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chipper44
06-22-2011, 10:17 PM
We are looking a a to total of 775 sq/ft of wall. 155x5 ft. Customer want to expand flat area in back yard another 8 ft into the hill in the picture. I will need to excavate into the hill and build the wall from there. Im thinking a total of $21,500.00 for everything included. (blocks, excavation, geogrid, labor, crushed stone.)


http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac278/chipper4444/2011-06-20123933.jpg

http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac278/chipper4444/2011-06-20123927.jpg

http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac278/chipper4444/2011-06-20123905.jpg

scagrider22
06-22-2011, 10:31 PM
What kind of block and geogrid are you going to use? If i was building the wall with Allan Block AB Classic my price came out to be about $23,500.00 so depending on materials used your price isnt bad.

chipper44
06-22-2011, 10:42 PM
I will be using Allan Block AB Classic or something very similar in price. As far as the geogrid im not sure which one i will use yet.

Im glad we were in the same ball park!

DVS Hardscaper
06-22-2011, 11:35 PM
I will be using Allan Block AB Classic or something very similar in price. As far as the geogrid im not sure which one i will use yet.

Im glad we were in the same ball park!


Not trying to sound arrogant, but this thread is concerning to me.

And I say this because why are you "not sure about which" grid you're going to use???? Your engineer should have speced the grid for you.

I normally will give people a preliminary proposal contigent to engineering specifications. The preliminary proposal will include engineering fees and permit fees, along with grid, aggragate, fill soil, etc.

The pics you have posted show ground that if it's going to have a wall, is going to need to be engineered. No two ways about it.

Before I sit here and set forth the time and effort to cost out what we would charge, I (along with others here) like to know that you have all your ducks in a row. The engineering. The permits. What block. Accessibility. ETC. I like to know how you derived at your cost. Basically I (along with others here) like to see that you have set forth the same effort into your price, as we would be doing to give you an idea of what our price would be.



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Stillwater
06-23-2011, 01:03 AM
Whats in the hill?, Is it a native hill or created during the construction of the development is their possible ledge in it?

chipper44
06-23-2011, 01:59 PM
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chipper44
06-23-2011, 02:05 PM
Not trying to sound arrogant, but this thread is concerning to me.

And I say this because why are you "not sure about which" grid you're going to use???? Your engineer should have speced the grid for you.

I normally will give people a preliminary proposal contigent to engineering specifications. The preliminary proposal will include engineering fees and permit fees, along with grid, aggragate, fill soil, etc.

The pics you have posted show ground that if it's going to have a wall, is going to need to be engineered. No two ways about it.

Before I sit here and set forth the time and effort to cost out what we would charge, I (along with others here) like to know that you have all your ducks in a row. The engineering. The permits. What block. Accessibility. ETC. I like to know how you derived at your cost. Basically I (along with others here) like to see that you have set forth the same effort into your price, as we would be doing to give you an idea of what our price would be.



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DVS,

According to local building code I do not need a engineer on this job because the wall is under 10ft in hight. I am in the process of getting a building permit. I am going to use the allan block stated above, and geogrid just not set on which strength. I feel like the type of geogrid will not affect the total cost by thousands of dollars so that should not be the m as in focus of this thread.
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Budlightshooter
06-23-2011, 02:11 PM
Am i the only one thinking that that is grossly underbid? even with allen block, what happens when you have to warranty this situation? and your going dig out 15 or so feet from the flat area correct?

PatriotLandscape
06-23-2011, 02:22 PM
It's the manufacturer that says you need the engineer.
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chipper44
06-23-2011, 02:37 PM
Am i the only one thinking that that is grossly underbid? even with allen block, what happens when you have to warranty this situation? and your going dig out 15 or so feet from the flat area correct?

Yes about 15 ft back.

Do I really need to spend thousands on an engineer just for someone else to tell me I need geo grid and to burry a course or two. Its a 4 to 5 ft wall not a 30ft wall with a parking lot on top.
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PatriotLandscape
06-23-2011, 02:58 PM
The engineer should be about 500 and yes you do and should use one. Who is liable for the job if it fails? Do you have enough $ in the bank to build it twice? Call and get a price from an engineer they don't cost thousands. Your only getting install diagrams not plot plans etc.
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PatriotLandscape
06-23-2011, 02:59 PM
Also the length and type of geogrid can change that is why you should hire an engineer.
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chipper44
06-23-2011, 03:15 PM
The engineer should be about 500 and yes you do and should use one. Who is liable for the job if it fails? Do you have enough $ in the bank to build it twice? Call and get a price from an engineer they don't cost thousands. Your only getting install diagrams not plot plans etc.
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chipper44
06-23-2011, 03:36 PM
I called just got off the phone with an engineer. Your right it is about $500. After a good conversation with him he thinks this is not a very complicated wall. He said use 2 layers of mirafi 3xt. Im all set on the engineer aspect of this job.
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Grid will be 4 ft wide at the bottom layer and 6 ft at the top layer

DVS Hardscaper
06-23-2011, 06:29 PM
Dude.

