PDA

View Full Version : Supplier says dranage sleeves are no longer recommended


bigslick7878
06-29-2011, 01:30 PM
Just called a huge supplier trying to get a price on a perforated drain pipe sleeve and he told me they don't sell them anymore. I asked why because I was just in the showroom not too long ago and they had them.

He said (NationalAssociation.... of something) has taken them out of their recommendation because they studied it and they could create a "damming point".

Is this true? Anyone heard of this?

Honestly I always thought the sleeve was pretty unnecessary to begin with.

DVS Hardscaper
06-29-2011, 02:50 PM
what is a drain pipe sleeve?

are you taling about the 6 or so inch coupler used with black flex tubing? if so, we havent used them in decades, as yes, they are not water tight.




;

STL Ponds and Waterfalls
06-29-2011, 03:14 PM
Or you talking about the sock that goes over the pipe?

TomG
06-29-2011, 10:44 PM
I'm sure hes talking about the sock that goes over the pipe. Its just like how NCMA stopped telling people to use filter fabric in between your stone and your dirt back fill. It just ends up getting clogged with fines and becomes useless.

bigslick7878
06-29-2011, 10:51 PM
I'm sure hes talking about the sock that goes over the pipe. Its just like how NCMA stopped telling people to use filter fabric in between your stone and your dirt back fill. It just ends up getting clogged with fines and becomes useless.

NCMA was what he said, nice call. And yes I was talking about the fabric sleeve that goes over the pipe. Did not know about the stone/backfill either.Thanks for the info.

What is funny is I did another job with that drain pipe, didn't have a sleeve and had a county inspector come out to look at the grinder pump and other stuff, and he says to me "all that is going to do is get clogged if you don't have the sleeve, it will collapse and be useless" on a french drain I was putting in.

I thought about it for a minute and came to the conclusion he didn't know what he was talking about. Looks like NCMA backs that up.

Stillwater
06-29-2011, 11:16 PM
I will call BS on this and continiue to use filter fabric on my pipeing

Danscapes
06-29-2011, 11:46 PM
do they recommend this?

http://www.ndspro.com/images/stories/pdfs/general/brochures/ezflow-brochure.pdf

DVS Hardscaper
06-30-2011, 12:18 AM
Ya know, this is funny. It's really really hard to argue with first hand experineces.

We almost never wrap fabric around a drain pipe.

We encase the drywell, or whatever it is, in fabric.

I know for a fact that without ANY fabric, a drain pipe WILL clog with sediment / mud. No one from NCMA or any other organization will convince me any different.

In 2009 we were contracted to build a paver patio and replace a masonry wall going into a basement of a house. Tore the wall apart, which was about 3-4 feet below grade. The bottom course of masonry block was full of water inside the cores. In other words, water *leached* through the block and collected in the block's cores. About 5 yrs prior, the home owner paid a water proofing company $10 grand to do drainage work. They installed 4" perforated pipe.......WITH NO FABRIC.

Well, that pipe wall completely impacted with sediment, so water was collecting behind the masonry wall. And it wasn't just a baseball size blockage. I had my guys try to clean out the mud, but the blockage ran solid for more than 10-feet of pipe.

We had to fix it.

And we had to charge the client.

Luckily, the client was home when we made the discovery and he could see right off the bat what we discovered. Otherwise if I had to call him at work, he would have thought for sure I was trying to scam him!

It involved installing drain pipe, properly wrapped, and placed in 3/4" aggregate, with the pipe going into a 5x5x5 drywell. This cost the client an additional $1500.00.

I always remember Paver Pete a few recent years ago tell about how he knows an old guy in the paver business, and is very successful. Really knows his stuff. Pete said the old guy operates off of wisdom that he acquired on his own, and Pete mentioned that this old man laughs at ICPI and will never have anything to do with ICPI.

I often think me and that old man whom I have no clue is, are of similar mindset.

I'm a thinker. And I think about things, and think about things. I do things and observe, and I observe, and I observe. And I learn.

Sure fabric may clog over the years. But a pipe not wrapped in fabric, or somehow shielded by fabric......WILL clog Long long long long long before that fabric will.

And I know this, not from any class or seminar, not from theory, but from 1st hand experince.

Stillwater
06-30-2011, 12:37 AM
I'm a thinker. And I think about things, and think about things. I do things and observe, and I observe, and I observe. And I learn.

