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View Full Version : sedge --- spot treat vs blanket app


grassmasterswilson
06-28-2011, 08:54 PM
This year i have started mixing in a sedge herbicide along with my broadleaf apps and blanket applying everything. I tried to spot treat but found I missed a lot of your sedges that weren't showing themselves. I've been using Prosedge (alternative to sedgehammer).

What are your thoughts on spot treat vs blanket app? Anyone found something better theat prosedge/sedgehammer? Anything more cost effective for blanket apps?

fireman gus
06-28-2011, 09:12 PM
How expensive is Prosedge? Sedgehammer is quite costly to banket spray. I only spot spray.

Think Green
06-28-2011, 09:51 PM
Grassmaster,
Unless you are getting this stuff at dealer cost........then you are charging off the chart.
I am using Certainty..........spot spray the hot spots only!
At the costs per acre..........and not getting them all the first time is only wasting the product. If the customer is willing to shell out the cost for repeat apps....then so be it. Remember you are only supposed to use a maximum rate per acre per year also. If you are using less than label rates, then you aren't getting them either. I am bound to a yearly rate of 2.66 oz. per acre and that is it. So you better get em' all the second round or switch to something else.

olive123
06-29-2011, 11:32 AM
there is a new product combining dismiss with manor...may be worth a look

Ric
06-29-2011, 02:09 PM
.

IMHO Sedge is hard enough to control with repeated Blanket Treatments. Why waste your time and product doing Spot treatments, You are only spreading the sedge.

Go back to basics and first ID the Pest. Next study the growth habit of the pest. Next plan a course of action That will control that pest. Don't over look cultural practices etc in conjunction with Chemical Controls.

TJLANDS
06-29-2011, 02:24 PM
.

IMHO Sedge is hard enough to control with repeated Blanket Treatments. Why waste your time and product doing Spot treatments, You are only spreading the sedge.

Go back to basics and first ID the Pest. Next study the growth habit of the pest. Next plan a course of action That will control that pest. Don't over look cultural practices etc in conjunction with Chemical Controls.

Why throw in the stupid comments?
Everyone is looking for a way to eliminate the nutsedge and be cost effective at the same time. Right now it just inst happening

TJLANDS
06-29-2011, 02:45 PM
Yellow nutsedge-Spreads like the plague , with only one treatment,
We need to come up with a solution.

larger picture inside black line from far away looks ok but closer picture shows 70-80% nutsedge

phillie
06-29-2011, 05:04 PM
I charge for blanket apps of nutsedge if its that bad. Right now I am spot treating with Q4 which is labelled for broadleaf, yellow nutsedge, and crabgrass. Right now I have under 100 customers so I dont want a whole bunch of inventory. It is kind of expensive but cheaper for me for now anyway, when you start adding up buying sedgehammer for this quinclorac for that, and then a 3 way for everything else.

Ric
06-29-2011, 06:13 PM
Why throw in the stupid comments?
Everyone is looking for a way to eliminate the nutsedge and be cost effective at the same time. Right now it just inst happening

TJ

I am sorry if my opinion appears stupid to you. But the fact is I don't have a Sedge problem in any of my yards because I do Blanket Treat for sedge. The original question was "sedge --- spot treat vs blanket app". I simply said IMHO Blanket was a better way to control sedge.

As for the second paragraph about Basics. When I taught College, My slower students kept looking for the Miracle Chemical instead of trying understanding the life cycle of the pest they were dealing with. For that reason they weren't able to pass my course. If they are still in the business they are doing terrible work because they are missing the basics. You must be looking the Miracle Chemical instead of trying to understand the basics. Therefore My commend about Basics went way over your head and that is why you think it is stupid.


BTW Have A Nice Day.