When we say engineer, we don't mean call one and chat. We mean hire one and get stamped drawings.

I'm a polite straight forward person. Ok, with that said - I can tell you're not qualified to build a five foot wall. And my conclusion derives from you stating that code requires walls ten feet and above be engineered.

We had a 42" high wall buldge.
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chipper44
06-23-2011, 10:15 PM
Dude.

When we say engineer, we don't mean call one and chat. We mean hire one and get stamped drawings.

I'm a polite straight forward person. Ok, with that said - I can tell you're not qualified to build a five foot wall. And my conclusion derives from you stating that code requires walls ten feet and above be engineered.

We had a 42" high wall buldge.
Posted via Mobile Device


Hmm...

1st, I did not "call and chat" i called because i was interested in spending the $500 for someone to tell me something i already knew. Burry a course, 2 layers of geo grid, compact backfill with plate compacter blah blah.


2nd, Yes i said that local building permits do not require an engineer under 10 ft however i was not stating as a fact that you dont need one. I know they are strongly recommended over 3 ft as a rule of thumb I was simply just stating local building code.

3rd, I have no idea what i am doing, this is my first time ever, your right i am not qualified, I just think it looks easy so ill try it, just kidding HAHAHA you dont know me. Stop acting like your some big shot who can intimidate people on an online forum. :cool2:

Oh yea, since your going to waste your time with a pointless conversation ill give you a picture of a recent wall i have done just so you can criticize every speck of dust.

Oh and I decided to go ahead and get the engineer regardless that i already know what he is going to tell me. Mission accomplished!

http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac278/chipper4444/46012_1597429695617_1232220086_1685706_287973_n.jpg

chipper44
06-23-2011, 10:28 PM
If you really get bored just let me know.

I got a 1000 sq/ ft granite patio you can criticize.
Also have a blue stone patio you can look at.

Both i consider good work but im not qualified soooo... you know

DVS Hardscaper
06-23-2011, 10:34 PM
Hey bud, I'm responding to your comments. I'm sorry if your pride got hurt. Tomorrow is a new day.

Any wall builder knows that permits have NOTHING to do with a wall being engineered. And they don't question the need for an engineer. We all know what the engineer specs will call for, but it's procedure that most contractors believe in, even when they already "know" what will be speced. Which is why we do a preliminary proposal prior to disturbing the engineer from his resting place under his rock.

You mentioned your permit dept and the 10' thing.

NOT ME :)

My participation in the forum is never theory.




Your planter looks great in the pic. However, a stone planter and a 5' retaining wall are two different worlds. Grandma's build cute little planters all the time :) I have a planter I built like that at my mom's house 18 years ago before I even know what a SRW was, and thats NO EXAGERATION!!

Instaed of the big patio, lets see a block wall similar to the one you're proposing.

Also - No intimidating. I have no reason to intimidate anyone. Myself (and others here) take this industry VERY seriously and we get upset with jobs are not done correctly. Why would I want to intimidate someone no where near me, let alone people near me? What do their dealings have to do with my life? I just want to see walls built correctly and homeowners receiving a top notch job performed by all contractors.

And last but not least - I'm not "acting" :) I am the World KING DADDY of Hardscapes, brotha!!!!


,

DVS Hardscaper
06-23-2011, 10:55 PM
DVS,

According to local building code I do not need a engineer on this job because the wall is under 10ft in hight. I am in the process of getting a building permit. I am going to use the allan block stated above, and geogrid just not set on which strength. I feel like the type of geogrid will not affect the total cost by thousands of dollars so that should not be the m as in focus of this thread.
Posted via Mobile Device


Grid itself is not "the m as in focus". Your initial post did not mention grid, which is why it was brought up in a form of what's called "a response". As in "don't forget the grid and the excavation of the grid, or you'll under price the work". The mention of grid and engineer, and all the other stuff is intended to help you successfully build a wall and maybe not make money....but intended to help you at least not lose money. I know it's late and you're feeling tired, but if people didnt want to help you - they would move on to the next topic. Count your blessings. No internet forums existed when we did our first wall.


It's the excavation for the grid and stock piling of the material that is of importance.



.

Stillwater
06-24-2011, 10:25 AM
Whats with the pissing contest, DVS had legit questions, some take this seriously. you want a price check? answer detailed questions and know what materials your using. You never answered my question whats in the hill. try not to be so sensitive these are not gotcha questions. in all seriousness you should know off the top of your head what geo your going to use and what it will cost you. We have a right to know the experience level of someone we are helping. this thread does not have to go negative.

DVS Hardscaper
06-24-2011, 12:48 PM
Another way that I as a contractor view things is, we can't take for granted our customers money. It does not matter if they are billionaires or a sweet little old retired school teacher.

A 20k job is alotta money for that homeowner. That money came from somewhere, whether it was from a loan that they will spend the next 10 yeArs paying off, or a company bonus, or they saved for 4 years to get the money. We need to respect that. And this is a major principle of how I operate my small business.

