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2brothersyardcare
08-04-2011, 07:40 PM
what is so bad about using stone dust for base?

DVS Hardscaper
08-04-2011, 08:09 PM
It does not comPact as tight as crusher run.

And is a breeding ground for effloresence (sp)


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zedosix
08-04-2011, 09:45 PM
what is so bad about using stone dust for base?

Just don't use it, holds water, and can deteriorate concrete pavers after a while. Many other reasons that have been discussed here numerous times in the past.

TomG
08-04-2011, 10:00 PM
Holds water is the main problem. If you use it under most manufactures brick it will void their warranty on the brick because most manufactures say the base has to be prepped to ICPI standards and stone dust is a big no, no with ICPI. And many other reasons like the others have said...

DVS Hardscaper
08-04-2011, 10:24 PM
Cept Tom, we Lawnsite Gold Star members try not use use the word "brick" when referring to pavers :) You build walls with brick, and pavements with pavers :)


Ok, so you may have a few jobs where you used stone dust, right? No need to lose any sleep. We did our first paver install 15 years and 4 months ago. I think we used stone dust for our bases for at least the 1st year, maybe the 2nd year as well. Now, we DO have geo-textile fabric under even OUR FIRST paver job, and all the jobs that have followed. And no one has called and said their patios have vanished into the earth! Our 2nd job was done for personal friends of mine, whom I am still in contact with to this day, their patio has stone dust for a base, and all is well.

zedosix
08-04-2011, 10:32 PM
Most guys in this region still use stone dust. I buy my sand a tri-axle at a time, cost me somewhere in the range of 800 dollars. Stone dust is 300, here lies the main reason people don't want to know why they shouldn't use it.

2brothersyardcare
08-05-2011, 10:40 AM
that makes since my buddy did clay pavers years ago and said that stone dust was all they used so i was going to ask why its bad.

DVS Hardscaper
08-05-2011, 10:44 AM
Zero - $800 for sand???? Whoo we that's alot!
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2brothersyardcare
08-05-2011, 02:09 PM
so the stone dust messes up the top of the concrete paver

PatriotLandscape
08-05-2011, 02:13 PM
It holds water which releases efflorescence in the pavers. Yes it messes up the top of the paver.
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DVS Hardscaper
08-05-2011, 03:13 PM
Only thing is, does anyone here REALLY know if dust "HOLDS WATER"??

Or were you/we just told that so we're running with it?

If you think about it, Crusher Run is nothing other than larger aggregate all the way down to dust. In most cases, a 50/50 mix. So with that said, wouldn't crusher run "hold water"???


But what I think Zedo is talking bout is stone dust for the joints. But Scagrider is talking bout bases. You know 'ol Zedo, he gets confused :)


Here is a picture of CR6. Pretty good mix of dust and larger aggregates.

In terms of an 5 to 8 inch aggregate base, my mentality does not see this holding any less water than stone dust alone......


http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee405/AndrewHardscape/StructuralCompaction2.jpg

zedosix
08-05-2011, 03:19 PM
Zero - $800 for sand???? Whoo we that's alot!
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Sure is, I think I'll go back to using stone dust. :) Stone dust can disentergrate the pavers starting from the bottom going upwards. I've seen it on older walkway removals.

2brothersyardcare
08-06-2011, 09:19 AM
Only thing is, does anyone here REALLY know if dust "HOLDS WATER"??

Or were you/we just told that so we're running with it?

If you think about it, Crusher Run is nothing other than larger aggregate all the way down to dust. In most cases, a 50/50 mix. So with that said, wouldn't crusher run "hold water"???


But what I think Zedo is talking bout is stone dust for the joints. But Scagrider is talking bout bases. You know 'ol Zedo, he gets confused :)


Here is a picture of CR6. Pretty good mix of dust and larger aggregates.

In terms of an 5 to 8 inch aggregate base, my mentality does not see this holding any less water than stone dust alone......


http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee405/AndrewHardscape/StructuralCompaction2.jpg

i agree if dust is in agitate shouldent that hold water that was my problem

zedosix
08-06-2011, 11:32 AM
Wow I hope your work is better than your spelling!

