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dgw
07-17-2011, 08:18 PM
im doing a design at a house that the owner gets organic lawn care


as i walked the property i noticed the lawn had weeds everywhere, and the easy ones (dandelions , clover, plantains)

she said she has been with them for 5 years


she wants organic because of dogs and kids, so when i was there i just stuck with what i was there to do and didnt try to sell a spray


but my question is do organic guys control weeds or was this just an unexperienced company?


i never got into organic so i honestly dont know

vencops
07-17-2011, 08:22 PM
I can see it (organic control) working.......................over a LONG period of time (and time invested by the LCO).

Subscribed!

CHARLES CUE
07-17-2011, 09:48 PM
There's a product called Fiesta [not sure of the spelling ] might have some promise. Go to the organic form and check there.

Charles Cue

dgw
07-17-2011, 09:52 PM
i was just curios if they did in general

she seemed to like the company she was with, and i dont intend to attempt any type of organic weed treatment

RigglePLC
07-17-2011, 10:37 PM
Experiments at Michigan State U. found that grass mowed tall and fertilized with nitrogen at around 6 pounds per year had very low levels of weeds.
Also, if you can sod, seed or overseed with a tighter variety of Kentucky bluegrass--this will crowd out many weeds. You want an athletic field type, Sydsport and newer types that creep aggressively. They are thatch-formers, but resist weeds and poa better than most.
And (if you don't have conifers like spruce and white pine) Imprelis is highly effective. You only need about an ounce for an average lawn. And the safety profile is excellent--it is an official federal "Reduced Risk" product. It is about 100 times safer than Ortho Weed B Gone. Probably on sale.

HayBay
07-17-2011, 11:49 PM
Organics or even pretend organics like FIESTA

If the stuff worked we would all be using it and showing off the pictures of customers lawns treated with the stuff.

You don't see that much.

phasthound
07-18-2011, 12:07 AM
A purely organic lawn care program relies mainly on good cultural methods to reduce weeds. Over seeding with quality seed matched to site conditions, proper irrigation and mowing are critical to crowding out weeds. These are the same methods used for successful conventional turf programs.

Corn gluten can work as a pre-emergent for annual weeds. Fiesta is a mineral based bio-herbicide for post emergent broadleaf control however it is not classified as organic.

It may be acceptable to use herbicides when starting a program where there is more than 25% weed cover. This is usually up to the client. Many organic clients will chose weeds over chemicals.

The main difference between organic and traditional programs is learning how to grow healthy turf by improving soil heath rather than treating for pests and weeds. A good organic program implemented by someone with proper training will produce a thick healthy turf with a few weeds.

I personally think there is nothing wrong with an organic program that allows for occasional spot treatments when required to control outbreaks and a few weeds. I also believe that far too many chemicals are being used unwisely.

phasthound
07-18-2011, 12:23 AM
Organics or even pretend organics like FIESTA

If the stuff worked we would all be using it and showing off the pictures of customers lawns treated with the stuff.

You don't see that much.

This is an organic baseball field at the end of spring baseball season.

Ric
07-18-2011, 10:57 AM
DGW

I think both Riggles and Slow Dog make great points about TOTAL CULTURAL CONTROL along with Organics. Organics can work over a very long period of time, but require total attention paid to every detail. Even Chemical Yard care works 100% better when used in conjunction with proper Cultural practices.

One of the biggest Mistakes I see every day is how 90% of those cutting grass don't know how to use a Weed Eater. The lack of Education in this industry is appalling. Not everyone is smart enough to cut grass. It is those who aren't smart enough to hold a real job, that end up cutting Grass.

johnroscoe
07-18-2011, 12:50 PM
While not "organic" per se, we have a couple properties that we have overseen from seed bed prep right up through mowing today. One in particular has such thick grass that in the last 5 years since it was planted, we've never applied any kind of weed control except to the curb area. It's about 5 acres, and there are currently fewer weeds in it than my 1/3 acre lot at home.

It gets a strong dose of slow release N twice a year, but mostly good seed selection and informed mowing choices are the reason it looks so nice. We could easily substitute some sort of organic fert on it and it would look as nice, but at a higher cost.

HayBay
07-18-2011, 01:07 PM
I personally think there is nothing wrong with an organic program that allows for occasional spot treatments when required to control outbreaks and a few weeds.