Sure fabric may clog over the years. But a pipe not wrapped in fabric, or somehow shielded by fabric......WILL clog Long long long long long before that fabric will.

And I know this, not from any class or seminar, not from theory, but from 1st hand experince.



I like your mindset, This needed repeating............

PatriotLandscape
06-30-2011, 10:01 AM
While I won't disagree with the ncma. My feeling any pipe is better than no pipe
Posted via Mobile Device

PatriotLandscape
06-30-2011, 10:10 AM
While I won't disagree with the ncma. My feeling any pipe is better than no pipe
Posted via Mobile Device

DVS Hardscaper
06-30-2011, 10:12 AM
While I won't disagree with the ncma. My feeling any pipe is better than no pipe
Posted via Mobile Device

Patriot, they're not sayin to do away with pipe, they're sayin to do away with putting a sleeve over it.

Another example I have is we used to store our pipe in an area that storm water ran through. Last June I cleaned up the pipe, to find some of it to be heavier in weight because mud was in it!

.
Posted via Mobile Device

bigslick7878
06-30-2011, 01:03 PM
Ya know, this is funny. It's really really hard to argue with first hand experineces.

We almost never wrap fabric around a drain pipe.

We encase the drywell, or whatever it is, in fabric.

I know for a fact that without ANY fabric, a drain pipe WILL clog with sediment / mud. No one from NCMA or any other organization will convince me any different.

In 2009 we were contracted to build a paver patio and replace a masonry wall going into a basement of a house. Tore the wall apart, which was about 3-4 feet below grade. The bottom course of masonry block was full of water inside the cores. In other words, water *leached* through the block and collected in the block's cores. About 5 yrs prior, the home owner paid a water proofing company $10 grand to do drainage work. They installed 4" perforated pipe.......WITH NO FABRIC.

Well, that pipe wall completely impacted with sediment, so water was collecting behind the masonry wall. And it wasn't just a baseball size blockage. I had my guys try to clean out the mud, but the blockage ran solid for more than 10-feet of pipe.

We had to fix it.

And we had to charge the client.

Luckily, the client was home when we made the discovery and he could see right off the bat what we discovered. Otherwise if I had to call him at work, he would have thought for sure I was trying to scam him!

It involved installing drain pipe, properly wrapped, and placed in 3/4" aggregate, with the pipe going into a 5x5x5 drywell. This cost the client an additional $1500.00.

I always remember Paver Pete a few recent years ago tell about how he knows an old guy in the paver business, and is very successful. Really knows his stuff. Pete said the old guy operates off of wisdom that he acquired on his own, and Pete mentioned that this old man laughs at ICPI and will never have anything to do with ICPI.

I often think me and that old man whom I have no clue is, are of similar mindset.

I'm a thinker. And I think about things, and think about things. I do things and observe, and I observe, and I observe. And I learn.

Sure fabric may clog over the years. But a pipe not wrapped in fabric, or somehow shielded by fabric......WILL clog Long long long long long before that fabric will.

And I know this, not from any class or seminar, not from theory, but from 1st hand experience.

The water in the block could have had nothing to do with the pipe at all. How is that for a "theory"?.

When I put a sump pump in my basement we drilled holes in all the blocks because of water problems.....and water poured out of every one. That had everything to down with a grade/drainage problem and nothing to do with any drain pipe.

I find it extremely hard to believe that a drainage pipe was responsible for those walls filling up with water. Matter of fact I would bank on it having nothing to do with it at all.

PatriotLandscape
06-30-2011, 01:57 PM
I know what they are saying. I am a ncma instructor. One thing we need to realize is that they are engineers designing these walls for a 75 year life expectancy. I know none of us have been installing that long. They must have some field testing and science behind everything they recommend it's not just because they think it's good or a bad practice.
Posted via Mobile Device

PatriotLandscape
06-30-2011, 01:59 PM
I was saying sleeved or not at least there is pipe behind the wall. Some don't believe in any.
Posted via Mobile Device

DVS Hardscaper
06-30-2011, 03:10 PM
The water in the block could have had nothing to do with the pipe at all. How is that for a "theory"?.

When I put a sump pump in my basement we drilled holes in all the blocks because of water problems.....and water poured out of every one. That had everything to down with a grade/drainage problem and nothing to do with any drain pipe.