Think Green
06-29-2011, 06:18 PM
I can see this thread caused some heated debate. Let me start all over and recount my comments. Most of my lawns......(Bermuda) have hot spots of sedge. If the lawn is covered with sedge, then obviously you will need to blanket spray and charge accordingly. You will need to repeat another trip as it is needed on certain growth stages of the sedge.
Are you sure it is yellow or purple nutsedge? Does this area smell sweet after you mow it?
To me, this weed looks like Green Kyllinga.
If a customer calls early in the season..........a lawn that I know nothing about, they are automatically figured for blanket spraying of nutsedge. A lawn that I know for years gets a hot spot treatment.

Ric,
As stated in other threads.........you guys are getting 15.00 per K. Then you can afford to blanket spray your sedge...........but our lawns around here don't pull that kind of bux, so they get spot sprays. If you treat hot spots, you are not generally going to get them all.....that is common sense, but a customer will get what they are paying for. At the time of signing a agreement, the cost of using certain products is mentioned. They often will take plan B to save money. Even though it will take 2-3 years to get rid of the sedges, they are getting what they pay for.

Ric
06-29-2011, 06:39 PM
I can see this thread caused some heated debate. Let me start all over and recount my comments. Most of my lawns......(Bermuda) have hot spots of sedge. If the lawn is covered with sedge, then obviously you will need to blanket spray and charge accordingly. You will need to repeat another trip as it is needed on certain growth stages of the sedge.
Are you sure it is yellow or purple nutsedge? Does this area smell sweet after you mow it?
To me, this weed looks like Green Kyllinga.
If a customer calls early in the season..........a lawn that I know nothing about, they are automatically figured for blanket spraying of nutsedge. A lawn that I know for years gets a hot spot treatment.

Ric,
As stated in other threads.........you guys are getting 15.00 per K. Then you can afford to blanket spray your sedge...........but our lawns around here don't pull that kind of bux, so they get spot sprays. If you treat hot spots, you are not generally going to get them all.....that is common sense, but a customer will get what they are paying for. At the time of signing a agreement, the cost of using certain products is mentioned. They often will take plan B to save money. Even though it will take 2-3 years to get rid of the sedges, they are getting what they pay for.

Think Green

It isn't my fault you can't sell a compete package at a price that allows you to do good work or use the better methods. Not all Pesticide Companies in Florida get the same price for their work that I do. Only those companies that get a visible response to their treatment, can charge what I charge.

The problem with spot treat treat is HUMAN ERROR whether it is you or ME. In the case of Sedge you must look at the growth pattern and how Cultural and Chemical practice effect it. Sedge grows from Nutlets that are tied together in long chains. Even the Best Herbicide can only Kill back 3 nutlets on a 30 nutlet chain. Before the Sedge emerges again, it grows an other nutlet. What was a 30 Nutlet chain you killed 3 nutlet and grew one. You now have a 28 nutlet chain and must start over again.

Bottom Line is. When you first access the property of a potential customer, You must make an actuate assessment. You must also lay out the fact for the Customer and let them pick the program and cost that fits their Budget. If the Yard is full of Sedge, Then charge for Multiply blanket treatment to control it. But don't cry to me that you can't sell your services at a profit.

grassmasterswilson
06-29-2011, 07:45 PM
Think Green

It isn't my fault you can't sell a compete package at a price that allows you to do good work or use the better methods. Not all Pesticide Companies in Florida get the same price for their work that I do. Only those companies that get a visible response to their treatment, can charge what I charge.

The problem with spot treat treat is HUMAN ERROR whether it is you or ME. In the case of Sedge you must look at the growth pattern and how Cultural and Chemical practice effect it. Sedge grows from Nutlets that are tied together in long chains. Even the Best Herbicide can only Kill back 3 nutlets on a 30 nutlet chain. Before the Sedge emerges again, it grows an other nutlet. What was a 30 Nutlet chain you killed 3 nutlet and grew one. You now have a 28 nutlet chain and must start over again.

