/11. DuPont’s Dr. Charles Silcox indicated that
fertilization may enhance uptake of Imprelis, he indicated that leaching would not help reduce the concentration
in the soil, and that judicious watering during periods of drought would be advisable to alleviate stress. In our
area the high temperatures of the last week seemed to increase the expression of symptoms. Most applications
were made by applicators in late April to early May with the first symptoms showing up on 6/2/11 outside of
Altoona, PA.
The turf at this site was only treated with Imprelis and Dimension. No other broadleaf herbicides were used on
this site so we are sure that we are only looking at Imprelis injury to the ornamentals. We have reports in PA
from the following PA counties: Westmoreland, Blair, Lebanon, Berks, and the Philadelphia area so far. Master
Gardeners are beginning to see specimens coming into the office for diagnosis.
Damage on Taxus
Chuck Whealton, Ruppert Landscape, Inc., sent a few more
photos (as shown to the right) showing the progression of
herbicide damage on taxus hedges bordering turf treated with
Imprelis 4 job sites in Columbia, all of which have experienced
Imprelis damage on spruce trees. He noted that he has been
seeing the progessions as follows:
1. The damage starts as a yellowing of new growth.
2. Followed by classic curling of needles
3. Followed by death of new growth
4. Last stage appears to be a browning of all needles and
complete needle drop.

Grassworks Inc.
06-20-2011, 05:24 PM
"We have not seen photos of any of the damage listed below, but here
is a report from Tom Ford, Extension Director in Blair County, PA:
In our area we are witnessing injury from root uptake and possibly
drift onto the trunks of young trees. The label requires a 5 foot buffer
around ornamentals during turf applications, but we doubt that this is being followed by the applicators."

Once again, from the DuPont label:

"Apply 3 to 4.5 fluid ounces of DuPont™ IMPRELIS™
herbicide per acre in sufficient water to provide thorough
coverage of the treated area. Use properly calibrated application
equipment that will produce a uniform, coarse droplet
spray (>250 microns) as defined by ASABE S572 standard,
using a low pressure setting to help eliminate off target drift.
Do not apply more than 18 fluid ounces of IMPRELIS™
herbicide (0.28 lbs ae/A) per acre per year in broadcast
applications to turfgrass.
On cool season turfgrasses, including Kentucky bluegrass,
perennial ryegrass, tall fescue and fine fescue, when applications
will not be made within 5 feet of ornamental
groundcovers, foliage plants, flowers, trees, shrubs or other
desirable plants, IMPRELIS™ herbicide may be applied at
6 fluid ounces of product per acre."

No where else on the label does it mention a 5 foot buffer. My understanding of that is that you may apply as much as 6oz/A as long as you stay 5 feet away from the afore-mentioned plants. Nothing about staying 5 feet away if you are applying the 3 to 4.5 oz/A rate. I wonder if anyone has applied 6 oz/A and what their results were?

DA Quality Lawn & YS
06-20-2011, 06:12 PM
Here is what I say regardless.
For the guys that used Imprelis (a little or even a lot), you CANNOT kick yourself for using an approved product that had desirable properties.

For the guys saying I TOLD YOU SO, I DIDN'T USE IT, you need to close the cans and don't rake the others over the coals. Last I heard, using a new, approved herb. as a lic. applicator was not a criminal offense.

Grassworks Inc.
06-20-2011, 06:40 PM
I just wonder who's mis-interpreting the label... me or the Blair County, Pa. Extension Director?

Shegardi
06-20-2011, 06:41 PM
Here is what I say regardless.
For the guys that used Imprelis (a little or even a lot), you CANNOT kick yourself for using an approved product that had desirable properties.

For the guys saying I TOLD YOU SO, I DIDN'T USE IT, you need to close the cans and don't rake the others over the coals. Last I heard, using a new, approved herb. as a lic. applicator was not a criminal offense.

Could not agree more, you bought it in good faith and put it down expected Dupont's research to have been thorough. I did not use it early and had planned to start last month. However, I am glad I read through some of the threads on here and did not use it. No applicator is at fault with a faulty product from a supplier.

MnLefty
06-20-2011, 07:02 PM
Here is what I say regardless.
For the guys that used Imprelis (a little or even a lot), you CANNOT kick yourself for using an approved product that had desirable properties.

For the guys saying I TOLD YOU SO, I DIDN'T USE IT, you need to close the cans and don't rake the others over the coals. Last I heard, using a new, approved herb. as a lic. applicator was not a criminal offense.