2brothersyardcare
08-06-2011, 03:56 PM
Wow I hope your work is better than your spelling!

it is i have a secretary for a reason!

jonesy5149
08-06-2011, 04:28 PM
Only thing is, does anyone here REALLY know if dust "HOLDS WATER"??
REALLY.................As for drainage, stone dust's powdery nature inhibits drainage. It absorbs moisture, holds on to it and drains very slowly. If freezing temperatures are present while the stone dust is still moist, the base will move (frost heaves). Crusher run,Crushed rock on the other hand, drains much better. The smallest particles, called fines, are more granular (not powdery). This, combined with the varying sizes of crushed stone, make a strong compacted base with enough voids to let water pass through more easily.
So why is stone dust still used as the base and/or setting bed in so many paver projects? First, stone dust is mostly used in smaller jobs, around the home and privately owned businesses. Large commercial jobs and government-associated jobs will have strict codes/standards to follow. You won't find stone dust as the base for asphalt highways, parking lots and driveways (or, at least, you shouldn't). The same is true for large commercial and government paver jobs. Some form of "aggregate base" will be used because testing and long-term experience has shown it to be the strongest, most reliable material in those applications.

Another reason stone dust is still popular is due to lack of education directing smaller contractors and homeowners to a better alternative and CHEAP...
Mixed with compost, it has created soils so rich they are "capable of producing cabbages the size of footballs, onions bigger than coconuts and gooseberries as big as plums." (So, if you want to keep your walkway from exploding or you wish to harvest carrots the size of a man's arm from your patio...by all means, use stone dust.)

DVS Hardscaper
08-06-2011, 04:55 PM
Jonesy,

I'm not so sure I can agree with your comment that stone dust is more powdery.

In the area where I am located and work, the dust in the crusher run is the same dust that we would buy as Stone Dust, or if anything in my opinion may be more powdery than stone dust.

I'm a firm believer in using crusher run and I believe Stone Dust has no place being involved in any paver projects. But, some of the claims against stone dust may be a little far fetched.

And Zedo had mentioned that he saw pavers desinigrate from stone dust. To me that sounds like a paver manufacturing flaw, as stone dust is mined the same as crusher run. From the same quarry. Same veins. Same type of rock.



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jonesy5149
08-06-2011, 05:59 PM
What is the frost like were you live DVS

DVS Hardscaper
08-06-2011, 07:06 PM
What is the frost like were you live DVS


What's the frost like?

It's like fresh baked chocolate chip cookies.

I dunno, I'm not sure how to answer that! We do have frost.


In terms of why NOT to use stone dust as a base - the biggest, most compelling FACT is that sone dust does not achieve as dense compaction as crusher run does. And this is why crusher run is typically used under roadways, whether it's a Federal Intersate or a backwoods country road.


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jonesy5149
08-06-2011, 10:12 PM
What is the frost like were you live DVS
I dunno, I'm not sure how to answer that! We do have frost.
Thats WEIRD you contradict your self.
But i like the cookies:laugh:

nepatsfan
08-06-2011, 10:27 PM
crusher run is also called 3/4 minus around here meaning three quarter stone all the way down to dust....stone dust. For years we used stone dust for bases and never really had issues. It is how I was taught. we always use crusher run with an inch of bedding sand for warranty reasons now but every time I go to a contractor seminar someone always pipes up that loves stone dust and has been using it since he built columbus' patio in 1492 and never had an issue.

Its just easier to conform....

2brothersyardcare
08-07-2011, 12:55 AM
what is stone dust used for then?

nepatsfan
08-07-2011, 06:51 AM
what is stone dust used for then?

Good question.....never seen it used for anything but patios and walkway bases.

shovelracer
08-07-2011, 07:20 AM
Stone dust is generally a waste product of quarry manufacturing. Like all good businesses quarries figured out how to minimize waste. They sell it cheap. In reality if you are the front buyer you are only paying for labor and equipment time to get that garbage into your truck and out of there. Now your nursery charging $30 a yard is just criminal.

To go with what Zedo was saying: I'm not sure if it holds water or attracks water, or does not drain the same, but I pulled up a 4 year old walkway last summer. The contractor used dust as the base. The pavers bottom 1/3rd was completely deteriorated to the point where it looked worse than any top surface of any paver of any age I've ever seen.

DVS Hardscaper
08-07-2011, 08:26 AM
what is stone dust used for then?

Stone dust is great for water and sewer line installation. Used for packing around the pipe as it has no angular pieces that can Pierce a hole in a pipe.

