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RigglePLC
08-04-2011, 10:20 AM
Are esters or amines better on the tough weeds like spurge and oxalis in hot weather? Does it matter whether you are low volume or high volume? Nozzle type? Pressure? Sticker?

This needs a test.

Myself, 2 years ago, I felt an amine like three-way was slightly better than ester on spurge (85 degrees). I had an elderly lady that had so much spurge she agreed to let me test 4 different products on her front yard, rather than skipping the late summer treatment. I have often heard that the dicamba portion of 3-way is the main component that does the job on spurge.

n-green
08-04-2011, 12:22 PM
I have always avoided esters in the summer. I think 3-way amine just pisses spurge off. I bought a gal of Q4 and spot sprayed some lawns this week. The Sulfentrazone is supposed to work well on Spurge. I will let you know.

RigglePLC
08-04-2011, 05:50 PM
Sulfentrazone is sold as Dismiss when not mixed with other herbicides. The label lists spurge--HOWEVER--spurge is listed in a table of "Weeds controlled or suppressed".

OR SUPPRESSED? Does that mean not killed? Let us know what happens, OK?

n-green
08-08-2011, 08:05 AM
" Sulfentrazone provides post emergent weed control for common weed species in turfgrass such as spurge. Foliar contact of Sulfentrazone on emerged susceptible weeds results in rapid dessication and plant tissue death"
From the label. That being said, 5 DAT leaves are gray,crunchy and folded, stems are stiff with no sap. It may be the dicamba but I got tired of mixing 3 sprayers.

White Gardens
08-08-2011, 01:53 PM
I personally stay away from the esters during the summer. Even my supplier thinks that spring isn't ideal for an ester either and he says they use an ester only in the fall to late fall to really zap any hard to control weeds and get good control for the following season.

I've had great luck with Surge this past season, even on spurge. Overall having a mix that contains 2-4d, Dicamba, Sulfentrazone, and MCPP-p really keeps the weeds out of the lawns I treat.

During the middle of the summer if the temps are right, I'll mix in drive with Surge and I will finish off any patches of hard to controls that were left behind after the spring app.

But, one thing I do realize is that if I acquire a heavily infested lawn, it's either going to get a good ester in the fall, or I'll need to look at mixes containing only one or two chemicals in order not to exceed yearly rates on each listed above. I'm leaning towards a late ester app to minimize my first year apps, and to get a good start on the following season.

americanlawn
08-08-2011, 07:32 PM
Amines do not kill tough summer annual weeds like spurge and oxalis unless you spray very heavy and add heavy duty additives (which are harmful on cool season turf). How 'bout knotweed & purslane too? :walking:

Why not spot spray with an ester during the summer months when the hard-to-kill summer annuals are present? :confused: Why wait until they are ready to naturally die due to cold weather?

Amine herbicides are typically more harmful to cool season turf compared to esters during high temps. (read product labels) Esters are sold for the purpose of killing difficult weeds...nuf said, so why not use them when the target pest is present. :confused:

Question: Why use an ester in the fall when these difficult annual weeds will die with the first killing frost? Is this not a waste of product? Why not just use cheap 3-way amine in the fall?



Curious

dgw
08-08-2011, 07:44 PM
esters, sorry 3-way amines are good for second app spring weeds only (dock,dandy,thistle,easy stuff)

the trick is knowing if the lawn can take it


but we all know you know riggle:walking::walking::walking::walking::walking::walking:

americanlawn
08-08-2011, 08:22 PM
I'm not talkin' if the lawn can take it. I'm talkin' "if the weeds can take it".

2nd app ... what's that?

"Dock" -- which one? Curly, bur or what? Cuz both take a long time to keel over.

"Thistle" -- which ones? Cuz most don't die quickly regarding amines.

Nuther one is Rugle's plantain .. takes a few weeks for it to shell out -- nomatter what one uses....even esters. I swear that weed is made out of leather. :laugh:

Yep, riggle's a good friend -- just firing back with Q's. :waving:

esters, sorry 3-way amines are good for second app spring weeds only (dock,dandy,thistle,easy stuff)

the trick is knowing if the lawn can take it


but we all know you know riggle:walking::walking::walking::walking::walking::walking:

dgw
08-08-2011, 08:41 PM
oh sorry, i think in terms of cleveland. 2nd app is in may around here

either doc, any thistle and common or buck plaintain seem easy with 992 IMO , at least in spring


i meant the ester in summer with "if the lawn can take it" i meant health of lawn wise




i know you guys all know your stuff:drinkup::drinkup::drinkup::drinkup:



it was an answer to the OP, not questioning your post

dgw
08-08-2011, 08:44 PM
and i 100% agree with your "why wait till fall" thing


my customers showcase their lawns in the summer, and start their hibernation periods in the fall:laugh::laugh:

CHARLES CUE
08-08-2011, 09:50 PM
I use Easter product in the summer for tough weeds and brush.

My jug of chaser and crossbow says they are good to 85 deg

But i have never had a problem with 3 way amine eather

Charles Cue

RigglePLC
08-08-2011, 10:17 PM
See my T-Zone and Drive test post below. T-Zone (an ester) is ahead so far.