That is the story you will get, right there

Organic but spot sprayed when needed. (people used to call this a bridge program)

Take away the 2,4-D and you are going to have a lot of weeds.
Unless you spend 10 times (at least) as much on irrigation, seeding, hand weeding and more hand weeding.
It would become a full time job to maintain just 1 property.

Chip Osborne Knows how to maintain an organic turf, at $100,000 - $300,000 a year in costs.
Chip Osborne helped put together an Organic Municipal Lawn Program in Colorado, it cost $300,000 a year to hand weed, goats and put out predator bugs, aerate, overseed.
They used to spend $15,000 a year on Glyphosate and 2,4-D


Thick Healthy Lawn that crowds out weeds? You mean Chemical Applicators don't want this kind of results too? Its not just an organic thing. Cultural practices are nothing new.

Check out Jeff Carlsons stuff, the Super at Marthas Vineyard Golf Club, $350,000 a year membership. He will tell you about organic. They are 80% organic. Dont be upset when you hear compost tea was a failure for him. They spent about $20,000 -$30,000 in labor a year to hand pick weeds

Cornells, Frank Rossi lost his funding for his organic program at Bethpage Golf Club. He was only maintaining practice tees organically and it was not working out very well.


My favorite is when there are no other organic products on the market at the time and the lawns look like failures, they start ranting about imprelis in the groud water, and everyones gonna die.

You basically have 3 years from the date of no Pesticide inputs to watch the turf turn into a weed/turf combination.

There are exceptions, but very very few. If you think you can maintain 50 customers lawns organically and there will be very little weeds to no weeds present. You will be wrong. Just imagine 500-1000 customers.

I remember when using 2,4-D in the past there was very little product required to maintain a yard.
With Alternative Products you are using gallons of active ingredient compared to ounces of it and the results are still no good.

Pray that 2,4-D is not banned in your neighbourhood

Ric
07-18-2011, 01:53 PM
That is the story you will get, right there

Organic but spot sprayed when needed. (people used to call this a bridge program)

Take away the 2,4-D and you are going to have a lot of weeds.
Unless you spend 10 times (at least) as much on irrigation, seeding, hand weeding and more hand weeding.
It would become a full time job to maintain just 1 property.

Chip Osborne Knows how to maintain an organic turf, at $100,000 - $300,000 a year in costs.
Chip Osborne helped put together an Organic Municipal Lawn Program in Colorado, it cost $300,000 a year to hand weed, goats and put out predator bugs, aerate, overseed.
They used to spend $15,000 a year on Glyphosate and 2,4-D


Thick Healthy Lawn that crowds out weeds? You mean Chemical Applicators don't want this kind of results too? Its not just an organic thing. Cultural practices are nothing new.

Check out Jeff Carlsons stuff, the Super at Marthas Vineyard Golf Club, $350,000 a year membership. He will tell you about organic. They are 80% organic. Dont be upset when you hear compost tea was a failure for him. They spent about $20,000 -$30,000 in labor a year to hand pick weeds

Cornells, Frank Rossi lost his funding for his organic program at Bethpage Golf Club. He was only maintaining practice tees organically and it was not working out very well.


My favorite is when there are no other organic products on the market at the time and the lawns look like failures, they start ranting about imprelis in the groud water, and everyones gonna die.

You basically have 3 years from the date of no Pesticide inputs to watch the turf turn into a weed/turf combination.

There are exceptions, but very very few. If you think you can maintain 50 customers lawns organically and there will be very little weeds to no weeds present. You will be wrong. Just imagine 500-1000 customers.

I remember when using 2,4-D in the past there was very little product required to maintain a yard.
With Alternative Products you are using gallons of active ingredient compared to ounces of it and the results are still no good.

Pray that 2,4-D is not banned in your neighbourhood


Older Member will appreciate a Quote from the infamous Lawrence Stone. BTW I am not taking the time to actually find the Quote in the archives.

I hope you have a 5 ton Truck and a folf lift to handle your organic fertilizers.


Hay Bay

No one said a Orgasm was cheap.

I owe you a half apology. I was thinking you were a Cheap Canadian Tree Hugger and Granola Nut. I just realized you aren't a Tree Hugger Granola Nut. But I will disagree on the Terminology of a Bridge Program. Spot treating a Orgasmic program with a synthetic herbicide is not a Bridge Program. It is cheating on your Granola Nuts that are paying for a Orgasm.

A Bridge Program is the blanket application of Both Organic and Synthetic products. Sewage Sludge as filler in a Synthetic Blend of fertilizer is in fact a Bridge Product. Bridge programs take advantage of both world and everyone should consider the advantages of Bridge Programs. If the Granola Nut had any common sense they might realize a Bridge program and it's results are a lot more acceptable to the general public and still environmentally friendly.