Also stone dust is used sometimes for the base for natural stone walls, drylaid.

And there are even finer grades of dust (it has a different name) used for manufacturing of retaining wall block, and masonry wall block.
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zedosix
08-07-2011, 09:51 AM
Stone dust is generally a waste product of quarry manufacturing. Like all good businesses quarries figured out how to minimize waste. They sell it cheap. In reality if you are the front buyer you are only paying for labor and equipment time to get that garbage into your truck and out of there. Now your nursery charging $30 a yard is just criminal.

To go with what Zedo was saying: I'm not sure if it holds water or attracks water, or does not drain the same, but I pulled up a 4 year old walkway last summer. The contractor used dust as the base. The pavers bottom 1/3rd was completely deteriorated to the point where it looked worse than any top surface of any paver of any age I've ever seen.

Exactly - stone dust is a waste product and it contains huge amounts of powderey fine particles that literally dissapear off the pile when its windy. So we take this powder and use it under our base, add some water to it and try to imagine the goopy mess it leaves behind. This is not good for paver installation, it will hold water and it will heave with frost each spring. DVS it isn't a brick issue its the base that is the issue. I've been in the business for many years and have come across this more than a few times where the base of the brick is rotted. I've been using sand base since I took the icpi course in 96' and havn't seen any issues with it yet. Ok maybe a few more ants than normal! :)

DVS Hardscaper
08-07-2011, 10:52 AM
I believe different markets will have variation in aggregate.

We have nice aggregate in one county, 100% aggregate.

We worked in another county and the crusher run there had a more soiley mix. And was way different than the nice stuff we're used to.


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2brothersyardcare
08-07-2011, 11:12 AM
we use it for dry laid natal stone alot

scagrider22
08-07-2011, 12:09 PM
I am not saying anyone is wrong or right, I'm just going off of what Ive seen. I have removed close to 100 patios and every single one of them had what we call here in Ohio crushed limestone (I'm assuming that's what your calling stone dust) I have never seen one paver deteriorate. Almost every hardscaper here uses it with little to no issues. This year I hired a concrete guy and I have been poring footers under almost everything so I'm not using any sand or crushed, It cost more up front but in the end it works out about the same because of time saved and it should hold up much better.

DVS Hardscaper
08-07-2011, 01:48 PM
.....I have removed close to 100 patios and every single one of them had what we call here in Ohio crushed limestone (I'm assuming that's what your calling stone dust) I have never seen one paver deteriorate.....




100 PATIOS?????? How and why ???

I've been in dis bidniz for 15 years, and I can count on 2 hands how many we've removed/redone.

And yeah, I ain't callin no one a liar, but I'm not buying into the "stone dust ate the paver" stuff!



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scagrider22
08-07-2011, 02:24 PM
100 PATIOS?????? How and why ???

I've been in dis bidniz for 15 years, and I can count on 2 hands how many we've removed/redone.

And yeah, I ain't callin no one a liar, but I'm not buying into the "stone dust ate the paver" stuff!



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Ive also been doing this for 15 years, I dont know exactly how many Ive taken out, it may not be that many but its been a lot, mostly patios that were made of old clay brick and rail road ties from the 70s and 80s. As far as paver patios I have probably only removed about 10. I also do not buy the stone dust ate the paver issue. Im not saying it doesn't happen but almost every patio Ive ever seen was on stone dust. The last patio I removed was about a month ago, it was an 8 year old Unilock paver patio, the only base it had was about 6-8" of stone dust and it was still level and in good shape. Here is a picture of the old patio and the new one.

shovelracer
08-07-2011, 06:27 PM
I like the foot rest a lot. I worry about the unsupported counter overhang though.

For the record though I want to say that I do not believe that the stone dust itself is harmful to the pavers. Instead I feel that the use of dust creates a situation of higher moisture levels under the paver surface. Added with the heavy freeze thaw cycles around here, can create an environment that is not kind to concrete. That said, the walk I mentioned was also heavily salted and the joints were play sand. The paver surface was totally fine.

nepatsfan
08-07-2011, 07:15 PM
Is everyone in agreement that stone dust is in crusher run? It definitely is here....at least 50% and probably more. If you put a smaller screen and get all the fines and dust you get stone dust. I understand that there is the issue of the stone dust touching the paver...(i dont buy it either) but in any event...as far as frost goes I'm not sure you will have major issues any more than crusher run. That being said, I do know that crusher run or 3/4 minus as we call it does compact better its all we use, plus 1 inch of bedding sand....... now

scagrider22
08-07-2011, 07:43 PM
I like the foot rest a lot. I worry about the unsupported counter overhang though.