I wanted to use it for my spring BWC, really thought hard about it, and probably the biggest thing that prevented me from doing so was that by the time I was ready to go it was out of stock. I thank my lucky stars that things worked out how they did, and I feel awful for the guys who have been burned by it. I am dumbfounded that a manufacturer of Dupont's stature could have this happen, be it through incomplete research, a bad manufacturing run, or however it happened.

phasthound
06-20-2011, 09:37 PM
Here is what I say regardless.
For the guys that used Imprelis (a little or even a lot), you CANNOT kick yourself for using an approved product that had desirable properties.

For the guys saying I TOLD YOU SO, I DIDN'T USE IT, you need to close the cans and don't rake the others over the coals. Last I heard, using a new, approved herb. as a lic. applicator was not a criminal offense.

DA,

It is certainly a disappointment how this has turned out. LCO's are not to blame regarding the damage. The manufacturer should (and hopefully will) take responsibility for the damage.

I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone who chose not to use Imprelis is blaming LCO's for damage. My interpretation is that many took a wait and see approach, much the same as waiting until the second year until buying a new car model or new software.

I know my concern about the product was, and still is, about it getting into our drinking water. As far as I know, possible heatlh effects have not been adequately studied.

fl-landscapes
06-21-2011, 12:30 AM
DA,

It is certainly a disappointment how this has turned out. LCO's are not to blame regarding the damage. The manufacturer should (and hopefully will) take responsibility for the damage.

I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone who chose not to use Imprelis is blaming LCO's for damage. My interpretation is that many took a wait and see approach, much the same as waiting until the second year until buying a new car model or new software.

I'm afraid the lco is the one who will take most of the blame. Unfortunately I think most customers wont care to hear the story no matter how valid it is. They see damaged trees from your application and will likely have a knee jerk reaction in most cases. Really is a shame and I hope dupont does everything in their power to make it right
I know my concern about the product was, and still is, about it getting into our drinking water. As far as I know, possible heatlh effects have not been adequately studied.
Posted via Mobile Device

JDUtah
06-21-2011, 02:15 AM
I just wonder who's mis-interpreting the label... me or the Blair County, Pa. Extension Director?

I'm on your side. It almost gives permission to spray up to the trunk, etc. if you are using less than the 6 oz rate with that wording.

Not to take it off topic, but no wonder Syngenta took two years refining the wording on the label before they released Tenacity. The label is the law and with that much money at stake you gotta make sure you are writing the law correctly.

DuPont still needs to man up IMHO.

mr.lawn works
06-21-2011, 01:01 PM
Posted via Mobile Device

dandd75
06-21-2011, 01:07 PM
Ok, so here is a guess at what maybe happening. The label, as we know, states not to use Imprelis in compost or mulch. Well, maybe because of all the rain and the surge of growth of turf this spring that when the grass was mowed under the affected trees it built up such a layer of clippings that it in effect did make a "compost pile" under them and too much of the chemical ended up building in the soil. Even more so if the mower aimed the clippings toward the trees, a build be high. Just a guess.

jbturf
06-21-2011, 07:56 PM
well after talking with some colleagues and the ma pesticide bur.
and couple others, the consesus is to NOT confront any customers about this issue at this time, it may escalate the problem and put us at more risk regardless of duponts findings. I tend to agree, and have also contacted umass lab about a chemical screen on effected trees.

turf hokie
06-22-2011, 12:08 PM
From Cornell, just to add fuel to the fire, note that its not registered in NY... yet Scott's somehow is going to get it put on fertilizer for homeowner use NY. Just like Quinclorac here, I cant buy it professionally but I can go into Lowes/Home Depot and buy it in a homeowner package. There is so much wrong with the industry when there are tools available to homeowners but not pro's........