When I see a contractor say "hey I'm trying to pull $20k from these people for a wall...but hey I'm not going to have it engineered or use reinforcement - I get upset. Not angry, but upset. The home owner has no clue what goes into a successful wall build. They're trusting you. Just like a personal relationship or marriage, Business is about trust.


If the job pictured was a job I was pricing against chip, there is no doubt that I would get the job. And thats because inmy initial consultation that prospective client will be educated on wall building, engineering, and what to look for in other contractors. They will also be advised of what components the others will say "oh we don't need that".




.
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PatriotLandscape
06-24-2011, 01:09 PM
Bottom line you are not qualified to design a wall of that size.

If this was the case then in the Allan block brochure it would say

"For walls over 4 feet please consult a landscape contractor"

I did not pull out this years catalog but I will bet my house it still says engineer. And not the kind that drives trains.
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chipper44
06-24-2011, 01:23 PM
Another way that I as a contractor view things is, we can't take for granted our customers money. It does not matter if they are billionaires or a sweet little old retired school teacher.

A 20k job is alotta money for that homeowner. That money came from somewhere, whether it was from a loan that they will spend the next 10 yeArs paying off, or a company bonus, or they saved for 4 years to get the money. We need to respect that. And this is a major principle of how I operate my small business.



When I see a contractor say "hey I'm trying to pull $20k from these people for a wall...but hey I'm not going to have it engineered or use reinforcement - I get upset. Not angry, but upset. The home owner has no clue what goes into a successful wall build. They're trusting you. Just like a personal relationship or marriage, Business is about trust.


If the job pictured was a job I was pricing against chip, there is no doubt that I would get the job. And thats because inmy initial consultation that prospective client will be educated on wall building, engineering, and what to look for in other contractors. They will also be advised of what components the others will say "oh we don't need that".
aesthetic

.
Posted via Mobile Device


Dvs, im glad we can agree on something. I also take the time to educate my potential clients on wall building. Most think you just throw up some block and you have a wall. What they dont know I
s the actual wall is the geo grid an a compacted soil behind the aestheticly pleasing block.
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chipper44
06-24-2011, 01:26 PM
Whats with the pissing contest, DVS had legit questions, some take this seriously. you want a price check? answer detailed questions and know what materials your using. You never answered my question whats in the hill. try not to be so sensitive these are not gotcha questions. in all seriousness you should know off the top of your head what geo your going to use and what it will cost you. We have a right to know the experience level of someone we are helping. this thread does not have to go negative.

The hill is fill from when the houses in this area were built about 10_15 yrs ago.
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Stillwater
06-24-2011, 04:19 PM
http://www.earthimprovement.com/images/eight-ways.pdf

chipper44
06-24-2011, 06:31 PM
thats why an engineer is so important because there are people throwing up walls and dont know what they are doing.

It really is scary because those walls could easily kill someone!

Ramairfreak98ss
06-28-2011, 07:40 AM
It's the manufacturer that says you need the engineer.
Posted via Mobile Device

I've heard that too...

For eight feet sounds expensive for the client...even if your rate is good...I'd think that would be a hard sale..good luck
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PatriotLandscape
06-28-2011, 10:17 AM
thats why an engineer is so important because there are people throwing up walls and dont know what they are doing.

It really is scary because those walls could easily kill someone!

Didn't you say earlier that you didn't want to spend money on an engineer? Did we convince you because befor you said all you needed
To do was have a phone call with one
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castle555
06-28-2011, 10:23 AM
Whats in the hill?, Is it a native hill or created during the construction of the development is their possible ledge in it?
Stillwater asks an important question here.
I am in the process of fixing a recently bank-owned property where the previous owners did two 6' high masonry block walls into a slope and did not pay any attention to the geography (the lay of the land). The twpo walls are 20 feet apart and there is more block buried to make them about 7' feet in height. Also when I dug up the foundations, I shocked to find the had very little toe on the wall foundation and there is nobody to ask about the heels or possible keyway because they are long gone. SO what an idiotic idea it was for the them to proceed with building over $50,000.00 in masonry walls and attempting a swimming pool (which was backfilled) when they did not use engineering, nor examine the ground first. Ignorance is Bliss!
Guess what? They cut into the water table, or natural aquifer and presto, their backyard was a pond. The name of the community: El Dorado Hills (get a clue!).
Ive pumped out 10,000 gallons of water and will re-grade and install two french drain capture systems with large catch basins to tie into 4" pipe that will go to the storm drain system via the street. All this before landscaping the backyard
THE CAVEAT: First do a test trench straight into the hill as far back as the wall is going to go, and find out if you are going to have a running stream in their backyard. You also will immediately see the strata your are cutting into and know your excavation costs. One day a few hours having the owner pay for a backhoe and you will save the both of you possible problems.
CA LIC. Landscape C-27 #915428
Good luck.