For the record though I want to say that I do not believe that the stone dust itself is harmful to the pavers. Instead I feel that the use of dust creates a situation of higher moisture levels under the paver surface. Added with the heavy freeze thaw cycles around here, can create an environment that is not kind to concrete. That said, the walk I mentioned was also heavily salted and the joints were play sand. The paver surface was totally fine.

I installed 4 pieces of 1/4" flat stock to support the overhang.

xtreem3d
08-07-2011, 08:03 PM
100 PATIOS?????? How and why ???

I've been in dis bidniz for 15 years, and I can count on 2 hands how many we've removed/redone.

And yeah, I ain't callin no one a liar, but I'm not buying into the "stone dust ate the paver" stuff!



.

If stone dust is just smaller bits of 3/4 minus wouldn't every wall built on that base (providing you don't use sand on top of rock) rot away? ................ i don't think they do either
Steve

zedosix
08-07-2011, 08:26 PM
DVS give me your home address and I'll send ya the next brick I see damaged then you can decide how it became this way. :)

scagrider22
08-07-2011, 08:31 PM
DVS give me your home address and I'll send ya the next brick I see damaged then you can decide how it became this way. :)

In your area is it limestone dust? Thats what we have in Ohio and Ive never seen that happen.

zedosix
08-07-2011, 09:19 PM
In your area is it limestone dust? Thats what we have in Ohio and Ive never seen that happen.

yes its limestone dust

DVS Hardscaper
08-07-2011, 09:41 PM
yes its limestone dust


I'm thinkin the paver manufacturer short cut the material ingredients. No density rating. So the pavers became sponges, absorbed moisture, froze, expanded and popped.



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DVS Hardscaper
08-07-2011, 10:02 PM
Is everyone in agreement that stone dust is in crusher run? It definitely is here....at least 50% and probably more. If you put a smaller screen and get all the fines and dust you get stone dust. I understand that there is the issue of the stone dust touching the paver...(i dont buy it either) but in any event...as far as frost goes I'm not sure you will have major issues any more than crusher run.



Thats pretty much along with my thoughts that I stated earlier.

I have a small pile of crusher run in my driveway, and I was out there earlier today studying it! Yep, it has a nice 50/50 mix of fines and largers. I can't see it holding any less water then dust. If anyone would have drove by and saw me staring at the pile, they would have thought I was on some crazy drugs :dizzy:



But maybe someone here can do an experiment? :laugh: Go buy some dust and some crusher run. Weigh it. Wet it down with equal gallons of water. Let it sit for 1 hr. then go have it weighed, and see which one weighs more? :laugh:

This is what gets me about ICPI and some of the crap they instill in people's minds. And I remember Paver Pete making many mentions of how he writes alotta specs for ICPI. He has an accounting degree from UMD, not an engineering degree from VA Tech (go hokies). The reason I mention ICPI is 2 folks in this thread are the ones that mentioned stone dust holding water, one of them is always referencing ICPI in many of his post here, and I think the other once mentioned he teaches either (or both) ICPI courses / NCMA courses.

Like I said, in our earlier days we used stone dust. No problems that I know of. None, zilch. And to this day, I do tell my prospective clients to beware of contractors that do use dust instead on crusher run, as part of my sales presentation. I go as far as talking about compaction differences between the two. But I think when ICPI was making a list of reasons of why no to use it, they got a little carried away......





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zedosix
08-07-2011, 10:08 PM
Stone dust will hold the water and not allow proper drainage. This is the main reason why not to use it. I don't understand why all the doubt about it.

DVS Hardscaper
08-08-2011, 10:59 AM
Stone dust will hold the water and not allow proper drainage. This is the main reason why not to use it. I don't understand why all the doubt about it.

Because crusher run is nothin more than stone dust with largers. While dust will hold water, I bet it holds no more than a good mix of crusher run.

And where is this water coming from?

.