B-Easy
08-10-2011, 09:04 AM
Re. the Amine vs Ester discussion.... I noticed on the Horsepower label that the ingredient Trichloro is an amine while on the Crossbow label it is listed as an ester. I did not feel the Horsepower (used last season) did much when we used it on our late summer apps. Was it perhaps slower acting due to the amine factor or due to the drought conditions which began last summer? And what about spraying an ester in the heat of summer? I thought this was discouraged due to the volatility of the ester.

My head is beginning to spin.

pieperlc
08-10-2011, 01:03 PM
I've found horsepower to be slower but I attribute it to the lack of 2,4-d.
Posted via Mobile Device

RigglePLC
08-10-2011, 03:48 PM
On August 6, 2011 I tested Lesco Eliminate (amine), Gordon's T-Zone (ester) and both on some weeds in my neighbor's vacant lot (with his Ok). I used small patches about 3 feet diameter. Both solutions contained a squirt of Dawn detergent. Scored after 4 days as Excellent, Good, Fair, Poor and no effect.

T-Zone: Excellent on oxalis (fried), fair on spurge, good on dandelion, poor on ground ivy, and surprize, fair on crabgrass

Eliminate: Good on oxalis, poor on spurge, poor on ground ivy, no effect on crabgrass, no dandelions present

T-Zone plus Eliminate: Excellent on oxalis, fair on spurge, fair on crabgrass, fair on ground ivy, no dandelions present

Using T-Zone, I also treated a big poison ivy vine at my daughter's house. 7 feet high and 5 feet wide growing on a tall wooden fence. Plants seemed too mature for treatment. At 48 hours no effect, but at 4 days most of vine turned yellow. Upper, faster-growing parts twisted, wilted and collapsed.

White Gardens
08-10-2011, 06:25 PM
Re. the Amine vs Ester discussion.... I noticed on the Horsepower label that the ingredient Trichloro is an amine while on the Crossbow label it is listed as an ester. I did not feel the Horsepower (used last season) did much when we used it on our late summer apps. Was it perhaps slower acting due to the amine factor or due to the drought conditions which began last summer? And what about spraying an ester in the heat of summer? I thought this was discouraged due to the volatility of the ester.

My head is beginning to spin.

That's my thoughts exactly. From all my research and from University recommendations, an ester is way too volatile to use in the heat of the summer.

Is crossbow even rated for residential use? http://www.dowagro.com/usag/prod/003.htm

..

B-Easy
08-10-2011, 08:19 PM
That's my thoughts exactly. From all my research and from University recommendations, an ester is way too volatile to use in the heat of the summer.

Is crossbow even rated for residential use? http://www.dowagro.com/usag/prod/003.htm

..


Nope... we use it on an industrial site.

CHARLES CUE
08-10-2011, 08:31 PM
That's my thoughts exactly. From all my research and from University recommendations, an ester is way too volatile to use in the heat of the summer.

Is crossbow even rated for residential use? http://www.dowagro.com/usag/prod/003.htm

..

Crossbow the same Ingredients as Chaser

No it's not labeled for lawns

But it is Labeled for woody brush

The labels that i have read on esters list low violable ester

I have never had a problem spraying fence lines with brush on them and trees over head

I always start early in the cool part of the day

Charles Cue

Young Bros
08-10-2011, 10:27 PM
We use Surge (amine) in the summer, Speed Zone (ester) in the cool spring, & T-Zone (ester) in the cool fall. I have had problems in the past using Speed Zone when the temp climbed, not much wind, & high humidity. It volitized & curled flowers & trees up to 15'. It passed over flowers that are tough to kill. The customer was mad. Lucky it was at another company before we started ours. It did happen once since we started our company. Had to replace some plants. I thought it was cool enough, but I guess not. So now we only use ester before plants have green on them & after the cold starts to kill them.

cecropia11
11-10-2011, 11:19 PM
has anyone here used chaser turf herbicide on wild violets,or other broad-leaf weeds I have read the label and it calls for 1.5 dilution rate for wild violets which comes out to 2 OZ per gallon. has anyone else read the product label does that sound right, will the 2 OZ per gallon not harm grasses.

RigglePLC
11-11-2011, 09:27 PM
Chaser contains 2,4-d and triclopyr BEE both as the ester form. It should be fine on grass--but--weather is rather cold for treatment now.

Let us know what happens. Expect it to be slow.

DA Quality Lawn & YS
11-12-2011, 12:16 AM
I had a backpack with 2 gals of TZone mix, prepared 1.5 oz/1gal per K. It was leftover from October when I finished spot spraying. I took it out in the green space behind my home to empty it out for off-season, and sprayed apprx 2K sq ft of turf mostly dandelion and white clover. The dandelions were already turning red and going dormant. I am expecting that the TZone will still work on them, and that come next spring, they will not be back.

nik
11-22-2011, 05:55 PM
We have lots and lots of commercial vineyards that have taken over farm and forest ground out this way. Esters + grapes + hot weather = $$$$$ for the = vineyard owner. Folks using esters in the summer often end up having to pay for dead/injured vines. Most of the vineyards are out in by people with more money than most 3rd world countries and are not shy about turning their lawyers loose to recoup losses.

There are those that are very good at using esters in hot weather with no problem. I'm too chicken to even think about it.

There are some newer phenoxys coming out that are supposed to be very non-volatile in hot weather.