HayBay
07-18-2011, 02:08 PM
It is cheating on your Granola Nuts that are paying for a Orgasm.



I like your description of bridge program better.


That Lawrence Stone quote was an excellent one.

Ric
07-18-2011, 02:38 PM
I like your description of bridge program better.


That Lawrence Stone quote was an excellent one.

Hay Bay

Here in the Bug Capital of US of America, Orgasmic programs are not working. But Some are trying to sell Orgasmic programs and then Cheating by using Synthetic programs. Natural Zone out of Sarasota sold the School boards on their Orgasmic Program Years ago. Only trouble is I have watched them apply Dursban all over the school yard Back in the day. They were targeting Mole Crickets in early September which should tell you they didn't have a clue in the first place. Early May is the best window of opportunity for Mole Crickets. Diaizion not Dursban would of been smart choice as a control for Mole Crickets back then.


Stone was Ban long before you joint LS. But if you like cynical humor the Fugal Agronomist was fun to read. kind of Like a Frank Fescue but much more vicious. Stone is now a 1st assist on a 27 hole Golf Course Resort in the Western Poconos about an hour and a half out of NYC. He just bought a house in the Poconos for cash and will be closing in two weeks. Yes I talk with him a few times each week.

nik
07-18-2011, 03:13 PM
Even Chemical Yard care works 100% better when used in conjunction with proper Cultural practices.

That's the sad part, innit? That folks just don't know that to begin with.

Ric
07-18-2011, 04:02 PM
That's the sad part, innit? That folks just don't know that to begin with.

Nik

If you are going to quote me (or anyone) Please give credit where credit is due.

GrandMaster
07-18-2011, 09:08 PM
im doing a design at a house that the owner gets organic lawn care


as i walked the property i noticed the lawn had weeds everywhere, and the easy ones (dandelions , clover, plantains)

she said she has been with them for 5 years


she wants organic because of dogs and kids, so when i was there i just stuck with what i was there to do and didnt try to sell a spray


but my question is do organic guys control weeds or was this just an unexperienced company?


i never got into organic so i honestly dont know

Ive had ok results with corn meal / soy bean meal for feed and spot spray with canning salt with vinager and dish soap. MAke it thick and use a paint brush to wipe only the leafs on weeds.

dgw
07-18-2011, 09:30 PM
Ive had ok results with corn meal / soy bean meal for feed and spot spray with canning salt with vinager and dish soap. MAke it thick and use a paint brush to wipe only the leafs on weeds.


interesting

honestly though im not interested in trying any organic products

she seems happy with her organic guys, so ill just stick to doing her landscaping and keep doing regular fert and spray elsewhere


cultural practices yes, i promote it as much as possibly



but she had them for 5 years and the lawn was filled with weeds, so i was just curios if organic guys actually used something to target weeds

or if they just relied on building a healthy stand of turfgrass

GrandMaster
07-18-2011, 09:39 PM
interesting

honestly though im not interested in trying any organic products

she seems happy with her organic guys, so ill just stick to doing her landscaping and keep doing regular fert and spray elsewhere


cultural practices yes, i promote it as much as possibly



but she had them for 5 years and the lawn was filled with weeds, so i was just curios if organic guys actually used something to target weeds

or if they just relied on building a healthy stand of turfgrass

I hate it also but this customer makes it very well worth my time im talking like 4 times the reg rates

Ric
07-18-2011, 11:00 PM
I hate it also but this customer makes it very well worth my time im talking like 4 times the reg rates

Interesting Fact about Tree Hugger I have experienced. Let them get Fleas or Tick etc inside the house. They really don't care what you use to get rid of their pests.

NattyLawn
07-18-2011, 11:25 PM
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Having previously worked for an organic (or organic based) company, a lot of the perception of how the lawn looks is up to the customer. There were lawns that I didn't like stopping the truck in front of, and customers would tell me the lawn looked better than ever. Most say they don't want a golf course (I'd like a dollar for how many times I've heard that) and some actually mean it. The hardcore organic people seem to hate clover the most, as the attraction of bees can lead to stings for their barefoot kids.