Ornamentals Injury and Imprelis:
Diagnostic Labs around the country have recently received several samples of Norway spruce a n d wh i t e p i n e w i t h symptoms that appear to be associated with injury caused by synthetic auxin (growth regulator type) herbicides. On conifers, affected new growth may turn brown and die. On
broadleaf plants, leaf cupping (upward or downward), bending or twisting may occur on new growth and in extreme cases, new leaves may appear irregular in size and shape (usually smaller than normal) and have abnormal leaf margins. Samples of Norway spruce and white pine reported in other areas of the country appear to be linked back to the common denominator of the herbicide aminocyclopyrachlor (not labelled in NY yet, but expected to be introduced into Scott’s fertilizer line of products) applied to nearby lawns for broadleaf weed control. The damage appears to be from root uptake rather than drift or volatilization.Herbicides with good soil activity may cause problems on nearby broadleaf ornamentals through root uptake if they are applied within root zones of non–target plants or if drainage patterns funnel run-off to trees. Many herbicide labels have statements that say “Do not apply this product directly to, or allow to be under, ornamental ground covers, foliage plants, flowers, nearby crops or other desirable plants; or to the soil where potentially sensitive plants…” or “…care should be taken within the dripline of trees or shrubs.” It is unclear if the samples received this spring were from misapplications (within dripline or directly to foliage) but it appears that spruce and pine injury may also be occurring due to the expansive root system of these trees beyond the dripline of the tree. It is important to read all labels thoroughly to avoid applications that are not recommended on the label.
CORNELL TURFGRASS SHORTCUTT June 20, 2011

MnLefty
06-22-2011, 01:59 PM
I was so excited about the potential of Imprelis on fertilizer, especially thinking about an Imprelis/Dimension combo on a One-Ap type fertilizer. The concern was going to be making sure you've got a good deflector to prevent throwing prills into ornamental beds, thinking mature trees shouldn't be so much of an issue.

Now putting it on fert seems like about the dumbest thing that could be done, especially if available to homeowners. I could see homeowners smoking every plant in the yard. I know it was a fresh report, but I'd be shocked if it becomes available on fertilizer anytime soon.

zeroturnman
06-22-2011, 08:38 PM
Started seeing Imprelis damage this week after being applied for four weeks here in North Iowa. We have had over 5 inches of rain since June 10.

Symptoms are showing with both hose and ride on sprayer application.

Noticed one maple tree last week that looked like it was dying. All the leaves were turning brown dropping off. This tree was planted four years ago and all others showed no symptoms. One week later this same tree is budding out with all new leaves.

Has anyone else seen problems with maple trees and Imprelis?

CorkscrewWillow
06-22-2011, 11:48 PM
I have a client who I do mowing and maintenance for, no spraying/fert.
They have a local larger company do their apps.
We are seeing damage on Yews. 3 or 4 old established 4' tall are showing these same signs of damage.
Interesting thing is they are in the middle of the hedge and 3 feet from any turf.

Any other signs of yew or other shrub damage?

mike174
06-23-2011, 12:20 AM
yes, during the hot period over the last two weeks they white pines here got worse and the candles looked totally fried, but then it cooled off and alot of rain over the last few days. when i mowed this property yesterday they looked like they were turning around and have re greened, but still twisted.

makes one think they might just recover, but many of them are not going to be this lucky.

the weed control however is amazing. other than the oxalis i treated in spots two weeks ago, there is simply NO weeds in the lawns i treated.

Grassman,

Do you think this is a good product for large lawns (multiple acres) with no trees? No oxalis control..hmmm? I like the residual....minus evergreen kill, but a Gordon's "Zone" product may be just as good. What do you think?

mike174
06-23-2011, 12:33 AM
Just a follow up to the last post. I treated most lawns in May with Q4 and I'm not seeing any weeds either...including oxalis. On non-irrigated lawns, a couple perrenial rye lawns had minor chlorosis due to a mini drought but fert with iron took care of it within a couple days of rain.

BuckeyeSales
06-23-2011, 01:42 AM
have a client who I do mowing and maintenance for, no spraying/fert.
They have a local larger company do their apps.
We are seeing damage on Yews. 3 or 4 old established 4' tall are showing these same signs of damage.
Interesting thing is they are in the middle of the hedge and 3 feet from any turf.

Any other signs of yew or other shrub damage?

This piece has some pics of taxus issues

http://ipmnet.umd.edu/landscape/LndscpAlerts/2011/11Jun17L.pdf

From University of Maryland extension Scroll to Page 7.

White Gardens
06-23-2011, 09:12 AM
This piece has some pics of taxus issues

http://ipmnet.umd.edu/landscape/LndscpAlerts/2011/11Jun17L.pdf

From University of Maryland extension Scroll to Page 7.

Yet again, lets blame it on the applicators.....

CorkscrewWillow
06-23-2011, 09:59 AM
This piece has some pics of taxus issues

http://ipmnet.umd.edu/landscape/LndscpAlerts/2011/11Jun17L.pdf

From University of Maryland extension Scroll to Page 7.