Bottom Line is. When you first access the property of a potential customer, You must make an actuate assessment. You must also lay out the fact for the Customer and let them pick the program and cost that fits their Budget. If the Yard is full of Sedge, Then charge for Multiply blanket treatment to control it. But don't cry to me that you can't sell your services at a profit.


I haven't found a good pre. I have good success with pre but when applied in feburary it wears off around June/July and we start seeing nutgrass and crab emerging. Then I'm only aware of a cultural control, but nothing that will kill down to the tubers.

I have searched my chemical manuals and my local university's turf site and found nothing. Ric I know you aren't much on telling people what you do, but I'd love to know at what stage you are spraying and what you are using. As we all know post apps can only get so much kill and nutgrass here grows 3 times faster than the turf.

TJLANDS
06-29-2011, 07:45 PM
TJ

I am sorry if my opinion appears stupid to you. But the fact is I don't have a Sedge problem in any of my yards because I do Blanket Treat for sedge. The original question was "sedge --- spot treat vs blanket app". I simply said IMHO Blanket was a better way to control sedge.

As for the second paragraph about Basics. When I taught College, My slower students kept looking for the Miracle Chemical instead of trying understanding the life cycle of the pest they were dealing with. For that reason they weren't able to pass my course. If they are still in the business they are doing terrible work because they are missing the basics. You must be looking the Miracle Chemical instead of trying to understand the basics. Therefore My commend about Basics went way over your head and that is why you think it is stupid.


BTW Have A Nice Day.

Sorry it is not your opinion that appears stupid, it is right on, it is the attitude.
So Lets get back to the topic.
What exactly are you spraying in your blanket apps.
what rate, time of weed life cycle, and what do you charge for say a 17k application for a lawn that has A major infestation . That is an avg size for us.

I have found that less than 5% of my customers have agreed to blanket apps of Sedge control. And the other day discussing this with a Lawn dr. Franchise owner he said the same, about 5-10%. Your talking about adding a roughly $250 application to a program.
Also whats your avg lawn size in Fla. Probably 5k?
We have tried Dismiss with so/so results, now experimenting with Solitaire.
I have also found that momentum F/x in blanket apps suppresses , and removes sedges some of the time after several years on some lawns.

Ric
06-29-2011, 08:29 PM
.

Once again you guys are asking "WHAT DO I USE?" and not what is the life cycle of the pest. By understanding a pest you are better able to deal with it.

I am trying to teach you TO fish not give you A fish. That is why I normally don't list the Chemicals I use. But just this one time I will list the Herbicides I use but not How Where or When I use them. Metolachlor & sulfosulfuron

IMHO if your states didn't give away Pesticide License in Cracker Jack Boxes then you would have to actually work to learn this stuff. Instead of telling me my post is stupid. BTW an other other Up Side of not having Cracker Jack Box Pesticide Certification is we might not have the Tree Huggers and Granola Nuts killing our Industry.

Good Luck and Have A Nice Day.

dgw
06-29-2011, 08:45 PM
if you spot spray mature plants all you will do is suppress


to kill them you have to hit them when they are young before they develop tubers

NattyLawn
06-29-2011, 08:45 PM
Sorry it is not your opinion that appears stupid, it is right on, it is the attitude.
So Lets get back to the topic.
What exactly are you spraying in your blanket apps.
what rate, time of weed life cycle, and what do you charge for say a 17k application for a lawn that has A major infestation . That is an avg size for us.

I have found that less than 5% of my customers have agreed to blanket apps of Sedge control. And the other day discussing this with a Lawn dr. Franchise owner he said the same, about 5-10%. Your talking about adding a roughly $250 application to a program.
Also whats your avg lawn size in Fla. Probably 5k?
We have tried Dismiss with so/so results, now experimenting with Solitaire.
I have also found that momentum F/x in blanket apps suppresses , and removes sedges some of the time after several years on some lawns.