As far as weed control Green Guardian and Fiesta are the two main weed controls. I liked GG better, but as it was mentioned earlier, the organics rarely kill the weeds completely. The materials are too expensive to be used in their correct manner, IMO.

ted putnam
07-19-2011, 01:48 AM
That is the story you will get, right there

Organic but spot sprayed when needed. (people used to call this a bridge program)

Take away the 2,4-D and you are going to have a lot of weeds.
Unless you spend 10 times (at least) as much on irrigation, seeding, hand weeding and more hand weeding.
It would become a full time job to maintain just 1 property.

Chip Osborne Knows how to maintain an organic turf, at $100,000 - $300,000 a year in costs.
Chip Osborne helped put together an Organic Municipal Lawn Program in Colorado, it cost $300,000 a year to hand weed, goats and put out predator bugs, aerate, overseed.
They used to spend $15,000 a year on Glyphosate and 2,4-D


Thick Healthy Lawn that crowds out weeds? You mean Chemical Applicators don't want this kind of results too? Its not just an organic thing. Cultural practices are nothing new.

Check out Jeff Carlsons stuff, the Super at Marthas Vineyard Golf Club, $350,000 a year membership. He will tell you about organic. They are 80% organic. Dont be upset when you hear compost tea was a failure for him. They spent about $20,000 -$30,000 in labor a year to hand pick weeds

Cornells, Frank Rossi lost his funding for his organic program at Bethpage Golf Club. He was only maintaining practice tees organically and it was not working out very well.


My favorite is when there are no other organic products on the market at the time and the lawns look like failures, they start ranting about imprelis in the groud water, and everyones gonna die.

You basically have 3 years from the date of no Pesticide inputs to watch the turf turn into a weed/turf combination.

There are exceptions, but very very few. If you think you can maintain 50 customers lawns organically and there will be very little weeds to no weeds present. You will be wrong. Just imagine 500-1000 customers.

I remember when using 2,4-D in the past there was very little product required to maintain a yard.
With Alternative Products you are using gallons of active ingredient compared to ounces of it and the results are still no good.

Pray that 2,4-D is not banned in your neighbourhood

Wow. Interesting thread and an enlightening post. Sounds like your hands have been tied and you're none to happy. If so, I can understand why.

I have a license to SPRAY. I made a commitment to my customers to provide them with a green,virtually weed free lawn. To take away my ability to do what I have agreed to do for the customer in a cost effective, responsible manner would make me a little bitter. I'm afraid if I were put in the same situation as you, I would be watching my business die instead of grow....

Ric
07-19-2011, 09:12 AM
Wow. Interesting thread and an enlightening post. Sounds like your hands have been tied and you're none to happy. If so, I can understand why.

I have a license to SPRAY. I made a commitment to my customers to provide them with a green,virtually weed free lawn. To take away my ability to do what I have agreed to do for the customer in a cost effective, responsible manner would make me a little bitter. I'm afraid if I were put in the same situation as you, I would be watching my business die instead of grow....

Ted

Agriculture and Golf Courses have big time lobbying power and so we are the Easy target. The Tree Huggers are working hard to put you, me and everyone out of business. The more Chemical screw ups or contamination they find adds fuel to their fire. The more Yard Boy misapplying adds fuel to their fire.

HayBay
07-19-2011, 09:32 AM
I'm afraid if I were put in the same situation as you, I would be watching my business die instead of grow....

That sums it up.

We offer more than lawn services which is keeping us alive, but lawn services used to be lucrative for us until the ban.

Now the major Lawn Franchises are worth ZERO nobody will buy.

Lawn Services use 1% of Canadas 2,4-D usage, but the Canadian Cancer Society and David Suzuki says we are saving thousands of lives by banning its use
There are studies that show Cell Phone use causes Cancer, but the Cancer Soceity ignores that one. No precautionary principle applies there.

Its great when you guys post pictures of perfect lawns. Its like a dream.

Ric
07-19-2011, 10:03 AM
That sums it up.

We offer more than lawn services which is keeping us alive, but lawn services used to be lucrative for us until the ban.

Now the major Lawn Franchises are worth ZERO nobody will buy.

Lawn Services use 1% of Canadas 2,4-D usage, but the Canadian Cancer Society and David Suzuki says we are saving thousands of lives by banning its use
There are studies that show Cell Phone use causes Cancer, but the Cancer Soceity ignores that one. No precautionary principle applies there.

Its great when you guys post pictures of perfect lawns. Its like a dream.

Hay Bay

Maybe part of the reason we hate Canadians is the fact the Liberals are trying to turn us into Canada. This isn't the Political thread so I will stop here.