That's it.
Thanx for the info.

mrmean
06-23-2011, 12:29 PM
Started seeing Imprelis damage this week after being applied for four weeks here in North Iowa. We have had over 5 inches of rain since June 10.

Symptoms are showing with both hose and ride on sprayer application.

Noticed one maple tree last week that looked like it was dying. All the leaves were turning brown dropping off. This tree was planted four years ago and all others showed no symptoms. One week later this same tree is budding out with all new leaves.

Has anyone else seen problems with maple trees and Imprelis?
Yes, I have 2 maples that are affected.
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h74/tdiehl1/DSC_0002.jpg

mdlwn1
06-23-2011, 12:42 PM
Just wondering.......every pic shows trees that are planted improperly to the point of major stress or that have been sprayed WELL into the root system. One of the links even reported damage...to Jap bloodgoods....a tree than ANY IDIOT should know to stay far far away from...with ANY weed control product. Obv this product does more than you thought it would, but for the love of god..lol...let this be a lesson learned as to why YOU DONT F'n SPRAY UNDER OR NEAR MOST TREES WITH WEED CONTROL PRODUCTS. Additionally...sometimes white pines can handle living in a lawn....and sometimes they can't...all depends on soil, root depth, etc.

RABBITMAN11
06-23-2011, 01:23 PM
This goes way beyond proper weed control apps. There are alot of guys that have been doing this along time. And there are far to many reports of damage to blame it on mis application. So be fore you go off think about what your saying... QUOTE=mdlwn1;4072878]Just wondering.......every pic shows trees that are planted improperly to the point of major stress or that have been sprayed WELL into the root system. One of the links even reported damage...to Jap bloodgoods....a tree than ANY IDIOT should know to stay far far away from...with ANY weed control product. Obv this product does more than you thought it would, but for the love of god..lol...let this be a lesson learned as to why YOU DONT F'n SPRAY UNDER OR NEAR MOST TREES WITH WEED CONTROL PRODUCTS. Additionally...sometimes white pines can handle living in a lawn....and sometimes they can't...all depends on soil, root depth, etc.[/QUOTE]
Posted via Mobile Device

mdlwn1
06-23-2011, 03:35 PM
Actually YOU should think about it...I didn't say it's all applicator error...just that the pics in this thread show clearly what NOT to do when using weed control products around trees. I'm sure Dupont screwed up......but, to the guy who sprayed under or near a blood good....stand up in front of a group of professionals (with a straight face) and try to explain how that was a good idea.

pieperlc
06-23-2011, 04:25 PM
Just wondering.......every pic shows trees that are planted improperly to the point of major stress or that have been sprayed WELL into the root system. One of the links even reported damage...to Jap bloodgoods....a tree than ANY IDIOT should know to stay far far away from...with ANY weed control product. Obv this product does more than you thought it would, but for the love of god..lol...let this be a lesson learned as to why YOU DONT F'n SPRAY UNDER OR NEAR MOST TREES WITH WEED CONTROL PRODUCTS. Additionally...sometimes white pines can handle living in a lawn....and sometimes they can't...all depends on soil, root depth, etc.

How do you explain to the customer why they have ground ivy around every spruce in their lawn? I've sprayed around and under evergreen and shade trees with a lot of different chems and never hurt anything. Imprelis never gave me any reason to believe that I had to use any more caution than with any other herbicide. My horsepower and escalade 2 labels give the same caution warnings as imprelis in relation to tree proximity. My complaint with Dupont is they didn't give anymore warnings of possible tree damage than any other pesticide. The rep. even told me their would be no more risk of damage with this product vs. other products.
Posted via Mobile Device

fl-landscapes
06-23-2011, 06:56 PM
Actually YOU should think about it...I didn't say it's all applicator error...just that the pics in this thread show clearly what NOT to do when using weed control products around trees. I'm sure Dupont screwed up......but, to the guy who sprayed under or near a blood good....stand up in front of a group of professionals (with a straight face) and try to explain how that was a good idea.