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Stillwater
08-08-2011, 01:51 PM
If i restore a vintage clay paver walk using historically correct brick pavers I use stone dust, if I remove a vintage clay brick patio or walkway of any historical value for any building or renovation for later re-installation I use stone dust. If we are called to restore a home to its original historical significance, I often only have vintage photos of old paver work and stone work to work from. I will use stone dust.....

zedosix
08-08-2011, 05:47 PM
Because crusher run is nothin more than stone dust with largers. While dust will hold water, I bet it holds no more than a good mix of crusher run.

And where is this water coming from?



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Posted via Mobile Device

Stone dust has no "largers" it is dust plain and simple. Water comes from the sky and the ground last time I checked.

amscapes03
08-08-2011, 06:14 PM
Pavers deteriorating from the bottom up? I'll put my money on poly-sand improperly installed (if at all), followed by years of the customer using straight salt or an ice melt containing a lot of salt. Been using stone dust for over 15 years without any problems. I will use sand (begrudgingly) when paver/warranty BS comes into play.

DVS Hardscaper
08-08-2011, 06:58 PM
Stone dust has no "largers" it is dust plain and simple. Water comes from the sky and the ground last time I checked.


Comedian you are!

Because about a month ago you reminded me that patios have slope for water run off :)


Well, if crusher run drained water, we would not need 3/4" stone behind retaining walls. :). Your crusher run in Canada must be 65% largers and 35% dust!

Perhaps a university can conduct a study for us.

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nepatsfan
08-08-2011, 07:07 PM
Pavers deteriorating from the bottom up? I'll put my money on poly-sand improperly installed (if at all), followed by years of the customer using straight salt or an ice melt containing a lot of salt. Been using stone dust for over 15 years without any problems. I will use sand (begrudgingly) when paver/warranty BS comes into play.

I dont know if it is a regional thing, but 10-15 years ago it seemed like EVERYONE used stone dust....maybe 5 years ago you saw a lot more guys using bedding sand and now i bet it is 4 to 1 sand to stone dust. I find it a lot easier to lay the pavers on stone dust......but like I said, we dont do it anymore.

As far as price goes....we pay about the same for bedding sand or stone dust. 19 vs 17 so it is a minor difference.

zedosix
08-08-2011, 08:19 PM
Comedian you are!

Because about a month ago you reminded me that patios have slope for water run off :)


Well, if crusher run drained water, we would not need 3/4" stone behind retaining walls. :). Your crusher run in Canada must be 65% largers and 35% dust!

Perhaps a university can conduct a study for us.

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Posted via Mobile Device

Just keep using stone dust Andrew, makes no difference to me. But for a guy who likes to remind people about using correct install methods your comments come as a bit of a surprise.

Stillwater
08-09-2011, 10:16 AM
your implying if you use stone dust in any hardscape you installed wrong.....Statements like this can't be taken seriously.....

DVS Hardscaper
08-09-2011, 11:09 AM
Just keep using stone dust Andrew, makes no difference to me. But for a guy who likes to remind people about using correct install methods your comments come as a bit of a surprise.

See Andy buddy, you're not reading at all. You're writing comments about things that i clearly addressed in black and white. But maybe you was to bizy lookin for grammer and spellin misstakes to reAd what i rote :)

We do not use stone dust and I clearly stated that at Least once.

My point I'm making is that you can't always argue experience. There are people here that do use stone dust and have no problems using it. one guy even posted A picture.

Folks mentioned dust holds water. I agree.

But I bet you it holds no more water than crusher run. And to cover my bases, allow me to say "the crusher run that we use in our market".
And if it does hold more water, I bet you a gift certificate to any national restaurant, that it's under 15%.

My while point here is how easily we as humans are influenced. Someone tells us something or we read it somewhere and we run with it, forgetting about what we've observed in the field for the last 10 years. Stone dust holds water! Well so does crusher run!! It's not a drainge aggregate!!

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zedosix
08-09-2011, 03:57 PM
your implying if you use stone dust in any hardscape you installed wrong.....Statements like this can't be taken seriously.....

I am? Please show me where I said that.

zedosix
08-09-2011, 04:01 PM
Pavers deteriorating from the bottom up? I'll put my money on poly-sand improperly installed (if at all), followed by years of the customer using straight salt or an ice melt containing a lot of salt. Been using stone dust for over 15 years without any problems. I will use sand (begrudgingly) when paver/warranty BS comes into play.