I find it extremely hard to believe that a drainage pipe was responsible for those walls filling up with water. Matter of fact I would bank on it having nothing to do with it at all.


thanks for the follow up, great hearin from you :)

Again,
We're not writing a novel on these forums. My participation here is Always submitted in the "in a nutshell" form. I'm not writing every detal nor will I ever because I don't think anyone really is interested in hearin about the sump pump system and the drain under the basement floor, etc. I am not a lawn guy that dabbles in a h-scape job or two here and there, our success rate with drainage issues is 100%, and I enjoy it. Very rewarding to do something simple and make a customer very happy.

Stay busy, and keep up the great work.
Posted via Mobile Device

DVS Hardscaper
06-30-2011, 03:19 PM
I know what they are saying. I am a ncma instructor. One thing we need to realize is that they are engineers designing these walls for a 75 year life expectancy. I know none of us have been installing that long. They must have some field testing and science behind everything they recommend it's not just because they think it's good or a bad practice.
Posted via Mobile Device


I think most folks realize that.

I'm also reminded of the levy in new Orleans. Designed by engineers....

.
Posted via Mobile Device

Stillwater
06-30-2011, 11:11 PM
I know what they are saying. I am a ncma instructor. One thing we need to realize is that they are engineers designing these walls for a 75 year life expectancy. I know none of us have been installing that long. They must have some field testing and science behind everything they recommend it's not just because they think it's good or a bad practice.
Posted via Mobile Device

So are you currently teaching that filter fabric /socks are not necessary? have you personally stopped this in your projects?

PatriotLandscape
07-01-2011, 08:59 AM
Yes it is what I teach in the class and we do not use filter fabrics on our projects.

In my area we have sandy gravel for fill and Very little clay so we build in ideal conditions for most projects.
Posted via Mobile Device

STL Ponds and Waterfalls
07-01-2011, 05:23 PM
Yes it is what I teach in the class and we do not use filter fabrics on our projects.

In my area we have sandy gravel for fill and Very little clay so we build in ideal conditions for most projects.
Posted via Mobile Device

So in my area we build in red,gray, clay, silty soil, ROCK, and anything but nice soil. I backfill with twice the clean rock than most for cheap insurance. On a 4' wall I have 2 feet of clean with a socked pipe, is this not advisable anymore?

jonesy5149
07-01-2011, 06:00 PM
So in my area we build in red,gray, clay, silty soil, ROCK, and anything but nice soil. I backfill with twice the clean rock than most for cheap insurance. On a 4' wall I have 2 feet of clean with a socked pipe, is this not advisable anymore?

Nope they say 3 feet........... and paver pete says that it will take a long time to clog 3 feet wide of 3/4 rock.
This is what i have to say and it is only my option and i have lots of walls up and they are nothing small.. STL not a blow at you (venting)

Im ok with the 3 feet and no sock..Blaaa blaa;)
Im not ok with them teaching us to use 2 feet of clean rock and fabric and then giving use that certification on the right way to do it. Is the 3 feet the right way???? Sooooooo what is to say or who is to say the way we have been doing things are wrong????:cry:
I do lots of commercial work and for the small lawn boys doing hardscaping that means you need or pavement or concrete under the sand in a walk way or patio!! (Engineered junk) Is that the right way??
I guess me just sitting here going no were with this is saying IF YOU DO THE WORK AND YOU WILL BACK IT UP USE A SOCK OR DONT BUT IT IS YOUR WORK!!!! I dont use a sock...
Fist pump im out!!!! :laugh:

Stillwater
07-01-2011, 10:28 PM
who is paver pete?

DVS Hardscaper
07-01-2011, 10:36 PM
I have never put that sock thing on our pipe. And no. I don't mean that pipe! To me it's one of those money makin gimmics.

It sounds so simple to excavate 3' instead of 2. Yeah, if you have room to place all that soil.

Fabric has been used to separate soil from
Whatever for decades maybe a century or two. And walls are not failing left and right from a result of it.
Posted via Mobile Device

DVS Hardscaper
07-01-2011, 10:42 PM
who is paver pete?

He is the concrete sales guy from Techo bloc that was yelling at people at his Techo seminars this past winter. He's the guy that yelled at the guy that questioned him hen he mentioned comPacting bedding sand. And he told the guy "I've been doing this for years and I teach this and that" in a nasty tone!

Oh, wait, didn't you say you attended??