How exactly do you know where or how the application or mis application was made? Jumping to conclusions arent you? Seems the damage MAY have been caused by heavy rain after application moving the chemical into the root zone. CLEARLY this is a screw up by dupont in my opinion. As long as the application followed the label, things shouldnt go this wrong period.

jbturf
06-23-2011, 08:11 PM
any one heard any further from dupont this week?

the rep i talked to last week said he would be in touch this week,
nothing yet

what do you supose they are doing or waiting for?
maybe they think they will drag their feet and this whole issue
will disapear

i want to know what to expect on these trees,
surely their 8 yrs of R&D has some relevant info
on the long term effects on certain evergreens

btw- i am starting to see some minor effects on properties
spot treated with a bp sprayer-- wht pines

for those that may know, how far do you supose the feeder roots of
a 25' wht pine might extend beyond is drip line?

americanlawn
06-23-2011, 08:21 PM
FYI

Dupont just donated 3 million dollars to the Des Moines Botanical Center. Dupont also recently acquired Pioneer Hybrids -- the world's largest corn, soybean, etc, etc seed company (based in Des Moines, Iowa)............THIS AQUISITION IS WORTH BILLIONS.

IMO this indicates that Dupont has enough money regarding Imprellis damage.

Any thoughts?

grassman177
06-23-2011, 09:26 PM
Grassman,

Do you think this is a good product for large lawns (multiple acres) with no trees? No oxalis control..hmmm? I like the residual....minus evergreen kill, but a Gordon's "Zone" product may be just as good. What do you think?

sure it is, but i would wait to use it at all untill they can figure out if this is such a safe chemical that they once thought:nono:

grassman177
06-23-2011, 09:30 PM
my area rep from dupont and i have been playing phone tag. i am sure we will finally get together though

fl-landscapes
06-23-2011, 09:35 PM
FYI

Dupont just donated 3 million dollars to the Des Moines Botanical Center. Dupont also recently acquired Pioneer Hybrids -- the world's largest corn, soybean, etc, etc seed company (based in Des Moines, Iowa)............THIS AQUISITION IS WORTH BILLIONS.

IMO this indicates that Dupont has enough money regarding Imprellis damage.

I don't think anyone doubted dupont being able to handle this financially. Their business is a multi fascited worldwide company. Pesticide products are only a small part. The question is....how will this affect the lco who lose customers over this or worse are held liable for replacement costs of trees?

Any thoughts?
Posted via Mobile Device

johndeereguy
06-23-2011, 09:39 PM
Dupont has owned Pioneer for years, not just recently purchased
Posted via Mobile Device

dandd75
06-24-2011, 05:15 AM
From the book, Plant health Care for Woody Ornamentals, by John Lloyd, ISA 1997:
Contrary to popular belief, the root system of a tree is not a mirror image of the top. Most of the absorbing roots are found in the top 18 inches of the soil, but they may spread to a diameter five or six times that of a tree's dripline".

jbturf
06-24-2011, 08:20 AM
From the book, Plant health Care for Woody Ornamentals, by John Lloyd, ISA 1997:
Contrary to popular belief, the root system of a tree is not a mirror image of the top. Most of the absorbing roots are found in the top 18 inches of the soil, but they may spread to a diameter five or six times that of a tree's dripline".

thanks for the info dan,
perhaps we should forward that info to dupont as well

i suspect this product is going to at minimum be relabled, but may disapear
from resi turf use completely, the epa has been contacted (no surprise)

JoJo1990
06-24-2011, 08:31 AM
any one heard any further from dupont this week??

I had heard they were going to have a team dedicated to handle Imprelis damage complaints. Has anyone seen or spoken to this group yet?

White Gardens
06-24-2011, 09:29 AM
From the book, Plant health Care for Woody Ornamentals, by John Lloyd, ISA 1997:
Contrary to popular belief, the root system of a tree is not a mirror image of the top. Most of the absorbing roots are found in the top 18 inches of the soil, but they may spread to a diameter five or six times that of a tree's dripline".

I can attest to that from experience. I've dug holes 30 yards away from the drip-line of a tree and have found roots.

phasthound
06-24-2011, 10:38 AM
Take a look.

mrmean
06-24-2011, 11:46 AM
New article out of Minnesota

http://kaaltv.com/article/stories/S2171444.shtml?cat=10151

grassman177
06-24-2011, 10:42 PM
basically the whole stay out of the dripline is a crock of crap from dupont, if they even try to say that one should have cuz most of the roots are much farther out that are feeder roots. you would be not able to spray any lawn with trees or them near. i find this all very weak from dupont and they certainly did not do their homework on this one. too much damage to somehow miss it during testing

DA Quality Lawn & YS
06-25-2011, 02:29 PM
basically the whole stay out of the dripline is a crock of crap from dupont, if they even try to say that one should have cuz most of the roots are much farther out that are feeder roots. you would be not able to spray any lawn with trees or them near. i find this all very weak from dupont and they certainly did not do their homework on this one. too much damage to somehow miss it during testing

I agree what lawns do not have a number of trees in them??
To create a chemical that cannot be used anywhere near trees (esp spruces) is nearly worthless to the LCO who apps. Too bad too, cause it really does well on some hard to controls.

docjones
06-26-2011, 10:54 PM
so is anyone still using Imprelis? If I have a lawn covered in ground ivy and wild violet but with some trees, am i risking killing even deciduous trees too? wow, this sucks.