The pavers in question were installed long before there was ever any poly sand.

SVA_Concrete
08-09-2011, 06:24 PM
See Andy buddy, you're not reading at all. You're writing comments about things that i clearly addressed in black and white. But maybe you was to bizy lookin for grammer and spellin misstakes to reAd what i rote :)

We do not use stone dust and I clearly stated that at Least once.

My point I'm making is that you can't always argue experience. There are people here that do use stone dust and have no problems using it. one guy even posted A picture.

Folks mentioned dust holds water. I agree.

But I bet you it holds no more water than crusher run. And to cover my bases, allow me to say "the crusher run that we use in our market".
And if it does hold more water, I bet you a gift certificate to any national restaurant, that it's under 15%.

My while point here is how easily we as humans are influenced. Someone tells us something or we read it somewhere and we run with it, forgetting about what we've observed in the field for the last 10 years. Stone dust holds water! Well so does crusher run!! It's not a drainge aggregate!!

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Posted via Mobile Device

the amount of water stone dust or "crusher run" will hold is dependent on the density of compaction. I will give you that stone dust has more surface areas than crusher run, there by holding more water.

and as far as deterioration? could that be a geographical thing depending on if you use lime stone dust or granite stone dust?

zedosix
08-09-2011, 08:18 PM
up here its limestone dust, further west and east its granite.

Stillwater
08-10-2011, 12:37 AM
I am? Please show me where I said that.

Post # 48 where you give Andrew the jazz. If you believe my perception is wrong then just clarify....not a big deal

DVS Hardscaper
08-10-2011, 09:49 PM
the amount of water stone dust or "crusher run" will hold is dependent on the density of compaction. I will give you that stone dust has more surface areas than crusher run, there by holding more water.



SVA, can you please explain how stone dust has more surface area than crusher run? I'm not sure what that means.



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zedosix
08-10-2011, 10:02 PM
I would suggest he means that it has less voids so therefore holds more water.

tadpole
08-10-2011, 10:57 PM
If I might interject my dime's worth.

SVA, can you please explain how stone dust has more surface area than crusher run? I'm not sure what that means.,

I believe that what he is saying is that stone dust has a higher SSA (Specific Surface Area) than crusher run because the particles are smaller.

I would suggest he means that it has less voids so therefore holds more water.

Actually because the voids are smaller, it will hold less water and also have a lower percolation rate increasing its impermeability resulting in greater run-off.

That's worth at least 10 cents.:):)

zedosix
08-10-2011, 11:12 PM
If I might interject my dime's worth.



I believe that what he is saying is that stone dust has a higher SSA (Specific Surface Area) than crusher run because the particles are smaller.



Actually because the voids are smaller, it will hold less water and also have a lower percolation rate increasing its impermeability resulting in greater run-off.

That's worth at least 10 cents.:):)

Stone dust holds water and becomes saturated during spring thaw, this is why we use a coarse grain sand. Now being from florida I can see how you would understand this. :laugh:

Stillwater
08-10-2011, 11:18 PM
That's worth at least 10 cents.:):)



15 cents.............

DVS Hardscaper
08-11-2011, 06:17 AM
If I might interject my dime's worth.



I believe that what he is saying is that stone dust has a higher SSA (Specific Surface Area) than crusher run because the particles are smaller.



Actually because the voids are smaller, it will hold less water and also have a lower percolation rate increasing its impermeability resulting in greater run-off.

That's worth at least 10 cents.:):)


And....we're promoting you to 'Silver Member' :weightlifter:

,

DVS Hardscaper
08-11-2011, 06:23 AM
And.....I've been takin pictures of crusher run!

I'll upload them in the next 9 days. (vacation season is over, I'm busy, the phone's ringing again) Don't no one go nowhere!



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2brothersyardcare
08-11-2011, 09:56 AM
the only reason i could think of is that they want us to use a cheaper product aka crusher run or 3/4 qp or agragite or what ever you want to call it. i thought that was cheaper and the dealers would make more cash thus causing them to use that instead of dust

DVS Hardscaper
08-11-2011, 08:55 PM
the only reason i could think of is that they want us to use a cheaper product aka crusher run or 3/4 qp or agragite or what ever you want to call it. i thought that was cheaper and the dealers would make more cash thus causing them to use that instead of dust


Crusher Run is definitely the correct material to use. My whole point is it seems some organizations are reaching a little high when it came down to finding claims as to why not to use stone dust. Sometimes I feel as if engineers are others allied to the industry view us contractors as stupid. This past Jan I was at a paver seminar and it seemed like the speaker was talking to the people in attendance as if we dumb and couldnt process information.