.
Posted via Mobile Device

Stillwater
07-02-2011, 03:49 AM
No I never attended that seminar, never herd of a guy called paver pete either until now

DVS Hardscaper
07-02-2011, 11:01 AM
No I never attended that seminar, never herd of a guy called paver pete either until now

oh, i was thinking of someone else.


,

Stillwater
07-02-2011, 11:27 AM
The closest I ever came to a techo seminar was when picking up a flat of cobble stone at my suppler some reps were having a barbecue, They had a huge tent set up I got a few t-shirts, some hot dogs and drinks. We chatted about everything but Techo, Does this count?

DVS Hardscaper
07-02-2011, 05:48 PM
The closest I ever came to a techo seminar was when picking up a flat of cobble stone at my suppler some reps were having a barbecue, They had a huge tent set up I got a few t-shirts, some hot dogs and drinks. We chatted about everything but Techo, Does this count?

No. It only counts if Pete was telling yew how he has installed pavrrrs in 44 states and 4 counteries.......


.

jonesy5149
07-02-2011, 06:48 PM
No. It only counts if Pete was telling yew how he has installed pavrrrs in 44 states and 4 counteries.......


.

THAT IS THE TRUTH..........:drinkup:
don't forget the chew spit wile he is talking........

Murphy's Law
07-03-2011, 05:20 PM
Wait a minute...I wrap the 4 in perferated pipe and separate the clean stone from the native soils...Like DVS says no problems with field results.

It's funny (read very confusing) how NCMA and ICPI keep changing things every year. And it's not like they are coming up with new stuff, they seems to keep flip flopping like a politician. The only truly new idea I've heard in a while is the anchorplex drainage system.

http://www.anchorwall.com/cmsVirtualUserfiles/TechMatl/Brochures/Using-Anchorplex-EW820-DPRO-WEB.pdf

DVS Hardscaper
07-03-2011, 05:49 PM
Wait a minute...I wrap the 4 in perferated pipe and separate the clean stone from the native soils...Like DVS says no problems with field results.

It's funny (read very confusing) how NCMA and ICPI keep changing things every year. And it's not like they are coming up with new stuff, they seems to keep flip flopping like a politician. The only truly new idea I've heard in a while is the anchorplex drainage system.

http://www.anchorwall.com/cmsVirtualUserfiles/TechMatl/Brochures/Using-Anchorplex-EW820-DPRO-WEB.pdf

Retaining walls and interlocking pavements date back to way before our great grand parents were born. And ICPI and NCMA are trying to reinvent the wheel and make great new discoveries. I guess so the organizations can appear as if they're making new strides and actually doing something.

Really,
Engineering is only numbers. A person comes with with an idea and an engineer runs the numbers and calculations,
More or less giving an idea an ok.

Cornerstone wall block was created by Vern, whom isn't an engineer, but created his block from his experiences in the field.


.
Posted via Mobile Device

SVA_Concrete
07-03-2011, 08:38 PM
http://www.anchorwall.com/cmsVirtualUserfiles/TechMatl/Brochures/Using-Anchorplex-EW820-DPRO-WEB.pdf

That looks pretty slick, they are calling pervious concrete structural backfill correct?

pieperlc
07-03-2011, 09:20 PM
Posted via Mobile Device

Murphy's Law
07-05-2011, 06:09 PM
It essentially makes the block larger allowing you to build higher without grid. Less excavation is the selling point.

esenterprise
09-12-2011, 05:11 PM
Maybe I missed it.

But why have the institute said that we should not use filter fabric socks on drain pipe in french drains. Someone said it was because the sock could block the drain pipe? How does it block the drain pipe?

bobcat_ron
09-12-2011, 06:27 PM
Good riddance, that fabric was always useless, it's been outlawed here in favor of perforated PVC pipe and drain rock and a paper barrier over the rock.
Posted via Mobile Device

zak406
09-12-2011, 09:32 PM
Wait a minute...I wrap the 4 in perferated pipe and separate the clean stone from the native soils...Like DVS says no problems with field results.

It's funny (read very confusing) how NCMA and ICPI keep changing things every year. And it's not like they are coming up with new stuff, they seems to keep flip flopping like a politician. The only truly new idea I've heard in a while is the anchorplex drainage system.

http://www.anchorwall.com/cmsVirtualUserfiles/TechMatl/Brochures/Using-Anchorplex-EW820-DPRO-WEB.pdf

Those walls look like they would be a pain in the ass!