DA Quality Lawn & YS
06-27-2011, 12:35 AM
FYI - update 6 weeks since app of Imprelis on some of my customer's lawns. Used a PG at the 4.5 oz/ac rate.
No damage yet to report. Have gotten ample rainfall over the past 2 weeks, enough to result in a surplus of soil moisture. Will continue to monitor....

mrmean
06-27-2011, 12:29 PM
Cincy, OH
http://www.local12.com/news/local/story/Weed-Killer-May-Be-Linked-To-Tree-Damage/iIb__rK1l0CeS47rYV6tng.cspx

justanotherhomeowner
06-27-2011, 01:45 PM
New article from Penn State about imprelis:

http://extension.psu.edu/greenindustry/giec/news/2011/some-observations-on-imprelis-injury-to-trees

wintergreen82
06-27-2011, 03:04 PM
well our results are in and they are not good. I had read up on the supposed damage from imprellis. I had about 10 lawns left so I used just regular 3 way on them. Drove around found no damage after 4 weeks some already at 5-6 weeks since treatment and no damage. Talked to a few of my friends in the twin cities who had heard this but not seen anything. Within the past 5 days 8 dead trees 6 weeks after app. 2 thirty foot pines dying off with the top completely brown. The other company - 4 trees completely dead numerous amount of burnt tips.

So I head out and checked my properties- No dead trees as of yet however I have a spruce atleast 25 foot half wilted and the other half looks great. Just fertilized on wednesday evening. There was no damage at that time. Monday at 8am half wilted along with a burnt top. 14 trees with burnt tips. 2trees completely wilted but still green which have been trimmed 10ft up. Last night i had a lighter green evergreen in my yard, today the tips are brown and the needles fall right off. Application was done on May 5 at 730pm with 5mph wind. It's gonna get ugly for a lot of ppl. I thought we were in the clear. Just wanted to pass the results on

grassman177
06-27-2011, 09:29 PM
great article. thanks for sharing.

Triton37
06-27-2011, 09:50 PM
Time for me to explain what you will ALL experience yet since I have been through this before. #1 Don't bring attention to the problem unless you have to. #2 Don't try waste your time trying to claim this on your pesticide insurance rider unless you had it ammended to include situations where you are/were at fault. Yes, your claims adjuster will pay for drift onto another property but not a dime for a property that is your client with your equipment and with your employee who mixed according to a low or high rate. Trees in right of ways MAY be covered. #3. Claims adjusters can take 3-6 months before they make their determination. In the meantime...Grandpa and grandma are having strokes and undergoing severe stress looking at half dead trees every day so think about what's best for them, we owe it to them not to allow beaurocratic red tape to destroy their sanity. #4 IT'S NOT WORTH WAITING FOR INSURANCE OR DUPONT TO STEP UP. #5 Dupont will not award any claims due to the risk of applicators getting to close and you can't prove they didn't. #6 If you have damage, have them treated with Essential Plus from Growth Products asap! It saved us thousands in damage even though we still had a $70,000 bill in the end it was worth the effort. Essential Plus has a very high carbon content that binds with weed controls helping to neutralize. Amino acids will blow any product through so the weed control isn't sitting within the stems causing permanent damage and recovery will occur within months instead of seasons. No one can be sure how this will correct imprellis problems based on exposure rates. Try 1 gallon of Essential per 100 gallons of water and saturate the soil to a 6" depth. This is how we saved 8 Spruces, 1 Norway and 2 White Pines all 30-40' tall. Each of the trees had 10-20% damage and were treated once within 1 week after seeing signs of damage. You may have to repeat again in 7-10 days for imprellis. #7 Once you do this you will nullify any future claim checks. THERE WON'T BE ANY FROM DUPONT!

That's your choice you now have to make my freinds! Be safe, be careful and avoid law suits by showing good faith is how I can say we stayed in business and those irrate clients weren't causing us huge PR problems. We just exhausted ourselves with regular communication to keep them connected. They're still customers to this day.