Solitaire is a mix of Drive and Dismiss. Unless you have other weeds to kill, that's a pretty expensive treatment. I had good results with Dismiss, but I spray when the sedge is long, and tell the customers to wait 24-48 hours after treatment to mow. I spot treat as well, but I charge accordingly and sometimes need to touch up a lawn or five, mostly on lawns where water sits or drains.

WARNING: TREEHUGGER COMMENT:
Honestly, I had my best results with molasses. 16oz per gallon and no reoccurrence this season. Do some experimenting.

vencops
06-29-2011, 08:50 PM
Honestly, I had my best results with molasses. 16oz per gallon and no reoccurrence this season. Do some experimenting.


I'm only kidding (kinda).....but, if you tried that here, I'm sure it would work.

The deer would eat it to the ground.

Think Green
06-29-2011, 09:10 PM
Metolachlor (Pennant) is a good preemergent used for nutsedge control of warm season grasses. The label is great for a whole slew of other broadleaf and grassy weeds.
Sulfosulfuron (Certainty) is a great post emerge.

One is a preemerge and the other a postemerge..................self explanatory.

ted putnam
06-29-2011, 10:33 PM
I have been using Certainty with pretty good results this year. I start hammering it as soon as it emerges and spray any I see each visit. It seems to me that I get better control if the plant is a little more mature and has a little length on the leaf. I spray, the customer irrigates lightly then mows after a couple of days. JMO. I have not used metachlor in the mix. We just started using Certainty this year because of poor results after years of Sedgehammer use.

TJLANDS
06-29-2011, 10:33 PM
.

Once again you guys are asking "WHAT DO I USE?" and not what is the life cycle of the pest. By understanding a pest you are better able to deal with it.

I am trying to teach you TO fish not give you A fish. That is why I normally don't list the Chemicals I use. But just this one time I will list the Herbicides I use but not How Where or When I use them. Metolachlor & sulfosulfuron

IMHO if your states didn't give away Pesticide License in Cracker Jack Boxes then you would have to actually work to learn this stuff. Instead of telling me my post is stupid. BTW an other other Up Side of not having Cracker Jack Box Pesticide Certification is we might not have the Tree Huggers and Granola Nuts killing our Industry.

Good Luck and Have A Nice Day.

Wow you sound like a real loser.
We are all so happy you enlightened us with your little pea brain comments,

I bet you are a great business and family man!:laugh:

greendoctor
06-30-2011, 03:02 AM
I broadcast for sedges as well. That is after I have done everything I can to encourage germination of seeds and purple nutsedge tubers. i would feel like quite the tool if I treated sedges the way my competition does. Spot spray with Prosedge or Sedgehammer. The normal effect of that kind of treatment in Hawaii is to A: create a weed shift to kyllinga and B: purple nutsedge appears in places not previously treated. I have to do something pretty hard to do: provide 99% removal of sedges in irrigated turf with a 12 month growing season. Think Green is also right about application limits on sedge control products. Which is why I will first optimize irrigation and juice a lawn with fertilizer prior to attacking sedges. There are many times I make a client wait while I grow out all of the nutsedge. The lawn and landscape will look bad, then worse for about a month. This way, when I do treat, I am affecting the maximum number of nutlets. The actual attack is done with a walking boom operated at optimal pressure and volume to maximize product contact with weeds while minimizing roll off/runoff of spray. All of this is why people will pay what I ask. The hot shots walking around spot spraying Sedgehammer seem to have to do that constantly and they never effect substantial removal. They spray one and it pops up somewhere else

People that have had lawns for a long time tell me about all of the things they have done in an attempt to kill purple nutsedge. Digging 3-4 deep and trying to sift out the tubers. Injecting the center of each sedge plant with sodium arsenite, Pramitol, and in my time, RoundUp. If someone is old enough, they tell me about stretching poly sheeting over the area and breaking 1 lb cans of methyl bromide under the plastic. It is the old timers who have not killed all of their brain cells that really appreciate how I can treat a lawn very selectively and remove the sedges without making the lawn look like a missile test site.