Oh well, it is what it is.


I have also been doing some thinking about a practice, not aggregate related, yet it is patio related, that I myself do and that I know others here do. And after doing some reseach and thinking about it.....I'm not so sure I completely agree with the method anymore. I'll wait till someone brings it up sometime!

zedosix
08-11-2011, 09:09 PM
would that be a raised patio or ground level. Or either one.

SVA_Concrete
08-13-2011, 12:40 PM
I would suggest he means that it has less voids so therefore holds more water.

yes that is what i meant. i may not be 100% correct. i am basing this on my observations.

as we all know, small voids hold water, large voids drain water. 21A as we call it in Virginia has less voids than stone dust and should hold more water in theory.

in response to tadpole.....

not all water comes in the form of rainfall. much of our water comes from the ground. capillary action will fill stone dust -- or 21a for that matter-- full of water

SVA_Concrete
08-13-2011, 12:41 PM
And.....I've been takin pictures of crusher run!

I'll upload them in the next 9 days. (vacation season is over, I'm busy, the phone's ringing again) Don't no one go nowhere!



.

i'm on the edge of my seat.....

Cam.at.Heritage
08-19-2011, 08:43 PM
Dam that must be the biggest tri-axle ever for 800 in sand.

xtreem3d
08-20-2011, 07:29 AM
Just a FWIW here is a response from Belgard
Steve-

This in response to your question about Stone Dust vs. a sand bed for concrete pavers, since I don’t have any experience with “Stone Dust”, this is in my opinion, the ICPI recommends using ½” to 1 ½” of a construction grade sand to allow the water to migrate through. Stone dust could absorb the water and during freeze thaw months, expand and contract, this could start to deteriorate the paver over time.

Hope this helps,

Thanks,

Craig



CRAIG FOLKERS

Belgard Territory Manager

913-207-7037

Craig.Folkers@OldcastleAPG.com

DVS Hardscaper
08-20-2011, 09:14 AM
Just a FWIW here is a response from Belgard
Steve-

This in response to your question about Stone Dust vs. a sand bed for concrete pavers, since I don’t have any experience with “Stone Dust”, this is in my opinion, the ICPI recommends using ½” to 1 ½” of a construction grade sand to allow the water to migrate through. Stone dust could absorb the water and during freeze thaw months, expand and contract, this could start to deteriorate the paver over time.

Hope this helps,

Thanks,

Craig



CRAIG FOLKERS

Belgard Territory Manager

913-207-7037

Craig.Folkers@OldcastleAPG.com


Without a doubt it "could" hold water.

In our area, the crusher run is compsed in a way that I'm certain it holds equal amounts to stone dust.

But the idea is as with any pavement - you pitch it so water sheets away.

TomG
08-20-2011, 02:31 PM
Limestone screenings and stone dust contain many particles smaller than the number 200 sieve. Moreover, the larger particles are flat and elongated which makes them difficult to compact completely and easy to break under construction equipment and vehicular loads. They are not symmetrical like those in concrete sand. Concrete sand offers a more stable and drainable bedding material.

DVS Hardscaper
08-21-2011, 10:01 PM
Here are some pictures of crusher run.

Crusher Run (CR8) in a pile.
Crusher Run (CR8) in the bucket.
Crusher Run (CR8) compacted.

As you can see this crusher run contains at least, AT LEAST 50% fines. I'd go out on a limb and venture to guess it has at least 65% fines.



Take a look at these picture and tell me how this crusher run will hold substancially less water than stone dust. As.......Stone dust is a primary part of Crusher Run!!

While the largers may fill more area, it's not enough to really justify the claims that stone dust will hold more water.

I do not disagree that stone dust will hold more water.

But I do not believe the difference of water retention between the two is even worth attempting to compare.

zedosix
08-21-2011, 10:06 PM
Why are we comparing stone dust to granular A, the comparison should be made to coarse grain sand. I agree completely with Toms statement.