P.S. I bought 8 gallons used 4 already. 1 damaged Spruce so far. Returning 2 gallons keeping 2 for spot treatment only.

DA Quality Lawn & YS
06-27-2011, 10:39 PM
Triton, sounds like a good rescue product you are using there.

But, not sure how you figure your GL PD coverage will not cover damage that you cause to property under your care, custody, or control. It sure as heck will. I mean, if I did not have this kind of coverage under my GL, then why in the heck even carry it?

DA Quality Lawn & YS
06-27-2011, 10:45 PM
well our results are in and they are not good. I had read up on the supposed damage from imprellis. I had about 10 lawns left so I used just regular 3 way on them. Drove around found no damage after 4 weeks some already at 5-6 weeks since treatment and no damage. Talked to a few of my friends in the twin cities who had heard this but not seen anything. Within the past 5 days 8 dead trees 6 weeks after app. 2 thirty foot pines dying off with the top completely brown. The other company - 4 trees completely dead numerous amount of burnt tips.

So I head out and checked my properties- No dead trees as of yet however I have a spruce atleast 25 foot half wilted and the other half looks great. Just fertilized on wednesday evening. There was no damage at that time. Monday at 8am half wilted along with a burnt top. 14 trees with burnt tips. 2trees completely wilted but still green which have been trimmed 10ft up. Last night i had a lighter green evergreen in my yard, today the tips are brown and the needles fall right off. Application was done on May 5 at 730pm with 5mph wind. It's gonna get ugly for a lot of ppl. I thought we were in the clear. Just wanted to pass the results on

Fellow Roch LCO...were these lawns treated with a gun or ride-on? Were they sprayed right up under the canopy? What rate? Sounds like they were all larger evergreens, correct?

Triton37
06-27-2011, 11:52 PM
Triton, sounds like a good rescue product you are using there.

But, not sure how you figure your GL PD coverage will not cover damage that you cause to property under your care, custody, or control. It sure as heck will. I mean, if I did not have this kind of coverage under my GL, then why in the heck even carry it?

I'm sure only because the insurance adjuster told me what he would allow to be covered. Makes you wonder why we have to pay for insurance doesn't it? :hammerhead:

pieperlc
06-27-2011, 11:53 PM
Insurance sucks. You don't know what you have or don't until you need it.


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mclanc85
06-28-2011, 06:23 PM
Looks like I'm in for a long season. Sprayed imprelis from April 14th to May 14th. Just now seeing damage ranging from 2 to 50 foot Spruce and Pines. I live in Kentucky and the University of Kentucky is supposed to be releasing a statement this week. I was told by my chemical rep that they have seen damage from multiple herbicides not just imprelis. That it is a combo of weather, stress and herbicide. But either way my job is in jepoady and our indrustry is going to take a huge hit. Here in Kentucky we are battling the Emerald Ash Bore and news like this is going to cause alot of customers to question the safety of chemical lawn care.

Grassworks Inc.
06-28-2011, 08:30 PM
Is that your DuPont rep or your distributor rep? I think DuPont is going into a bunker mentality right now.

Grassworks Inc.
06-28-2011, 08:33 PM
Time for me to explain what you will ALL experience yet since I have been through this before. #1 Don't bring attention to the problem unless you have to. #2 Don't try waste your time trying to claim this on your pesticide insurance rider unless you had it ammended to include situations where you are/were at fault. Yes, your claims adjuster will pay for drift onto another property but not a dime for a property that is your client with your equipment and with your employee who mixed according to a low or high rate. Trees in right of ways MAY be covered. #3. Claims adjusters can take 3-6 months before they make their determination. In the meantime...Grandpa and grandma are having strokes and undergoing severe stress looking at half dead trees every day so think about what's best for them, we owe it to them not to allow beaurocratic red tape to destroy their sanity. #4 IT'S NOT WORTH WAITING FOR INSURANCE OR DUPONT TO STEP UP. #5 Dupont will not award any claims due to the risk of applicators getting to close and you can't prove they didn't. #6 If you have damage, have them treated with Essential Plus from Growth Products asap! It saved us thousands in damage even though we still had a $70,000 bill in the end it was worth the effort. Essential Plus has a very high carbon content that binds with weed controls helping to neutralize. Amino acids will blow any product through so the weed control isn't sitting within the stems causing permanent damage and recovery will occur within months instead of seasons. No one can be sure how this will correct imprellis problems based on exposure rates. Try 1 gallon of Essential per 100 gallons of water and saturate the soil to a 6" depth. This is how we saved 8 Spruces, 1 Norway and 2 White Pines all 30-40' tall. Each of the trees had 10-20% damage and were treated once within 1 week after seeing signs of damage. You may have to repeat again in 7-10 days for imprellis. #7 Once you do this you will nullify any future claim checks. THERE WON'T BE ANY FROM DUPONT!