Here is a good read on purple nutsedge biology and management. http://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/oc/freepubs/pdf/L-9.pdf
I do not have yellow nutsedge. I would prefer that weed over the purple nutsedge because Basagran will kill yellow nutsedge and metolachlor will prevent its emergence. Basagran is also cheap enough to broadcast. But that is something best applied with some kind of spray boom

Ric
06-30-2011, 07:10 AM
Wow you sound like a real loser.
We are all so happy you enlightened us with your little pea brain comments,

I bet you are a great business and family man!:laugh:

TJ


It doesn't take long for the world to figure out who is who on these Internet Forum.

NattyLawn
06-30-2011, 08:27 AM
I broadcast for sedges as well. That is after I have done everything I can to encourage germination of seeds and purple nutsedge tubers. i would feel like quite the tool if I treated sedges the way my competition does. Spot spray with Prosedge or Sedgehammer. The normal effect of that kind of treatment in Hawaii is to A: create a weed shift to kyllinga and B: purple nutsedge appears in places not previously treated. I have to do something pretty hard to do: provide 99% removal of sedges in irrigated turf with a 12 month growing season. Think Green is also right about application limits on sedge control products. Which is why I will first optimize irrigation and juice a lawn with fertilizer prior to attacking sedges. There are many times I make a client wait while I grow out all of the nutsedge. The lawn and landscape will look bad, then worse for about a month. This way, when I do treat, I am affecting the maximum number of nutlets. The actual attack is done with a walking boom operated at optimal pressure and volume to maximize product contact with weeds while minimizing roll off/runoff of spray. All of this is why people will pay what I ask. The hot shots walking around spot spraying Sedgehammer seem to have to do that constantly and they never effect substantial removal. They spray one and it pops up somewhere else

People that have had lawns for a long time tell me about all of the things they have done in an attempt to kill purple nutsedge. Digging 3-4 deep and trying to sift out the tubers. Injecting the center of each sedge plant with sodium arsenite, Pramitol, and in my time, RoundUp. If someone is old enough, they tell me about stretching poly sheeting over the area and breaking 1 lb cans of methyl bromide under the plastic. It is the old timers who have not killed all of their brain cells that really appreciate how I can treat a lawn very selectively and remove the sedges without making the lawn look like a missile test site.

Here is a good read on purple nutsedge biology and management. http://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/oc/freepubs/pdf/L-9.pdf
I do not have yellow nutsedge. I would prefer that weed over the purple nutsedge because Basagran will kill yellow nutsedge and metolachlor will prevent its emergence. Basagran is also cheap enough to broadcast. But that is something best applied with some kind of spray boom

Great post! I wish I had the control over a property like you do, but sadly I do not.

cgaengineer
06-30-2011, 05:03 PM
Spot unless its a very large area.

grassman177
06-30-2011, 07:21 PM
first i would like to say that i think ric was right on with his comments, too bad some of you cant handle the truth i guess cuz the first one he made was not at all inflamitory.

second, for the OP, i blanket lawns with previous issues (and of course current ones) with sulfentrazone(dismiss or it is in surge). this acts as a suppressor very well i have found. i have sedghammer but rarely use it cuz of cost and pain to mix well.

when i have a patch i spray more than that area to cover about twice the area around it for better suppression from sulfentrazone.....and it seems to work very well.

Hogjaw
06-30-2011, 09:42 PM
Basagran T/O here is $124.00 - on the ag side is $120.00???????

greendoctor
07-01-2011, 01:03 AM
Usage rate of a quart per acre + MSO. That is not bad compared to the price of halosulfuron generic or brand name Sedgehammer. I do not use much Sedgehammer because of the severe kyllinga problem in my area. This old product also kills some annual weeds that are not spurge, dandelion, clover or oxalis. It is also labeled for burn down of thistles.