That's your choice you now have to make my freinds! Be safe, be careful and avoid law suits by showing good faith is how I can say we stayed in business and those irrate clients weren't causing us huge PR problems. We just exhausted ourselves with regular communication to keep them connected. They're still customers to this day.

P.S. I bought 8 gallons used 4 already. 1 damaged Spruce so far. Returning 2 gallons keeping 2 for spot treatment only.

That sounds good, but what if DuPont decides to invalidate any claim against them because you (or anyone who does this and it doesn't work) used an un-approved recovery method or material?

mclanc85
06-28-2011, 09:25 PM
Is that your DuPont rep or your distributor rep? I think DuPont is going into a bunker mentality right now.

distributor rep. Havn't heard back from dupont.

Greenery
06-28-2011, 09:46 PM
I received a letter from the MN dept of ag today regarding imprellis. It wasn't very informative other than they have been receiving complaints about tree damage and they wan't users of imprellis to fill out an online survey.
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americanlawn
06-28-2011, 10:05 PM
A former employee/applicator is here with me now. He spent a year with a LCO in the Cedar Rapids/Iowa City area. Seems they sprayed Imprellis (with water only) this spring. Now the LCO is filing for bankruptcy, cuz the LCO cannot handle the damage incured by using Imprellis. That's why this former employee is with me today -- asking if we're hiring. Tough deal.

Hope you folks don't mind the pic. Just got a new camera that works on my new computer. Joanna is an office gal, and she has a heart of gold. (she has a boyfriend) :hammerhead:

Snapper12
06-28-2011, 10:34 PM
All these guys that "drive by" and see damage... are you looking to see if it's just spider mite damage?

JoJo1990
06-28-2011, 11:15 PM
I'll ask again...Has anyone heard back from DuPont's "team" that is handling the Imprelis damage claims?

RABBITMAN11
06-28-2011, 11:23 PM
I have a meeting thursday with a guy hired by dupont to inspect properties....Any suggestions on things to say or do to be prepared for meeting? We are going to drive to my properties to inspect damage. Talk about the way the we apply products..

grassman177
06-28-2011, 11:25 PM
i have not, but i have been pestering the local rep and we have been playing phone tag.

had my first customer notice and call about the damage today. i printed off the official dupont statement and the penn state repsonse posted above or in the last page. gave it to her with an explanation. told her to work with us cuz we are unsure what will happen.

by the way larry, she is a looker. bring her on down with you when you come by! hahaha/

fl-landscapes
06-29-2011, 08:48 AM
I have a meeting thursday with a guy hired by dupont to inspect properties....Any suggestions on things to say or do to be prepared for meeting? We are going to drive to my properties to inspect damage. Talk about the way the we apply products..

be carefull about EVERYTHING you say. He will act like your buddy BUT he is there to get you to say SOMETHING to find you liable. Say very little and I would just repeat something like "I applied exactly as the label instructed" Good luck with the meeting

mrmean
06-29-2011, 09:46 AM
big article on the issue here and some possible remedial options
http://www.lawnandlandscape.com/ll-062811-imprelis-dupont.tree.aspx

jasontimm
06-29-2011, 02:19 PM
I received a letter from the MN dept of ag today regarding imprellis. It wasn't very informative other than they have been receiving complaints about tree damage and they wan't users of imprellis to fill out an online survey.
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Ya, i got the same letter , i also got a letter from DuPont explaining the problem, and pretty much blaming the applicators for improper mixing, and application.....very classy on their part, didnt surprise me.

precca
06-29-2011, 03:27 PM
Just an update from our neighborhood - the spruces are now stone dead and all the pines that first showed signs of damage to their candles (new growth) now have gotten worse. The tops of the pines are brown and the browning is progressing down the tree. It is only a matter of weeks before the pines are stone dead too. We are talking over 50 trees that were at least 15 feet tall. Thank goodness the damage is only in the common areas which were sprayed and not the individual homeowner lawns. This is NOT a disease or weather issue since evergreens in homeowner lawns are all healthy.