A long time ago, I used Basagran against most sedges. Found out it was very poor on purple nutsedge. However, this product has made a come back. According to my Agrium rep, golf courses here are tank mixing Basagran with Image to kill kyllinga. Image by itself is slow and does not burn down big kyllinga.

grassmasterswilson
07-02-2011, 02:16 PM
anyone used any katana? Rep said that a late applicaion(maybe the last round) would help prevent some sedges the following season.

This also seems to be a complete product that will get grasses, sedges, and some broadleafs. Wonder the cost vs. a celcius/halosulfuron mix. Would need a separate spray for st aug and fescue. What about warm temps?

cgaengineer
07-03-2011, 04:36 PM
I just saw an ad in Turf for Katana...it looks pretty good.
Posted via Mobile Device

greendoctor
07-04-2011, 03:55 PM
I was involved in some product testing for Katana in Hawaii. It took out sedges, many broadeaves, crabgrass and many weedy species of paspalum. However, it cannot be used on st augustine or cool season grasses. I was told that the approximate price was around $100 per ounce and usage rates up to 3 oz per acre with the need to re treat in 21-30 days for complete kill could get expensive. But in my area, anything is cheaper than a kill and re sod. Any renovation that does not involve fumigation of the soil will not prevent reinfestation by sedges and grassy weeds. All fumigants, including Basamid are now RUP, with restrictions on usage sites. Expensive herbicides now seem very reasonable in this context.

The AI of Katana, flazasulfuron has been used in Japan for weed control in zoysia turf for a very long time. Halosulfuron and sulfosulfuron are also products of Japanese chemical companies.

TLS
07-04-2011, 04:30 PM
Is it me or was Nutsedge not around until the last decade or so. Never remember it as a child or young adult mowing grass. Is it like the stinkbug? Introduced from China!?! lol

greendoctor
07-04-2011, 05:27 PM
I think it is you and the client. Raised expectations on their part and you being in the business noticing it. In another time, I remember lawns that were mostly mowed kyllinga. Nutsedge was always a sore subject here, hence the stories about injecting it with arsenic or gassing the soil.

TLS
07-04-2011, 05:31 PM
I have no memories of it until maybe Y2K or so. Remember mowing a nice lawn of mine in the 80's and 90's and then all of a sudden, they had a HUGE outbreak of it back in '05 or so. It's partially what got me motivated enough to go get my applicators license!

greendoctor
07-04-2011, 05:38 PM
I do know that hot weather alternated with wet weather brings it out like nothing else. I do have some newly acquired properties that did not have much nutsedge in them when I took them on. But now, after 6 months of cold, rain, and wind have given way to sun, there it is.

Ben Greener
08-04-2011, 07:08 PM
I have decent luck with sedgehammer/ prosedge (halosulferon methyl), and with respect to spot-treat vs. blanket, I do a little of both.

If I see that the nutsedge is in discrete patches, I'd just spot-treat the patches. If on the other hand the nutsedge is more-or-less dispersed throughout the lawn, I'd blanket across the infested areas. Wait up to a week after the lawn was last mowed so that the sedge stands out in relief and has a good deal of surface area. Non-ionic spreader seems to help my success rates. Follow-up visit is a good idea also, especially if the customer has a low tolerance for sedges.

ted putnam
08-04-2011, 11:49 PM
Call me cheap but broadcast apps of Manage,Certainty and Dismiss can be expensive. If at all possible, I break out the backpack with a T-jet nozzle and spot spray. I can cover a very large lawn pretty quick making long 8ft wide passes back and forth. A lawn would have to be heavily infested for me to tank mix it for control. I have tank mixed it but only on rare occasions and only what I need to get the job done in my Z-spray. It is calibrated and covers thoroughly and evenly...and FAST. Like I said, I usually just take a little extra time and walk the lawn. JMO